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Thread: Jesus would have hated Christianity as organized religion

  1. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by JuicyG View Post
    Oh boy...

    Where do you start with the list of errors?


    1. Jesus is the same God in the Old Testament. What He said about homosexuality in the Old is the same as in the New.




    2. Jesus came to preach that the Pharisees were dead in the inside. Although they were viewed as the "religious people", their righteousness couldn't save them. They were law-breakers condemned to Hell, because they sought to be made right before God by how well they followed the law.

    Jesus said that you had to be absolutely perfect to stand in the presence of the Father. You had to follow the law perfectly. He said that if your righteousness didn't surpass the scribes and the Pharisees, you would go to Hell. He said if you were not perfect as the Father in Heaven is perfect, you are going to Hell.

    Jesus said you had to be perfect to stand before the Father. But who could ever claim perfection? No one. This is why the only way a man can be saved (made right before God) is to have faith in Christ's perfect law-keeping. Jesus followed the law perfectly. A man is saved by faith alone.

    All those who trust in their own law-keeping will never enter the kingdom of God, like the atheist in this video. He probably thinks he is good to his kids, a good taxpayer, and good to his neighbors. Atheists are the perfect Pharisees. They love to tell everyone of their own goodness, while inside they are nothing but dead men's bones. And believe me, I preach this to myself as well as everyone else, believe me...




    3. I hate these kind of videos where atheists try to define who Jesus is. To adequately define who Jesus is and what His mission was and where He is now, you have to be born again. You have to have had the Spirit regenerate your heart and bring the Scriptures alive for you.
    Last edited by Sola_Fide; 03-09-2012 at 09:48 PM.



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  3. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by TER View Post
    In the New Testament and writings of the Church Fathers, the Church is described as both the Bride and the Body of Christ.
    To anyone who is interested, in Eastern Orthodox Christian theology, we ascribe to the belief espoused by St. Paul that in the holy sacrament of marriage, the man and women become one flesh and there is a mystical change in reality between two persons. Mysteriously, beyond time and our perceptions of reality, the man and the wife now become united naturally in flesh, one body of two persons. A metaphysical and cosmic communion of being and that in such love, life is created. Marriage is a joyful and blessed mystery and reveals much about the nature of divine love.

    So blessed is holy matrimony that it was the scene of Christ's first public miracle after assembling His Chosen Twelve. In it, He turned the water to wine, and revealed to all of creation the blessedness of this festive union and holy sacrament of communion and love.

    And what does God reveal? That when such a blessed union of love is made and shared, it often creates a trinitarian reality, - the creation of life!, - the bringing forth by creative love the generation of a new life. Beyond the obvious manisfestation of children between a man and a women, other mysteries are revealed about the nature of God as described as Love. Our new life in Christ also involves our communion and sharing of love between two persons, namely ourself and Christ. By this, we shed the old man and put on the new and become reborn. Life itself springs from loving communion, and our generation and our regeneration is trinitarian in image and trinitarian in nature, for by this image we naturally acquire a godlike attribute such as creating life.

    Similarly, it carries soteriological significance in how Christ saves us, and why the Church is the Bride of Christ and at the same time the Body of Christ in the world. They are indeed the same thing before His presence, for according to Christian theology, the man and the women assume one flesh. How? We don't know. This is what was told by Christ and through the teachings of His Apostles. So as this was the defended orthodox belief from the beginning, then that is what has been defended by countless souls since the beginning, and accepted as the universal and historic belief. And this faith reveals that our very salvation is tied to Christ's economia as Risen Savior, and that we find salvation by having real union with Him, fully and in completeness, specifically as He mentioned, in spirit and truth. For in spirit and truth our entire being is transformed and transfigured, in the fullness of our being: our body, soul, and spirit. We must 'put on Christ' as described by St. Paul and thus gain the Spirit, for by doing that, we gain Christ Himself, and He fills our deficiencies and heals our passions and bring us to righteousness with our Father in Heaven. For it is by His Glorious Resurrection, we who are dying in our sins gain resurrection, for He has made it possible by overcoming sin and forever destroying the power of death. That is why all men kneel before Christ and why in Christ alone do we find salvation.

    And these are a few reasons why the Church is called the Bride of Christ and the Body of Christ according to St. Paul and the earliest Christian writers. In a nutshell, by our mystical union with Him, we enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

    Ive rambled enough and its time to get to bed. Forgive me and pray for me and pray for the future of this nation!
    Last edited by TER; 03-10-2012 at 06:11 AM.
    +
    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ

  4. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by TER View Post
    Actually, she is regarded as one of the greatest saints in the Church and as the First Apostle. The painting of her as some cheap whore is a western medievel innovation.

