GM To Cut 14,700 Jobs And Close Plants In North America

[Swordsmyth]

ImI sure that there's a statist solution for this. @Swordsmyth ?

To what?

If you are referring to the OP then the solution is to keep fighting back in the trade war, take away GM's corporate welfare and cut taxes and regulations.

[Dr.3D]

Why are tariffs the best form of taxation? Is that just some cliche you heard someplace? Because people have no idea they are paying the taxes? Is it the illusion that foreign companies are paying them and not us? "No- we aren't taxing you! China is going to pay for the tariffs." Trump claimed. (We are the ones actually paying them- with higher prices, lower wages, and fewer jobs).

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...924-story.html



If hiding taxes is the goal, yes, they are the best.

Zippy, people have no choice when it comes to paying income taxes. They have a choice, not to buy the products they think are too expensive. That means, they don't have to pay the "tariff tax" if they chose not to buy those products.

At least with tariffs, people have a choice not to pay them.

[Zippyjuan]

Tariffs are one of the best forms of taxation because they penalize consumption instead of production and because the consumer can avoid them by either buying American or saving the money, they are better than a sales tax because they have beneficial side effects that protect strategic industries so that the UScan't be subjected to world government.

Income taxes reduce incomes so people have less income to spend on goods and services. That reduces consumption.
Sales taxes reduce consumption by raising the price the consumer has to pay.
Tariffs reduce consumption by raising the price the consumer has to pay.

All reductions in consumption hurt production. Unless people are not buying it, there is no need to produce it. So all taxes hurt production.

Tariffs also hurt production by raising the costs of their inputs to produce their goods. The steel and aluminum tariffs raised the prices of steel and aluminum for companies which use those materials in their production.

that protect strategic industries

Yes, the do let the government pick winners and losers in the economy. They are the opposite of free market taxes.

the consumer can avoid them by either buying American or saving the money,

The tariffs are hidden. The consumer has no clue what if any part of what they buy is covered by a tariff so they are unable to choose non- tariff goods.

[Zippyjuan]

Zippy, people have no choice when it comes to paying income taxes. They have a choice, not to buy the products they think are too expensive. That means, they don't have to pay the "tariff tax" if they chose not to buy those products.

At least with tariffs, people have a choice not to pay them.

Go to the store. Tell me which items have and don't have tariffs so we can know which products to avoid.

[Dr.3D]

Go to the store. Tell me which items have and don't have tariffs so we can know which products to avoid.

Just buy the product you can afford and like the best. If it's too expensive, don't buy it.

If everything on the shelf is too expensive, it won't sell and that will be incentive for people to find a way to make it cheaper. That in turn increases jobs in this country as they start making the product in this country thus avoiding the tariff.

[Swordsmyth]

Income taxes reduce incomes so people have less income to spend on goods and services. That reduces consumption.
Sales taxes reduce consumption by raising the price the consumer has to pay.
Tariffs reduce consumption by raising the price the consumer has to pay.

All reductions in consumption hurt production. Unless people are not buying it, there is no need to produce it. So all taxes hurt production.

Tariffs also hurt production by raising the costs of their inputs to produce their goods. The steel and aluminum tariffs raised the prices of steel and aluminum for companies which use those materials in their production.

The income tax is a tax on production, you pay it whether you buy anything or not and therefore you are discouraged from producing more than with other taxes, if you buy domestic goods you can limit or avoid how much you pay in tariffs and people know when the tariffs are raised or lowered and industries can advertise that rising prices are due to tariff increases.

Yes, the do let the government pick winners and losers in the economy. They are the opposite of free market taxes.

The government does that with any kind of tax but at least with tariffs it serves a national defense purpose.

The tariffs are hidden. The consumer has no clue what if any part of what they buy is covered by a tariff so they are unable to choose non- tariff goods.

The industries can inform people about the tariffs and the income tax is totally unfelt thanks to withholding.

[Zippyjuan]

The income tax is a tax on production, you pay it whether you buy anything or not and therefore you are discouraged from producing more than with other taxes, if you buy domestic goods you can limit or avoid how much you pay in tariffs and people know when the tariffs are raised or lowered and industries can advertise that rising prices are due to tariff increases.




The government does that with any kind of tax but at least with tariffs it serves a national defense purpose.



The industries can inform people about the tariffs and the income tax is totally unfelt thanks to withholding.

