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Thread: Confirmed: US citizen among those killed in Gaza flotilla raid

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by John Taylor View Post
    The bulldozer was supposed to stop?
    Yea, murder is USUALLY considered wrong. I understand that you allow for a couple of exceptions though, like pesky young women.

    Who needs them when you have pressing business like homes to mow under?

    I recommend you google "consistency" and give it a think.
    Last edited by constituent; 06-03-2010 at 10:41 AM.



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  3. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by catdd View Post
    "US citizen among those killed in Gaza flotilla raid "

    They just better be glad it wasn't Miduras because, I swear to God, there would have been serious retribution.
    If he tries to stop a lawfully imposed blockade of a belligerent power, as was the case here between Egypt, Israel, and their blockade of Gaza, and he tries to use force to break it, he is placing himself outside the protection of our constitution and our laws.
    The evils of the protecting-duty, may undoubtedly be graduated by compromises, like those of every other species of tyranny, but the folly of letting in some tyranny has in all ages been fatal to liberty. A succession of wedges, though apparently small, finally splits the strongest timber. ~John Taylor of Caroline, Tyranny Unmasked

    We have four boxes with which to defend our freedom: the soap box, the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box. ~Congressman Larry McDonald.



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  5. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by constituent View Post
    Yea, murder is USUALLY considered wrong. I understand that you allow for a couple of exceptions though, like pesky young women. Who needs them when you have homes to mow under?
    Murder requires INTENT pal. She thought the bulldozer would stop, the bulldozer opperator assumed she was a reasonable person and would get out of the way of a hundred ton earth moving piece of equipment.
    The evils of the protecting-duty, may undoubtedly be graduated by compromises, like those of every other species of tyranny, but the folly of letting in some tyranny has in all ages been fatal to liberty. A succession of wedges, though apparently small, finally splits the strongest timber. ~John Taylor of Caroline, Tyranny Unmasked

    We have four boxes with which to defend our freedom: the soap box, the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box. ~Congressman Larry McDonald.

  6. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by John Taylor View Post
    Murder requires INTENT pal.

    I'm no pal of yours John. Let's just get that out in the open. k?thnx

    When you run someone over with a bulldozer, the intent is clearly murder.

    Nice try though at defending the indefensible! I'll give you bonus points for chutzpah!

    Anyway, headed out the door. Enjoy your afternoon.

  7. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by constituent View Post
    I'm no pal of yours John. Let's just get that out in the open. k?thnx

    When you run someone over with a bulldozer, the intent is clearly murder.

    Nice try though at defending the indefensible! I'll give you bonus points for chutzpah!
    In agreement with you, consti'.

    Perhaps if I run at you with a knife drawn and held steady, and happen to stab you, it becomes your fault entirely since you did not get out of the way.

    I don't think we should have done anything on a Governmental level in response to the incident, but pretending that the bulldozer operator bears zero responsibility is silly.
    Genuine, willful, aggressive ignorance is the one sure way to tick me off. I wish I could say you were trolling. I know better, and it's just sad.

  8. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by John Taylor View Post
    If he tries to stop a lawfully imposed blockade of a belligerent power, as was the case here between Egypt, Israel, and their blockade of Gaza, and he tries to use force to break it, he is placing himself outside the protection of our constitution and our laws.
    I don't give a $#@! what you say, I'm telling you there would have been retribution.
    "Molon Labe"

  9. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Baptist View Post
    I don't think that the U.S. government should have done anything over the Corrie death. Give me a break. If I decide to pack my bags tomorrow and head to Sudan to help save the black Christians from being attacked by the Arab Muslims, and I get killed in the process, should the U.S. government make a deal out of it by condemning the government of Sudan who is paying for these Arab headhunters? No. Of course not. It is my own fault.

    You play with fire and you get burned. Ron Paul has stated that the U.S. government should be non-interventionist, but that U.S. citizens can do whatever they want to do (and he used going over to fight WWI as an example). However, Ron Paul said that if a U.S. citizen chooses intervention (like the hypothetical soldier going to fight against Germany in WWI, or the real case scenario of Corrie), and they get into trouble, it is not the job of the U.S. government to bail them out. You suffer the consequences of your own mistake.

