AR-15 info

[maeqFREEDOMfree]

a friend of mine just bought an AR-15 (olympia). I was wondering if you AR-15 owners can give me some info on the different manufacturers and heir quality along with any problems you've had personally or heard of other people having with AR's from different manufacturers.

Colt it seems is the best/highest quality but I'm thinking that's based mostly on name recognition. So the question i guess I'm asking is what brand should i get if I'm not looking to shell out the $1,500 for a colt?

thanks

"If guns cause violence then all mine must be defective"
-The Nuge

[JRegs85]

I have an Olympic Arms too, it's reliable and has a lifetime warranty. However, that's probably the cheapest brand name AR, a better one might be Bushmaster or Stag Arms.

[SWATH]

Noveske
LMT
Colt
Bushmaster
Armalite
Stag

Are all top notch maufacturers

Very roughly in that order give or take, there is really too many variables to say who is best and many of the parts are made by many of the same manufacturers, i.e. upper receivers. I don't know if Stag makes their own barrels or bolts. But variables like bolt magnetic particle inspection varies with manufacturer, for example ALL Colt and LMT bolts are MP tested whereas Bushmaster MP tests in lots. You can get bolts MP tested or not from CMT. Noveske may use LMT bolts I think or they make their own, in which case they will just as good.

[STRATIOTES]

You would do well to read this thread it is designed to answer the question what AR-15 should I buy

[STRATIOTES]

If you fear following links here is the first post.

Originally posted by tire iron:
[QB] There seems to be a large number of threads from patriots that are seeking to purchase/build an AR type rifle in some configuration. This post will provide most of the answers to those frequently asked questions.

No doubt this post will be somewhat controversial – as I will invariably step on toes in this process – and for that I apologize up front – but also note that I will not compromise my personal integrity by “holding back” on the truth.

Obviously this post will be focused on “tools” that one could trust one’s life too – this post will not cover AR’s that could be used as “toys” (fun guns for plinking/hunting/target shooting/etc.)

We will start with the characteristics of what it is we are looking for in an AR tool – then we will discuss the manufacturers that are making what we want – followed by those that are making close to what we want. If the manufacturer is not listed in this post – I will not trust my life to it – PERIOD. ALL other manufacturers – make “toys”.

The three MOST important parts of the AR are the barrel, bolt and bolt carrier. Consider this – the chamber pressure in an AR when it fires is 50,000 PSI – that is TWENTY FIVE TONS of pressure per square inch - and this is near your face! We only want the highest quality parts to contain those high pressure explosions that occur every time we touch off a round.

OK – the barrel assy. We want:

1. Barrel made from 4150 steel
2. Chrome lined chamber and bore
3. 5.56mm chamber
4. Manganese Phosphate coating under the front sight base
5. Forged front sight assy
6. MagParticle inspected
7. 1x7” twist

The Bolt:

1. Buy the bolt from one of the Tier Three or above manufacturers listed below.

The Bolt Carrier:

1. MagParticle inspected
2. Covered Firing Pin
3. Solid “rear”
4. Properly staked gas key
5. Chrome lined “cylinder” (where the gas rings on the bolt interface with the bolt carrier)

Upper receiver:

1. Forged 7075 T6 construction (not cast)
2. Mil-Spec “true” M1913 rails (if flat top)
3. Mil-Spec anodizing AFTER M4 ramps are cut
4. Mil-Spec small parts (forward assist, ejection port cover, etc.)

Lower receiver:

1. Forged 7075 T6 construction
2. Mil-Spec internals (no “target” or “match grade” parts)


Now let’s look at manufacturers. There are only TWO manufacturers that are independently checked/tested to ensure they build “mil-spec” M series longarms (M16A2 and M4). These two manufacturers are Colt and FN. The US government inspectors ensure they build rifles to the spec.

There are other manufacturers that build to the “mil-spec” – but they do so willfully – and are not independently inspected to the spec. Some manufacturers build to the exact spec – some build to portions of the spec – some don’t build to the spec at all.

The first category is what we will call TIER ONE manufacturers and are the ONLY two that build to the spec and are independently verified. They are:

1. COLT (only the military/LE rifles – the civy “Target” models are not built to the spec)
2. FN

Then next category is “Tier Two” - those manufactures that build to the exact spec – but aren’t verified by US gov inspectors:

1. LMT (Lewis Machine and Tool)
2. BMC (Bravo Machine Company)

Tier Three are companies that build to the spec – but don’t shoot a “proof” round through each barrel before it is MagParticle inspected – they MagPart inspect a percentage of barrels from each lot.

