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Thread: HOLLIS Vs. LYNCH Machine gun ownership.

  1. #1

    HOLLIS Vs. LYNCH Machine gun ownership.

    Interesting case, i'll try to dig up more info.


    HOLLIS Vs. LYNCH
    BE ADVISED THAT HOLLIS Vs. HOLDER is now HOLLIS Vs. LYNCH

    The Heller Foundation is pleased to announce that it has teamed with Jay Hollis and attorneys Stephen Stamboulieh and Alan Beck to fight the federal restrictions on machine gun ownership. Complying with the onerous registration requirements for automatic firearms and paying the $200 tax to exercise his right, Mr. Hollis filed a Form 1 with the BATFE to manufacture an M16 machine gun. The BATFE then approved that Form 1, giving Mr. Hollis permission to manufacture the M16. Shortly afterward the BATFE erroneously and without due process revoked Mr. Hollis’ approval.

    On October 30, 2014 Mr. Hollis filed his complaint against Eric Holder and the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (“BATFE”) seeking to overturn both the National Firearms Act and the ban on private ownership of machine guns manufactured after May 19, 1986. The case, Hollis v. Holder, et al, Civil Action No.3:14-cv-03872-M, is being led by attorneys Stephen Stamboulieh and Alan Beck. It is currently pending in the United States District Court for the Northern District of Texas, Dallas Division. “The M16 is the quinticential militia arm and is thus protected under any reading of Miller or Heller,” said attorney Stephen Stamboulieh.

    “Winning this case is critical to the security of the nation’s citizens,” added Dick Heller, Chairman of the Heller Foundation. “We think it’s important enough that donors to the Heller Foundation can now make a directed contribution on our web site, HellerFoundation.org, for the support of this case.”

    Almost seven years ago the Supreme Court ruled in District of Columbia v. Heller that the Second Amendment protects an individual right to keep and bear arms. The Heller Foundation, a non-profit exempt organization as described in Section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code, was founded shortly after the landmark ruling by plaintiff Dick Heller to continue to expand gun owner rights through the judicial system.

    District of Columbia v. Heller became the cornerstone for gun owners nationwide to push other important wins through the federal court system. Jay Hollis, Stephen Stamboulieh, Alan Beck, and the Heller Foundation intend to build on those wins in the ongoing battle for the Second Amendment by targeting the National Firearms Act and the machine gun ban.
    I guess one of the attorneys posts on the AR forums. They are getting together a group of supporters to go here arguments.
    http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/184...g_thread_.html



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  3. #2
    His name is D i c k not " $#@!" Forum filter has no respect for the 2nd Amendment!

    This case could jeopardize the very precedent that gave it standing.

    With Nino gone, it makes the next justice appointment that much more critical. You couldn't make this sh!t up...

    Gulag Chief:
    "Article 58-1a, twenty five years... What did you get it for?"
    Gulag Prisoner: "For nothing at all."
    Gulag Chief: "You're lying... The sentence for nothing at all is 10 years"



  4. #3
    Here is a little more background to the case.

    Hollis v. Lynch — Amicus Brief
    NOVEMBER 2, 2015

    Today, our firm filed in the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit an amicus brief in support of a challenge to the federal machine gun ban, ironically passed as part of the 1986 Firearm Owners Protection Act.

    Under the Gun Control Act (“GCA”), “persons” are generally prohibited from possessing machineguns. A “person” is defined to include entities such a corporation and partnership – but the definition does not include a trust. Moreover, in 2014, ATF took the position that “unincorporated trusts are not ‘persons’ under the GCA.” Based on that understanding that trusts are not persons, the Jay Aubrey Isaac Hollis Revocable Living Trust applied to the ATF for approval to manufacture and register an M-16 machinegun. When ATF eventually revoked the application, the Trust sued, but the U.S. District Court for the Northern District of Texas dismissed the case.

    The district court decided that machineguns do not even qualify as “arms” protected by the Second Amendment. The district court relied upon cobbled together fragments and dicta from the Supreme Court’s 2008 opinion in Heller and its 1939 opinion in Miller, which the district court claimed “foreclosed” the argument that machineguns are “arms.” Our brief argued that not only did Heller and Miller not foreclose the argument, but rather they support it. Indeed, Heller explicitly stated that “the Second Amendment extends, prima facie, to all instruments that constitute bearable arms.” And Miller stated that weapons which are “part of the ordinary military equipment” (like the M-16) are the sorts protected by the Second Amendment.