    That said, I believe that the U.S. government should do something because this was done in international waters. Had it been done in Israel's waters, well, Israel can do whatever the heck it wants in its own waters. But because this was in international waters I believe the U.S. should raise a stink about it.

    http://abcnews.go.com/WN/Media/ameri...ry?id=10814848

    God forbid that we should be able to live in a peaceful world where we can travel and enjoy life. What if Christians were to promote a peaceful world?

    Rachel Corrie is simply another statistic for central bankers.
    Much of the world's problems will go away when we finally end the rein of central banks.

  10. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by constituent View Post
    I'm no pal of yours John. Let's just get that out in the open. k?thnx

    When you run someone over with a bulldozer, the intent is clearly murder.

    Nice try though at defending the indefensible! I'll give you bonus points for chutzpah!

    Anyway, headed out the door. Enjoy your afternoon.
    You're damned right we're not pals. I have no interest in being lumped together with someone who supports people who advocate genocide.

    Merely because someone is run over does not establish Mens Rea, or criminal intent to commit a crime. Read a book on Criminal Law. I advise this one, it was the one I used in school.
    The evils of the protecting-duty, may undoubtedly be graduated by compromises, like those of every other species of tyranny, but the folly of letting in some tyranny has in all ages been fatal to liberty. A succession of wedges, though apparently small, finally splits the strongest timber. ~John Taylor of Caroline, Tyranny Unmasked

    We have four boxes with which to defend our freedom: the soap box, the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box. ~Congressman Larry McDonald.

  11. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by John Taylor View Post
    Yeah, now you're starting to catch on. Israel and Egypt are AT WAR with GAZA!!!!

    Got it, that's WHY Egypt and Israel have a blockade in place.
    Acts of war don't remain one-sided. One thing (act of war) leads to another (act of war). Got it? Nice little mess this act of war has spawned, eh?
    Last edited by tpreitzel; 06-03-2010 at 11:11 AM.
    Truth Drives Me

  12. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by catdd View Post
    I don't give a $#@! what you say, I'm telling you there would have been retribution.
    The law governs. We live, or ought to live, under the rule of law---and maritime international law allows for blockades of belligerents. Gaza is a belligerent under blockade from both Egypt and Israel, those are the facts, even if you want to shut your eyes and run around like Chicken Little.
    The evils of the protecting-duty, may undoubtedly be graduated by compromises, like those of every other species of tyranny, but the folly of letting in some tyranny has in all ages been fatal to liberty. A succession of wedges, though apparently small, finally splits the strongest timber. ~John Taylor of Caroline, Tyranny Unmasked

    We have four boxes with which to defend our freedom: the soap box, the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box. ~Congressman Larry McDonald.



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  14. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by John Taylor View Post
    If he tries to stop a lawfully imposed blockade of a belligerent power, as was the case here between Egypt, Israel, and their blockade of Gaza, and he tries to use force to break it, he is placing himself outside the protection of our constitution and our laws.
    belligerent power? The all power nation of Gaza? The blockade violates natural law and is unhuman and just another violation by Israel excused by people like you. Oh and since you LOVE lists so much:

    Question: Which country alone in the Middle East has nuclear weapons?

    Answer: Israel.


    Question: Which country in the Middle East refuses to sign the nuclear non-proliferation treaty and bars international inspections? ?

    Answer: Israel.

    Question: Which country in the Middle East seized the sovereign territory of other nations by military force and continues to occupy it in defiance of United Nations Security Council resolutions?

    Answer: Israel.

    Question: Which country in the Middle East routinely violates the international borders of another sovereign state with warplanes and artillery and naval gunfire?

    Answer: Israel.

    Question: What American ally in the Middle East has for years sent assassins into other countries to kill its political enemies (a practice sometimes called exporting terrorism)?

    Answer: Israel.


    Question: In which country in the Middle East have high-ranking military officers admitted publicly that unarmed prisoners of war were executed?

    Answer: Israel.


    Question: What country in the Middle East refuses to prosecute its soldiers who have acknowledged executing prisoners of war?

    Answer: Israel.


    Question: What country in the Middle East created 762,000 refugees and refuses to allow them to return to their homes, farms and businesses?

    Answer: Israel.

    Question: What country in the Middle East refuses to pay compensation to people whose land, bank accounts and businesses it confiscated?

    Answer: Israel.

    Question: In what country in the Middle East was a high-ranking United Nations diplomat assassinated?

    Answer: Israel.

