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Thread: The Old Right Opposed Tariffs

  1. #1

    The Old Right Opposed Tariffs


    Mises Wire
    Llewellyn H. Rockwell Jr.
    10/05/2024


    The Old Right was a principled band of intellectuals and activists, many of them libertarians, who fought the “industrial regimentation” of the New Deal, and were the first to note that, in America, statism and corporatism are inseparable.

    Despite some current claims, however, these writers ardently defended capitalism, including big business and corporations, celebrated the profit motive, and took a strict laissez-faire attitude towards international trade. They loathed tariffs, and saw protectionism as a species of socialist planning.

    Frank Chodorov was a central intellectual figure on the Right from the 1920s to the 1950s, editing the early Freeman magazine and founding Human Events and the Intercollegiate Studies Institute. A prolific writer, Chodorov guided two generations of students and activists to the literature of liberty, and urged no compromise with the central state.

    He proudly wore the label “isolationist” and saw entry into the two world wars as a mistake because they bolstered militarism and big government in America. To Chodorov, isolationism was “not a political policy,” but the proper and “natural attitude.” People are rightly concerned with family and neighbors, he said, not foreign peoples and their troubles.

    But, as he made clear, Chodorov’s isolationism had nothing to do with international economics. Free trade with other nations is part of the normal working of the economy, which stems from being concerned with the well being of our families. Chodorov was aghast and angered when some people tried to make “America First” mean “Buy American”: that is, “economic, rather than political, isolationism.”

    Economic isolationism—tariffs, quotas, embargoes, and general governmental interference with international trade—is an “irritant that can well lead to war,” he wrote. “To build a trade wall around a country is to invite reprisals,” and generates “misunderstanding and mistrust.” To Chodorov, “Free trade is natural, protectionism is political.”

    John T. Flynn, the great journalist and leader of the America First Committee, agreed with Chodorov. “The last seventy years of American history,” he wrote in 1944, “have been a struggle between the ideal of free enterprise and the determination to restrain and regiment it.” Business “comprises the whole immense web of producing and distributing enterprises,” but tragically, “some men, for various reasons, set out to interfere in the natural workings of this immense organism.”

    Flynn condemns domestic industrial planning because it leads to trade barriers. “The first condition of a planned economy is that it shall be a closed economy,” he wrote. That’s why socialists want “an impenetrable wall around” the nation, “keeping out everybody and every kind of goods and striving for a complete self-sufficiency. Of course, this is not practical anywhere.”

    Although a nationalist, Flynn understood the difference between caring about one‘s country first and trade restriction, which he saw as having a socialist and fascist pedigree. The link between protection and planning, he pointed out, was not disputed even on the left. To Stuart Chase, the New Dealer who coined the term, “national planning” and economic nationalism must go together or not at all.

    Flynn’s view, toughened with a right-wing anarchist edge, was also that of Albert Jay Nock, the social critic who inspired several generations with his biting attacks on collectivism, egalitarianism, and modernity. As a writer for Harper’s, he helped make anti-statism the political center of pre-war American conservatism.

    He too was against entering any foreign war, and could thus be fairly described as an “isolationist.” But protectionist? “We all now know pretty well,” he wrote in 1935, “that the primary reason for a tariff is that it enables the exploitation of the domestic consumer by a process indistinguishable from sheer robbery.”


    "By putting a tariff against the importation, say, of wool, the State permits the domestic wool-producing interests to levy a tax upon consumers of wool to the amount of the excess in price over the price determined by supply and demand in a free competitive market. These interests give the consumer nothing in return for the tax; the State gives them as beneficiaries, the privilege of levying it, and they accordingly do so."


    Felix Morley was more of a traditionalist. He won the hearts of conservatives by defecting as editor of the Washington Post and later becoming editor of Human Events, as well as the author of brilliant books on federalism and foreign policy. He was an America Firster, an isolationist, and a right-wing populist to boot.

