Right-Wing Obtuseness on Immigration

[jmdrake]

Thought experiment for you:

Imagine there was a hidden village of 1000 people who for 1000 years had no contact with the outside world and for 1000 years they lived in total prosperity. They all shared extremely similar values and as such there was virtually no violence, strife, or crime. It wasn't a perfect utopia, but compared to the rest of the world, it was. They had wealth, safety, land, and happiness.

Then imagine that the magical wall that kept them invisible suddenly came down. They make it an open policy to let anyone cross into their lands. News spreads across the world about this small country with immense wealth and opportunity.

How do you think this village is gonna fare? Do they 1) prosper further from all the nice immigrants coming in, or 2) get ransacked by Venezuelans and get left for dead in their backyards

That utopia did exist back in the 1900's. It was called America. It wasn't a perfect Utopia, but compared to the rest of the world, it was.

There was no "magical invisible wall" keeping people out in the 1970s when I was a kid and we were able to walk across the border to Mexico to get a birthday pinata and walk back without knowing when we crossed. During that same trip it was harder to get from Arizona to California because there was a fruit quarantine going on. I think tht's @PAF's point. The more the government has gotten involved the worse the immigration problem has become.

[jmdrake]

And that's just the welfare... There are also huge government payouts to support this grift. Here's just one recent announcement:



If anyone is under the assumption that we're seeing a natural migration of people just yearning to breathe free, a little research should dispel them of this notion. And what's worse is that the beneficiaries of this spending isn't just the migrants, but a whole industry stood up to profit off them and a democratic party that is encouraging it in order to secure power.

Yeah. Like the Democrats can pass $780 million dollar spending packages without Republican acquiessance. But thanks for the additional data! Now if only there was a presidential candidate or VP candidate that would talk about immigration in terms of dollars and cents as opposed to cats and dogs. Rand Paul/Thomas Massie 2028?

[Invisible Man]

There was no "magical invisible wall" keeping people out in the 1970s when I was a kid and we were able to walk across the border to Mexico to get a birthday pinata and walk back without knowing when we crossed. During that same trip it was harder to get from Arizona to California because there was a fruit quarantine going on. I think tht's @PAF's point. The more the government has gotten involved the worse the immigration problem has become.

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to jmdrake again."

[CaptUSA]

Yeah. Like the Democrats can pass $780 million dollar spending packages without Republican acquiessance. But thanks for the additional data! Now if only there was a presidential candidate or VP candidate that would talk about immigration in terms of dollars and cents as opposed to cats and dogs. Rand Paul/Thomas Massie 2028?

Right?

And that's just one program. There are dozens of those buried in other spending bills throughout federal and state governments. They spend billions of our dollars making these problems worse! I guess it helps the GOP with fundraising and helps the Dems with power structures.

Like always, the answer is less government. If we could shut that stuff down, immigration wouldn't be the issue it is. But to just open the borders while these things are in place will make it even worse!

[TheTexan]

That is ironic that you started this part of the discussion by saying America was a nation, long before it was a "government".

It was Lincoln who made it a nation. Before him, America wasn't even a nation. Notice that the word "nation" never occurs in the US Constitution. And, unless I'm mistaken, I think that it was only around the time of Lincoln that the USA started to be called a nation, at least with much frequency.

Lincoln took 2 (or more) nations and tied them together with duct tape. So yes, while he did make a nation, it was created through aggression and was destined to fail eventually.

[TheTexan]

There was no "magical invisible wall" keeping people out in the 1970s when I was a kid and we were able to walk across the border to Mexico to get a birthday pinata and walk back without knowing when we crossed. During that same trip it was harder to get from Arizona to California because there was a fruit quarantine going on. I think tht's @PAF's point. The more the government has gotten involved the worse the immigration problem has become.

There was an invisible wall. Two invisible walls, actually. One was called the Atlantic, and the other was called the Pacific.

Affordable air travel in the 1970's was basically the death knell of any semblance of cultural identity America had left.

[PAF]

Right?

And that's just one program. There are dozens of those buried in other spending bills throughout federal and state governments. They spend billions of our dollars making these problems worse! I guess it helps the GOP with fundraising and helps the Dems with power structures.

Like always, the answer is less government. If we could shut that stuff down, immigration wouldn't be the issue it is. But to just open the borders while these things are in place will make it even worse!

Bingo.

But, the border is not "open" as many claim. That is msm/government propaganda which is used to make people want the government to "do something".

The border is closed. Meaning, when people come from other places, whether it's for work, pleasure, or simply to immigrate, they are checked and processed and given permission by government goons to enter/leave. In the case of immigrants, they are being funneled into check points, at which they are processed, and given paperwork to become "legalized". Once "legalized", they work according to government regulations and taxation, including "minimum wage", and allowed access to government programs and benefits on the tax payer dime.