    Our brief also critiqued the district court’s absurd use of founding era militia requirements to support its holding. The district court seemed to believe such statutes established maximum limits on the types of weapons people “could” have. On the contrary, those statutes established minimum requirements on the sorts of weapons people “would be required” to have. As our brief argued, the idea is laughable that, if someone showed up at Lexington and Concord with an M-16, his commanders would have turned him away, saying “Take it home, that’s far too effective a weapon to use against the Redcoats.”

    Our brief ridiculed those who say that fully-automatic machineguns are far too terrifying and powerful for ordinary people to own. Indeed, over the course of U.S. history, developments like the semi-automatic M-1 Garand, the lever action Henry Arms repeating rifle – and even the firearm cartridge itself – all were vast improvements in rate of fire and lethality over their predecessors. But you would probably not hear the argument today that the lever-action rifle is too terrifying to allow in civilian hands because of how easy it is to shoot multiple people quickly without reloading.

    Next, our brief critiqued ATF’s bait-and-switch tactics when it comes to trusts and federal gun law. Under federal law, transfers of NFA weapons are exempt from the NICS background check. Indeed, under federal law, it appears that trusts are not subject to the NICS system at all, since they are not persons. However, ATF claims that in NFA transfers to trusts, a “responsible person” must be subject to a NICS check – in direct contravention of the statute. And, our brief argued, if as ATF claims, a trust is not a person, then a trust can possess a machinegun, since only “persons” are prohibited from possessing them. In short, our brief argued that ATF cannot have its cake and eat it to, using conflicting definitions and “interpretations” whenever it suits them.

    Finally, our brief called upon the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit to continue its tradition of standing up for gun rights in spite of overwhelming consensus by other circuits to do the opposite. Indeed, many years prior to Heller, the Fifth Circuit stood alone among the circuits in holding that the Second Amendment protected an individual right. Indeed, when we get down to brass tacks, the Second Amendment is not about hunting, or target shooting, or even just self-defense against a neighbor – but about self-defense against the state, to the end that a “free State” be preserved. It may be, as the Supreme Court noted, that “no amount of small arms could be useful against modern-day bombers and tanks.” They can, however, serve as a bulwark against tyranny.
    Brief

  5. #4
    Audio is up!!

    Nolo and Team,

    Our best wishes are with you. You are doing God's work to defeat Tyranny. No matter what happens today, this week, or in the next few years, your actions will echo through history.

    cheers to that



    and this:

    For me, it is an important change in attitude that we're taking the fight to the courts instead of constantly retreating in the face of demands of 'compromise'(aka surrender by defeat in detail).
    Last edited by presence; 04-05-2016 at 06:32 PM.

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...


  6. #5
    An interesting and valid case, no doubt but I have little faith in 4 justices, and slightly more for 3 more. They see the constitution as affording them liberties, to revise and change the written text to suit their whims and perceptions of a "changing world".

    A couple of interesting perspectives by former justices:


    Gulag Chief:
    "Article 58-1a, twenty five years... What did you get it for?"
    Gulag Prisoner: "For nothing at all."
    Gulag Chief: "You're lying... The sentence for nothing at all is 10 years"



  7. #6
    I still really want a Thompson.

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin Truth View Post
    I still really want a Thompson.
    And a BAR .

  9. #8
    A HK UMP in 40 or 45 would be very cool.

    Gulag Chief:
    "Article 58-1a, twenty five years... What did you get it for?"
    Gulag Prisoner: "For nothing at all."
    Gulag Chief: "You're lying... The sentence for nothing at all is 10 years"





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  11. #9
    I'm more interested in suppressors and short-barreled rifles than fully automatic guns.

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    I'm more interested in suppressors and short-barreled rifles than fully automatic guns.
    I like short barrel shotguns .

