Looking for a new church

[fisharmor]

I actually looked into joining an Orthodox Church a year ago. I couldn't bring myself to do it because the Orthodox Church also practices the sacrament of confession.

What is it about confession that you have an issue with?

I'll be perfectly open with you, I have issues with it, too. I don't go as often as I'm supposed to and I end up making up something that's not really bothering me a lot of the time. And I often get a response or advice that I don't find helpful.

But the thing is, I can clearly see I'm pretty alone in my assessment. I see other people going every week (including immediate family members) and they're clearly getting more out of it than I do.
So my ultimate analysis is that this is a thing that has a lot of utility - that it does impart grace and improves relationships with Christ - and that I'm the one who has the problem.

[GlennwaldSnowdenAssanged]

For me, I think the biggest thing is being honest with one self. No deceit with yourself. Admit all your short coming to yourself. Realize the past is not changeable and live in the moment. Accept the decisions you make now as your responsibility.
After that if you want to read scripture go at it. I see no need for validation from others because I know my own heart and intentions. I would have no need for congregating unless it is simply for social experience.
God and Religion is a personal experience.
That is my take. Good luck!

[ClaytonB]

Happens to be on-topic:

[mtr1979]

What is it about confession that you have an issue with?

I'll be perfectly open with you, I have issues with it, too. I don't go as often as I'm supposed to and I end up making up something that's not really bothering me a lot of the time. And I often get a response or advice that I don't find helpful.

But the thing is, I can clearly see I'm pretty alone in my assessment. I see other people going every week (including immediate family members) and they're clearly getting more out of it than I do.
So my ultimate analysis is that this is a thing that has a lot of utility - that it does impart grace and improves relationships with Christ - and that I'm the one who has the problem.

Show me in the Bible where I confess my sins to another man. I'll never be totally honest in confession so what is the point? It is also a way to control people. When the parish priest has everyone's dirty laundry he has control over people. I'm not willing to give up control to another person.

[fisharmor]

Show me in the Bible where I confess my sins to another man. I'll never be totally honest in confession so what is the point? It is also a way to control people. When the parish priest has everyone's dirty laundry he has control over people. I'm not willing to give up control to another person.

It's certainly true that the priest is in a position to misuse the information he gets during confession.

I guess the counterargument is that in church bodies that don't have confession, there's no headship in the pastor, and congregations have a much greater tendency to run buck wild. I'm not saying it doesn't happen in traditional churches - just that there's more of a tendency for the church council or the elders to go their own way as opposed to really trying to apply the teachings of Christ. Certainly every time I've seen someone get massively abused by a church, it's been a situation where the church leadership has clearly been ignoring the entire point of the religion. And the older I get the more clear it becomes that 4+ decades of reinforcing the idea that you don't ever have to confess to anyone eventually leads to congregations full of adults whose pride leads them into sin.

But, as I've already insinuated, confession isn't even for such people. Confession is for people who want to improve their relationships with Jesus Christ. If you want a church where everything is always fine and everyone has a great relationship with Jesus and it's just a gosh darn shame that we had to threaten legal action against the Joneses for their infant crying during services and the less we talk about that the better... then take your pick. That's literally everyone else.

If you want to be regularly reminded that you're supposed to be examining yourself and whether you're living a life that leads to a better relationship with Christ, and you want a church that has a way to encourage that, and you want a church that has an authority figure who is able to pull people aside when they're massively out of line and that it's not in any way ok to agitate for people you don't like getting kicked out and you probably literally have a demon, and you want to have at least a little recourse if something like that happens to you or someone you know... then that's a package deal and it includes confession. Well I can think of some other groups that manage to have that without confession but they also have rejected enough core teachings of Christianity that they're not really considered Christian by anyone but themselves.

In fact when I think about it, I notice that even in churches that practice confession, the ones where you may not get to go this week because there are so many people waiting, those are the ones that are really healthy parishes. And the ones where you have to make a special appointment because the pastor is busy doing other things, those are the ones that are unhealthy.
So I admit there are some places where confession isn't used appropriately. I just don't have any examples where the priest abuses his power - only examples where he doesn't use it at all.


Also, dude, the entire OT is full of examples of confessing to others - I mean the whole sackcloth and ashes thing is literally a public confession. There's also James 5:16 but I'm aware that post-1517 Christians wish they could just get rid of that whole book.

[Invisible Man]

Show me in the Bible where I confess my sins to another man.

James 5:16

Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working.

[mtr1979]

It's certainly true that the priest is in a position to misuse the information he gets during confession.

I guess the counterargument is that in church bodies that don't have confession, there's no headship in the pastor, and congregations have a much greater tendency to run buck wild. I'm not saying it doesn't happen in traditional churches - just that there's more of a tendency for the church council or the elders to go their own way as opposed to really trying to apply the teachings of Christ. Certainly every time I've seen someone get massively abused by a church, it's been a situation where the church leadership has clearly been ignoring the entire point of the religion. And the older I get the more clear it becomes that 4+ decades of reinforcing the idea that you don't ever have to confess to anyone eventually leads to congregations full of adults whose pride leads them into sin.