    As for the Gospel with her name attached to it, it is a gnostic text and is not considered authoratative and certainly not canoncial.
    Admitting and including Magdalene`s gospel in the bible, labeling properly as 1st apostle and Jesus` favorite and maybe even his lover, would have shaken the church foundations as we know it. We would have seen women priests and such among many other changes. However, it came in conflict with certain misogynistic views church kept on perpetrating.
    Last edited by JuicyG; 03-10-2012 at 05:16 AM.
    Let`s get Ron Paul into top 10 to generate headlines. We need more people.

    "What does not kill me, makes me stronger."
    - Friedrich Nietzsche, philosopher (1844-1900), Twilight of the Idols

    "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."
    - Arthur Schopenhauer, philosopher (1788 - 1860)

    https://twitter.com/#!/JuicyGrabs

  5. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by JuicyG View Post
    Admitting and including Magdalene`s gospel in the bible, labeling properly as 1st apostle and Jesus` favorite and maybe even his lover, would have shaken the church foundations as we know it. We would have seen women priests and such among many other changes. However, it came in conflict with certain misogynistic views church kept on perpetrating.
    Except she was never a lover in the way you are alluding to and that is just partly the reason why it was universally considered to be of dubious and heretical origin. So to try to attack the Church, you claim it was because of misogynistic views. No, it was because it is untrue. Had it been true, then it would be proclaimed as being true and defended from the get go by the blood of martyrs, and simply accepted as it was. But because it didn't happen that way, and is rather a dubious fabricated writing of a Gnostic cult which was first discovered in the fifth century, the cynics and enemies of the Church scream foul and make false accusations of misogyny and prejudice! lol. The reality is not as conspiratorial as you fantasize it to be. The Gospel of Mary was never considered an authentic writing nor of being authoritative because it was simply was not true and did not conform to the faith handed down by the saints. It was, in a word, a fake.
    Last edited by TER; 03-10-2012 at 06:36 AM.
    +
    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ

  6. #95
    Indeed, the Church is anything but misogynistic. For the greatest saint born of human parents is a women, namely the Blessed Virgin Mother of God.
    +
    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ

  7. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by TER View Post
    Indeed, the Church is anything but misogynistic. For the greatest saint born of human parents is a women, namely the Blessed Virgin Mother of God.
    The blessed virgin Marry was never an actual virgin but this is different topic.

    If church is so not misogynistic how come they don`t allow women as priests and high ranking jobs within the church. I`m not talking about nuns. This is different matter.
    Let`s get Ron Paul into top 10 to generate headlines. We need more people.

    "What does not kill me, makes me stronger."
    - Friedrich Nietzsche, philosopher (1844-1900), Twilight of the Idols

    "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."
    - Arthur Schopenhauer, philosopher (1788 - 1860)

    https://twitter.com/#!/JuicyGrabs



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  9. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by JuicyG View Post

    If church is so not misogynistic how come they don`t allow women as priests and high ranking jobs within the church.
    There is a big difference between misogynistic and sexist.

  10. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by otherone View Post
    There is a big difference between misogynistic and sexist.
    True. Sexist would be more suitable in this context.
    Let`s get Ron Paul into top 10 to generate headlines. We need more people.

    "What does not kill me, makes me stronger."
    - Friedrich Nietzsche, philosopher (1844-1900), Twilight of the Idols

    "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."
    - Arthur Schopenhauer, philosopher (1788 - 1860)

    https://twitter.com/#!/JuicyGrabs

  11. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Even if that were true it doesn't mean anything significant since 1st century families were patriarchal and much more ordered with dominant and subordinate members unlike modern families.

    Edit: That is to say your placing a false dichotomy between family and government. The governmental aspect of some churches is not a problem in fact it's required. Rather, the problem is many churches are merely governments and as TER said do not have the attributes of the body of Christ.
    Going further with the body analogy, Paul identified Christ as the head of the church. (Ephesians 5:23). And in 1 Corinthians 12 he made it clear that the different parts of the body shouldn't act like they are more important than the other. Instead most modern Christian sects are organized with humans at the head. TER brought up the apostles coming together to make decisions about doctrine. That is true. But it's clear from Paul's writings that he didn't feel bound by those decisions. The council in Jerusalem declared that the new believers should abstain from meat offered to idols. Paul declared that "an idol is nothing" but said that he would abstain from meat offered to idols if it would cause his brother to stumble. In other words he was more constrained by not wanting to cause confusion among a new believer than he was by edicts from Jerusalem or any other council.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  12. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by JuicyG View Post
    The blessed virgin Marry was never an actual virgin but this is different topic.

