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Thread: The Kirchick/Cato/Reason Connection

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Francisco Suarez posted: [b
    Well, a couple points should be made there:

    1. Some of the people who have been dubbed "right wing hatebags" are not anything of the sort. I genuinely do not think the Ludwig von Mises Institute is the racist hate factory Tom Palmer claims. Their website and publications are full of heavy libertarianism and little more. Those are political attacks by somebody with a personal agenda against them and must be taken with a grain of salt.[/b]
    That may, or may not be the case. However, there's been reporting concerning a certain strategy devised by Rockwell and Rothbard to directly pander to these types of folks for political reasons; to bring them onboard, so to speak. This may, or may not be true. However, I've yet to hear Rockwell address anything about this issue in a way that satisfies legitimate questions surrounding his potential role in the matter. Instead, about all that Rockwell has added to the discussion that clearly involves him in some way is that any and everyone who is asking questions are somehow, in essence, Traitors. And lol, Neocons!

    2. In the instances where genuine right-wing hatebags are involved (e.g. Don Black of Stormfront) there is absolutely no evidence showing they are close to the Ron Paul campaign. In fact, Paul is openly dismissive of them.
    Perhaps. However, I requested a refund of my donation from the campaign well before the newsletters were dredged up (months ago) simply because Paul would not address, in any significant manner, the donation from Don Black. I have not heard from the campaign to this day. This led me to believe that there existed fire from whence that smoke was emanating, and apparently, I was correct. Now, the questions surrounding White Supremacist ties to the Ron Paul campaign are impossible to ignore no matter how much one would like to do just that.

    In fact, it now appears that the campaign is swimming in White Supremacist ties, including their money, which seems to explain why Paul really couldn't distance himself away from a Don Black donation, for instance, to begin with simply because of the backlash that would potentially erupt with those people.

    It's difficult to distance one's campaign in any meaningful way from a group of folks that one openly pandered to just a few short years earlier without suffering some sort of blow back from those same folks, I should think. In fact, the point could be made that Dr. Paul owes his current success to those folks; the foundation of which was perhaps built by them.

    3. By their very nature right wing hatebags are on the fringe periphery of society's political discussions. They have no significant influence over anyone and it simply isn't worth the time trying to research and discredit something that discredits itself on its own. People like Palmer, Boaz, and Kirchick do have influence, by contrast, and they are plainly using it in this case to do harm. That's why they need discrediting.
    Well, I could not disagree more, and moreover, I think you have your priorities dead wrong. If reports of Rockwell's and Rothbard's plan to revitalize that segment of society for political reasons are correct, then this goes to the heart of what those newsletters were intended for. The hatebags may not have any significant influence over anyone at the moment, but again, if these reports involving Rockwell and Rothbard are correct, then there was an attempt to change all of that. And disturbingly enough, those attempts to revitalize that segment of society were being done under Dr. Paul's name.

    This issue deserves an answer from not only Rockwell, but Dr. Paul as well. You may not give a flying crap about this so-called "old news," but rest assured, some of us care deeply about it. For the harm to this campaign is not coming from the messengers of information, the harm is coming from a deliberate attempt to hide and stonewall the issue by those intimately involved....
    Last edited by courtney; 01-18-2008 at 03:14 PM.



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  3. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by courtney View Post
    However, I requested a refund of my donation from the campaign well before the newsletters were dredged up (months ago) simply because Paul would not address, in any significant manner, the donation from Don Black.
    Do you actually expect anyone here to believe that you ever made a contribution to this campaign?



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  5. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Spirit of '76 View Post
    Do you actually expect anyone here to believe that you ever made a contribution to this campaign?
    Don't be silly. Ole Courtney's contributed massive amounts of divisiveness and misinformation! She just won't get over the fact that everyone here won't lay down and play dead over the newsletter issue. She's morally outraged, outraged I tell you!!

  6. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by MsDoodahs View Post
    Wow, that is a fantastic post. Thank you.
    My pleasure. I am sick of the Julian Sanchezes of the world, who claim to represent a libertarian perspective, but rather than focus on the nitty gritty of issues, instead engage in the mindless and worthless "cult of personality" games.

    I've got some sway with some people. I will be letting them know exactly why Reason is worth neither their consideration, time or money. I encourage all freedom loving people, Democrat, Republican or Independent to do the same.

    Be sure to mention that Reason represents the libertarian faction that eats it's young, and not the one that is willing to give up their time, money and sweat to make a difference for freedom.
    Hi!

  7. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by colin1 View Post
    She's morally outraged, outraged I tell you!!
    I wonder how much she gets paid for that.

