View Poll Results: A business owner should have the right to kick a cross dresser out of the store.

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  • YES

    26 86.67%
  • NO

    4 13.33%
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Thread: A business owner should have the right to kick a cross dresser out of the store

  1. #1

    A business owner should have the right to kick a cross dresser out of the store

    Say ye??

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...




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  3. #2
    I've been denied service because I wasn't wearing a suit jacket and tie before. Or because I had a collarless shirt. I don't see how this would be different.

  4. #3
    I should have the right to ask anyone to leave , let people smoke cigarettes or whatever .

  5. #4
    Meh. Just make men and women wear burkhas and forget it.
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  6. #5
    I told you what the poll results would be in the other thread, it shouldn't be a surprise that everyone, or nearly everyone here will vote yes - including myself, and probably even the OP of the other thread.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  7. #6
    Just imagine how unruly and terrible a place this great country would be if people could just do what they wanted.

  8. #7
    No shirt, no shoes, no service.
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  9. #8
    We need to remember that that restaurant that some person thinks they own, didn't really build or it. They were dependent on society to make them successful. We need leaders that can make laws so we know the protocol that lower level citizens must abide by.



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Schifference View Post
    We need to remember that that restaurant that some person thinks they own, didn't really build or it. They were dependent on society to make them successful. We need leaders that can make laws so we know the protocol that lower level citizens must abide by.
    Exactly right. They climbed up a ladder made of teachers, professors, and community organizers to reach their level of success.
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  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    I've been denied service because I wasn't wearing a suit jacket and tie before. Or because I had a collarless shirt. I don't see how this would be different.
    I was once denied entry into a nightclub because I wasn't dressed formal enough. Then I got rejected from a nightclub across the street for being dressed too formally.

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    I told you what the poll results would be in the other thread, it shouldn't be a surprise that everyone, or nearly everyone here will vote yes - including myself, and probably even the OP of the other thread.
    so if we concur that a business owner can kick a cross dresser out of the store:

    can a business owner kick a cross dresser out of the birth sex bathroom? the dressed sex bathroom?

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...


  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by NotAnIllegalImmigrant View Post
    I was once denied entry into a nightclub because I wasn't dressed formal enough. Then I got rejected from a nightclub across the street for being dressed too formally.
    They just didn't like Mexicans.
    "The Patriarch"

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    They just didn't like Mexicans.
    I'm transracial.

  16. #14
    Why would a business owner want to get involved in the politics of bathrooms? I think government mandates bathrooms for customers. I don't think if you are a business owner you can say no bathroom. If you cannot elect to not have a bathroom why should you be allowed to decide who uses that bathroom?

  17. #15

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by presence View Post
    so if we concur that a business owner can kick a cross dresser out of the store:

    can a business owner kick a cross dresser out of the birth sex bathroom? the dressed sex bathroom?
    Absolutely - but the other thread asked the question which bathroom should they go in? Now, if they choose the women's room, there is a good chance the owner is going to kick them out of the place of business because they will cause a commotion in their store - however if they use the men's room there will be no commotion, the owner and nobody else will think anything of it. That is why the correct poll choice in the other thread was to suggest they use the men's restroom. The correct poll choice here is "Yes"

    Most businesses would probably try and make the best choice for their business - they don't want to upset their customers by having a blanket ban on these people, but they also don't want to upset customers using the restroom and make them or their children feel uncomfortable. That is why it SHOULD be the business's decision how to handle it, because it allows them to make the decision that their customers will be happiest with and it is a complex issue - if they simply let their own personal opinions rule, or that of any government edicts, they may lose out on a significant customer base.
    Last edited by dannno; 08-31-2016 at 08:44 PM.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."



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  20. #17
    Absolutely - but the other thread asked the question which bathroom should they go in? Now, if they choose the women's room, there is a good chance the owner is going to kick them out of the place of business because they will cause a commotion in their store - however if they use the men's room there will be no commotion
    so what you're saying is its better to wear black when you trespass in your neighbors back yard at night?

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...


  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by presence View Post
    so what you're saying is its better to wear black when you trespass in your neighbors back yard at night?
    Huh? No, that is a ridiculous argument. That's the same as suggesting black people shouldn't visit ANY restaurants because some minority of restaurant owners wouldn't serve black people if they were allowed, so they should just assume that all restaurants don't want to serve black people and they should respect their property and not go to any restaurants, lest a restaurant owner serve somebody they don't want to.

    So unless you have a sign up that says "No trans___ allowed" (which is illegal, but shouldn't be, but even if it was legal most stores would not have them) then why would anybody assume they don't want trans___ people in their stores? You are inviting people into your place of business. You aren't inviting people into your backyard at night.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    So unless you have a sign up that says "No trans___ allowed"
    Click image for larger version. 

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    seems pretty clear to me

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...


  23. #20
    I'm still pissed Hooters won't hire me to be a female waitress. No clue why not.
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  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTexan View Post
    I'm still pissed Hooters won't hire me to be a female waitress. No clue why not.
    Well , three people in this thread voted no , so , if one of them was running Hooters they may dress you up and out you to work ....

  25. #22
    Yes, obviously; a business owner should have the right to kick out anyone for any reason whatsoever.

  26. #23
    On the face of it, no. A patron should not be asked to leave a business simply for cross dressing. There is a very obvious cross dresser in my part of town. I see him once in a while at stores and restaurants, and he is always dressed better than I am.

    As long as a person conducts himself in a courteous and respectful way, and does not violate any other kind of standard (like a dress code), shopping or dining should move forward with no difference in service. Even with a dress code, if a man is dressing as a woman, then the dress code for a woman would apply.

