Europe

[Jesse James]

I am a college student in the United States and my girlfriend and I would like to relocate to a country more suitable for liberty. We only see the general direction of America staying the same as it has since it's founding. We think there are better opportunities for our family and future descendants in some places in Europe. I would love to get a resident permit, then permanent residency, and in who knows how many decades citizenship in either Liechtenstein or Switzerland. Doing any of those three things is very tough to do if you are not an EU or EFFA citizen, so, we think we are better off living somewhere for 5-10 years, gaining citizenship in that country, and then relocating to one of those two countries since it will then be a lot easier to do so. We think it will be fun too. My question is what country should we consider getting citizenship in and living in for 5-10 years?
Things to consider:
-my girlfriend will be studying medicine in whatever country we choose, so it needs to have good medical schools.
-since we will eventually plan to live in Liechtenstein, I will be learning German asap. The country we move to doesn't have to be a German speaking country, we would be willing to learn another language, but I guess German countries should be prioritized over other?
-the lower the taxes, the easier citizenship/residency/immigration, and the lesser the penalties for drug violations, the better.


Can any European libertarians or libertarians with knowledge on Europe help me out?

[oyarde]

How do you intend to finance this ?

[oyarde]

More free and Europe does not sound like a match . In Texas they have a liberal town of unwashed hippies called Austin . Very expensive place though .

[AuH20]

Aren't you supposed to run away from the fire? LOL

[Zippyjuan]

So you don't already speak the language. That will make moving and trying to find a job difficult. Leichtenstein is a very small country and very limited on how many people can live there.

Residence permits

Foreign nationals wishing to live in Liechtenstein require a residence pemit. A total of 89 such residence permits are granted by the government each year to citizens of EEA states and Swiss nationals. In special cases residence permits can be awarded to citizens of other countries.
There are two different kinds of residence permit that can be awarded. One permit allows residence for work purposes. The other permit allows residence without the permit holder having to work in Liechtenstein.

Granting process for residence permits

There are 72 residence permits granted to EEA citizens each year: 56 to persons working in Liechtenstein and 16 to persons not working in Liechtenstein. Half of the permits are awarded using a lottery, with the other half awarded directly by the government. Tighter restrictions apply to Swiss citizens. There are only 17 residence permits awarded each year to Swiss nationals: twelve to persons working in Liechtenstein and five to persons not working in Liechtenstein. All of these permits are awarded by the government.

Citizens of other countries must be a manager, specialist or qualified worker with a complete apprenticeship or many years of working experience in order to receive a residence permit.

Permanent residency and establishment

A residence permit gives the holder the right to stay in Liechtenstein for up to five years. After the end of this period, permit holders and their family members can apply for a permanent residence permit or a settlement permit.

https://www.liechtenstein-business.l...dence-permits/

Switzerland is very difficult to move to also.

http://www.businessinsider.com/what-...zerland-2015-7

The Swiss don't let just anyone into the country. In order to be approved for a residence permit, you have to have a job offer and it has to be for a job that cannot be done by a Swiss national. Your company must second you — assign you to work in a different department for a certain period of time.

Also language depends on where in Switzerland. There are portions where Italian is used. There are French areas. There are German speaking areas. It is also very expensive and has many more rules and restrictions on things than even the US.

[luctor-et-emergo]

[FONT="]I am a college student in the United States and my girlfriend and I would like to relocate to a country more suitable for liberty. We only see the general direction of America staying the same as it has since it's founding. We think there are better opportunities for our family and future descendants in some places in Europe. I would love to get a resident permit, then permanent residency, and in who knows how many decades citizenship in either Liechtenstein or Switzerland. Doing any of those three things is very tough to do if you are not an EU or EFFA citizen, so, we think we are better off living somewhere for 5-10 years, gaining citizenship in that country, and then relocating to one of those two countries since it will then be a lot easier to do so. We think it will be fun too. My question is what country should we consider getting citizenship in and living in for 5-10 years?[/FONT]
[FONT="]Things to consider:[/FONT]
[FONT="]-my girlfriend will be studying medicine in whatever country we choose, so it needs to have good medical schools.[/FONT]
[FONT="]-since we will eventually plan to live in Liechtenstein, I will be learning German asap. The country we move to doesn't have to be a German speaking country, we would be willing to learn another language, but I guess German countries should be prioritized over other?[/FONT]
[FONT="]-the lower the taxes, the easier citizenship/residency/immigration, and the lesser the penalties for drug violations, the better.[/FONT]
[FONT="]
[/FONT]
Can any European libertarians or libertarians with knowledge on Europe help me out?