    If church is so not misogynistic how come they don`t allow women as priests and high ranking jobs within the church. I`m not talking about nuns. This is different matter.
    Yet another one of your false revisions of history. The Virgin Mary was a virgin, Jesus Christ was conceived by act of the Holy Spirit.

    There are no woman priests because that is not the role God gave women. Jesus did not choose women as his apostles. It is neither sexist nor misogynistic nor discriminatory. God gave us two genders, each with different roles.

  13. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    Going further with the body analogy, Paul identified Christ as the head of the church. (Ephesians 5:23). And in 1 Corinthians 12 he made it clear that the different parts of the body shouldn't act like they are more important than the other. Instead most modern Christian sects are organized with humans at the head.
    This is why Presbyterianism is the best form of church government. It provides the accountability that all nondenominational churches lack without the tyranny of the RCC and Episcopal style church governments.


    TER brought up the apostles coming together to make decisions about doctrine. That is true. But it's clear from Paul's writings that he didn't feel bound by those decisions. The council in Jerusalem declared that the new believers should abstain from meat offered to idols. Paul declared that "an idol is nothing" but said that he would abstain from meat offered to idols if it would cause his brother to stumble. In other words he was more constrained by not wanting to cause confusion among a new believer than he was by edicts from Jerusalem or any other council.
    Sure, as a a good reformed guy I believe we are constrained by God and conscience before the teachings of men. That doesn't mean teaching on doctrine and practice doesn't play a very important role in the church. A common misconception of the reformation is that it rebuked church authority. That's not entirely correct as you simply can't have cohesion as a body without some authority being vested in leadership. What the reformer's rejected was the church's absolute authority. I think the Corinthians passage says a lot about finding ways to be obedient to both God and men when it comes to smaller issues. That is, you don't obey men just for the sake of it, but rather for the unity of the body as long as you can do so in good conscience.

  14. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by JuicyG View Post
    The blessed virgin Marry was never an actual virgin but this is different topic.

    If church is so not misogynistic how come they don`t allow women as priests and high ranking jobs within the church. I`m not talking about nuns. This is different matter.
    You may not believe in the virgin birth, but that is because you are not Christian. Christians, on the other hand, believe in the virgin birth.

    Women are not allowed as priests because God did not arrange it to be that way. The priesthood starting way back from the Old Testament was a vocation for men. Why? I don't know. It was God's good pleasure to have it that way. Does that mean women have less of a role then men or cannot be as holy? Of course not! I just mentioned above that the greatest saint is indeed a women, and she was never a priest or a bishop. That God arraigned different roles between man and women is not sexist in the modern parlance of the word, it is rather a consequence of the good order created by God which pertains to our very salvation, both intricate and necessary parts which rely upon each other to bring out the fullness of our being, whether it be male or female. It is only when considered separately do we humans begin to notice differences which often creates within ourselves emotions of envy and pride. When viewed together and to completion however, these distinctions become less passion provoking and seen for the reality that God created it to be: for the progression and sanctification of our generation, made possible not by one or the other, but requiring both the male and the female with different roles working together in a communion of love and service to the other.
    +
    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ

  15. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by JuicyG View Post
    So when you can`t argue with the message, you attack the messenger?
    Of course the messenger matters. Why wouldn't it?
    Ron Paul: "For those who have asked, I freely confess that Jesus Christ is my personal Savior, and that I seek His guidance in all that I do."

  16. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by BlackTerrel View Post
    Of course the messenger matters. Why wouldn't it?
    I have no doubt that Christ would not be happy with some churches or religious organizations.
    I don't need an atheist comedian to tell me that.
    I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
    So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom



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  18. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    This is why Presbyterianism is the best form of church government. It provides the accountability that all nondenominational churches lack without the tyranny of the RCC and Episcopal style church governments.
    I haven't studied their structure but I will check it out.