Years ago before government was so entrenched, immigrants [and you and I] were able to cross the border freely as @jmdrake noted earlier. For those concerned about "wide-spread catastrophic diseases which would end the worlds population as we know it!!!", a simple medical check would suffice.

If we returned to undocumented rather than "illegal", that would ease the burden of the tax-payer, and after work-season is over immigrants could simply return back home freely as they did years ago. But the government considers people as cattle/slaves and would rather keep them "legalized" in order to obtain more tax money, while draining the tax payers who foot the bill. It is a vicious cycle where the left feed the right feed the left. And in order to clamp down tighter to "fix the problem" that they created, more police-state is implemented where government public/private contractors rake it in.

[Brian4Liberty]

That utopia did exist back in the 1900's. It was called America. It wasn't a perfect Utopia, but compared to the rest of the world, it was.

You're still in that ridiculous left/right paradigm so it's moot to even discuss. Follow the Money, for starters.

I think it's best that one starts defending/protecting ones own rights before advocating "solutions" that are designed to enslave one [all humans] further.

Follow the money indeed. The first waves of massive immigration were required to conquer, settle, and hold the entirety of what is now the US. It was a great replacement of the native population. This was profitable for many, more for some than others.

Then immigration was required for cheap labor. This was profitable for many, more for some than others.

Then immigration was required for cheap labor, ignorant votes, and and to divide the US. This was profitable for many, more for some than others.

Then the US was no more, and the glorious one world government took full control. Migration and movement became very tightly controlled. Only those with a high enough social credit score were allowed to move or travel. This was profitable for many, more for some than others.

History doesn't repeat itself, but it often rhymes.

[PAF]

Follow the money indeed. The first waves of massive immigration were required to conquer, settle, and hold the entirety of what is now the US. It was a great replacement of the native population. This was profitable for many, more for some than others.

Then immigration was required for cheap labor. This was profitable for many, more for some than others.

Then immigration was required for cheap labor, ignorant votes, and and to divide the US. This was profitable for many, more for some than others.

Then the US was no more, and the glorious one world government took full control. Migration and movement became very tightly controlled. Only those with a high enough social credit score were allowed to move or travel. This was profitable for many, more for some than others.

History doesn't repeat itself, but it often rhymes.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you are advocating, or at least making a case, for government imposed minimum wage on both employer and employee, negating contract rights between said employer/employee. If so, what wage do you determine should be set? When milk is priced at $19.99/gallon? $29.99/gallon?

I know plenty of red-blooded white Americans who have lived here their entire lives who "vote" for socialism. Should I blanket label them as well?

I have encountered lots of Karens and MAGA-cap wearers who pretty much don't care what is taught in schools [there are some exceptions], as long as they have a place where their kids can be baby-sat while they are at work. If they actually were worried, local schools wouldn't be as bad as they are. So far, I personally haven't seen droves of Ecuadorians or Chinese folks taking over the school boards in my area, yet as far as education goes they far from pass the muster. So far as I know, the Japanese actually take pride in learning, maybe Americans can learn something from them.

I think more people need to get off of their @sses and take some personal responsibility before blaming "other". At that point, maybe we can then address your "concerns".

Sorry, Brian, my world view is different than most. Sometimes I consider whether I am right or wrong, but history has repeatedly shown that doing the same things over and over again [laziness] has caused our consistent downward spiral. Based on that, perhaps we should try things my way for a change [more personal responsibility and hard work] just to see what happens.

[Swordsmyth]

Globalist corporatarians selling their country and liberty for a fistful of dollars. (which they will have taken from them by those they sell their souls to)

[PAF]

Globalist corporatarians selling their country and liberty for a fistful of dollars. (which they will have taken from them by those they sell their souls to)

Choose between the two:

Are you a Closet Democrat, or an out in the open one?

The Gradual Leftward Shift in US Politics and Economy

[jmdrake]

Globalist corporatarians selling their country and liberty for a fistful of dollars. (which they will have taken from them by those they sell their souls to)

Gee. If there was only a presidential candidate who would make the money issue front and center of the immigration debate:



Rand Paul/Thomas Massie 2028.

It's not like you have to convince a majority of Americans on the immigration issue:



And of course foreign policy that creates the migration crises around the worldl needs to be address.

[Brian4Liberty]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you are advocating, or at least making a case, for government imposed minimum wage on both employer and employee, negating contract rights between said employer/employee. If so, what wage do you determine should be set? When milk is priced at $19.99/gallon? $29.99/gallon?

You are wrong. And you are straw-manning and deflecting.

You wanted to follow the money, I followed the money. You just don't like the answer.

[PAF]

You are wrong. And you are straw-manning and deflecting.

You wanted to follow the money, I followed the money. You just don't like the answer.

I followed the money. Vance, not me, is the one who called for a $20 "minimum wage", so why get upset at me?

