View Poll Results: Should Daylight Savings Time (DST) be ended?

Voters
12. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes. End DST.

    4 33.33%
  • No. Keep DST.

    2 16.67%
  • No. Keep DST - and make it year-round.

    1 8.33%
  • maybe / not sure

    0 0%
  • no opinion / don't care

    5 41.67%
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Thread: Trump wants to end Daylight Savings Time

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    Dammit!!

    You almost had it until that last sentence!!!

    Look at the post before yours.. so many people claim they would rather have the sun at the end of the day to do stuff.. but you're right, if it was still dark at 8am... 8:30am in the dead of winter, maybe later some places... that is ridiculous, people would be upset. Maybe some people would be ok with it..

    But my point is, you piss off a LOT of people by either going standard time all year, and you piss a LOT of people off by going DST all year.. keep it the way it is, it's best for everyone all around.
    My point is that you can either adjust the clock twice a year or adjust the schedules twice a year. I can see pros and cons to both of them. I'm leaning towards the current system of changing the clock as better. It would be interesting to see what places do that stay on standard all year. Do they adjust their schedules?

    My objection is to the idea of switching to DST permanently because it breaks the idea of 24 hour time zones. Plus people seem to think it's magically creating more hours in the day and that annoys me.



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  3. #32
    If we returned to an agrarian economy everyone would be fine with getting rid of Daylight Savings time.



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  5. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.3D View Post
    My dog even knows it's unnatural.
    She continues to get up at the same time no matter what the clock says.
    This is the missing variable that no one here has mentioned.

    If you leave the clock unchanged people will ADJUST THEIR SCHEDULES to the changes in daylight. Just like your dog.

    Everyone here assumes that schedules are a constant. Ask yourself what would happen if we moved the clocks ahead by 5 hours for example. Do you really think people would just get up in the middle of the night to start their day?

  6. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Madison320 View Post
    This is the missing variable that no one here has mentioned.

    If you leave the clock unchanged people will ADJUST THEIR SCHEDULES to the changes in daylight. Just like your dog.

    Everyone here assumes that schedules are a constant. Ask yourself what would happen if we moved the clocks ahead by 5 hours for example. Do you really think people would just get up in the middle of the night to start their day?
    While I agree with this. I think the issue is with logistics of business hours of opening and closing and printed signage and such.

  7. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Madison320 View Post
    It would be interesting to see what places do that stay on standard all year. Do they adjust their schedules?
    Prior to 2006 most of Indiana did that. And in general businesses kept their same nominal schedules throughout the year. There may have been rare exceptions, but I never heard of any. The points that dannno is making were not things that any real people living their lives in a world without time changes ever actually cared about. The main argument for going off of that was just to conform to what the other states around us were doing. But as far as I have been able to tell, most Hoosiers preferred not changing their clocks and continue to believe that this move increased their misery.
    There is nothing to fear from globalism, free trade and a single worldwide currency, but a globalism where free trade is competitively subsidized by each nation, a continuous trade war is dictated by the WTO, and the single currency is pure fiat, fear is justified. That type of globalism is destined to collapse into economic despair, inflationism and protectionism and managed by resurgent militant nationalism.
    Ron Paul
    Congressional Record (March 13, 2001)

  8. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by GlennwaldSnowdenAssanged View Post
    While I agree with this. I think the issue is with logistics of business hours of opening and closing and printed signage and such.
    I agree. I lean towards keeping it the way it is and just switching between standard and DST. But I can see the argument for standard all year round.

    As I've said before I just have a problem with DST all year round. That's just stupid. People will adjust their schedules and you'll end up with the same hours after work as standard time but you'll break the 24 hour global time zone logic.

  9. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Madison320 View Post
    As I've said before I just have a problem with DST all year round. That's just stupid. People will adjust their schedules and you'll end up with the same hours after work as standard time but you'll break the 24 hour global time zone logic.
    I don't understand this.