    Sure, as a a good reformed guy I believe we are constrained by God and conscience before the teachings of men. That doesn't mean teaching on doctrine and practice doesn't play a very important role in the church. A common misconception of the reformation is that it rebuked church authority. That's not entirely correct as you simply can't have cohesion as a body without some authority being vested in leadership. What the reformer's rejected was the church's absolute authority. I think the Corinthians passage says a lot about finding ways to be obedient to both God and men when it comes to smaller issues. That is, you don't obey men just for the sake of it, but rather for the unity of the body as long as you can do so in good conscience.
    If everybody is esteeming his brother higher then himself (including so called "leaders") and prayerfully seeking the guidance of the Holy Spirit and letting the Spirit produce the fruits of the Spirit in them (love, joy, peace, patience, gentleness, goodness, faith), unity ceases to be an issue. The vast majority of the time, leadership issues have more to do with men asserting themselves than with any legitimate "need" for leadership. Solomon said that one of the creatures he found astonishing was the locust because, without any leader, they were able to assemble themselves in ranks and go forward like a mighty army. The Spirit of God could accomplish the same thing in the body of Christ if not for human pride in the leaders and human fear in the followers.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  19. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Appleseed View Post
    Aren't Christians suppozed to sell all their pozetions
    And you're basing that on......? Jesus told that specifically to the rich young ruler for his own benefit. But that was not a general command. Yes many early believers did sell what they had and shared equally. But it wasn't a requirement.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  20. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    Going further with the body analogy, Paul identified Christ as the head of the church. (Ephesians 5:23). And in 1 Corinthians 12 he made it clear that the different parts of the body shouldn't act like they are more important than the other. Instead most modern Christian sects are organized with humans at the head. TER brought up the apostles coming together to make decisions about doctrine. That is true. But it's clear from Paul's writings that he didn't feel bound by those decisions. The council in Jerusalem declared that the new believers should abstain from meat offered to idols. Paul declared that "an idol is nothing" but said that he would abstain from meat offered to idols if it would cause his brother to stumble. In other words he was more constrained by not wanting to cause confusion among a new believer than he was by edicts from Jerusalem or any other council.
    I disagree jmdrake. In fact, I think you quite miss the point of St. Paul regarding the faithful being members of one Body, each assigned with different roles, not by matter of importance per say, but of appointment in service to the Body. Thus, St. Paul says:

    For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into[a] one Spirit. 14 For in fact the body is not one member but many.

    15 If the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I am not of the body,” is it therefore not of the body? 16 And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I am not of the body,” is it therefore not of the body? 17 If the whole body were an eye, where would be the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where would be the smelling? 18 But now God has set the members, each one of them, in the body just as He pleased. 19 And if they were all one member, where would the body be?

    20 But now indeed there are many members, yet one body. 21 And the eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you”; nor again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.” 22 No, much rather, those members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary. 23 And those members of the body which we think to be less honorable, on these we bestow greater honor; and our unpresentable parts have greater modesty, 24 but our presentable parts have no need. But God composed the body, having given greater honor to that part which lacks it, 25 that there should be no schism in the body, but that the members should have the same care for one another. 26 And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; or if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.

    27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually. 28 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues.
    So we see, that God has appointed FIRST Apostles, SECOND prophets, THIRD teachers,... There is most certainly a hierarchy in the Body of the Christ. This is easily seen in the writings of St. Paul and the earliest Christians (most poignant in the description of the Kingdom by St. John the Theologian in his Book of Revelation) as well as easily apparent in the structure of the early Church where elders (bishops) and presbyters (priests) were ordained and placed as leaders of the flock in the various cities.

    Christ of course is the Head, and the others members each having their own role and gifts. St. Paul even goes so far as to list the various roles and in another place, the various gifts given to each member according to God's good pleasure.

    St. Paul admonishes the churches in his epistles to hold fast to the teachings they have been handed by those who have the authority and grace to be called teachers, and that they should obey the teachers amongst them. Your assessment of St. Paul's obedience to the First Council of Jerusalem is inaccurate. St. Paul, as did all the Apostles, obeyed the decision that was 'good to them and the Spirit', and most certainly taught his disciples to obey any such pronouncements. Indeed, the Council held as orthodox the teaching of St. Paul above St. Peter in that particular matter, and St. Paul as well as St. Peter humbly accepted this as the working of the Holy Spirit and submitted to it as if it came from the lips of Jesus Christ.
    Last edited by TER; 03-10-2012 at 02:52 PM.
    +
    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ

  21. #108

  22. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Appleseed View Post
    Aren't Christians suppozed to sell all their pozetions
    We must remember that in Luke 12:33, Christ does not say one should sell 'all their possessions'. The only time Christ said that was to the rich young man when Christ told him 'If you wish to be perfect...'