  8. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Spirit of '76 View Post
    Do you actually expect anyone here to believe that you ever made a contribution to this campaign?
    Let's put it this way. In a post some time ago on this board, Rockwell accused me of being a "shill," and just as you are doing now, asserted that 1) I never donated to the campaign, thus have been a Paul supporter; and 2) that I wasn't a member of the Libertarian party and never have been.

    I thus offered him to wager his Home on those assertions of his. So, if you'd like to join in on the wager, I can accommodate you as well. Put your home where your mouth is, that is if you don't rent. I'll be just tickled to own me a few rent houses across America....
    Last edited by courtney; 01-18-2008 at 03:32 PM.

  9. #37
    It has been long known that Reason and Cato are in bed with the establishment.

    courtney, why are you still around here? Why not go migrate somewhere else?

  10. #38
    I think a lot of racists do support Dr. Paul, but only because they have no clue about why he does what he does. I imagine that is why his Newsletters attracted racist writers... these people will never understand that Dr. Paul can vote against an a "pro" minority type bill because he truly believes all people are equal.

    The Newsletters scandal has less to do with Dr. Paul being racist and more to do with what the average joe on the street will think. That is where Dr. Paul is making his mistake, most people will not understand his motives and thus the Racist label may stick. That is why HE MUST expose the writers if he wishes to be President.

  11. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by courtney View Post
    Well, I could not disagree more, and moreover, I think you have your priorities dead wrong. If reports of Rockwell's and Rothbard's plan to revitalize that segment of society for political reasons are correct, then this goes to the heart of what those newsletters were intended for.
    I'm not certain if in between your trolling you've noticed yet, but it is currently the year 2008. The supposed Rothbard-Rockwell conspiracy, if it ever existed, occurred in 1992. Even if there really is a nefarious plan under way, they sure haven't "revitalized" that "segment of society" yet. And that tells me it simply ain't gonna happen!

  12. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by fmontez View Post
    I think a lot of racists do support Dr. Paul, but only because they have no clue about why he does what he does. I imagine that is why his Newsletters attracted racist writers... these people will never understand that Dr. Paul can vote against an a "pro" minority type bill because he truly believes all people are equal.

    The Newsletters scandal has less to do with Dr. Paul being racist and more to do with what the average joe on the street will think. That is where Dr. Paul is making his mistake, most people will not understand his motives and thus the Racist label may stick. That is why HE MUST expose the writers if he wishes to be President.
    In the most simplest of explanations, the reason white supremacists are so eager to support Dr. Paul is because he would remove the Federal government from their lives. That would in turn allow for the "South to Rise Again," plain and simple, which is the desire of most of these folks.

    Currently, the feds have infiltrated most all of these fringe groups (I call them domestic terrorist groups, which is what they are). However, without the feds watching their every move, these groups would be allowed to flourish again, which is something I simply cannot accept. At the very least, they would be able to secede from the union, and begin their own Country based on their values.

    I understand Dr. Paul's philosophy of non-interventionism in matters of the States, but I do believe that history has proven that these types of groups are, in all actuality, enemies of freedom and liberty: they are enemies of this Nation. Sure, they desire their own unfettered freedom and liberty, but that's just so that they will be allowed impose their views on the rest of us in those geographical areas in which they stand to have influence. Just as American history has proven, these folks will once again commence to intimidate and terrorize and rape and murder and lynch those they feel are inferior to them.

    So, I guess this stance doesn't make me a pure Libertarian in the philosophical sense. Oh well, I can live with that....



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  14. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by courtney View Post
    Let's put it this way. In a post some time ago on this board, Rockwell accused me of being a "shill," and just as you are doing now, asserted that 1) I never donated to the campaign, thus have been a Paul supporter; and 2) that I wasn't a member of the Libertarian party and never have been.

    I thus offered him to wager his Home on those assertions of his. So, if you'd like to join in on the wager, I can accommodate you as well. Put your home where your mouth is, that is if you don't rent. I'll be just tickled to own me a few rent houses across America....
    No, let's put it this way. Our country is experiencing an existential crisis. The stock market is sagging, housing values are plummeting, our civil liberties are being stripped away and thousands of our men and women are dying in Iraq and the issue you spend most of your time worrying about is these newsletters from 20 years ago. It's ridiculous. Now run home to Aunt Hillary and Uncle Obama, cause they will make everything ok.

  15. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Francisco Suarez View Post
    Kirchick has been on record both publicly and privately supporting Rudy Giuliani's candidacy. It's highly unlikely that a libertarian of any stripe would support Giuliani, the most statist of the GOP candidates running.
    Obviously you don't know the great libertarian activist Eric Dondero.

  16. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Johncjackson View Post
    Obviously you don't know the great libertarian activist Eric Dondero.
    ROTFLMAO!!! There is always the great Dondero!