But, as I've already insinuated, confession isn't even for such people. Confession is for people who want to improve their relationships with Jesus Christ. If you want a church where everything is always fine and everyone has a great relationship with Jesus and it's just a gosh darn shame that we had to threaten legal action against the Joneses for their infant crying during services and the less we talk about that the better... then take your pick. That's literally everyone else.

If you want to be regularly reminded that you're supposed to be examining yourself and whether you're living a life that leads to a better relationship with Christ, and you want a church that has a way to encourage that, and you want a church that has an authority figure who is able to pull people aside when they're massively out of line and that it's not in any way ok to agitate for people you don't like getting kicked out and you probably literally have a demon, and you want to have at least a little recourse if something like that happens to you or someone you know... then that's a package deal and it includes confession. Well I can think of some other groups that manage to have that without confession but they also have rejected enough core teachings of Christianity that they're not really considered Christian by anyone but themselves.

In fact when I think about it, I notice that even in churches that practice confession, the ones where you may not get to go this week because there are so many people waiting, those are the ones that are really healthy parishes. And the ones where you have to make a special appointment because the pastor is busy doing other things, those are the ones that are unhealthy.
So I admit there are some places where confession isn't used appropriately. I just don't have any examples where the priest abuses his power - only examples where he doesn't use it at all.


Also, dude, the entire OT is full of examples of confessing to others - I mean the whole sackcloth and ashes thing is literally a public confession. There's also James 5:16 but I'm aware that post-1517 Christians wish they could just get rid of that whole book.

You're making a lot of good points. I need to put my pride aside and give up control.

I'm not a biblical scholar so I can't refute what you said about confessing to others, specifically James 5:16.

I'm torn because right now I'm going to an Assembly of God Church and honestly I don't like it. The only reason I go to this Church is because it is a bilingual service.

I have a question for you. In the Orthodox Church do people actually know and study the Bible? I ask this because Roman Catholics don't know the Bible. Maybe there are a few Roman Catholics who read and study the bible, but I have never met any.

[Invisible Man]

I have a question for you. In the Orthodox Church do people actually know and study the Bible? I ask this because Roman Catholics don't know the Bible. Maybe there are a few Roman Catholics who read and study the bible, but I have never met any.

I know a biblical scholar who worked on an important Bible translation. After it was published he gave a copy of it to his devout Roman Catholic mother, who said, "A Bible?! What am I going to do with that?!"

[fisharmor]

You're making a lot of good points. I need to put my pride aside and give up control.

Gosh me too... I apologize for some of the tone in my last post. On re-reading it comes off harsher than I meant.

I have a question for you. In the Orthodox Church do people actually know and study the Bible? I ask this because Roman Catholics don't know the Bible. Maybe there are a few Roman Catholics who read and study the bible, but I have never met any.

I'm happy to say absolutely. There are readings in the services (more on that later, it's important) and there are absolutely Bible studies. But if you ever visit an Orthodox parish you need to know that things seem... skewed. At first. But it's a false impression that seems silly after a while.
Not at first, of course. When you're coming from protestantism and first exposed to Orthodoxy you think 'man these people are spending WAY too much time talking about Mary and the saints - that's all time they could be going over Scripture'. Or at least that was my impression. My wife grew up in both worlds, and she was a lot more plugged into what was going on in Orthodox services, so when I complained to her that I didn't see as much Scripture in Orthodox services, she did a double-take and said something like 'what are you talking about, the whole thing is Scripture'.

For one currently relevant example, this is a Christmas hymn.


Most of the Orthodox liturgical music is like this. We don't have any bad Christmas music that has very little to do with what's happening - but we also don't have 'good' Christmas carols. We have Scripture pretty much directly set to music.

Even if it's a hymn that's not straight from Scripture, it always reads like this:
May heaven and earth rejoice prophetically this day.May angels and people spiritually celebrate,
for God appeared in the flesh to those groping in the darkness and resting in a shadow.
Having been born of a Virgin, a cave and a manger received Him.
Shepherds relate a miracle;
the Magi from the East bring gifts to Bethlehem,
while we, with unworthy lips, render Him angelic praise:
Glory to God in the highest and peace on earth,
for the hope of nations has arrived.
Having come, He has saved us from hostile bondage.

FYI, if you're wondering about the cave... Scripture never specifically says "a manger in a standalone stable" and we don't believe it was. There are traditional references to Mary giving birth in a cave and Orthodoxy holds to that because of the parallels - there are further hymns referring to Christ born in a cave and then his crucified body being placed in a cave and noting the significance of that. (There's a reason Pageau is Orthodox.) The point I'm ineptly making is we don't have hymns like Silent Night - a beautiful song that I enjoy very much, but comparatively it does little to teach Scripture nor to help foment understanding. I mean the hymn I quoted above is just a fragment offered for flavor - it goes on, and on.

Here's a better example from Easter. This part of the liturgy is the first thing that happens for Pascha at 11:30pm on Holy Saturday. But this is a particularly good example of how the liturgy draws from Scripture, and teaches Scripture as a result. It covers the creation, the Exodus, Isaiah, Jonah, Daniel, Habakkuk, just from memory, and ties it all together and says this thing that we're celebrating tonight is what all those stories are fundamentally about.