    I'm in the service industry, and it just does not pay to make a big deal about how people dress. So-called Libertarians should be more about being the best in their products and services and less about trying to control how other people act.

    Disclaimer: I did not read the other thread. I saw the title at lunch and was not going to wreck a decent lunch on something like that.
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  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by euphemia View Post
    On the face of it, no. A patron should not be asked to leave a business simply for cross dressing. There is a very obvious cross dresser in my part of town. I see him once in a while at stores and restaurants, and he is always dressed better than I am.

    As long as a person conducts himself in a courteous and respectful way, and does not violate any other kind of standard (like a dress code), shopping or dining should move forward with no difference in service. Even with a dress code, if a man is dressing as a woman, then the dress code for a woman would apply.

    I'm in the service industry, and it just does not pay to make a big deal about how people dress. So-called Libertarians should be more about being the best in their products and services and less about trying to control how other people act.

    Disclaimer: I did not read the other thread. I saw the title at lunch and was not going to wreck a decent lunch on something like that.
    I have not seen any other threads on this subject either, but I have to ask you, why should a property owner be denied the right to control access to their own property?



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by euphemia View Post
    Even with a dress code, if a man is dressing as a woman, then the dress code for a woman would apply.
    why wouldn't the dress code for a man apply?

    who decides what dress code applies? you? the customer? the government? the proprietor?

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...


  30. #26
    I think the question prompting the poll here is that some women have "transitioned" and look like men, at least at first glance. I did not look at that thread before I responded to the poll.

    I think we run into problems when we start making everything a private property right. Does property ownership make it okay to judge people on how they look? What if a property owner does not like how you look? What if that business serves a rare niche that you need? If I own a pharmacy, for example, would I have the right to deny service to you when your insurance requires they use only my pharmacy? Or if I owned the only grocery in town, should I be able to deny service to you, who might be there to buy some soup for a sick neighbor? You come into my establishment, behave respectfully, conduct your business, pay for the good or service, and then go on your way. My liberty has to honor your liberty. Liberty is nothing if we don't believe in liberty for all.
    #NashvilleStrong

    “I’m a doctor. That’s a baby.”~~~Dr. Manny Sethi

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by euphemia View Post
    Does property ownership make it okay to judge people on how they look?
    Do I need a permit for that?

    What if a property owner does not like how you look? What if that business serves a rare niche that you need?
    When I need something from a rabbi I wear a little beanie hat on my head right?

    If I own a pharmacy, for example, would I have the right to deny service to you when your insurance requires they use only my pharmacy?
    YES. The whole notion of insurance and dedicated pharmacies I suspect would quickly collapse if uncle didn't regulate and license white powders distribution... but I suppose thats another issue for another thread.

    Or if I owned the only grocery in town, should I be able to deny service to you, who might be there to buy some soup for a sick neighbor?
    YES. Just because I want to sell things at some cost to my friends doesn't mean I want to sell them at all to you.

    You come into my establishment, behave respectfully
    What if I personally consider cross dressing extremely disrespectful and a bane on my business?

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...


  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by euphemia View Post
    I think the question prompting the poll here is that some women have "transitioned" and look like men, at least at first glance. I did not look at that thread before I responded to the poll.

    I think we run into problems when we start making everything a private property right.
    I think we run into problems when we annihilate the right of property via taxation legislation theft or regulation.

    Does property ownership make it okay to judge people on how they look?
    "Okay" is not a legal term. There are plenty of things that are not "okay" that should not be illegal. Also, the right to determine that happens on your own property is not subject to "okayness." It is never "okay" to judge anyone for any reason, yet it is always correct to control who does and does not have access to your own property, even when such standards are not "okay" by you or me.

    What if a property owner does not like how you look?
    It's HIS property, he can do what he wants.

    What if that business serves a rare niche that you need?
    Sounds like a grand business opportunity.

    If I own a pharmacy, for example, would I have the right to deny service to you when your insurance requires they use only my pharmacy?
    There is no such thing as prescriptions can only be filled at a specific pharmacy.

    Or if I owned the only grocery in town,
    Sounds like a grand business opportunity.

    should I be able to deny service to you,
    100% yes. It's your property, you should be free to do what you want, even if I think it's stupid.

    who might be there to buy some soup for a sick neighbor?
    NO SOUP FOR YOU!

    Why would it matter if my intent was to buy soup for a sick neighbor or to buy cards for a poker game? If you can police good intents then you can police bad intents too. You just opened the door to federal regulations punishing you for bad intentions.

    You come into my establishment, behave respectfully, conduct your business, pay for the good or service, and then go on your way. My liberty has to honor your liberty.
    Good for you, it's your property, you can do what you want with it.

    Liberty is nothing if we don't believe in liberty for all.
    ....including shop owners.

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by GunnyFreedom View Post
    I have not seen any other threads on this subject either, but I have to ask you, why should a property owner be denied the right to control access to their own property?
    This gets to the heart of the actual answer, which is that it should be up to the property owner whether he wants anyone at all on his property, irrespective of how those folks may be dressed.

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by A Son of Liberty View Post
    This gets to the heart of the actual answer, which is that it should be up to the property owner whether he wants anyone at all on his property, irrespective of how those folks may be dressed.
    Exactly. And the rules should be the same whether you own a business or not. I hate the argument that your business is in the "public domain" therefore it can be regulated differently. The world is full of busybodies who want to tell business owners how to run their business, except when it's time to pay for expenses like payrolls. Then it's the business owner's full responsibility. Ha!

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