    Question: In what country in the Middle East did the man who ordered the assassination of a high-ranking U.N. diplomat become prime minister?

    Answer: Israel.

    Question: What country in the Middle East blew up an American diplomatic facility in Egypt and attacked a U.S. ship, the USS Liberty, in international waters, killing 34 and wounding 171 American sailors?

    Answer: Israel.

    Question: What country in the Middle East employed a spy, Jonathan Pollard, to steal classified documents and then gave some of them to the Soviet Union?

    Answer: Israel.

    Question: What country at first denied any official connection to Pollard, then voted to make him a citizen and has continuously demanded that the American president grant Pollard a full pardon?

    Answer: Israel.

    Question: What Middle East country allows American Jewish murderers to flee to its country to escape punishment in the United States and refuses to extradite them once in their custody?

    Answer: Israel.

    Question: What Middle East country preaches against hate yet builds a shrine and a memorial for a murderer who killed 29 Palestinians while they prayed in their Mosque.?

    Answer: Israel.



    Question: What country on Planet Earth has the second most powerful lobby in the United States, according to a recent Fortune magazine survey of Washington insiders?

    Answer: Israel.



    Question: Which country in the Middle East deliberately targeted a U.N. Refugee Camp in Qana, Lebanon and killed 103 innocent men, women, and especially children?

    Answer: Israel.


    Question: Which country in the Middle East is in defiance of 69 United Nations Security Council resolutions and has been protected from 29 more by U.S. vetoes?

    Answer: Israel.



    Question: Which country in the Middle East receives more than one-third of all U.S. aid yet is the 16th richest country in the world?

    Answer: Israel.

    Question: Which country in the Middle East receives U.S. weapons for free and then sells the technology to the Republic of China even at the objections of the U.S.?

    Answer: Israel.



    Question: Which country in the Middle East routinely insults the American people by having its Prime Minister address the United States Congress and lecturing them like children on why they have no right to reduce foreign aid?

    Answer: Israel.



    Question: Which country in the Middle East had its Prime Minister announce to his staff not to worry about what the United States says because "We control America?"

    Answer: Israel.

    Question: What country in the Middle East was cited by Amnesty International for demolishing more than 4000 innocent Palestinian homes as a means of ethnic cleansing.

    Answer: Israel.



    Question: Which country in the Middle East has just recently used a weapon of mass destruction, a one-ton smart bomb, dropping it in the center of a highly populated area killing 15 civilians including 9 children?

    Answer: Israel.

    Question: Which country in the Middle East routinely kills young Palestinian children for no reason other than throwing stones at armored vehicles, bulldozers, or tanks?

    Answer: Israel.



    Question: Which country in the Middle East signed the Oslo Accords promising to halt any new Jewish Settlement construction, but instead, has built more than 270 new settlements since the signing?

    Answer: Israel.

    Question: Which country in the Middle East has assassinated more than 100 political officials of its opponent in the last 2 years while killing hundreds of civilians in the process, including dozens of children?

    Answer: Israel.

    Question: Which country in the Middle East regularly violates the Geneva Convention by imposing collective punishment on entire towns, villages, and camps, for the acts of a few, and even goes as far as demolishing entire villages while people are still in their homes?

    Answer: Israel.

  15. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by tpreitzel View Post
    Acts of war aren't one-sided. Got it?
    Yeah, I do. Do you???

    Hamas controlled Gaza is AT WAR with Egypt and Israel, which is why the blockade exists... to prevent shiploads of Iranian weapons from landing Israel just asks to inspect the cargos, and has consistently sent all humanitarian aid received directly to Gaza.

    Get it now???
    The evils of the protecting-duty, may undoubtedly be graduated by compromises, like those of every other species of tyranny, but the folly of letting in some tyranny has in all ages been fatal to liberty. A succession of wedges, though apparently small, finally splits the strongest timber. ~John Taylor of Caroline, Tyranny Unmasked

    We have four boxes with which to defend our freedom: the soap box, the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box. ~Congressman Larry McDonald.

  16. #43
    Can someone point me to evidence that proofs the blockade is illegal with resources also? I need it for debating with someone.

    Also when someone calls you an anti-semite because they can't respond to your arguements, does that mean you've won? hahah

  17. #44
    I hope Turkey beats the hell out of them.
    "Molon Labe"

  18. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Chieppa1 View Post
    belligerent power? The all power nation of Gaza? The blockade violates natural law and is unhuman and just another violation by Israel excused by people like you. Oh and since you LOVE lists so much:
    The vast majority of things you listed here are things routinely done by a litany of countries in the Middle East.