If only you were a refugee, you'd probably already have citizenship.

[dannno]

Why do you think anywhere in Europe is more suitable for liberty?

[pcosmar]

Why do you think anywhere in Europe is more suitable for liberty?

It still has people in it.

But then, I think everywhere is suitable for Liberty.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

[FSP-Rebel]

I hear Malmo, Sweden is nice. Seriously tho, just pack up and move to NH as it has lower taxes, loose gun laws, good med schools and a FSP attraction.

[PierzStyx]

[FONT="]I am a college student in the United States and my girlfriend and I would like to relocate to a country more suitable for liberty. We only see the general direction of America staying the same as it has since it's founding. We think there are better opportunities for our family and future descendants in some places in Europe. I would love to get a resident permit, then permanent residency, and in who knows how many decades citizenship in either Liechtenstein or Switzerland. Doing any of those three things is very tough to do if you are not an EU or EFFA citizen, so, we think we are better off living somewhere for 5-10 years, gaining citizenship in that country, and then relocating to one of those two countries since it will then be a lot easier to do so. We think it will be fun too. My question is what country should we consider getting citizenship in and living in for 5-10 years?[/FONT]
[FONT="]Things to consider:[/FONT]
[FONT="]-my girlfriend will be studying medicine in whatever country we choose, so it needs to have good medical schools.[/FONT]
[FONT="]-since we will eventually plan to live in Liechtenstein, I will be learning German asap. The country we move to doesn't have to be a German speaking country, we would be willing to learn another language, but I guess German countries should be prioritized over other?[/FONT]
[FONT="]-the lower the taxes, the easier citizenship/residency/immigration, and the lesser the penalties for drug violations, the better.[/FONT]
[FONT="]
[/FONT]
Can any European libertarians or libertarians with knowledge on Europe help me out?

Iceland.

[Anti Federalist]

I hear Malmo, Sweden is nice. Seriously tho, just pack up and move to NH as it has lower taxes, loose gun laws, good med schools and a FSP attraction.

This.

Of the few nations on earth that are as or more free than the state of New Hampshire is, you will find that every one of them have not lost their collective minds, and will not let just anybody waltz in.

[Jesse James]

How do you intend to finance this ?

finance what?

I'll have money saved up, find work before that runs out. Medical school is way cheaper in Europe

[Jesse James]

More free and Europe does not sound like a match . In Texas they have a liberal town of unwashed hippies called Austin . Very expensive place though .

ever drink in public without worry about getting stopped for public intoxication? not in America.
lots safer, less people in jail, less intrusive cops, taxes that don't support death to millions for starters..

[Jesse James]

So you don't already speak the language. That will make moving and trying to find a job difficult. Leichtenstein is a very small country and very limited on how many people can live there.



https://www.liechtenstein-business.l...dence-permits/

Switzerland is very difficult to move to also.

http://www.businessinsider.com/what-...zerland-2015-7



Also language depends on where in Switzerland. There are portions where Italian is used. There are French areas. There are German speaking areas. It is also very expensive and has many more rules and restrictions on things than even the US.

Yes I know Liechtenstein is very hard I will be applying every year after I get my EU citizenship.

I'm going to learn German while an undergrad and possibly Italian eventually. Ticino (the Italian canton) seems cool, Zug and Schwyz also seem like cool cantons

[Jesse James]

If only you were a refugee, you'd probably already have citizenship.