    But when it came to free enterprise, there was no compromise: it must not stop at the border. “Unrestricted competition is essential to economic freedom,” he wrote. “Indeed, it can be said that competition is freedom, as distinct from the personal attribute of liberty.“ ”It follows that in an advancing civilization the objective with regard to the market will always be the removal of restrictions to trade.”

    But when Morley doubted that businessmen would be the best defenders of the market. They too often seek to protect themselves from competition in the name of free enterprise. “Time and again,” he wrote, “those who argued for competition have, in practice, leaned toward monopolistic operations. Advocates of the free market have worked openly and surreptitiously for high tariffs and other governmental favors.”

    The preeminent economic theorist of the Old Right was Henry Hazlitt. Kicked out of The Nation because he opposed FDR’s National Recovery Act, he was made editor of The American Mercury by H.L. Mencken. During the heyday of Keynesianism, Hazlitt thrilled the free-market right with his editorials in Newsweek. He was also second to none in his hatred of all forms of government intervention, including protectionism and economic nationalism.

    Hazlitt’s Economics In One Lesson, still in print after fifty years, devotes two chapters to the tissue of fallacies that is the case for protectionism and subsidized exports. As Hazlitt demonstrates, “The tariff—though it may increase wages above what they would have been in the protected industries—must on net balance, when all occupations are considered, reduce real wages.”

    There were Old Rightists who worried about free international trade. Toward the end of his life, essayist Garet Garrett came to favor closed borders—to both imports and exports—because he worried about the war potential of forcing foreign consumers to buy US products. At the same time, big business never had a greater champion than Garrett. A biographer rightly called him “Profit’s Prophet.”

    Current restrictionist trade theories in the conservative movement, therefore, are not those of the Old Right. Their intellectual legacy is more likely British mercantilism.

    The Old Right saw Britain’s influence on American foreign policy as entirely pernicious. And we can add to Albion’s litany of crimes, her influence on our economic policy.



    https://mises.org/mises-wire/old-right-opposed-tariffs

    ____________


    Mises Institute

    An Agorist Primer ~ Samuel Edward Konkin III (free PDF download)

    The End of All Evil ~ Jeremy Locke (free PDF download)



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  3. #2
    Tariffs are a tax. Conservatives oppose tariffs.
    __________________________________________________ ________________
    "A politician will do almost anything to keep their job, even become a patriot" - Hearst

  4. #3
    __________________________________________________ ________________
    "A politician will do almost anything to keep their job, even become a patriot" - Hearst

  5. #4
    That was back when people on the “right” actually had a decent, fundamental understanding of economics. Oh, and they actually opposed, you know, socialism.
    Chris

    "Government ... does not exist of necessity, but rather by virtue of a tragic, almost comical combination of klutzy, opportunistic terrorism against sitting ducks whom it pretends to shelter, plus our childish phobia of responsibility, praying to be exempted from the hard reality of life on life's terms." Wolf DeVoon

    "...Make America Great Again. I'm interested in making American FREE again. Then the greatness will come automatically."Ron Paul

  6. #5
    Economic isolationism—tariffs, quotas, embargoes, and general governmental interference with international trade—is an “irritant that can well lead to war,” he wrote. “To build a trade wall around a country is to invite reprisals,” and generates “misunderstanding and mistrust.”
    Good

    For very similar reasons that I have isolated myself from other people as much as possible, I would want my nation to do the same

    $#@! other people. $#@! other nations. They bring nothing but trouble.

    This world has become far too integrated with each other and it's brought nothing but harm to everyone from both an economic and liberty perspective.

    Bring on the isolationism.
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Crenshaw 2024!!!!

    My pronouns are he/him/his

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTexan View Post
    Good

    For very similar reasons that I have isolated myself from other people as much as possible, I would want my nation to do the same

    $#@! other people. $#@! other nations. They bring nothing but trouble.

    This world has become far too integrated with each other and it's brought nothing but harm to everyone from both an economic and liberty perspective.

    Bring on the isolationism.
    I don’t see much turmoil between Italy and Aruba, or New Zealand and Costa Rica, or Mexico and China. I see all the turmoil caused by the USofA.