1. CMMG

Tier Four companies build close to the spec – but don’t have 1x7” barrel twist – don’t shoot a proof load through each barrel (they – like CMMG above – inspect a percentage of barrels from each lot) and don’t Manganese Phosphate coat the barrel under the front sight base:

1. Bushmaster

These other manufacturers use sub-standard barrel material (4140) – chambers that may or may not be 5.56 – in short – they are rifles that are build under the standard. Having said that – these “Tier Five” companies do build some quality rifles – just understand – that according the “Spec” – which is how we must judge AR’s – these are further “sub-par” than any of the Tier Four and up. The following companies are not listed in any particular order:

1. Armalite
2. Stag Arms
3. Smith and Wesson (Stag)
4. CMT (which makes Stag and S&W)
5. Rock River Arms (RRA)
6. DPMS

Then there is the Tier Six companies – which I wouldn’t recommend to anyone. The Tier Six companies are any AR manufacturer that is not listed above. Note that many “parts house’s” use AR parts made by one of the above manufacturers – but they also buy parts made from “who knows??” – and is not something I would willingly put my life on the line with…..would you??

So – armed with the above information – I would suggest the following. Buy the assembled upper from any of the Tier Three and up manufacturers.

Buy ANY stripped lower receiver made by any Tier 5 and above manufacturers.

Get all lower receiver parts (actually all small parts) from any Tier 5 and above manufacturer.

Buy bolts/bolt carriers/barrels from any Tier Three and above manufacturer.

If you prefer to go down to your local gun store and just buy a rifle – the only real choice to buy a rifle closest to the “Spec” is our only Tier Four manufacturer – which is Bushmaster.

RRA, Armalite, Stag, et al – all build quality rifles – but they aren’t built even close to the same standard that the Tier Three (and arguably Tier Four) and above companies do.

Hope this helps,

cheers

tire iron [/QB]

[SWATH]

I might also add that bolts should be shot peened to be in spec, you won't really be able to buy FN AR parts anywhere, chamber pressure for 5.56 is closer to 60-65,000 PSI, and Mil-spec is great but does not necessarily mean the best. Although in most cases Mil-Spec is what you want to stick with, there are some things that are not mil-spec and are better, for example, ion bonded or nitrocarborized parts, or those super hard stainless T7 barrels that Noveske uses. These are very expensive, super high performance, and yet not mil-spec.

[maeqFREEDOMfree]

awesome info guys... has info on "cons" to consider?

[STRATIOTES]

awesome info guys... has info on "cons" to consider?

AR's are very versatile platforms, they can be configured a number of different ways.

Rifles are tools and just like there are different hammers for different jobs so is a the rifle often mission specific.

What is the most likely way your rifle will be used ?

My personal opinion is the AR is a high power 22 carbine and best used as a light weight carbine role.

[maeqFREEDOMfree]

AR's are very versatile platforms, they can be configured a number of different ways.

Rifles are tools and just like there are different hammers for different jobs so is a the rifle often mission specific.

What is the most likely way your rifle will be used ?

My personal opinion is the AR is a high power 22 carbine and best used as a light weight carbine role.

maybe this will better explain what's going on in this head of mine...

I wanted a rifle for long ranges and great knockdown power and bought a FAL - It's heavy semi-auto, shoots a large round, and accurate.

I wanted a short to mid range reliable rifle that i can use for any short-mid range distances that would make my side arm ineffective and i bought an AK-47 - It's versital, lighter-weight, and known the world over for it's reliability.

I guess with the AR would sit in the middle of those two and probably take the 'role' of the AK. everything i hear about the rifle is great. the only reason i've stayed away from it in the first place is because .223 round. not that there's anything wrong with it, but i don't like the idea i've heard that this round was designed to wound. However, now that's i've found that there are conversions for ARs to be chambered in .308 and 762.39, i'm considering one.

does this help?

i guess i've only heard people talk about all the good qualities and haven't heard anything bad and before i jump into a purchase, i want to make sure my bases are covered.

thanks again

[SWATH]

Half of what you hear about the .223 round is false. It was NOT designed to wound, but if it was they did a horrible job because it keeps killing people.

read up here:
www.ammo-oracle.com

[maeqFREEDOMfree]

Half of what you hear about the .223 round is false. It was NOT designed to wound, but if it was they did a horrible job because it keeps killing people.

read up here:
www.ammo-oracle.com

interseting read.

[OddballAZ]

I build an AR-15 with a Rock River Arms lower and a CMMG upper in 6.8mm. I love it. Colt is really over priced but it is good. Most of the companies named so far in this thread are good.

Read up on what you want. Consider building one as it's cheaper. It isn't hard to build either. If you go with normal 5.56 you need to determine what bullet weight you want to fire, and get the appropriate barrel twist. The military is shifting toward larger grain bullets (62-70 something) and those require a twist rate of 1x7. A lot of what you read about 5.56 being a crappy round is BS. Within 200 yards it's gunna kill.

I only got the 6.8mm because I don't want to be competing with all you 5.56 users out there to buy ammo. And the 6.8mm cases can be reloaded a lot more than a normal 5.56.