I have thought about this many times. Liechtenstein has a clause about accepting anybody in danger of not having freedom in their country... or something like that. The Prince is an ancap. Perhaps I can convince him I am a libertarian refugee

[Jesse James]

Why do you think anywhere in Europe is more suitable for liberty?

-Rural America is superior to Switzerland aside from the taxes and possibly even Liechtenstein too BUT if you want to live in a city then you are better of in one of those two from what I can see.

-They are building a wall to keep us in. America has become more and more of a totalitarian police state in the past 150 years and nothing will possibly reverse this. The South tried and our grandfathers died.

-Read up on Liechtenstein. It's a (Christians, and maybe even non-Christians) anarcho capitalist paradise. Switzerland is a pretty good "Gary Johnson" style libertarian place... Some cantons like Zug, Schwyz and Ticino seem better than others.

-More civil liberties (aside from Gun ownersip. Those two countries allow guns though.. And I don't bring a gun with me places other than to hunt or shooting range anyway. Nor deny the holocaust. So I'll be fine)

[Jesse James]

I hear Malmo, Sweden is nice. Seriously tho, just pack up and move to NH as it has lower taxes, loose gun laws, good med schools and a FSP attraction.

Switzerland and Liechtenstein have lower taxes. New Hampshire does seem nice but then so does Texas. I'm just not sure if I want to stay in the USA any more.

[Jesse James]

Iceland.

Back in ancient times...

What makes you say this?

[luctor-et-emergo]

For the Netherlands;
-my girlfriend will be studying medicine in whatever country we choose, so it needs to have good medical schools.
*I guess we have okay medical schools around here.

-since we will eventually plan to live in Liechtenstein, I will be learning German asap. The country we move to doesn't have to be a German speaking country, we would be willing to learn another language, but I guess German countries should be prioritized over other?
*The Netherlands is next to Germany so it's easy to practice once in a while, the added benefit is that everyone here speaks English.

-the lower the taxes, the easier citizenship/residency/immigration, and the lesser the penalties for drug violations, the better.
*Certainly not the lowest taxes around here but not the highest either. Easy immigration and residency. Low penalties on drug violations, most likely none if you are just a user.

Can't say too much about other countries. If I were you though, I'd probably look at the Netherlands, Norway and Germany.

[FSP-Rebel]

Switzerland and Liechtenstein have lower taxes. New Hampshire does seem nice but then so does Texas. I'm just not sure if I want to stay in the USA any more.

Unfortunately, NH still is in the USA and can't avoid the federal level taxes unless you're ballsy. However, you can easily move to NH and prosper rather than waiting a decade or more to move to the former places, if ever. Also, no language barrier.

[Anti Federalist]

Switzerland and Liechtenstein have lower taxes. New Hampshire does seem nice but then so does Texas. I'm just not sure if I want to stay in the USA any more.

Switzerland #1

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-cou...rall-full-list

Of course, you have to understand, you have a better chance of seeing God than you do becoming a Swiss citizen or even permanent resident.

[Zippyjuan]

Yes I know Liechtenstein is very hard I will be applying every year after I get my EU citizenship.

I'm going to learn German while an undergrad and possibly Italian eventually. Ticino (the Italian canton) seems cool, Zug and Schwyz also seem like cool cantons

If you choose Switzerland, that will be a long time from now. http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/becoming-a-citizen/29288376

Foreigners with no direct blood ties to Switzerland through either birth or marriage must currently live in the country for at least 12 years before they can apply for citizenship. Years spent in the country between ages ten and 20 count double. A new law reducing the number of years of residence from 12 to 10 was passed by Parliament in June 2014 and is expected to go into effect from January 1, 2018.

The State Secretariat for Migration examines whether applicants are integrated in the Swiss way of life, are familiar with Swiss customs and traditions, comply with the Swiss rule of law, and do not endanger Switzerland's internal or external security.