    If it is sensible - or at least tolerable - to "break the 24-hour global time zone logic" for half the year, then why is it not tolerable to do it for the whole year?

    I'm not seeing how the net trade-offs are supposed to favor the former, but disfavor the latter (especially given the concession with respect to the latter that "people will adjust their schedules and you'll end up with the same hours after work as standard time").. At least "all year round" DST would be consistent, and wouldn't involve arbitrary (and changeable) "time-change" days.

    FTR: I don't really care - never DST ... sometimes DST ... always DST ... whatever ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Banana View Post
    The Bastiat Collection · FREE PDF · FREE EPUB · PAPER
    Frédéric Bastiat (1801-1850)

    • "When law and morality are in contradiction to each other, the citizen finds himself in the cruel alternative of either losing his moral sense, or of losing his respect for the law."
      -- The Law (p. 54)
    • "Government is that great fiction, through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else."
      -- Government (p. 99)
    • "[W]ar is always begun in the interest of the few, and at the expense of the many."
      -- Economic Sophisms - Second Series (p. 312)
    • "There are two principles that can never be reconciled - Liberty and Constraint."
      -- Harmonies of Political Economy - Book One (p. 447)

    · tu ne cede malis sed contra audentior ito ·

  10. #38
    Trump:
    Trump wants to end Daylight Savings Time
    Also Trump:


  11. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Banana View Post
    I don't understand this.

    If it is sensible - or at least tolerable - to "break the 24-hour global time zone logic" for half the year, then why is it not tolerable to do it for the whole year?

    I'm not seeing how the net trade-offs are supposed to favor the former, but disfavor the latter (especially given the concession with respect to the latter that "people will adjust their schedules and you'll end up with the same hours after work as standard time").. At least "all year round" DST would be consistent, and wouldn't involve arbitrary (and changeable) "time-change" days.

    FTR: I don't really care - never DST ... sometimes DST ... always DST ... whatever ...

    Because if you're doing it for half the year you're still "anchored" to standard time.

  12. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Banana View Post
    [bold emphasis added]
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    Follow the money...

    When you were a kid, you might have been told the spring and autumn rituals of adjusting your clock had something to do with farming. Yeah, that's not true. In fact, daylight saving time has less to do with tending to crops and more to do with practicing three-footers. Seriously.

    As you probably know, daylight saving time, which in most of the country commenced on March 13, does not involve the magical creation of an extra hour of daylight, but instead shifts an hour of daylight from the early morning hours to the evening. The rationale is that hour of daylight is better utilized at the end of the work day than at the beginning. This is why certain entities, like groups representing gas stations and convenience stores, have lobbied for daylight saving time to start earlier in the year. The more daylight, the more people are willing to venture outside their homes, the more they need to refuel their cars.

    This is where golf comes into play.

    According to Michael Downing, a professor at Tufts University and the author of "Spring Forward: The Annual Madness Of Daylight Saving Time," the golf industry once estimated the game would increase revenue by $400 million if daylight saving began a month earlier. Those figures were part of a 1986 lobbying effort asking Congress to extend daylight saving from six to seven months, which ended up becoming the norm.

    "The reason it's good for golf is because it creates more daylight when people are likely to play," said Steve Mona, CEO of the World Golf Foundation. "It could be going out to play nine holes or even just spending 30 minutes on the putting green. We believe any activity is good whether it leads to increased revenue or increased engagement in the game."

    Mona says the golf industry no longer needs to actively lobby on behalf of daylight saving, and instead just monitors the occasional debate from afar. And to be clear, the concept is not universally embraced.

    Studies have suggested that energy usage, one of the original factors behind daylight saving, does not decrease much because of daylight saving. Yes, people use their lights less in the evening hours, but it also means they might increase air conditioner use. And there are even health concerns from the inevitable sleep deprivation that accompanies moving clocks ahead an hour: the New England Journal of Medicine published a report in 2008 that said heart attack risk rose in Sweden following the spring time change.