The Gradual Leftward Shift in US Politics and Economy

[Brian4Liberty]

Follow the money indeed. The first waves of massive immigration were required to conquer, settle, and hold the entirety of what is now the US. It was a great replacement of the native population. This was profitable for many, more for some than others.

Then immigration was required for cheap labor. This was profitable for many, more for some than others.

Then immigration was required for cheap labor, ignorant votes, and and to divide the US. This was profitable for many, more for some than others.

Then the US was no more, and the glorious one world government took full control. Migration and movement became very tightly controlled. Only those with a high enough social credit score were allowed to move or travel. This was profitable for many, more for some than others.

History doesn't repeat itself, but it often rhymes.

One addition. Migration will be used in the glorious one world order as a punishment, similar to how it is used to today. Any village, town, region, city or general area that is seen as a problem for TPTB will be flooded with undesirable migrants. Whether simple poor people with a different culture, or criminals or mental patients, this punishment will continue.

Prisons and mental hospitals are expensive to maintain, and emptying them to punish defiant populations kills two birds with one stone. Follow the money.

[PAF]

One addition. Migration will be used in the glorious one world order as a punishment, similar to how it is used to today. Any village, town, region, city or general area that is seen as a problem for TPTB will be flooded with undesirable migrants. Whether simple poor people with a different culture, or criminals or mental patients, this punishment will continue.

Prisons and mental hospitals are expensive to maintain, and emptying them to punish defiant populations kills two birds with one stone. Follow the money.

Yes, of course. But Trump's plan to build up Security Apparatus for his Contractor Friends won't do a thing to solve the problem, but only make it worse for us in spending on that revolving door. Only defunding those org's will do the trick, while at the same time preserving our Bill of Rights.

What's so hard to understand?

[Brian4Liberty]

Gee. If there was only a presidential candidate who would make the money issue front and center of the immigration debate:



...

Great interview from Ron, as usual. Watters was even pretty good, until he went a little neocon with the "isolationist" canard.

[jmdrake]

Yes, of course. But Trump's plan to build up Security Apparatus for his Contractor Friends won't do a thing to solve the problem, but only make it worse for us in spending on that revolving door. Only defunding those org's will do the trick, while at the same time preserving our Bill of Rights.

What's so hard to understand?

True. Not just Trump but Biden as well. Both sides support the same "solution" and claim the other side is just playing politics. Nobody talks about the money.

https://truthout.org/articles/biden-...-virtual-wall/

President Joe Biden signed a number of immigration-related executive actions Tuesday continuing his reversals of former President Donald Trump’s harsh policies toward undocumented immigrants, asylum seekers, and refugees as part the new administration’s effort to pursue a more humanitarian approach to immigration and border enforcement.

However, at least one of Biden’s proposals suggests that while he rejects Trump’s “big, beautiful wall” approach, he favors a different kind of “wall”: a ramping up of technology-driven surveillance at the border.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/immig...8bd_story.html

Trump administration hires tech firm to build a virtual border wall, an idea Democrats have praised

[Brian4Liberty]

I followed the money. Vance, not me, is the one who called for a $20 "minimum wage", so why get upset at me?

The Gradual Leftward Shift in US Politics and Economy

Yes, of course. But Trump's plan to build up Security Apparatus for his Contractor Friends won't do a thing to solve the problem, but only make it worse for us in spending on that revolving door. Only defunding those org's will do the trick, while at the same time preserving our Bill of Rights.

What's so hard to understand?

Those would be questions for Trump/Vance or their surrogates.

[PAF]

Those would be questions for Trump/Vance or their surrogates.

They would just spin it using "republican jargon" so I wouldn't expect much of an answer lol.

[Brian4Liberty]

True. Not just Trump but Biden as well. Both sides support the same "solution" and claim the other side is just playing politics. Nobody talks about the money.

https://truthout.org/articles/biden-...-virtual-wall/

President Joe Biden signed a number of immigration-related executive actions Tuesday continuing his reversals of former President Donald Trump’s harsh policies toward undocumented immigrants, asylum seekers, and refugees as part the new administration’s effort to pursue a more humanitarian approach to immigration and border enforcement.

However, at least one of Biden’s proposals suggests that while he rejects Trump’s “big, beautiful wall” approach, he favors a different kind of “wall”: a ramping up of technology-driven surveillance at the border.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/immig...8bd_story.html

Trump administration hires tech firm to build a virtual border wall, an idea Democrats have praised

This is analogous to the crime problem. Tired of break-ins and burglaries? Get a better front door and alarm system.

Sorry government, that is not the answer or the problem. The problem is criminals and criminals activity. Criminal mentality which is fostered and encouraged, lack of enforcement of laws, lack of prosecution, lack of consequences. The problem is a corrupt state.

[PAF]

This is analogous to the crime problem. Tired of break-ins and burglaries? Get a better front door and alarm system.