    Note, Christ already told the young man what to do if he wished to be saved and gain eternal life, which included chastity, poverty and obedience. But to be perfect and to be considered great in the Kingdom of Heaven (for indeed, there will be in the Kingdom those who will be considered greater then others), then one should sell all their possession and give it to the poor and follow Him. And this is exactly what St. Anthony the Great did which spawned the monastic movement in the early Church.
    Last edited by TER; 03-10-2012 at 03:06 PM.
    +
    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ

  23. #110
    Last edited by Johnny Appleseed; 03-11-2012 at 08:36 AM.

  24. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Appleseed View Post
    so your saying me with little more than a pick up truck full of crap to my name is going to be closer to God in heave n than Joel Ovalteen?
    Depends, do you have faith in Jesus Christ? If you do and he doesn't, then yes.

    Do you idolize your truck? If so, then no.
    Last edited by eduardo89; 03-10-2012 at 03:47 PM.

  25. #112
    Last edited by Johnny Appleseed; 03-11-2012 at 07:04 PM.



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  27. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by TER View Post
    I disagree jmdrake. In fact, I think you quite miss the point of St. Paul regarding the faithful being members of one Body, each assigned with different roles, not by matter of importance per say, but of appointment in service to the Body. Thus, St.
    Ummm.....where's your point of disagreement?

    Paul says:
    Technical note. Please when you quote something put it in italics instead of in quote tags because when you put it in quote tags and I then quote you it disappears. Not a biggie, just an irritation.


    So we see, that God has appointed FIRST Apostles, SECOND prophets, THIRD teachers,... There is most certainly a hierarchy in the Body of the Christ.
    I disagree with that interpretation. Look at verse 28 again. Note that the order of listing isn't necessarily the order of importance.


    28And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.


    The government of the church is listed next to last. Now that fits some Baptist church hierarchies where the deacon board actually runs the church and can hire and fire the pastor, but not the Catholic structure. (I'm not sure about the orthodox structure). Giving absolute power to the people supposedly at the "top" is not what Jesus desired.

    Edit: I believe that verse makes better sense when one understands the definition of "apostle".

    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/apostle
    1 : one sent on a mission: as
    a : one of an authoritative New Testament group sent out to preach the gospel and made up especially of Christ's 12 original disciples and Paul
    b : the first prominent Christian missionary to a region or group
    2 a : a person who initiates a great moral reform or who first advocates an important belief or system
    b : an ardent supporter : adherent
    3 : the highest ecclesiastical official in some church organizations
    4 : one of a Mormon administrative council of 12 men


    If you consider definition 1-b: the first prominent Christian missionary to a region or group (as in Paul the apostle to the Gentiles Romans 11:13) then verse 28 can be interpreted this way:

    God first sends missionaries to set up a church, then prophets to give guidance to the church, then teachers to instruct the church, then after that miracle workers, healers, administrators, helpers and interpreters.

    The order has more to do with the order in which things get done as opposed to the order of importance.

    Further Paul makes it clear that it is our human weakness that asserts some gifts are more important or "honorable" than others.

    22Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:

    23And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.


    This is easily seen in the writings of St. Paul and the earliest Christians (most poignant in the description of the Kingdom by St. John the Theologian in his Book of Revelation) as well as easily apparent in the structure of the early Church where elders (bishops) and presbyters (priests) were ordained and placed as leaders of the flock in the various cities.
    I have found no reference to priests anywhere in the New Testament except for Jewish priests and Jesus in heaven. And the church elders were not the bishops. The bishops were the bishops. In previous discussions I asked you and others of the Catholic/Orthodox persuasion to come of with 1 verse that definitively pointed to an earthly Christian priesthood in any version of the Bible. Maximus made a claim that "elder" meant "priest". Yet even the Catholic Bible I found online didn't support that assertion. Now you're saying that "elder" = "bishop" when the word "bishop" stands on its own and when Maximus already tried to use "elder" for "priest"? That just doesn't make sense.

    Still, I think you're missing the point of 1 Corinthians 12. I believe you are confusing church office for spiritual gifts. Someone can be appointed a priest or a bishop (or a pastor or a church president) and not have that spiritual gift. On the other hand, God can give any gift including apostleship to someone totally looked over by the church hierarchy. Such is what happened with the apostle Paul himself. Peter and the other 11 chose Mathias to be the replacement of Judas Iscariot. I'm sure Mathias did some important things, but probably 90% of Christians have never heard of him. On the other hand God picked and affirmed Paul without any human intervention. When Jesus was still ministering on earth the disciples were jealous of some men who were outside of their group and were casting out demons in Jesus name. Jesus rebuked the disciples.