    Is there a way to isolate from the US government, without having it hunt you down to take your money?
    ____________


    Mises Institute

    An Agorist Primer ~ Samuel Edward Konkin III (free PDF download)

    The End of All Evil ~ Jeremy Locke (free PDF download)

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    I don’t see much turmoil between Italy and Aruba, or New Zealand and Costa Rica, or Mexico and China. I see all the turmoil caused by the USofA.

    Is there a way to isolate from the US government, without having it hunt you down to take your money?

    Not to mention the fact that isolationist societies throughout history have almost always been backward, stagnant societies that usually suffered under some form of brutal, feudal dictatorships. It’s only been after they’ve abandoned their foolish isolationism that they were able to move in the direction of greater freedom and prosperity, although there are certainly no guarantees that the will/would.
    Chris

    "Government ... does not exist of necessity, but rather by virtue of a tragic, almost comical combination of klutzy, opportunistic terrorism against sitting ducks whom it pretends to shelter, plus our childish phobia of responsibility, praying to be exempted from the hard reality of life on life's terms." Wolf DeVoon

    "...Make America Great Again. I'm interested in making American FREE again. Then the greatness will come automatically."Ron Paul

  9. #8
    False, the real old right supported tariffs instead of all other taxes.

    Cherry picking history won't change the fact that free trade was a globalist leftist innovation designed to overthrow the status quo and empower the rootless cosmopolitan banksters.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by CCTelander View Post
    Not to mention the fact that isolationist societies throughout history have almost always been backward, stagnant societies that usually suffered under some form of brutal, feudal dictatorships. It’s only been after they’ve abandoned their foolish isolationism that they were able to move in the direction of greater freedom and prosperity, although there are certainly no guarantees that the will/would.
    Oh, we're going to throw that lie around like it was thrown at noninterventionists now?
    Isolationist trade is the banning of all foreign trade, not the placing of tariffs.
    America grew its economic muscles on tariffs and atrophied them on free trade.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    I don’t see much turmoil between Italy and Aruba, or New Zealand and Costa Rica, or Mexico and China. I see all the turmoil caused by the USofA.
    Then you are blind or lying.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Collins View Post
    Tariffs are a tax. Conservatives oppose tariffs.
    Now, conservatives support tariffs as opposed to other taxes, just like Trump.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Oh, we're going to throw that lie around like it was thrown at noninterventionists now?
    Isolationist trade is the banning of all foreign trade, not the placing of tariffs.
    America grew its economic muscles on tariffs and atrophied them on free trade.

    Please spare me your bull$#@! straw manning. My commentscwere a direct counterpoint to @TheTexan advocating actual isolationism, nothing more.

    And also please spare us the bull$#@! lie that tariffs are the causitive agent behind American prosperity, and that free trade destroyed it. Only people naive enough to belive that protectionist shill Ian Fletcher fall for that crap.
    Chris

    "Government ... does not exist of necessity, but rather by virtue of a tragic, almost comical combination of klutzy, opportunistic terrorism against sitting ducks whom it pretends to shelter, plus our childish phobia of responsibility, praying to be exempted from the hard reality of life on life's terms." Wolf DeVoon

    "...Make America Great Again. I'm interested in making American FREE again. Then the greatness will come automatically."Ron Paul

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by CCTelander View Post
    Not to mention the fact that isolationist societies throughout history have almost always been backward, stagnant societies that usually suffered under some form of brutal, feudal dictatorships. It’s only been after they’ve abandoned their foolish isolationism that they were able to move in the direction of greater freedom and prosperity, although there are certainly no guarantees that the will/would.
    Every society was an isolationist society before roughly the 1950's, just by the physical restrictions of travel.

    The world did just fine without having everybody in the world co-mingle with each other. This idea of full global economic and cultural integration is an extremely new, extremely untested (hint: does not look great so far) state of affairs.
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Crenshaw 2024!!!!