Sardines have a tariff on them. Are they important to the national defense? Are electronic traffic signs? Declaring the products a "national security risk" is the only way Trump can impose tariffs without going through Congress.

[Swordsmyth]

Sardines have a tariff on them. Are they important to the national defense? Are electronic traffic signs? Declaring the products a "national security risk" is the only way Trump can impose tariffs without going through Congress.

You are changing the subject.

Trump's explanation is that our trade deficit is sufficiently large that it constitutes a threat to national security threat all by itself, he may just be right.

[Dr.3D]

Sardines have a tariff on them. Are they important to the national defense?

If the sardines have a tariff on them, they must be imported. Making the import more expensive through the imposition of tariffs, gives incentive for people to buy domestic products at comparable prices. This in turn helps domestic production to increase. It's defensive to the nation to promote domestic production.

[Zippyjuan]

You are changing the subject.

Trump's explanation is that our trade deficit is sufficiently large that it constitutes a threat to national security threat all by itself, he may just be right.

Why is a trade deficit a threat to national security? Will our trading partners cut off all trade with us? That hurts them as well as us- they lose the money we were giving them in exchange for goods. It costs them jobs which could cause unrest in their country. We do buy a lot of stuff from China but they only account for about 15% of all of our imports.

There are many reasons a country may run a trade deficit. It is not necessarily weakness. Strength can cause it. If we are wealthier than our trading partners, then we may be able to afford to buy more things from them than they can afford to buy from us. Another problem strength can cause- a strong currency. A strong dollar makes things we import cheaper to buy due to the exchange rate. So we import more. It also makes things we produce more expensive for them to buy from us. So that strong dollar increases imports and decreases exports- the deficit grows.

[Zippyjuan]

If the sardines have a tariff on them, they must be imported. Making the import more expensive through the imposition of tariffs, gives incentive for people to buy domestic products at comparable prices. This in turn helps domestic production to increase. It's defensive to the nation to promote domestic production.

So the government should protect businesses from competition. What about letting consumers decide where they want to buy from? Let the market decide? Is the government smarter about what people should be buying and companies should be producing?

[Dr.3D]

So the government should protect businesses from competition. What about letting consumers decide where they want to buy from?

During WWII, domestic automobile manufacturers were building tanks. What happens if there are no domestic automobile manufacturers and a lack of heavy industry? Do we buy our tanks from some other country?

[Swordsmyth]

Why is a trade deficit a threat to national security? Will our trading partners cut off all trade with us? That hurts them as well as us- they lose the money we were giving them in exchange for goods. It costs them jobs which could cause unrest in their country. We do buy a lot of stuff from China but they only account for about 15% of all of our imports.

There are many reasons a country may run a trade deficit. It is not necessarily weakness. Strength can cause it. If we are wealthier than our trading partners, then we may be able to afford to buy more things from them than they can afford to buy from us. Another problem strength can cause- a strong currency. A strong dollar makes things we import cheaper to buy due to the exchange rate. So we import more. It also makes things we produce more expensive for them to buy from us. So that strong dollar increases imports and decreases exports- the deficit grows.

There are innumerable ways that our enemies can use the dollars they gain or the assets they buy in America with them to damage or destroy us.

[Swordsmyth]

During WWII, domestic automobile manufacturers were building tanks. What happens if there are no domestic automobile manufacturers and a lack of heavy industry? Do we buy our tanks from some other country?

Maybe China will sell us the things our military needs even after they declare war on us?

[Dr.3D]

Maybe China will sell us the things our military needs even after they declare war on us?

Well, they already have a lot of the heavy machinery we used to have. I suspect our automobile manufacturers shipped the machinery over there so they could cut prices. In doing so, they sold away our industrial base.

I suppose we can order our defense products from them.

[Zippyjuan]

During WWII, domestic automobile manufacturers were building tanks. What happens if there are no domestic automobile manufacturers and a lack of heavy industry? Do we buy our tanks from some other country?

We already have the largest military in the world- and we produce 13 million cars a year. Did we have production problems when we were fighting two wars with Iraq and Afghanistan? I doubt that will be a problem.

[Dr.3D]

We already have the largest military in the world- and we produce 13 million cars a year. Did we have production problems when we were fighting two wars with Iraq and Afghanistan? I doubt that will be a problem.

That would all depend on who we are at war with.

Are all those car parts made in the United States? Nope.... A great deal of the car parts are imported from China.

I suspect this is why GM is so upset with Trump.