  13. #11
    Anyone find todays recording? All i can do is link to the AR forums and i think this is yesterdays recording. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/168....html&page=197

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by tommyrp12 View Post
    Anyone find todays recording? All i can do is link to the AR forums and i think this is yesterdays recording. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/168....html&page=197

    Seems like it has yet to have been posted. Docket: 15-10803

    http://www.ca5.uscourts.gov/oral-arg...ent-recordings

    Gulag Chief:
    "Article 58-1a, twenty five years... What did you get it for?"
    Gulag Prisoner: "For nothing at all."
    Gulag Chief: "You're lying... The sentence for nothing at all is 10 years"



  15. #13
    Alright i guess i'll just have to wait. Thanks.

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    I'm more interested in suppressors and short-barreled rifles than fully automatic guns.
    I would be interested in a restoration of rights,, or removal of laws that created it.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    I would be interested in a restoration of rights,, or removal of laws that created it.
    Absolutely. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for any repeal of any gun ownership restrictions at all. I just personally don't see much use, for myself anyway, for fully automatic guns. For me, the limiting factor in that would be the price of ammo as much as the law.

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    Absolutely. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for any repeal of any gun ownership restrictions at all. I just personally don't see much use, for myself anyway, for fully automatic guns. For me, the limiting factor in that would be the price of ammo as much as the law.
    My interest is historical and mechanical. Machines interest me.

    I am more a single six kind of guy.

    BUT, the GCA (acts),, should never exist in any form.. I am all for any challenges to it.
    I honestly have little hope in such,,
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post

    I am more a single six kind of guy.
    Ah, yes! A fellow m61 fan!
    Just about enough juice for almost any enthusiast!



    Or the little brother 134 - I'll be back!







    ...lil humor, Pete. I know what you meant

    Gulag Chief:
    "Article 58-1a, twenty five years... What did you get it for?"
    Gulag Prisoner: "For nothing at all."
    Gulag Chief: "You're lying... The sentence for nothing at all is 10 years"



  21. #18
    If it ain't NFA Title II then it is NOT what the Founders intended.

    The equivalent weapon for the modern Rebecca Stillwell would be a nice 127mm coastal artillery piece.

    http://www.historicalmarkerproject.c...armora-NJ.html

    Rebecca fired a round of cannon grapeshot towards the long boat and the British returned to their sloop and left the bay, its settlers, and their homes unscathed.
    XNN
    "They sell us the president the same way they sell us our clothes and our cars. They sell us every thing from youth to religion the same time they sell us our wars. I want to know who the men in the shadows are. I want to hear somebody asking them why. They can be counted on to tell us who our enemies are but theyre never the ones to fight or to die." - Jackson Browne Lives In The Balance

  22. #19
    Befor its over, I will own several M16s / M4s, and at least one M240 and M2.
    Out of every one hundred men they send us, ten should not even be here. Eighty will do nothing but serve as targets for the enemy. Nine are real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, upon them depends our success in battle. But one, ah the one, he is a real warrior, and he will bring the others back from battle alive.

    Duty is the most sublime word in the English language. Do your duty in all things. You can not do more than your duty. You should never wish to do less than your duty.

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    Absolutely. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for any repeal of any gun ownership restrictions at all. I just personally don't see much use, for myself anyway, for fully automatic guns. For me, the limiting factor in that would be the price of ammo as much as the law.
    Hey, you never know when you will need to suppressive fire from an M240B.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pericles View Post
    Befor its over, I will own several M16s / M4s, and at least one M240 and M2.
    Select fire on an M16/M4 is pointless in actual use, but an M240 or M2...well yes, yes please.

    I'd be happy with an M249 SAW though...I can afford 5.56 but 7.62x51 is brutal on my wallet. .50 cal...yeah I can't even imagine.
    "I know the urge to arm yourself, because that’s what I did. I was trained in firearms. When I walked to the hospital when my husband was sick, I carried a concealed weapon. I made the determination that if somebody was going to try to take me out I was going to take them with me."

    Diane Feinstein, 1995

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Uriel999 View Post
    Hey, you never know when you will need to suppressive fire from an M240B.



    Select fire on an M16/M4 is pointless in actual use, but an M240 or M2...well yes, yes please.

    I'd be happy with an M249 SAW though...I can afford 5.56 but 7.62x51 is brutal on my wallet. .50 cal...yeah I can't even imagine.
    I never got to handle a SAW. Hell, never even saw one....lol. I am correct in understanding you're saying the SAW comes in .308? If so, that must be a beast to handle on full auto. That would be a hard choice....5.56 for better control of fire, or .308 for "here comes the pain" fire.