    My pronouns are he/him/his

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTexan View Post
    Every society was an isolationist society before roughly the 1950's, just by the physical restrictions of travel.

    The world did just fine without having everybody in the world co-mingle with each other. This idea of full global economic and cultural integration is an extremely new, extremely untested (hint: does not look great so far) state of affairs.

    Your initial statement is patently false. I don’t know where you get these ideas but history clearly demonstrates quite thevreverse.
    Chris

    "Government ... does not exist of necessity, but rather by virtue of a tragic, almost comical combination of klutzy, opportunistic terrorism against sitting ducks whom it pretends to shelter, plus our childish phobia of responsibility, praying to be exempted from the hard reality of life on life's terms." Wolf DeVoon

    "...Make America Great Again. I'm interested in making American FREE again. Then the greatness will come automatically."Ron Paul

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by CCTelander View Post
    Your initial statement is patently false. I don’t know where you get these ideas but history clearly demonstrates quite thevreverse.
    Heh, if you say so. I'm sure they were shipping 300,000 metric tons of oil across the ocean on a single ship back in the 1600's
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Crenshaw 2024!!!!

    My pronouns are he/him/his

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTexan View Post
    Heh, if you say so. I'm sure they were shipping 300,000 metric tons of oil across the ocean on a single ship back in the 1600's

    Oh please. I love ta like a brother man, but it’schard to take ignorant comments like this seriously. Read a frekin’ history book ffs.
    Chris

    "Government ... does not exist of necessity, but rather by virtue of a tragic, almost comical combination of klutzy, opportunistic terrorism against sitting ducks whom it pretends to shelter, plus our childish phobia of responsibility, praying to be exempted from the hard reality of life on life's terms." Wolf DeVoon

    "...Make America Great Again. I'm interested in making American FREE again. Then the greatness will come automatically."Ron Paul



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by CCTelander View Post
    Oh please. I love ta like a brother man, but it’schard to take ignorant comments like this seriously. Read a frekin’ history book ffs.
    It's an ignorant statement to point out that the realities of travel and transportation meant that most trade was done locally/regionally and that most people who lived in an area were born within that region?

    You've got nothing but insults today. Worm crawl up your butt? Tax man send you a letter? How about you provide some substance to your retorts instead of blanket insults about ignorance.
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Crenshaw 2024!!!!

    My pronouns are he/him/his

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    False, the real old right supported tariffs instead of all other taxes.
    People talk about ending the Fed and how that would solve so many problems.

    Well, if the US was only allowed to collect taxes through tariffs, that would solve just as many problems, if not more.
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Crenshaw 2024!!!!

    My pronouns are he/him/his

  22. #19
    Case study: Japan

    Source: Googled "japan isolationism" and this was provided as an AI generated result.

    ================================================== ============================

    Japan's isolationist period, known as Sakoku, lasted from 1639 to 1853. During this time, Japan was largely closed off from the rest of the world, with strict regulations on trade, travel, and information. The policy was intended to protect Japan's culture and stability, and to develop its own industries.

    Here are some of the effects of Japan's isolationist period:
    Cultural flourishing
    Japan's unique culture, customs, and ways of life flourished, leading to the rise of cultural touchstones like haiku poetry, kabuki theater, wood-block prints, the tea ceremony, landscape gardening, and bonsai trees.
    Economic prosperity
    Japan's economy thrived, with the country becoming self-sufficient in resources, energy, and food.
    Urbanization
    Japan's capital, Edo, grew from a small fishing village to the world's largest city in a century and a half.
    Sustainable lifestyle
    Japanese people lived a sustainable lifestyle, known as the “slow life”, based on wasting as little as possible.
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Crenshaw 2024!!!!

    My pronouns are he/him/his

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    I don’t see much turmoil between Italy and Aruba, or New Zealand and Costa Rica, or Mexico and China. I see all the turmoil caused by the USofA.

    Is there a way to isolate from the US government, without having it hunt you down to take your money?
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Then you are blind or lying.

