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Thread: Were The Founders "Statists" or "Anarchists"?

  1. #1

    Were The Founders "Statists" or "Anarchists"?

    or were they something else?

    "The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the Constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first." Thomas Jefferson.
    Last edited by jct74; 04-25-2016 at 08:51 PM.
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." - Albert Einstein

    "for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. - Thomas Jefferson.



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  3. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by HVACTech View Post
    "The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the Constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first." Thomas Jefferson.
    All modern revolutions have ended in a reinforcement of the power of the State.
    -Albert Camus

  4. #3
    They founded a massive state. So they were statists.

  5. #4
    Actually, they did not, erowe. A limited Constitutional government is not massive at all. The problem is that too many people sat on the sidelines and allowed those occupying our government to exceed their constitutional authority.
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  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyEagle View Post
    Actually, they did not, erowe. A limited Constitutional government is not massive at all. The problem is that too many people sat on the sidelines and allowed those occupying our government to exceed their constitutional authority.
    It's a fine fairy tale you tell yourself, but consider it took all of two years for the new constitutional government to pass the whiskey tax, and three years after that before the constitutional government formed a literal army to go collect it... when there was, and to this day still is, clearly no constitutional authority for the tax to begin with.

    Then on to Adams and the Alien and Sedition acts... two things you folks are abjectly unfamiliar with.... Jefferson and the Louisiana Purchase, among other things....

    Like I said, it's a great fairy tale, and in my youth I would gaze out my window and wish upon a star that the constitution would be followed, complete with singing crickets and everything.

    I learned some history, and then I grew up.
    There are no crimes against people.
    There are only crimes against the state.
    And the state will never, ever choose to hold accountable its agents, because a thing can not commit a crime against itself.

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyEagle View Post
    Actually, they did not, erowe. A limited Constitutional government is not massive at all. The problem is that too many people sat on the sidelines and allowed those occupying our government to exceed their constitutional authority.
    You forgot the 1. erowe1 is pretty particular about that number.
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  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by otherone View Post
    yah, I really like the guy. I first saw this, as a young man under the rotunda.

    the engineering school that I went to was nearby.. I was learning about HVAC/R controls at the time..
    I was doing my BEST to become a tyrant over HVAC systems.. what was this man speaking of, when he said.
    "every form of tyranny over the mind of man." as an aspiring TYRANT. you can bet that I took notice..

    "for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." Thomas Jefferson.

    respectfully submitted sir.
    why did he say it in this manner?
    was he talking about ignorance or obfuscation?
    Last edited by HVACTech; 04-25-2016 at 08:57 PM. Reason: clarity.
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." - Albert Einstein

    "for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. - Thomas Jefferson.

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by fisharmor View Post
    It's a fine fairy tale you tell yourself, but consider it took all of two years for the new constitutional government to pass the whiskey tax, and three years after that before the constitutional government formed a literal army to go collect it... when there was, and to this day still is, clearly no constitutional authority for the tax to begin with.

    Then on to Adams and the Alien and Sedition acts... two things you folks are abjectly unfamiliar with.... Jefferson and the Louisiana Purchase, among other things....

    Like I said, it's a great fairy tale, and in my youth I would gaze out my window and wish upon a star that the constitution would be followed, complete with singing crickets and everything.

    I learned some history, and then I grew up.
    you missed quite a few things fishyone.
    like, what time frame are you referencing? In your magnificent mind, which "version" of the "CONstitution" are you speaking of?

    are you aware sir, that "amendments" are modifiers, to the original document?

    in political theory, "Modifiers" can change the meaning, but not the intent of the original.
    Last edited by HVACTech; 04-25-2016 at 09:06 PM.
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." - Albert Einstein

    "for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. - Thomas Jefferson.



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  11. #9
    Neither.

    Some were revolutionaries, others were counter revolutionaries.

    Anti Federalists who wanted to move foward with the radical vision laid out in the Declaration of Independence.

    Federalists who wanted to walk back what was laid out as being too extreme.

    The counter revolutionaries won the day, sadly.

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    Neither.

    Some were revolutionaries, others were counter revolutionaries.

    Anti Federalists who wanted to move foward with the radical vision laid out in the Declaration of Independence.

    Federalists who wanted to walk back what was laid out as being too extreme.

    The counter revolutionaries won the day, sadly.
    sigh, you know AF..
    I succeeded in becoming a TYRANT when it comes to HVAC/R controls. one of the things that I learned along the way..
    is that you cannot control something that you do not understand.

    "Cavitation" has to be controlled in HVAC work. and is the opposite of "surge pressure" AF.

    what was "laid out" in the DOI. was not radical. or even a point of contention for the founders. why do you consider it thus?
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." - Albert Einstein

    "for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. - Thomas Jefferson.

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    Neither.

    Some were revolutionaries, others were counter revolutionaries.

    Anti Federalists who wanted to move foward with the radical vision laid out in the Declaration of Independence.

    Federalists who wanted to walk back what was laid out as being too extreme.

    The counter revolutionaries won the day, sadly.
    I see the rat

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    Neither.