    So it's not a simple issue. Then again, if you're driving home from work this evening and notice you could still squeeze in a couple of holes, you probably aren't complaining.
    ...
    https://www.golfdigest.com/story/are...dustry-sort-of
    Regarding the bolded:

    I remember seeing an episode of Book TV on C-SPAN2 about that book around the time it came out (2005).

    Downing's presentation was interesting enough to stick in my mind after all this time.

    I couldn't find a video for it on YouTube/Rumble/Odysee, so here's the relevant C-SPAN page:

    https://www.c-span.org/program/book-...ng-time/142152
    April 15, 2005
    Book TV
    Spring Forward: The Annual Madness of Daylight Saving Time

    Mr. Downing talked about his book of social history, Spring Forward: The Annual Madness of Daylight Saving Time, published by Shoemaker and Hoard. He explored the origins and controversies surrounding Daylight Saving Time. First proposed in 1907 in London, the book argued that it was the most unscientific public policy ever perpetrated. In his remarks Mr. Downing talked about various interests and reasons for adopting Daylight Saving Time, the results of several attempts to institute the practice on wide scale levels, and misperceptions about the practice. Following his remarks he answered questions from the audience.

    [... VIDEO AT LINK ...]
    //



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  14. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Madison320 View Post
    Because if you're doing it for half the year you're still "anchored" to standard time.
    That doesn't explain anything.

    If you're doing it for half the year, then you are "unanchored" from the "24-hour global time zone logic" for half the year.

    If that is not objectionable or problematic for half the year, then why should it be objectionable or problematic for the whole year?

  15. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Henry Rogue View Post
    This thread needs a poll.
    Poll added.

    Vote hard!

  16. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Banana View Post
    That doesn't explain anything.

    If you're doing it for half the year, then you are "unanchored" from the "24-hour global time zone logic" for half the year.

    If that is not objectionable or problematic for half the year, then why should it be objectionable or problematic for the whole year?
    I'm trying to think of a good analogy but I can't just now (I need more time, ha ha). If you're on standard for half the year then you're on standard time but you just deviate temporarily. If you change to another time it's just random, it could be any time because there's no base to return to.

    Also by its nature if you're on standard/dst there's no reason to "drift" to another time zone since it's already optimized to the daylight hours. DST full time is not optimized to the daylight so people's schedule's will shift later over time. And then if you want "extra" daylight hours after work you'll need to shift another hour or "Double DST" and so on.

    So imagine you're working with global time data. The worst case scenario with standard/dst is that some times zones are 1 hour ahead. The worst case scenario with full time dst is that every time zone could literally be any value because in that case the time is not anchored to standard and can drift.

    Question for you. Would you see any problem with shifting the time 5 hours ahead?

  17. #44
    Which option gives us longer days/more daylight hours?
    "An idea whose time has come cannot be stopped by any army or any government" - Ron Paul.

    "To learn who rules over you simply find out who you arent allowed to criticize."

  18. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Banana View Post
    Poll added.

    Vote hard!
    Thanks Banana, glad you're safe.
    Quote Originally Posted by BuddyRey View Post
    Do you think it's a coincidence that the most cherished standard of the Ron Paul campaign was a sign highlighting the word "love" inside the word "revolution"? A revolution not based on love is a revolution doomed to failure. So, at the risk of sounding corny, I just wanted to let you know that, wherever you stand on any of these hot-button issues, and even if we might have exchanged bitter words or harsh sentiments in the past, I love each and every one of you - no exceptions!

    "When goods do not cross borders, soldiers will." Frederic Bastiat

    Peace.

  19. #46
    I don't care one way or the other, but it would be nice if they stopped screwing around with the clocks twice a year.

  20. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.3D View Post
    ...
    There is no reason why the position of the sun should be involved with time keeping.
    LOL. Hold on, not sure if serious...

    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    No, YOU need to get over thinking the position of the sun has anything to do with the time.
    LOL again. But this time pretty sure serious.
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul

    Proponent of real science.
    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  21. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    LOL. Hold on, not sure if serious...