    Mark 9:38-40
    38And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.

    39But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.

    40For he that is not against us is on our part.


    Where did this man fit in the "church hierarchy"? Those who are "born of the Spirit" are directed by God, not man.

    John 3:8
    The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.


    I used to think John 3:8 was talking about how you couldn't tell where the Spirit was coming from or going to. But now I see this is talking about one born of the Spirit. If you read Acts you will see that sometimes Luke would report that they wanted to go to one city but the Spirit refused them. Sometimes through a dream. Sometimes through a prevailing wind. The ships in those days had square sails. Unlike later triangular sails, these ships were constrained by the wind. Jesus was telling Nicodemus that a born again Christian is like a ship with a square sail. The Holy Spirit will tell that Christian where to come and go. A church body may give a suggestion. But one truly born of the Spirit will ultimately be led by the Spirit. The purpose of the church is to connect the new believer to the Spirit and let the Spirit direct him. Instead too many churches "disciple" members the way Pharisees discipled converts who ended up even more demonic. It's like when Paul tried to fix the mess at Corinthians where some said they were of "Paul" and others were of "Apollos" and others of "Cephas". Those believers had connected to man and not to God.
    Last edited by jmdrake; 03-11-2012 at 05:17 PM.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

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    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

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    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  28. #114

  29. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by JuicyG View Post
    Harmful to the faithful? Like the gospel of Magdalene? Since when is truth harmful?

    Funny because Magdalene was Jesus` favorite apostle and she didn`t make it into the final cut.

    They`ve painted her as some cheap whore and totally hijacked Jesus` message and the big role she played.
    I was wondering when someone was going to mention the Gospel of Mary Magdalene
    Indianensis Universitatis Alumnus

  30. #116
    So we see, that God has appointed FIRST Apostles, SECOND prophets, THIRD teachers,... There is most certainly a hierarchy in the Body of the Christ.

    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    I disagree with that interpretation. Look at verse 28 again. Note that the order of listing isn't necessarily the order of importance.
    Of course you would, jmdrake, because otherwise it would go against everything you've been taught! Nonetheless, that is exactly what St. Paul means and that order is INDEED important, which is exactly why St. Paul enumerated the list.

    The government of the church is listed next to last. Now that fits some Baptist church hierarchies where the deacon board actually runs the church and can hire and fire the pastor, but not the Catholic structure. (I'm not sure about the orthodox structure). Giving absolute power to the people supposedly at the "top" is not what Jesus desired.
    Jmdrake, you state the 'government of the church is listed next to last', putting bold emphasis on the position (even after trying to make an argument that the order means nothing). You cant, my friend, have it both ways.

    But to those who adhere to the original understanding of St. Paul's epistles, that is to those who are members of the SAME Church in Corinth which by the way has existed continuously from the day St. Paul wrote it until the present day (it happens to be a Greek Orthodox Church), St. Paul places the Apostles FIRST, and then the PROPHETS, and then the rest.

    But your argument is regarding the relative position of the administrators of the Church, and what exactly is your point? Is the secretary of the Church greater then the Apostles? Is the treasurer of the Church greater then the Prophets? Is the person who went and cooked the prosphora (bread offering used in the Eucharist meal) greater then the presbyter who prayed over the Bread and served It? There indeed is a hierarchy of service and leadership, with Christ of course as the Head.

    But this does not mean that those laity who assist in the administrative duties of the Church are not important because they are listed after the Apostles and Prophets. Not only are they important, they are necessary! In fact, St. Paul himself mentioned the administrators because they are necessary. But yet you still believe their was no structure or hierarchy to the Church from the beginning. How much proof do you need?


    Edit: I believe that verse makes better sense when one understands the definition of "apostle".

    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/apostle
    1 : one sent on a mission: as
    a : one of an authoritative New Testament group sent out to preach the gospel and made up especially of Christ's 12 original disciples and Paul
    b : the first prominent Christian missionary to a region or group
    2 a : a person who initiates a great moral reform or who first advocates an important belief or system
    b : an ardent supporter : adherent
    3 : the highest ecclesiastical official in some church organizations
    4 : one of a Mormon administrative council of 12 men


    If you consider definition 1-b: the first prominent Christian missionary to a region or group (as in Paul the apostle to the Gentiles Romans 11:13) then verse 28 can be interpreted this way:

    God first sends missionaries to set up a church, then prophets to give guidance to the church, then teachers to instruct the church, then after that miracle workers, healers, administrators, helpers and interpreters.

    The order has more to do with the order in which things get done as opposed to the order of importance.