Sorry government, that is not the answer or the problem. The problem is criminals and criminals activity. Criminal mentality which is fostered and encouraged, lack of enforcement of laws, lack of prosecution, lack of consequences. The problem is a corrupt state.

There is huge, big money in that. Create the problem by using tax dollars to being them here, grow government by hiring DHS and other which overwhelm the courts, then build more courts and walls, eVerify and virtual apparatus/spy cameras on every block in order to line the pockets of the Contractors. Rinse and repeat.

If government didn't create the problem, the problem wouldn't exist, and people would come and go naturally without much of an issue. For those who break the law [crime against person/property], there are already laws on the books and they should get their day in court according to the Bill of Rights.

[Brian4Liberty]

There is huge, big money in that. Create the problem by using tax dollars to being them here, grow government by hiring DHS and other which overwhelm the courts, then build more courts and walls, eVerify and virtual apparatus/spy cameras on every block in order to line the pockets of the Contractors. Rinse and repeat.

If government didn't create the problem, the problem wouldn't exist, and people would come and go naturally without much of an issue. For those who break the law [crime against person/property], there are already laws on the books and they should get their day in court according to the Bill of Rights.

Still using the burglary analogy, what you are proposing is that if there was no government, there would be no burglaries.

[acptulsa]

Still using the burglary analogy, what you are proposing is that if there was no government, there would be no burglaries.

He wasn't using an analogy. He was just giving one example of how existing laws could deal with the problems some immigrants cause.

At the very least you must admit that the scam behind the deliberate importation of people directly from foreign prisons is benefitting government, as well as getting it kickbacks from industries that want to drive down wages.

[PAF]

Still using the burglary analogy, what you are proposing is that if there was no government, there would be no burglaries.

lol... well, you know my position on government [the state].

But, taking into account "reality", since government [the state] does exist, I would hope that more people who pay taxes would wake up to the fact that government/private contractors are the one who create the very [overwhelming immigration] problem, and in an effort to feed their families and put more of their own money back into their pockets, they would demand a stop to the "revolving door". But, I guess expecting that isn't a reality either. For most Americans, it's easier to blame the "other side" [even though both sides and contractors are complicit], pay more in taxes and forfeit their Bill of Rights in favor of a police-state. It's human nature among the stoopid, I guess.

[PAF]

He wasn't using an analogy. He was just giving one example of how existing laws could deal with the problems some immigrants cause.

At the very least you must admit that the scam behind the deliberate importation of people directly from foreign prisons is benefitting government, as well as getting it kickbacks from industries that want to drive down wages.

Yep.

[jmdrake]

This is analogous to the crime problem. Tired of break-ins and burglaries? Get a better front door and alarm system.

Sorry government, that is not the answer or the problem. The problem is criminals and criminals activity. Criminal mentality which is fostered and encouraged, lack of enforcement of laws, lack of prosecution, lack of consequences. The problem is a corrupt state.

So.....if you're the one selling meth to my neighborhood and your only response is to go into the business of selling alarms and locks as opposed to, I don't know stop selling meth I should be thankful to you for protecting me from the methheads you created instead of first running you out of town?

Here's something nobody is considering. Haiti was one of the countries that rejected COVID vaccines and yet had one of the lowest COVID death rates in the world. Yet, less than a year later, the president of Haiti was assassinated by a gorup of assassins that included a U.S. DEA informatant. They got the presidential guard to stand down by announcing themselves as DEA. Why is the U.S. DEA operating outside the United States anyway? And now the gangs terrorizing neighborhoods in Haiti are being armed with M16s, not AR15, but military M16s from the U.S. Israel can figure out how to bomb Hezbollah through pagers but the U.S. can't figure out who's arming people too poor to feed themselvers?

[jmdrake]

Still using the burglary analogy, what you are proposing is that if there was no government, there would be no burglaries.

Why use such a poor analogy? This isn't a situation where there "is no government." This is a situation where the government created the problem and now the government solution 1) costs more money and 2) restricts your freedom. Meanwhile neither of the 4 main people running for the positions of president and vice president have said a damn thing about the problem they helped create with their welfare state / warfare state.

[Brian4Liberty]

So.....if you're the one selling meth to my neighborhood and your only response is to go into the business of selling alarms and locks as opposed to, I don't know stop selling meth I should be thankful to you for protecting me from the methheads you created instead of first running you out of town?
...

I was agreeing with you.

Government is allowing, encouraging and funding the immigration. The border wall solution is ridiculous, just the same as buying a better lock when the govt is allowing burglary to flourish.

[jmdrake]

I was agreeing with you.

Government is allowing, encouraging and funding the immigration. The border wall solution is ridiculous, just the same as buying a better lock when the govt is allowing burglary to flourish.

Ah. My bad. Good analogy!