    ____________


    Mises Institute

    An Agorist Primer ~ Samuel Edward Konkin III (free PDF download)

    The End of All Evil ~ Jeremy Locke (free PDF download)

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTexan View Post
    It's an ignorant statement to point out that the realities of travel and transportation meant that most trade was done locally/regionally and that most people who lived in an area were born within that region?
    Humans have always traded at a distance. And in the last 400 years it has grown exponentially. Steam engines, diesel engines, and then shipping containers. Trade is good for the economy.




    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WyNkcsQGaV4
    Last edited by Matt Collins; 10-06-2024 at 07:43 AM.
    __________________________________________________ ________________
    "A politician will do almost anything to keep their job, even become a patriot" - Hearst

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Now, conservatives support tariffs as opposed to other taxes, just like Trump.
    If Trump could eliminate all other taxes and simply fund (a much smaller) government through tariffs, that would be a huge step in the right direction. But Trump will likely not be able to shrink the government and he has proven he doesn't care about cutting spending. I do think he plans to cut regulation a lot, which is good, and he wants to grow his way out of the government's debt problem, but again, that probably isn't realistic. He should know better, he isn't dumb. Growth alone isn't going to solve the problem, there have to be cuts, which there is never the political will to do. Oh, and Congress has to go along with it too which is unlikely.
    __________________________________________________ ________________
    "A politician will do almost anything to keep their job, even become a patriot" - Hearst

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTexan View Post
    Good

    For very similar reasons that I have isolated myself from other people as much as possible, I would want my nation to do the same

    $#@! other people. $#@! other nations. They bring nothing but trouble.

    This world has become far too integrated with each other and it's brought nothing but harm to everyone from both an economic and liberty perspective.

    Bring on the isolationism.
    Don't confuse isolationism with non-intervention. Commerce and trade is good, entangling military and political alliances are not.
    __________________________________________________ ________________
    "A politician will do almost anything to keep their job, even become a patriot" - Hearst

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    America grew its economic muscles on tariffs and atrophied them on free trade.
    So this is a myth. First off free trade is good for the economy. But like with many things, we don't actually have free trade because the government intervenes and creates all sorts of rules and regulations for trade, ensuring that it isn't actually free.
    __________________________________________________ ________________
    "A politician will do almost anything to keep their job, even become a patriot" - Hearst



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Collins View Post
    Humans have always traded at a distance. And in the last 400 years it has grown exponentially. Steam engines, diesel engines, and then shipping containers. Trade is good for the economy.
    You are correct that in the last 400 years it has grown exponentially. Which then arrives at my point: the trade we have today is quantitatively and qualitatively different than anything we have seen in the past. The quantity is obviously much higher and the nature is similarly much different. In the past, international economic competitive advantage was largely based on regional abundances of raw materials. Today, international economic competitive advantage is largely based on differences in labor costs. It was never historically feasible to save money on labor by getting it built 6,000 miles away and then transporting it.

    It is far too early to say that trade is "good" for the economy. There are scenarios where trade is provably bad for an economy.* It also depends on how you define "the economy". If your interest is the economic outcome of the world as a whole, then yes, global trade is economically a good thing. If your interest is the economic outcome of your local economy, then no, it's not quite as clear as that (as proven in the scenario). It may very well be the case that modern trade, being based on short-term differences in labor costs vs other forms of economic advantage, is overall a detriment to a local economy.

    Even if we do accept that trade is an overall economic good, that still does not make it however an overall net good. There are cultural, sovereignty, and security costs that come at potentially a heavy price with full global economic integration.


    * (Scenario referenced above is at this link: http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post7231881)
    Last edited by TheTexan; 10-06-2024 at 08:04 AM.
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Crenshaw 2024!!!!

    My pronouns are he/him/his

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Collins View Post
    Don't confuse isolationism with non-intervention. Commerce and trade is good, entangling military and political alliances are not.
    Commerce and trade in limited quantities is good. But when you start trading for things that you should (as a responsible adult, and/or nation) be producing yourself, that's when it starts doing more harm than good.