    Further Paul makes it clear that it is our human weakness that asserts some gifts are more important or "honorable" than others.

    22Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:

    23And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.
    Here you are using jmdrake's interpretation which unfortunately is not consistent with the interpretation of the Church or with the Church Fathers. Now, if you are right, then the Church and all the Church Fathers are wrong. You are an extremely bright person and faithful Christian, of this I have no doubt, but I am inclined to give more credence to the Church and the Church Fathers over you. I think you can understand why. After all, I put their voice of interpretation above my own, and for good reason.

    I have found no reference to priests anywhere in the New Testament except for Jewish priests and Jesus in heaven. And the church elders were not the bishops. The bishops were the bishops. In previous discussions I asked you and others of the Catholic/Orthodox persuasion to come of with 1 verse that definitively pointed to an earthly Christian priesthood in any version of the Bible. Maximus made a claim that "elder" meant "priest". Yet even the Catholic Bible I found online didn't support that assertion. Now you're saying that "elder" = "bishop" when the word "bishop" stands on its own and when Maximus already tried to use "elder" for "priest"? That just doesn't make sense.
    This is actually an excellent opportunity for a learning point, and I thank you for bringing this up. I hope I can clear this up.

    The first mention of bishops occurs in Acts 1:20 with the word episkope (episcopal) which is literally "bishopric" and refers to the apostolic position of overseer. Indeed, the Apostles were the first Bishops (overseers), and indeed, they were presbyters (elders). You see, a Bishop is the top presbyter of the city (note the hierarchy), in other words, the head of the elders. Let's try to unpack this...

    When it came time to find another Apostle, that is, another overseer with the grace of being an Apostle (overseer), they chose Mathias. Now, Mathias may seem like some random person to you because he was not specifically mentioned in the Gospels, but that does not mean this man was not a well known and respected disciple of Christ. In fact, he was one of the seventy called by Christ and fulfilled the requirements to be called an Apostle according to Acts 1:21: he "accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out amongst us, beginning from the baptism of John to that day when He was taken up from us, ... a witness with us of His resurrection." Mathias may not be recognized by 90% of Christians today, but he most certainly was known to the majority of faithful in Jesus' day, even before he was selected to take up the place of the accursed Judas. If one studies the history of the Church, one would learn that Mathias the Apostle was born at Bethlehem of the Tribe of Judah and that from his early childhood he studied the Law of God under the guidance of St Simeon the God-receiver (the same Simeon who received the Lord as an infant in the Temple.) He eventually was stoned by the Sanhedrin. For more of his life, here is a link.

    And this brings us to another very important point in demonstrating the hierarchy in the Church. There were in fact many Apostles of Christ, not just the Twelve, (though the Twelve were indeed higher in the hierarchy). Jesus once sent out seventy at one time, and these too were Apostles, all with the power and grace that came with it, healing and performing all types of wonders in His Name. In fact, you should read about the lives of these saints since they are not listed in the New Testament, and therefore, to some modern churches, they may as well have never existed. Indeed, these Apostles traveled across the known world, spreading the Good News, becoming Bishops (oh, there's that word again!) in various cities and regions, and ultimately a great number of them becoming martyrs for the faith. But before giving their lives for the faith, a great number of them conferred the grace of overseer (that is, Bishops!) by the sacrament of laying on the hands, just as was instructed by Christ.

    But wait, you say it is never written in the Bible that Christ told them to lay hands and confer such authority and apostolic succession!

    But you don't really believe everything Christ ever told or instructed His disciples are exclusively written in the pages of the Gospels alone, do you? St. Luke starts Acts by saying 'He through the Holy Spirit had given commandments to the apostles whom He had chosen'. And in the next sentence Christ was 'being seen by them during forty days and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God.'

    He wasn't telling them for forty days how nice the weather was. He was instructing them on how they would build His Church! How they should structure it, how they would chose those who would succeed them and by what manner. How they would resolve differences and how they should worship and pray. Christ was preparing them to build His Church in full knowledge that He was soon to ascend to the Father. Just because St. Luke didn't write down anything He told them those forty days doesn't mean He stood silent and left them with no instructions! And we can discern those instructions easily when we take our blinders off and check our baggage at the door and read the Scriptures and the writings of the Early Church with an open mind and open heart.