    Some were revolutionaries, others were counter revolutionaries.

    Anti Federalists who wanted to move foward with the radical vision laid out in the Declaration of Independence.

    Federalists who wanted to walk back what was laid out as being too extreme.

    The counter revolutionaries won the day, sadly.
    You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Anti Federalist again.
    Someone plz +rep my brother AF.
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  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    Someone plz +rep my brother AF.
    seriously? do you really think that what was "laid out" in the DOI was a point of contention..
    or even a point of disagreement among our founders?


    BOTH of you have been here for 9 years and have made multiple thousands of posts...

    @AF Federalists who wanted to walk back what was laid out as being too extreme.

    do either of you, have any evidence for this absurd claim? which founder opposed the DOI?
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." - Albert Einstein

    "for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. - Thomas Jefferson.

  16. #14
    They were wrong to not give the US a monarchy.
    NeoReactionary. American High Tory.

    The counter-revolution will not be televised.

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by HVACTech View Post
    sigh, you know AF..
    I succeeded in becoming a TYRANT when it comes to HVAC/R controls. one of the things that I learned along the way..
    is that you cannot control something that you do not understand.

    "Cavitation" has to be controlled in HVAC work. and is the opposite of "surge pressure" AF.

    what was "laid out" in the DOI. was not radical. or even a point of contention for the founders. why do you consider it thus?
    What's cavitation got to do with anything?

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by ThePaleoLibertarian View Post
    They were wrong to not give the US a monarchy.
    Right, because Monarchies have a stellar history of bestowing liberty upon the world.
    "The Patriarch"



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  20. #17
    I'd say Jefferson was an anarchist confined by the system he was born into. And yeah, that's my opinion, I have nothing to back it up. Mostly because I don't feel like finding any sources today.

    One thing I am quite sure about. The founding fathers were not pumps.
    "I am a bird"

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    What's cavitation got to do with anything?
    Sir, have you not begun to discern what he is cryptically and obviously telling us, sir?
    Sir....the founders weren't MASONS...they were all HVAC technicians, SIR.
    All modern revolutions have ended in a reinforcement of the power of the State.
    -Albert Camus

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by HVACTech View Post
    seriously? do you really think that what was "laid out" in the DOI was a point of contention..
    or even a point of disagreement among our founders?


    BOTH of you have been here for 9 years and have made multiple thousands of posts...

    @AF Federalists who wanted to walk back what was laid out as being too extreme.

    do either of you, have any evidence for this absurd claim? which founder opposed the DOI?
    Alexander Hamilton

    promoted standing armies,
    subsidies,
    government bonds,
    tarriffs,
    mercantilism,
    fiat currency,
    planned economy,
    central bank,
    defender of a robust executive,
    use of military to round up tax protesters.


    Hamiltonian mercantilism is essentially the economic and political system that Americans have lived under for several generations now: a king-like president who rules through "executive orders" and disregards any and all constitutional constraints on his powers; state governments that are mere puppets of the central government; corporate welfare run amok, especially in light of the most recent outrage, the Wall Street Plutocrat Bailout Bill; a $10 trillion national debt ($70 trillion if one counts the government's unfunded liabilities); a perpetual boom-and-bust cycle caused by the Wizard of Oz–like central planners at the Fed; constant military aggression around the world that only seems to benefit defense contractors and other beneficiaries of the warfare state; and more than half of the population bribed with subsidies of every kind imaginable to support the never-ending growth of the state.



    This is Hamilton's curse on America — a curse that must be exorcized if there is to be any hope of resurrecting American freedom and prosperity.
    https://mises.org/library/founding-father-crony-capitalism

    Last edited by presence; 04-26-2016 at 07:59 AM.

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  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    What's cavitation got to do with anything?
    we discussed it awhile back and I was surprised that you did not even know what it was.
    being a sailor and all.
    @HVACTech. is that you cannot control something that you do not understand.
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." - Albert Einstein

    "for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. - Thomas Jefferson.

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by otherone View Post
    Sir, have you not begun to discern what he is cryptically and obviously telling us, sir?
    Sir....the founders weren't MASONS...they were all HVAC technicians, SIR.
    BINGO! we have a winner!!
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." - Albert Einstein

    "for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. - Thomas Jefferson.

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyEagle View Post
    A limited Constitutional government is not massive at all.
    Tell that to the people of North Korea.
    https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Const...h_Korea_(1972)

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by HVACTech View Post
    seriously? do you really think that what was "laid out" in the DOI was a point of contention..
    or even a point of disagreement among our founders?
    Yes. Are you saying it wasn't?

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by luctor-et-emergo View Post
    I'd say Jefferson was an anarchist confined by the system he was born into. And yeah, that's my opinion, I have nothing to back it up.
    You have the Declaration of Independence.



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by ThePaleoLibertarian View Post
    They were wrong to not give the US a monarchy.
    Actually, some had sought that route. Monroe and Hamilton wrote to Prince Henry of Prussia asking him to be the Constitutional monarch. Probably best he didn't accept as they didn't know he was one of the most debauched and notorious homosexuals in Europe at the time.