    Defing the UN Security Council???? OMG, no!!!!
    The evils of the protecting-duty, may undoubtedly be graduated by compromises, like those of every other species of tyranny, but the folly of letting in some tyranny has in all ages been fatal to liberty. A succession of wedges, though apparently small, finally splits the strongest timber. ~John Taylor of Caroline, Tyranny Unmasked

    We have four boxes with which to defend our freedom: the soap box, the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box. ~Congressman Larry McDonald.

  19. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by John Taylor View Post
    +1776. These people chose to try to break a lawful blockade imposed by Egypt and Israel, and then chose to participate in an attack on commandos enforcing the blockade. They brought this on themselves.
    Incorrect. According to the same "international law" the israeli's keep pointing out, within that same law, it specifically gives details which prove their blockade is ILLEGAL.


    http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/stories/s2915343.htm
    http://news.yahoo.com/s/csm/20100602/wl_csm/305360_1
    http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=177028

  20. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by jbrace View Post
    Can someone point me to evidence that proofs the blockade is illegal with resources also? I need it for debating with someone.

    Also when someone calls you an anti-semite because they can't respond to your arguements, does that mean you've won? hahah
    Under international maritime law, blockades are legal when imposed against a belligerent power. In this case, imposed by Egypt and Israel against a Hamas controlled Gaza.
    The evils of the protecting-duty, may undoubtedly be graduated by compromises, like those of every other species of tyranny, but the folly of letting in some tyranny has in all ages been fatal to liberty. A succession of wedges, though apparently small, finally splits the strongest timber. ~John Taylor of Caroline, Tyranny Unmasked

    We have four boxes with which to defend our freedom: the soap box, the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box. ~Congressman Larry McDonald.

  21. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by charrob View Post
    Incorrect. According to the same "international law" the israeli's keep pointing out, within that same law, it specifically gives details which prove their blockade is ILLEGAL.


    http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/stories/s2915343.htm
    http://news.yahoo.com/s/csm/20100602/wl_csm/305360_1
    http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=177028
    False. Maritime law explicitly allows for blockades.
    The evils of the protecting-duty, may undoubtedly be graduated by compromises, like those of every other species of tyranny, but the folly of letting in some tyranny has in all ages been fatal to liberty. A succession of wedges, though apparently small, finally splits the strongest timber. ~John Taylor of Caroline, Tyranny Unmasked

    We have four boxes with which to defend our freedom: the soap box, the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box. ~Congressman Larry McDonald.



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  23. #49

    same international law Israelis persist in pointing out proves their blockade illegal

    Quote Originally Posted by jbrace View Post
    Can someone point me to evidence that proofs the blockade is illegal with resources also? I need it for debating with someone.

    http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/stories/s2915343.htm
    http://news.yahoo.com/s/csm/20100602/wl_csm/305360_1
    http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=177028

  24. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by John Taylor View Post
    Yeah, I do. Do you???

    Hamas controlled Gaza is AT WAR with Egypt and Israel, which is why the blockade exists... to prevent shiploads of Iranian weapons from landing Israel just asks to inspect the cargos, and has consistently sent all humanitarian aid received directly to Gaza.

    Get it now???
    Now, Gaza is at war with Egypt and Israel. Nice little mess this act of war has spawned, eh? Get it now???

    The bullies on the block don't like competition, hence the initiation of an act of war. Neither Israel nor Egypt need to blockade Gaza over the alleged flow of "shiploads" of Iranian weapons. Shall we blockade Israel over its nuclear weapons? Israel has threatened some serious global damage over it's "right" to exist. If "shiploads" of Iranian weapons are being funneled through Gaza, then a perceived demand is present for those weapons. I wonder why?
    Last edited by tpreitzel; 06-03-2010 at 11:32 AM.
    Truth Drives Me

  25. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by tpreitzel View Post
    Now, Gaza is at war with Egypt and Israel. Nice little mess this act of war has spawned, eh? Get it now???
    Gaza has been at war with Israel since Hamas took control there some years ago. That is why Egypt and Israel have a blockade against it.