    If you inherit a fully functional corn farm from your grandparents, it would be extremely irresponsible to sell off the farm, spend your cash on hookers and coke, and then take on debt so you can afford corn to feed yourself with. That is what we have done as a nation, and that is what modern trade has taken the form of.
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Crenshaw 2024!!!!

    My pronouns are he/him/his

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTexan View Post
    Commerce and trade in limited quantities is good. But when you start trading for things that you should (as a responsible adult, and/or nation) be producing yourself, that's when it starts doing more harm than good.
    This is economic ignorance at its height. Specialization is critical, buy stuff from people who are efficient at making said stuff. Make something on your own and then sell it to market too. The idea of making things yourself for your own consumption is economically idiotic. (I'm not talking about prepping, gardening, hobbies, etc here).




    Quote Originally Posted by TheTexan View Post
    If you inherit a fully functional corn farm from your grandparents, it would be extremely irresponsible to sell off the farm, spend your cash on hookers and coke, and then take on debt so you can afford corn to feed yourself with.
    On a personal level, the best thing to do would be to sell it off, and invest the proceeds while gaining a skill or trade to bring in cashflow.
    __________________________________________________ ________________
    "A politician will do almost anything to keep their job, even become a patriot" - Hearst

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTexan View Post
    It is far too early to say that trade is "good" for the economy.
    You just failed business 101. All equitable transactions benefit both sides of the transaction.


    Now what you may have a legitimate problem with is that to be hoenst a lot of trade today isn't equitable... and it isn't because governments intervene (due to restrictions, tariffs, etc).

    Free trade is undeniably good for the economy. But like with everything else, it isn't truly free because the government screws it up.



    Quote Originally Posted by TheTexan View Post
    If your interest is the economic outcome of your local economy, then no, it's not quite as clear as that (as proven in the scenario).
    This is again, economic ignorance. Industries and firm propped up by artificial government stimulus, handouts, restrictions, grants, taxes, subsidies, etc are clearly inefficient and needs to be liquidated. If a business can't compete, then it shouldn't be in business.






    Quote Originally Posted by TheTexan View Post
    There are cultural, sovereignty, and security costs that come at potentially a heavy price with full global economic integration.
    Not really. Where are you getting told all of these myths? Not sure what you read but you should probably find some better more reliable freedom-oriented sources for your understanding of economics.
    __________________________________________________ ________________
    "A politician will do almost anything to keep their job, even become a patriot" - Hearst

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Collins View Post
    This is economic ignorance at its height. Specialization is critical, buy stuff from people who are efficient at making said stuff. Make something on your own and then sell it to market too. The idea of making things yourself for your own consumption is economically idiotic. (I'm not talking about prepping, gardening, hobbies, etc here).
    The point was, a responsible adult will limit how many irresponsible trades they make. As an individual, irresponsible trades can look like paying exorbitant fees to get groceries delivered to you when the grocery store is 3 blocks away. I do this personally because I can afford it but it's expensive and addictive and even though I can afford it, it is still quite irresponsible as I'm not doing anything "productive" with the time I'm saving. I'm just being exceptionally lazy.

    These irresponsible trades destroy personal wealth. Or more accurately, that wealth gets transferred. When you buy hookers and coke, yes both sides benefit in terms of value, but only one side benefits in terms of wealth.

    The same thing happens at a national level. Nations can make irresponsible trades. If a nation sells its means of production, and then spends that money on consumption products - which is what this nation did - then that is an irresponsible trade.

    There is almost no such thing as "specialization" when it comes to countries the size of the US. There are very few products that other countries can produce better due to advantages other than simply labor cost. (Exceptions including, tropical produce, a few rare minerals, etc)

    I have proven that these labor-cost based trades can be detrimental to a country's economy. (See, the referenced link from earlier) I welcome any attempts to disprove it.


    On a personal level, the best thing to do would be to sell it off, and invest the proceeds while gaining a skill or trade to bring in cashflow.
    Which is fine also. If you sell means of production, and reinvest it in other means of production, that's a perfectly healthy - and responsible - exchange.