The State Secretariat for Migration will then “green light” an applicant’s request to begin the naturalisation process but that does not mean citizenship is certain. Rather, cantons and municipalities have their own requirements that must be met.

After submitting your naturalisation application, you will be invited to a personal interview where you will be informed of the subsequent steps to be taken.

Naturalisation procedures vary considerably from one commune or canton to another: some communes, for instance, require applicants to take a verbal or written naturalisation test while others leave the naturalisation decision up to the communal assembly. The duration of the procedure also varies considerably from one canton to another.

[Anti Federalist]

Switzerland is generally regarded as the most free country on the planet.

So how can this be?

I thought accepting the socialist hordes of wretched refuse is the hallmark of liberty?

Foreigners with no direct blood ties to Switzerland through either birth or marriage must currently live in the country for at least 12 years before they can apply for citizenship. Years spent in the country between ages ten and 20 count double. A new law reducing the number of years of residence from 12 to 10 was passed by Parliament in June 2014 and is expected to go into effect from January 1, 2018.

The State Secretariat for Migration examines whether applicants are integrated in the Swiss way of life, are familiar with Swiss customs and traditions, comply with the Swiss rule of law, and do not endanger Switzerland's internal or external security.

The State Secretariat for Migration will then “green light” an applicant’s request to begin the naturalisation process but that does not mean citizenship is certain. Rather, cantons and municipalities have their own requirements that must be met.

After submitting your naturalisation application, you will be invited to a personal interview where you will be informed of the subsequent steps to be taken.

Naturalisation procedures vary considerably from one commune or canton to another: some communes, for instance, require applicants to take a verbal or written naturalisation test while others leave the naturalisation decision up to the communal assembly. The duration of the procedure also varies considerably from one canton to another.

[Jesse James]

Unfortunately, NH still is in the USA and can't avoid the federal level taxes unless you're ballsy. However, you can easily move to NH and prosper rather than waiting a decade or more to move to the former places, if ever. Also, no language barrier.

Is NH really better than other parts of America?

COuld be more like 5 than 6 years but I get your point. I could always just wait 15 years after I and the future wife have some work experience and then go to Switzerland unless America gets really bad before gen

[Jesse James]

Unfortunately, NH still is in the USA and can't avoid the federal level taxes unless you're ballsy. However, you can easily move to NH and prosper rather than waiting a decade or more to move to the former places, if ever. Also, no language barrier.

Switzerland #1

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-cou...rall-full-list

Of course, you have to understand, you have a better chance of seeing God than you do becoming a Swiss citizen or even permanent resident.

I can't remember for sure but I think After 5 years or so it isn't too hard to get a permenant residency. Citizenship can after 10 years starting in 2018. That's the same as some other European countries like Austria

[Jesse James]

Unfortunately, NH still is in the USA and can't avoid the federal level taxes unless you're ballsy. However, you can easily move to NH and prosper rather than waiting a decade or more to move to the former places, if ever. Also, no language barrier.

Switzerland #1

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-cou...rall-full-list

Of course, you have to understand, you have a better chance of seeing God than you do becoming a Swiss citizen or even permanent resident.

If you choose Switzerland, that will be a long time from now. http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/becoming-a-citizen/29288376

Yes I meant to say in the original post that Switzerland isn't really a destination for this plan. I'm looking for a EU country then Switzerland or Liechtenstein. The canton ot zug doesn't have many restrictions for immigration and has the lowest taxes

[Lamp]

What about San Marino?

[Zippyjuan]

Europe's personal tax rates are pretty much all higher than they are in the US. Then they add Value Added Taxes to almost everything you buy (most are 25% on that). The Baltics are pretty low by comparison (Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia). Russian would be the main language there.

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/coun...ncome-tax-rate

[oyarde]

finance what?

I'll have money saved up, find work before that runs out. Medical school is way cheaper in Europe

Yeah , as long as you are not borrowing money to do it go for it . Otherwise probably not worth it in the long run.