    Get it now?????
    The evils of the protecting-duty, may undoubtedly be graduated by compromises, like those of every other species of tyranny, but the folly of letting in some tyranny has in all ages been fatal to liberty. A succession of wedges, though apparently small, finally splits the strongest timber. ~John Taylor of Caroline, Tyranny Unmasked

    We have four boxes with which to defend our freedom: the soap box, the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box. ~Congressman Larry McDonald.

  26. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by John Taylor View Post
    False. Maritime law explicitly allows for blockades.
    yes it does: it allows for LEGAL blockades.

    according to that SAME international law the israelis continue to point out, within that law, it proves that Israel's blockade is ILLEGAL.

    before running to conclusions-- perhaps you may want to read.

  27. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by jbrace View Post
    Can someone point me to evidence that proofs the blockade is illegal with resources also? I need it for debating with someone.

    Also when someone calls you an anti-semite because they can't respond to your arguements, does that mean you've won? hahah
    Google "Collective Punishment", and In particular the Forth Geneva Convention.
    There is much there.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  28. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by John Taylor View Post
    False. Maritime law explicitly allows for blockades.
    John, Don't blockades have to happen within a mileage range of 22km of the coast to be determined part of a nations territories?

    If it's not, isn't it by law considered International waters?
    Last edited by jbrace; 06-03-2010 at 11:22 AM.

  29. #55
    None of this is international maritime law.

    In any event, sovereign powers don't answer to international law, as it's unenforceable against a sovereign. It's funny to see you guys bending all over one another to justify using the UN when it suits your purposes...
    The evils of the protecting-duty, may undoubtedly be graduated by compromises, like those of every other species of tyranny, but the folly of letting in some tyranny has in all ages been fatal to liberty. A succession of wedges, though apparently small, finally splits the strongest timber. ~John Taylor of Caroline, Tyranny Unmasked

    We have four boxes with which to defend our freedom: the soap box, the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box. ~Congressman Larry McDonald.

  30. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by "john taylor"
    The bulldozer was supposed to stop? Uh, I didn't see that memo.
    yes, a person shoud not intentionally run over another person with a bulldozer. holy crap



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  32. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by jbrace View Post
    John, Don't blockades have to happen within a mileage range of the coast to be determined their terrorties?

    If not isn't it by law considered International waters?
    Actually no. That's why the Germans were able to sink ships in the open Atlantic during WWI which were attempting to run the blockade of the UK.

    As for your second inquiry, the U.S. maintains, in spite of international law to the contrary, that the U.S. has sovereignty over a further reach of coast than is recognized elsewhere...
    The evils of the protecting-duty, may undoubtedly be graduated by compromises, like those of every other species of tyranny, but the folly of letting in some tyranny has in all ages been fatal to liberty. A succession of wedges, though apparently small, finally splits the strongest timber. ~John Taylor of Caroline, Tyranny Unmasked

    We have four boxes with which to defend our freedom: the soap box, the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box. ~Congressman Larry McDonald.

  33. #58
    A blockade is defined by the Encyclopedia Britannica as "an act of war by which a belligerent prevents access to or departure from a defined part of the enemy’s coasts."

    I suppose it would be illegal unless war has been declared.
    "Molon Labe"

  34. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by John Taylor View Post
    Gaza has been at war with Israel since Hamas took control there some years ago. That is why Egypt and Israel have a blockade against it.

    Get it now?????
    Wrong
    Israel is at war with Gaza. Hamas is at war with Israel. Not all people that live in Gaza are Hamas.
    But all people in Gaza are punished by Israel.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  35. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by lester1/2jr View Post
    yes, a person shoud not intentionally run over another person with a bulldozer. holy crap
    Who said anything about intentionally? Do you know that the bulldozer driver was trying to bulldoze that girl? I haven't seen any evidence of his mens rea regarding that... the woman knew the risk she was taking, and she could have moved. The bulldozer driver likely assumed that the woman was a reasonable person who would not want to be run over... I don't see any intention there... but feel free to demonstrate it to me.
    The evils of the protecting-duty, may undoubtedly be graduated by compromises, like those of every other species of tyranny, but the folly of letting in some tyranny has in all ages been fatal to liberty. A succession of wedges, though apparently small, finally splits the strongest timber. ~John Taylor of Caroline, Tyranny Unmasked

    We have four boxes with which to defend our freedom: the soap box, the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box. ~Congressman Larry McDonald.

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