So the approach to this within Orthodoxy is generally like this. Orthodoxy is an experiential religion. You have to *do* it. That way, you get surrounded and inundated by references to Scripture. Also, Scripture is just straight chanted as readings. If a parish does all of the services for a year (TBH this is generally only at monasteries) then it's possible to hear all of Scripture read aloud in services in one year - minus Revelation. I can't say I 100% agree with this tradition but it isn't chanted in services - but the reason is because it's so easy to misinterpret & go off the rails (which I admit is a fact abundantly in evidence). Nevertheless, my parish is just finishing up a formal study on Revelation.

Which is a good segue into the fact that yes we do have studies, too. The approach of surrounding people with Scripture, and hammering in 'here's why we believe these doctrines, here are the references' isn't exactly the same as having formal studies. But it absolutely leads to formal studies. Because after a while hearing this stuff you naturally want to look it up (I was motivated to look up that Paschal reference to Habakkuk just last year) and you naturally want to ask questions. And Orthodoxy is, in my opinion, pretty dang great at having priests take the time to work with you.

As one last fun example: my brother-in-law priest serves at Saints Peter and Paul Orthodox in Philadelphia. It was there and from him that I learned why one of the two styles of icon of Saints Peter and Paul looks like this:




This is also taken from Scripture. Their argument is recorded in Galatians 2. But the Church depicts them as embracing. It's not just a reference to Scripture - it's also a theological statement. Even the apostles got into serious arguments. But no matter what they did in life, this is how they're spending eternity, and what we should strive for with each other.

[ClaytonB]

You're making a lot of good points. I need to put my pride aside and give up control.

I'm not a biblical scholar so I can't refute what you said about confessing to others, specifically James 5:16.

Note that James 5:16 was not written to the clergy of the church of Rome (neither historically, nor in any other sense). To whom was it written? " To the twelve tribes scattered among the nations:" (James 1:1) So, it was written to Jewish believers throughout the world (by proxy, it was also written to the Gentile believers since we are grafted into the 12 tribes by faith in Jesus, see Rom. 11:17,18 etc.) Therefore, James 5:16 is not establishing the sacrament of confession as Rome fancies it but, rather, it is exhorting us to practice confession and repentance between each other. See also Matt. 18:15-17, note particularly "just between the two of you". The root error is that Rome teaches a franchise priesthood (a subset of believers are priests), whereas Scriptures teaches the universal priesthood of all believers (1 Pet. 2:5,9, Rev. 1:6, 20:6). Thus, we are to confess our sins to one another, which logically entails that we are to hear those confessions from one another, as priests. Because that's what we are if we believe in Jesus. Sometimes, a brother needs to confess something to get it off their chest. Hearing confession is a service that believers in Jesus can perform for one another. But that's not even the particular topic in James 5:16. To amplify it a bit, "Don't wait for your brother to rebuke you when you sin; rather, proactively confess your sins to one another." Look at the verses prior (vv. 14,15) which are actually one thought with v. 16: "Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord, and the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up; if he has sinned, he will be forgiven; therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective." (James 5:14-16) Notice the flow of logic -- if someone is sick, call the elders to pray over him; (even) if he has sinned, he will be forgiven (and thus healed); THEREFORE (since no one wants to be sick) confess your sins to one another (proactively!) and pray for each other (for forgiveness and healing!) so that you may be healed.

[fisharmor]

Every year on the first Sunday in Great Lent, after the conclusion of liturgy, the priest announces to everyone that if he has done anything to offend anyone he asks for forgiveness.
Then the entire parish forms a line. One person walks up to the priest and the priest asks "Forgive me, a sinner" and the first person in line responds, "God forgives, and I forgive." And the parishioner asks the priest for forgiveness, and the priest responds.
Then that person stands next to the priest, and the second person in line does this with the priest, and then the first person who was in line asks the second person the same and they forgive each other, too. And so on, until the line goes out the church and into the parking lot and everyone who was there has asked for and given forgiveness to everyone else who was there.

It's not required. But if you do it, it's taken seriously. If it came out that someone had beef with someone else from before forgiveness vespers, I would expect everyone in the community to say hang on, that wasn't just a ritual. It was your time to get right with that person.

And no, there are no timeframes here. We do it at the beginning of Lent because Lent is a time during the year where we do extra reinforcing of what we're supposed to be doing year round.

This last Pascha our rector had us all line up and do it again but instead of asking forgiveness, we all said "Christ is Risen!" and responding "Truly He is Risen!"
Which was not only a perfect bookend, but we just got singing in Paschal Matins:
"Let us embrace each other joyously; Let us call brothers even those who hate us, and forgive all by the resurrection"

If you go through that process, you can tell who is taking it seriously and they can tell if you are, too. It's pretty intense. But it also works. And that's kind of what I've been saying this whole thread. If the Holy Spirit is real and actually gives us faith and ways to develop and nurture it - these are all doctrines I don't think any Christian would argue with - then I'm seeing a lot of results in places where I previously refused to look.