[Zippyjuan]

That would all depend on who we are at war with.

Are all those car parts made in the United States? Nope.... A great deal of the car parts are imported from China.

That is one of the things about trade- we get all kinds of things from all over the place. That interdependence reduces the risks for war among trading partners.

[Swordsmyth]

We already have the largest military in the world- and we produce 13 million cars a year. Did we have production problems when we were fighting two wars with Iraq and Afghanistan? I doubt that will be a problem.

If we continue to de-industrialize by allowing China and others to wag trade warfare against us without fighting back there will be a problem.

Modern military equipment relies on a lot of rare-earth elements, who produces how much of the world's supply of rare-earths?

[Swordsmyth]

That is one of the things about trade- we get all kinds of things from all over the place. That interdependence reduces the risks for war among trading partners.

That's what they said before WWI and WWII, it also makes it easier for a world government to conquer us, they would have the rest of the world to supply them and we would be cut off from all our needs.

[Dr.3D]

That is one of the things about trade- we get all kinds of things from all over the place. That interdependence reduces the risks for war among trading partners.

That right there also makes us vulnerable should one particular supplier decide to stop supplying that strategic part.

[Brian4Liberty]

Most of the affected factories build cars that won’t be sold in the U.S. after next year.

And these cars can’t be sold in other nations because? Couldn’t possibly be foreign restrictions and tariffs...nevermind, that’s all good as long as it’s not the US. Nothing to see here, move along.

[Danke]

Just buy the product you can afford and like the best. If it's too expensive, don't buy it.

If everything on the shelf is too expensive, it won't sell and that will be incentive for people to find a way to make it cheaper. That in turn increases jobs in this country as they start making the product in this country thus avoiding the tariff.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Dr.3D again.

[EBounding]

Tariffs have nothing to do with this except perhaps if GM is doing this to try to help China's campaign to get us to go back to surrendering in the trade war they are waging against us.

Nothing to do with this?

A sudden $1 billion in annual costs is going to prompt drastic action sooner rather than later.

But I guess Trump will fix it with more tariffs or something.

[phill4paul]

Nothing to do with this?

A sudden $1 billion in annual costs is going to prompt drastic action sooner rather than later.

But I guess Trump will fix it with more tariffs or something.

Nothing. I've outlined many times in this thread, and others, the reasons why GM and Ford are doing what they are doing. They would be doing this even if there were no tariffs.

[angelatc]

So the government should protect businesses from competition. What about letting consumers decide where they want to buy from? Let the market decide? Is the government smarter about what people should be buying and companies should be producing?

This isn't denate - this is trolling. Please answer my question - why are you allowed to post here? Someone told me that you hold an ownership stake here. Is that true?

[EBounding]

Nothing. I've outlined many times in this thread, and others, the reasons why GM and Ford are doing what they are doing. They would be doing this even if there were no tariffs.

The tariffs aren't creating over a billion in extra annual costs?

[angelatc]

The tariffs aren't creating over a billion in extra annual costs?

It isn't about costs. It's about the fact that Americans want trucks and SUVs. The auto industry started cutting sedans out of their lines long before the tariffs went into effect.

Trump tried to roll back the CAFE standards which would have allowed them the ability to make less expensive small sedans, but they don't want to compete with themselves, so they asked him not to. Those are their words.

[Danke]

It isn't about costs. It's about the fact that Americans want trucks and SUVs. The auto industry started cutting sedans out of their lines long before the tariffs went into effect.

Trump tried to roll back the CAFE standards which would have allowed them the ability to make less expensive small sedans, but they don't want to compete with themselves, so they asked him not to. Those are their words.

I also heard that since it takes years from design to development to production (and retooling) of a new vehicle, car companies don't want the change back now as they already have the small cars ready.

[EBounding]

It isn't about costs. It's about the fact that Americans want trucks and SUVs. The auto industry started cutting sedans out of their lines long before the tariffs went into effect.

Trump tried to roll back the CAFE standards which would have allowed them the ability to make less expensive small sedans, but they don't want to compete with themselves, so they asked him not to. Those are their words.

I don't disagree about the market changes and what you said about the CAFE standards. But the tariffs are hugely disruptive and impact the most profitable vehicles. Then there's the uncertainty surrounding them too. Perhaps they'll get worse depending on how the President is feeling on a particular day.

I feel like I'm in bizzaro world seeing tariffs defended on Ron Paul Forums.