    For example, you say:

    In previous discussions I asked you and others of the Catholic/Orthodox persuasion to come of with 1 verse that definitively pointed to an earthly Christian priesthood in any version of the Bible.
    Here are a few to meditate on (by the way, for your education, the word 'elder' in the New Testament is the word 'presbyteros' in the original Greek writings, which was shortened to the word 'prest' and finally known to us in English as 'priest'. So, when you read 'elder' in the New Testament, you are actually reading the word 'priest'

    In fact, the word presbyteros is used interchangeably in the Bible when describing Bishops, Priests or those who presided as leaders of the communities. What did all of these people have in common? They were all priests!

    But anyway here is a short list:

    1 Timothy 5:17

    Let the elders (the original word being presbyter, TER) who rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in the word and doctrine. For the Scripture says, “You shall not muzzle an ox while it treads out the grain,” and, “The laborer is worthy of his wages.” Do not receive an accusation against an elder (the original word being presbyter, TER) except from two or three witnesses. Those who are sinning rebuke in the presence of all, that the rest also may fear.


    Here's a good one!:

    Acts 14:23

    So when they had appointed elders in every church, and prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord in whom they had believed.


    When you read the original Greek, it LITERALLY says: "So when they had cheirotoneo (which literally means 'to ordain by the laying of hands' and is translated in English as 'appointed') presbyterio in every church, and prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord in whom they had believed.

    Here are some more:

    1 Titus 5

    For this reason I left you in Crete, that you should set in order the things that are lacking, and appoint elders (that is, laying on the hands of presbyters, TER) in every city as I commanded you— if a man is blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of dissipation or insubordination. For a bishop must be blameless, as a steward of God, not self-willed, not quick-tempered, not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, but hospitable, a lover of what is good, sober-minded, just, holy, self-controlled, holding fast the faithful word as he has been taught, that he may be able, by sound doctrine, both to exhort and convict those who contradict.


    But anyway, I have done enough babbling. If you want to learn about the orders and structure of the Church from someone who knows MUCH more then I will ever know about the Church Christ established, read the writings of St. Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch from AD 67-107, who wrote extensively about the presence of the four orders in church government during the very heart of the New Testament era. Indeed, to the church at Philadelphia he writes of 'Christians [laity] at one with the bishop and the presbyters and the deacons".

    How much more proof do you need?
    Last edited by TER; 03-11-2012 at 10:51 PM.
    +
    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ

  31. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by TER View Post
    Mathias may not be recognized by 90% of Christians today, but he most certainly was known to the majority of faithful in Jesus' day, even before he was selected to take up the place of the accursed Judas.
    Why "accursed"? Could it not be argued that he played a legitimate and important role in God's Plan? Someone had to fulfill Matthew 26:23, yes? /curious
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  32. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    Why "accursed"? Could it not be argued that he played a legitimate and important role in God's Plan? Someone had to fulfill Matthew 26:23, yes? /curious
    That is a very new interpretation made fashionable as of late but finds its roots from certain gnostic heresies and texts. For example, the Gospel of Judas, which was never for one second considered inspired or authoritative at any time in the history of the Church.

    He was indeed accursed as far as the early Church is concerned. This idea that Judas served the Lord and fulfilled some predestined charge is nowhere found in the writings of the Church Fathers, where he is described exactly as that: accursed.

    Judas betrayed Christ not because he was to fulfill some plan, but because of the evil in his heart. Did that mean God did not know what he would do? No, in fact, Christ specifically mentions how one will betray Him, indeed which one at that. That being said, just because Christ had foreknowledge doesn t mean He destined Judas to do what he did. That is the Orthodox belief which goes back from the beginning.
    Last edited by TER; 03-11-2012 at 10:19 PM.
    +
    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ

  33. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by TER View Post
    That is a very new interpretation made fashionable as of late but finds its roots from certain gnostic heresies and texts. For example, the Gospel of Judas, which was never for one second considered inspired or authoritative at any time in the history of the Church.

    He was indeed accursed as far as the early Church is concerned. This idea that Judas served the Lord and fulfilled some predestined charge is nowhere found in the writings of the Church Fathers, where he is described exactly as that: accursed.

    Judas betrayed Christ not because he was to fulfill some plan, but because of the evil in his heart. Did that mean God did not know what he would do? No, in fact, Christ specifically mentions how one will betray Him, indeed which one at that. That being said, just because Christ had foreknowledge doesn t mean He destined Judas to do what he did. That is the Orthodox belief which goes back from the beginning.
    Thanks. Can you suggest some more detailed reading on the Orthodox view of Judas?
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  34. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    Thanks. Can you suggest some more detailed reading on the Orthodox view of Judas?
    Let me see what I can dig up.
    +
    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ



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