    LOL again. But this time pretty sure serious.
    I found this video interesting. It may hold the ideas that they alluded to.
    Quote Originally Posted by BuddyRey View Post
    Do you think it's a coincidence that the most cherished standard of the Ron Paul campaign was a sign highlighting the word "love" inside the word "revolution"? A revolution not based on love is a revolution doomed to failure. So, at the risk of sounding corny, I just wanted to let you know that, wherever you stand on any of these hot-button issues, and even if we might have exchanged bitter words or harsh sentiments in the past, I love each and every one of you - no exceptions!

    "When goods do not cross borders, soldiers will." Frederic Bastiat

    Peace.



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  23. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    LOL. Hold on, not sure if serious...



    LOL again. But this time pretty sure serious.
    If we were still using sun dials, then yes.. there would be a direct connection, but also the time would change every single day. And it's true there is a loose connection, seeing that we split up the year into 365 days (despite 366 days every four years) based on our solar revolution and then split up those days into time units and each day the sun comes up and goes down.. but the sun doesn't come up at the same time every day, so there isn't a direct connection between the sun and the time like if we were using sun dials.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  24. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    If we were still using sun dials, then yes.. there would be a direct connection, but also the time would change every single day. ...
    And in terms of duration of use, sundials (and variants of sun tracking) have been the norm for humans for far, far longer than today's clocks (from the first mechanical clocks).

    Now let me blow your mind...

    "the time would change every single day". What a system that would be. A change so gradual, no one would realize it. That was made impossible by the implementation of artificial mechanical clocks. But now that we have electronic clocks, those could be manufactured and programmed for a gradual, daily slippage of time. The error of rigid mechanical time keeping could be corrected.
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul

    Proponent of real science.
    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  25. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    "the time would change every single day". What a system that would be. A change so gradual, no one would realize it. That was made impossible by the implementation of artificial mechanical clocks. But now that we have electronic clocks, those could be manufactured and programmed for a gradual, daily slippage of time. The error of rigid mechanical time keeping could be corrected.
    Thank the railroads and the Royal Navy for that.
    The whole narrative is absurd on its face - at the same time the USA was both founded on White supremacy, slavery, and genocide, yet always meant to be a place that infinity Africans, Indians, and South Americans could come for a "better life"? - Unknown

  26. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    And in terms of duration of use, sundials (and variants of sun tracking) have been the norm for humans for far, far longer than today's clocks (from the first mechanical clocks).

    Now let me blow your mind...

    "the time would change every single day". What a system that would be. A change so gradual, no one would realize it. That was made impossible by the implementation of artificial mechanical clocks. But now that we have electronic clocks, those could be manufactured and programmed for a gradual, daily slippage of time. The error of rigid mechanical time keeping could be corrected.
    I know my posts can be really long sometimes, but I wrote a paragraph or two about that earlier in the thread.

    The problem is that not all clocks are hooked up to the internet or satellites yet, all those clocks would be completely worthless overnight. Another thing that would be worthless overnight are Rolexes.

    There is no perfect solution at the moment. My main point is that anything you do, besides what we are currently doing, is going to piss way more people off way more than if you do nothing.. which does piss some people off, but these people are not good at optimization or thinking things completely through.

    If you do Standard time all year, a whole bunch of people are going to be pissed they can't do outdoor stuff until 8 pm or so in the summer anymore. Way more people, and way more pissed than changing time makes people.

    If you do DST all year, you piss a lot of people off who have work at 8am in the winter and the sun hasn't even come up yet. And if you change the work schedules throughout the year to start later in the winter, that is way more inconvenient and a bigger hassle, again it's going to piss people off more than changing their clock.

    If you go to the computerized, gradual solution you piss a bunch of people off who have clocks or watches that don't work that way. They will setup a meeting with somebody and have to ask them which kind of clock they use, figure out the time difference, what a freaking pain.