  17. #44
    My review of the For Liberty documentary:
    digg.com/d315eji
    (please Digg and post comments on the HuffPost site)

    "This political train-wreck Republicans face can largely be traced to Bush’s philosophical metamorphosis from a traditional, non-interventionist conservative to the neoconservatives’ exemplar of a 'War President', and his positioning of the Republicans as the 'War Party'."

    Nicholas Sanchez on Bush's legacy, September 30, 2007.

  18. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Bradley in DC View Post
    Good find.

    As gays and lesbians, we should be able to see through the smear tactics of people like Kirchick to appreciate the true friends of freedom. Yes, Ron Paul should have exercised much closer scrutiny of things written in his name. One might fairly question his managerial skills--but he is no bigot. Paul articulates a consistent and coherent philosophy of politics that is deeply rooted in the liberal tradition. Those gays and lesbians who reject Paul's Constitutionalism in favor of candidates who might promise greater personal autonomy do themselves a great disservice. Institutions, constitutions and decentralization matter profoundly to sustainability of personal autonomy, as the doomed liberals of 1920s Weimer Germany would learn at the expense of Germany's gays, Jews and other minorities.
    I'm not gay but I support the rights of adults to engage in the types of relationships they chose.

    Freedom Brings Us Together

  19. #46
    this IS THE TOLL FREE NUMBER TO TNR.

    800-827-1289

    let them know what you think of their reporting and eithics.

  20. #47
    Hey Courtney - a lot of us were not too pleased with the release of the newsletters for both their content and the intent of the person doing the releasing. But at the end of the day or should I say week, you either suck it up or move on. Your impassioned pleas do have merit but I think it's time for you to make that decision. If you can't live with an imperfect Republican candidate who has a great message, try the libertarian party.

    PS - Please donate an additional $100 either way.
    Last edited by jacmicwag; 01-19-2008 at 01:30 AM.

  21. #48
    (800) 582-2245

    Toll free number to Reason Magazine



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  23. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by jacmicwag View Post
    Hey Courtney - a lot of us were not too pleased with the release of the newsletters for both their content and the intent of the person doing the releasing. But at the end of the day or should I say week, you either suck it up or move on. Your impassioned pleas do have merit but I think it's time for you to make that decision. If you can't live with an imperfect Republican candidate who has a great message, try the libertarian party.

    PS - Please donate an additional $100 either way.
    Well, I appreciate your post, jacmicwag. And btw, I cannot donate another dime -- I've maxed out!

    But do note this: I still support Dr. Paul's run for the Presidency, including whatever else he endeavors to do politically. However, I do not support White Supremacists, and I do not appreciate being associated with them in this movement -- especially when I'm the one having to convince folks to jump on board. It's difficult enough to convince folks of libertarian ideas without having to clear the White Supremacist hatbag hurdle first.

    So, rest assured I have sucked it up, though I'll admit the taste is rather foul. And after some deep reflection on the matter, I've decided to stay on board the Ron Paul wagon, so, he'll get my vote, if perhaps nothing more from me. I'm just not as enthused as I once was. Kinda sucks falling from cloud nine....

    Thanks Admin for allowing me to post.
    Last edited by yentruoc; 01-19-2008 at 02:49 PM.

  24. #50
    jacmicwag,
    Just to clarify my last post a bit, what I meant by my assurance of "support" of Ron Paul in his future endeavors is that if I'm ever in a situation to vote for him as opposed to the rest of the status quo, then I probably will. However, I will never campaign for him, or else send him another dime (at least until I get a decent explanation concerning those newsletters, which I doubt will ever occur, btw). Of course, I will vote libertarian in the general election before I vote Ron Paul as a rule of thumb.

    As for the Republican Presidential Primaries, I still, at the moment anyway, plan to cast my vote for Paul (whilst holding my nose, of course).

    Anyway, so it was brought to my attention that perhaps my last post here suggested a bit more than what I had intended, so, I wanted to take this opportunity to clear it up.

    I thank the admin here for once again allowing me to post.
    Last edited by yentruoc; 01-20-2008 at 06:29 PM.

  25. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Julian Sanchez View Post
    We did find the authors, we named them, and we provided the evidence linking them to the newsletters, including a positive ID from a source within the campaign.
    Welcome to the forum, Julian.
    My review of the For Liberty documentary:
    digg.com/d315eji
    (please Digg and post comments on the HuffPost site)

    "This political train-wreck Republicans face can largely be traced to Bush’s philosophical metamorphosis from a traditional, non-interventionist conservative to the neoconservatives’ exemplar of a 'War President', and his positioning of the Republicans as the 'War Party'."

    Nicholas Sanchez on Bush's legacy, September 30, 2007.

  26. #52

    Angry Drop it!

    When are you people going to drop this garbage?
    No one cares about it.


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