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by HVACTech View Post
    you missed quite a few things fishyone.
    What did I miss? Was there an even more egregious violation of the constitution earlier than two years after ratification?
    The point that went sailing over your head is this: nobody has ever given a damn what the constitution actually says. There have always been a few minor characters in this farce who pay lip service to it, but they always buckle the moment it's their thing the constitution says they shouldn't do.

    like, what time frame are you referencing? In your magnificent mind, which "version" of the "CONstitution" are you speaking of?
    It literally doesn't matter. Pick a time, any time after ratification, and within two years I'll find you a direct violation of it. It has never stopped anyone from doing anything. If LE is right and obsessive hypervigilance is required to make this system work, then it's an unworkable system.
    In other words, if your state requires 100% of the populace to watch it at all times and all be 100% on the same page about keeping it in its place, or else it grows into a tyrannical monster, then the odds aren't real good for that not happening.

    are you aware sir, that "amendments" are modifiers, to the original document?
    You know, thanks for this, because I was musing yesterday to myself, that you must be some kind of plant, because nobody talks about anarchism on this board more than you do, and there's no such thing as bad press.
    So thanks for this gigantic and completely intractable non-sequitur. You've successfully shocked me back into the knowledge that you simply can't frame an argument.
    There are no crimes against people.
    There are only crimes against the state.
    And the state will never, ever choose to hold accountable its agents, because a thing can not commit a crime against itself.

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by luctor-et-emergo View Post
    I'd say Jefferson was an anarchist confined by the system he was born into. And yeah, that's my opinion, I have nothing to back it up. Mostly because I don't feel like finding any sources today.

    One thing I am quite sure about. The founding fathers were not pumps.
    over here, the word "Anarchist" has very negative connotations. (rightly or wrongly) outside of RPF's.
    is this also true where you live?
    @luctor-et-emergo. The founding fathers were not pumps.

    well, the founders certainly were prime movers.... very much unlike HB34. who just sucks and blows.
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." - Albert Einstein

    "for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. - Thomas Jefferson.

  32. #28
    The founders made the mistake of thinking that the governed would hold the government in check. The people were given the power, but became victims of their own success. Now leisure, complacency, and apathy rule the day.

    The founding fathers were all over the place, but some of the most noteworthy were monarchists, IMO. Even Jefferson believed this and wanted to create provisions for overthrow the government on a frequent basis, meaning he supported government despite its inherent evils... sewing and reaping so to speak.

    IMO, I think the one thing the constitution was missing was an expiry amendment that would nullify all federal law after a set period. This would have given a greater "life span" to the constitution and delayed the required "revolution" process, as the federal government would be heavily occupied by the re-passing of laws that expired every 5 years or so.

    2 benefits to this is that there would be no set law at the federal level, beyond that of the constitution, and that only the "important laws" would be given priority to re-pass. It also coincides with much of the election cycle so the people would have greater opportunity to make quicker adjustments to failing laws, rather than living with bad law for 10-40 years before they are finally changed.

    Amendment 28 - All federal laws shall expire within 5 years of their initial passing, with the exception of those amended to the constitution.

    Would there be unintended consequences? Possibly, but I would be interested in exploring that over this stacking pile of crap we have now.

    Gulag Chief:
    "Article 58-1a, twenty five years... What did you get it for?"
    Gulag Prisoner: "For nothing at all."
    Gulag Chief: "You're lying... The sentence for nothing at all is 10 years"



  33. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by HVACTech View Post
    [B]

    @AF Federalists who wanted to walk back what was laid out as being too extreme.

    do either of you, have any evidence for this absurd claim? which founder opposed the DOI?
    I don't know if saying any founders wanted to "walk back" the DOI is historically accurate but that's not the same as completely opposing it. Perhaps a better perspective is that some founders wanted to continue and build upon the mind set of the DOI (and wanted to stick with the Articles of Confederation) while others did not, and pushed for the US Constitution.

    The Anti-Federalist Papers are an artifact of those who opposed the Constitution.


    General FYI, for suggested reading:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Federalism
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Federalist_Papers
    This site has a specific purpose defined in our Mission Statement.

    Members must read and follow our Community Guidelines.

    I strive to respond to all queries; please excuse late and out-of-sequence responses.

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by fisharmor View Post
    but consider it took all of two years for the new constitutional government to pass the whiskey tax, and three years after that before the constitutional government formed a literal army to go collect it... when there was, and to this day still is, clearly no constitutional authority for the tax to begin with.
    Article I, Section 8, Clause 1 was the authority for the tax.

    I'll grant you the Alien and Sedition Acts, but the LP can be justified by the treaty power.
    We have long had death and taxes as the two standards of inevitability. But there are those who believe that death is the preferable of the two. "At least," as one man said, "there's one advantage about death; it doesn't get worse every time Congress meets."
    Erwin N. Griswold

    Taxes: Of life's two certainties, the only one for which you can get an automatic extension.
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