    The problem is everybody says they want to get rid of "daylight savings time" which colloquially refers to not changing the clocks twice a year. Half of them mean they want DST to be permanent, the other half want standard to be permanent, but nobody ever goes that far in the argument.. because if they did it would start an even bigger fight than the fight over changing time, and nobody would be talking about this anymore.

    Look, I'm not a big fan of the government. But in this case, they've already optimized time. Nobody has a better solution. Nobody has presented one in this thread, I haven't heard one. If you do make a change, you might have to update software, hardware, firmware, all kinds of stuff, so you better have a really good reason if you are doing it, and pretty much everybody needs to agree.

    And to all the people out there saying they don't want to follow government time?

    Go for it. Change your watch and your clocks to a different time. Any time you want. There is no law against it. Tell everybody you know to the put it on whatever time you want, I promise you won't be arrested.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  27. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Banana View Post
    Poll added.

    Vote hard!
    Needs "either way as long as the changes stop" as an option.
    Especially since that seems to be Trump's position.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  28. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    LOL. Hold on, not sure if serious...



    LOL again. But this time pretty sure serious.
    What time is it on the International Space Station?

  29. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    If we were still using sun dials, then yes.. there would be a direct connection, but also the time would change every single day. And it's true there is a loose connection, seeing that we split up the year into 365 days (despite 366 days every four years) based on our solar revolution and then split up those days into time units and each day the sun comes up and goes down.. but the sun doesn't come up at the same time every day, so there isn't a direct connection between the sun and the time like if we were using sun dials.
    Yes, there is a direct connection between the sun and time. Noon in each time zone is defined as when the sun is directly overhead. There's 24 time zones and the starting time zone is greenwich england.

    For the people that think switching to DST permanently is a great idea I have a question. How about if we switch all 24 time zones over to DST? Then we could move mean time from greenwich over to ireland and everybody on earth would get an hour more of daylight. Wouldn't that be great?

  30. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Banana View Post
    FTR: I don't really care - never DST ... sometimes DST ... always DST ... whatever ...
    Right? Of the things that government may or may not do, this is very close to the bottom of my concerns.

    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    Nobody has to force anybody to do anything.

    All you have to do is announce it on the news and everybody just does it.
    Just know that there will be significant costs with any changes. In today's world, every system that logs data has to account for the time changes since you have one day that has 25 hours and one that has 23 and those affect the dates on which those hours will fall. Every time-based system will need to be re-programmed and tested. It's a one-time thing and can be done (it would have been simpler if DST was never put in place in the first place), but there will be costs and there will be failures that slip through.
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire



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  32. #57
    I think it's RST (Reboot Server Time).

  33. #58
    From George Carlin's "The 11 O'Clock News" on "FM and AM"

    It's eight o'clock in Los Angeles.
    It's nine o'clock in Denver.
    It's ten o'clock in Chicago.
    In Baltimore it's 6:42. Time for the eleven o'clock report.
    My choice of third person pronouns for myself is generally irrelevant. I'm not typically involved in the conversations that use them. It's other people referring to me in the third person, usually from a distance. I'm not a conversational partner in those exchanges. Those people could be referring to me as "That A$$hole" or "That Motherfukker" for all I know.

  34. #59
    Triple post due to site's problems
    Last edited by Voluntarist; 12-19-2024 at 06:46 PM.
    My choice of third person pronouns for myself is generally irrelevant. I'm not typically involved in the conversations that use them. It's other people referring to me in the third person, usually from a distance. I'm not a conversational partner in those exchanges. Those people could be referring to me as "That A$$hole" or "That Motherfukker" for all I know.

  35. #60
    Triple post due to site's problems
    Last edited by Voluntarist; 12-19-2024 at 06:46 PM.
    My choice of third person pronouns for myself is generally irrelevant. I'm not typically involved in the conversations that use them. It's other people referring to me in the third person, usually from a distance. I'm not a conversational partner in those exchanges. Those people could be referring to me as "That A$$hole" or "That Motherfukker" for all I know.

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