[maeqFREEDOMfree]

Consider building one as it's cheaper. It isn't hard to build either.

do you happen to have any good links or leads i can follow as to buying the kit to build one?

[GoDrNo]

Go to ar15.com, read the build your own section of the forums, check out the assemble your lower...... sticky thats at the top of the build your own section. With the step by step instruction its as easy as pie to assemble your own lower reciever using a parts kit and a stripped lower. You can then buy a pre built, test fired upper and slap the 2 together. Building your own will save you tons of bucks as you only pay the excise tax on the stripped lower ($110-$140) instead of the excise tax on the whole rifle. There are also some industry partners that have some great sales on guns that have been transported to and from gun shows but haven't sold from what I hear these look as though they have just been unboxed.

edit: just in case you need to find a place to buy an assembled upper there are lots of great places you can find through ar15.com, I happened to use Del-ton and I have to say they have some of the best customer service I have dealt with in a long long time. Best bet on a stripped lower is to find one at a local gun shop and save yourself the problem of having to have it transfered to a FFL if you order it online. The parts kit to install in the lower receiver is included with the Rifle kits from Del-ton, as is the stock.

[h00ligan]

There have been some FANTASTIC reviews of these bargain bin rebuilds - and for the price well seems pretty good. People on glocktalk.com have ordered and said there were no visible signs of wear even... although as always ymmv, but the price is very very tempting.

[chudrockz]

I don't know much about the AR-15, but they sound pretty slick.

There's a website I go to, www.jgsales.com, that if you click on "current specials" it has a Century AR-15 style rifle for $595 (I think). Is Century any good? Or would this be a waste of money?

[h00ligan]

Yah that place is in prescott, it's pretty good!

[maeqFREEDOMfree]

Go to ar15.com, read the build your own section of the forums, check out the assemble your lower...... sticky thats at the top of the build your own section. With the step by step instruction its as easy as pie to assemble your own lower reciever using a parts kit and a stripped lower. You can then buy a pre built, test fired upper and slap the 2 together. Building your own will save you tons of bucks as you only pay the excise tax on the stripped lower ($110-$140) instead of the excise tax on the whole rifle. There are also some industry partners that have some great sales on guns that have been transported to and from gun shows but haven't sold from what I hear these look as though they have just been unboxed.

edit: just in case you need to find a place to buy an assembled upper there are lots of great places you can find through ar15.com, I happened to use Del-ton and I have to say they have some of the best customer service I have dealt with in a long long time. Best bet on a stripped lower is to find one at a local gun shop and save yourself the problem of having to have it transfered to a FFL if you order it online. The parts kit to install in the lower receiver is included with the Rifle kits from Del-ton, as is the stock.

Thanks a lot man i'll be looking into going this route for sure!

[Luft97]

I would go Rock River. Can the DEA and FBI be wrong?

Colona, IL)…Rock River Arms has the reputation for producing top quality AR15s and custom 1911s. What sets Rock River Arms apart from the competition is their versatility to produce weapons to such rigorous specifications.


Many elite AR15 manufacturers submitted weapons for approval but fell short during the abuse test, which was the initial phase of testing. Rock River Arms AR15 .223/5.56 NATO met the requirements and specifications set forth by DEA. The abuse test consisted of the parts interchange test, the extreme temperature test, the drop test, the throw test and the corrosion test. In the parts interchange test, the carbines were field stripped. The major component parts were randomly interchanged and reassembled. Each carbine was then loaded and fired and had to perform without malfunction. During the extreme temperature test, the carbines were placed in a chamber and stabilized at a temperature of minus 20 F for one hour. Then the weapons were removed and immediately fired at room temperature. Then the carbines were placed in a temperature chamber where it was stabilized at 120 F for one hour then removed and immediately fired at room temperature. The weapon then moved on to the drop test from a height of 4 feet and dropped onto a concrete floor six different times on all sides of the carbine. After completing the drop safety test, the weapon was loaded and had to safely fire 20 rounds with no malfunction to pass. The throw test consisted of throwing the firearm from a height of four feet and over a distance of 15 feet, once on the right side and once on the left side, then must safely fire 20 rounds with no malfunction. It was then submerged in salt water and exposed to sand. After both tests the weapon had to function flawlessly.


Rock River Arms was one of the selected few that outperformed the other manufacturers and moved on to phase two of the testing. Phase two was the 5,000 round endurance/functional reliability test. The testing team consisted of members of the DEA and FBI Firearms Training Unit and the DEA and FBI armorers/gunsmiths. The team also tested for accuracy, dispersion and velocity.


Rock River Arms is supplying the DEA with their AR15 chambered in .223/5.56 NATO, equipped with an Eo Tech holo sight, a Surefire rail and white light, a Viking sling and an Eagle Industry carry case. The DEA awarded Rock River Arms the contract.