    I actually liked the A2 with it's burst setting as opposed to full auto. Kind of a good compromise between accuracy and suppressive fire.
    "Self conquest is the greatest of all victories." - Plato

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Intoxiklown View Post
    I never got to handle a SAW. Hell, never even saw one....lol. I am correct in understanding you're saying the SAW comes in .308? If so, that must be a beast to handle on full auto. That would be a hard choice....5.56 for better control of fire, or .308 for "here comes the pain" fire.

    I actually liked the A2 with it's burst setting as opposed to full auto. Kind of a good compromise between accuracy and suppressive fire.
    THe M249 SAW is only 5.56. However, the MK48 is a scaled up version in 7.62x51.

    As somebody that has shot the M240 and M249, both weapon systems are very controllable.

    In my experience shooting the M16A4 on burst made shot groups open up dramatically.
    "I know the urge to arm yourself, because that’s what I did. I was trained in firearms. When I walked to the hospital when my husband was sick, I carried a concealed weapon. I made the determination that if somebody was going to try to take me out I was going to take them with me."

    Diane Feinstein, 1995

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by presence View Post
    You are doing God's work to defeat Tyranny.
    Could someone please explain to me why the $#@! God isn't doing "God's work"?
    freedomisobvious.blogspot.com

    There is only one correct way: freedom. All other solutions are non-solutions.

    It appears that artificial intelligence is at least slightly superior to natural stupidity.

    Our words make us the ghosts that we are.

    Convincing the world he didn't exist was the Devil's second greatest trick; the first was convincing us that God didn't exist.

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Uriel999 View Post
    THe M249 SAW is only 5.56. However, the MK48 is a scaled up version in 7.62x51.

    As somebody that has shot the M240 and M249, both weapon systems are very controllable.

    In my experience shooting the M16A4 on burst made shot groups open up dramatically.
    Ahhh.....thanks for clarifying. I think I would prefer the 7.62x51, but as I've said, I've never even seen...much less fire.....the SAW system. When I went through American weapons training, we shot the M60 and the .50 cal mounted.

    And zero argument about burst mode, simply saying I would prefer it over full auto for supression. If I'm not mistaken, it was the Marines who wanted the A2 version, as opposed to the A1? But like you, I believe semi-auto is for fighting, and full auto is for falling back (or flanking). I never saw the M4 either when I was in, but I was support in a pre 9/11 Army. Hell, the only time I ever saw the M9 (I had an old Beretta 92F in the late 80's as a teen) was officers carrying them in the field.
    "Self conquest is the greatest of all victories." - Plato



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    Could someone please explain to me why the $#@! God isn't doing "God's work"?
    Bingo! Almost all of my arguments against "the Church" relate back to this one simple idea. God is certainly powerful enough and willing to make sure whatever "work" he wants done gets done...
    BEWARE THE CULT OF "GOVERNMENT"

    Christian Anarchy - Our Only Hope For Liberty In Our Lifetime!
    Sonmi 451: Truth is singular. Its "versions" are mistruths.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:ChristianAnarchist

    Use an internet archive site like
    THIS ONE
    to archive the article and create the link to the article content instead.

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    I'm more interested in suppressors and short-barreled rifles than fully automatic guns.
    Yeah, until they ban adding new ones to the NFA....

  31. #27
    Petition for Rehearing En Banc Filed in Hollis v. Lynch

    July 30, 2016
    Yesterday, we filed the Petition for Rehearing En Banc in Hollis v. Lynch. A summary:



    En banc review is necessary for this Court to consider a question of exceptional importance: whether the Second Amendment protects a bearable arm; an M16 machinegun lawfully owned by a law-abiding citizen. In holding that the Second Amendment does not protect bearable machineguns, the panel diminished the holding in District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008) then elevated Heller’s dicta to binding precedent. The panel did not address or resolve Appellant’s as-applied challenge to the law. The panel did not conduct a historical analysis to determine if the arm was in the scope of the Second Amendment as understood when the Second Amendment was ratified because, as Heller stated: “Constitutional rights are enshrined with the scope they were understood to have when the people adopted them, whether or not future legislatures or (yes) even future judges think that scope too broad. Id. at 634–35.

    You can read the entire filing here.

    While we are all dreaming..............






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