    If you sell your countries' nearly entire means of production, so your country can have 40 years of cheaper plastic goods from China, and reinvest none of the savings into your infrastructure, that is not quite... responsible.
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Crenshaw 2024!!!!

    My pronouns are he/him/his

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Collins View Post
    You just failed business 101. All equitable transactions benefit both sides of the transaction.
    If a business spends all their money on hookers and coke, it is indeed an equitable transaction with both sides benefiting. But that business is still gonna go out of business no matter how equitable it was.

    You just failed business 102.


    Free trade is undeniably good for the economy.
    I welcome any attempts to disprove the scenario I linked. The scenario I have provided proves the above statement wrong. (that it is "undeniably" good)



    Not really. Where are you getting told all of these myths? Not sure what you read but you should probably find some better more reliable freedom-oriented sources for your understanding of economics.
    A myth? Your outright dismissal of the claim that global economic integration has costs in cultural, sovereignty, and security, makes you look like a religious fanatic of free trade, rather than a critical thinking individual.

    The risks to culture, sovereignty, and security seems to me at least extremely obvious, but I am happy to detail what I meant by that.


    Culture

    The global language has become English and other languages are rapidly declining in use and will be effectively extinct within generations. The free movement of people and products is rapidly leading to the global homogenization of culture where everyone and everything is the same. No matter where you go in the world you can find a Pizza Hut or a McDonalds and while even those have regional differences now they will eventually all be the exact same.

    The global export of Hollywood and its formative impacts on children is gradually aligning everyone in the world to the same customs & values, which is exacerbated by the free movement of people.

    If we look at Iran, they have (largely) managed to retain its cultural customs & values despite western unpopularity of its ideals. The limitations of trade with Iran have almost certainly helped them to retain their culture. If they were fully exposed to free trade over the past 50 years or so, their culture would likely look radically different than it does today.

    Meanwhile, America's culture has become diluted (if not outright destroyed) by the free movement of people that have come into it. Baseball is often cited as a part of American culture. Last year's World Series was the least-watched World Series of all time (https://www.baseball-almanac.com/ws/wstv.shtml)

    The impact to America's ideals and values is unfortunately more abstract and less measurable, but still incredibly impactful. Gone are the concepts of "Rugged independence", "pulling yourself up by your bootstraps". It's now all about common welfare and safety nets.

    We are leading to a global homogenization of culture and this has serious risks to sovereignty, both nationally, and more generally, as I will explain below.

    Sovereignty

    Free trade poses multiple risks to sovereignty. In the long term, the erosion of culture and national identity will remove the largest barrier to a One World Government. When everyone in the world speaks the same language, shares similar values, laughs at the same jokes, has similar political systems, and uses the same currency, there will be no remaining cultural barriers to a global One World Government. This is perhaps the most important sovereignty risk as there will be nowhere to hide once this is done.

    Other more immediate risks to sovereignty are more straight forward. If your country has a reliance on foreign trade for a product, the countries that provide that product can exert influence over you, either individually, or as a group. Even if you have multiple trading partners available, short-term reductions in supply from a single partner can have impactful consequences to your economy. This effect is exacerbated by specialization, which is a "good thing" economically, but certainly bad when it comes to protecting your sovereignty.

    Security

    We saw this during COVID, it shouldn't require much explanation. If your country relies on computer chips to function, and those computer chips are supplied via container ships across the pacific ocean, then those products cannot be reliably depended upon in terms of international crisis/strife/warfare.

    If we were to theoretically "specialize" (which is a "good thing") all of our food production to countries across the various oceans, exactly how $#@!ed would we be if those supply lines were cut off due to war or crisis? Pretty damn $#@!ed, is what the answer.

    As I've said before, there are irresponsible trades, that just because you can make, doesn't mean you should. Even if these trades "save money".
    Last edited by TheTexan; 10-06-2024 at 06:34 PM.
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Crenshaw 2024!!!!

    My pronouns are he/him/his

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