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Thread: Right-Wing Obtuseness on Immigration

  1. #1

    Right-Wing Obtuseness on Immigration


    by Jacob G. Hornberger
    September 11, 2024



    A columnist for the Washington Post named Jim Geraghty recently chided me in his column for wanting to “abolish the Border Patrol and ICE and all controls on the free movements of people across borders.” With sarcasm dripping from his keyboard, Geraghty concluded, “I suppose that by declaring it to be legal for everyone to cross the border, you have technically solved the problem of illegal immigration. Yeah, that’s the way to handle the 2 million or so illegal border crossings each year over the past three years.”

    While one might be tempted to think that Geraghty is a left-winger given that he writes for the Washington Post, such is actually not the case. He is actually a right-winger. In fact, in addition to his position at the Post, which apparently is trying to appear “fair and balanced,” Geraghty serves as a “senior political correspondent” for National Review, one of the nation’s oldest right-wing publications.

    Given the fact that he is an ardent and devoted right-winger, it is, therefore, not surprising that Geraghty would oppose the concept of open borders. Like all other right-wingers, he is an ardent champion for America’s century-old system of immigration controls.

    Geraghty’s criticism gives us an opportunity to examine the concept of open borders and the immigration-control system that right-wingers have helped foist upon our nation and have long supported.

    Before proceeding, it is worth mentioning that left-wingers are also ardent supporters of America’s system of immigration controls. That’s an important point because right-wingers often criticize left-wingers for their supposed support of “open borders,” a critique that is seriously misguided. For the past 100 years, both right-wingers and left-wingers have supported the concept of government-controlled borders. They might differ on the manner in which their system is enforced, but they are on the same page with respect to the system itself.

    Let’s begin with Geraghty’s observation that open borders would “technically solve the problem of illegal immigration.” While he’s being sarcastic, he actually is correct. With open borders, there is no such concept as an illegal human being, as there is with a system of government-controlled borders. Under open borders, everyone is free to cross borders without being stopped or detained. That’s because under the law, no one would be entering the country illegally. Thus, no more illegal immigrants.

    Consider the domestic United States, which has open borders between the states. Suppose it had been otherwise. Suppose that the Constitution had authorized each state to impose its own immigration controls. No one from outside the state could enter the state without official permission.

    In that case, you would have an illegal immigration problem domestically because there would be people entering states without official permission. Such being the case, if I proposed the system of open borders we have today inside the United States, people like Geraghty would be sarcastically saying, “I guess Jacob is saying that the solution to our domestic illegal immigration crisis is simply to legalize them all by opening all state borders.” And he would be right — that is precisely what I would be saying.


    Free enterprise and socialism

    Right-wingers have long been ostensible proponents of free markets and free enterprise. In fact, one of the favorite mantras of right-wingers has long been “free enterprise, private property, and limited government.” Stretching all the way back to at least the 1950s, when National Review was founded by longtime right-winger and former CIA operative William F. Buckley, Jr., the mantra has been regularly employed in right-wing speeches, articles, books, magazines, and websites. I wouldn’t at all be surprised if it appears today on the masthead or the biographical sketch of National Review.

    At the same time, right-wingers have long decried socialism. In fact, their screeds against socialism, in which they would quote free-market economists like Milton Friedman and Friedrich Hayek, formed a central part of what became known as the “anti-communist crusade” that right-wingers waged throughout the Cold War. That was the period of time when right-wingers were convinced that the Russians, Chinese, Cubans, North Vietnamese, North Koreans, and other Reds were coming to get us. It was also the time when right-wingers, led by Senator Joseph McCarthy, were ferreting out communists in all parts of American society, including the military, and exhorting Americans to even look under their beds for commies who might be hiding there.

    An irony, however, of this pro-free-enterprise, anti-socialism mentality is that America’s system of immigration controls is based on the core socialist system of central planning. Government officials plan, in a top-down, command-and-control manner, the movements of millions of people in one of the most complex labor markets in history. This central planning involves determining the overall number of immigrants who will be permitted to enter the United States, the number allocated to each country, and the credentials necessary for entry. One thing is for sure — the central planners do not give priority to the poor, tired, huddled masses yearning to breathe free or to the wretched refuse of other nations’ teeming shores.

    Why is this ironic? Recall that favorite right-wing mantra — “free enterprise, private property, and limited government.” And recall the antisocialist sentiments that right-wingers love to express. And yet here they are — ardent proponents of a system based on the core socialist principle of central planning that violates the principles of free enterprise, private property, and limited government.


    Planned chaos versus a free market

    The libertarian economist Ludwig von Mises observed that the result of central planning is “planned chaos.” And that’s precisely what we have had on the border for around 100 years, along with perpetual crisis, death, suffering, kidnappings, rapes, detention centers, criminal prosecutions, penitentiaries, deportations, raids, a Berlin Wall that was built using the eminent domain stealing of people’s property, concertina wire to cut people up, and a massive immigration police state that includes highway checkpoints, warrantless searches of property within 100 miles of America’s borders, and the criminalization of hiring, transporting, harboring, or caring for anyone who is here illegally.

    All that is what right-wingers call America’s system of “free enterprise, private property, and limited government.” That’s why one often finds right-wingers singing to themselves, “Well, I’m proud to be an American, where at least I know I’m free.” As an aside, it’s worth pointing out that immigration controls are not the only socialist program that right-wingers have come to support. There are also such programs as Social Security, Medicare, and public schooling. In fact, just last February, Geraghty wrote an article in National Review lamenting increases in Social Security payments but of course not questioning the existence of this socialist program itself. In fact, in the previous month, National Review published an article detailing a new right-wing plan to save both Social Security and Medicare.

    Compare central planning with the virtues of a free market. In a free market, economic activity is free of government control, regulation, and direction. The free market is what Hayek called “the spontaneous order.” It is a system in which everyone plans his own economic activities and coordinates his efforts with others. The means of communication in a free market is a sophisticated phenomenon called the “price system.”

    For example, let’s assume that a farmer in Oregon desperately needs workers to harvest his crops. If he doesn’t get them right away, his crops will rot in the fields. Under a system of central planning, government officials would have already planned for the number of immigrants needed during that particular year. The plan would not have taken into consideration that farmer’s immediate needs. The farmer would lose his crop, just as many farmers have actually lost their crops owing to a shortage of farm workers.

    Under a free-market, spontaneous-order system, all that the farmer has to do is announce that he is offering to pay, say, $50 an hour, plus transportation, room, and board. Immediately, a Mexican working on the farm calls his cousins in Mexico, who spreads the word. The next day, dozens of Mexicans are on the plane headed to Oregon. They make some good, quick money, and the farmer’s crop is saved. That’s how a genuine free-enterprise system works.


    Immigration and citizenship

    There is something else important to note. Under an open-border system, no one has to change his citizenship. The Mexican workers who head to Oregon to harvest that farmer’s crops remain Mexican citizens. They are simply foreign citizens living and working in the United States, much like American citizens who work in, say, France. I have a friend who is Japanese. She has lived here in the United States for some 40 years. She is still a Japanese citizen. Who cares?

    And that’s one of the things to remember about open borders. Everyone is now dealing with everyone else as simply a human being. That is, there is no distinction between a legal person and an illegal person. Think about the situation today. There are an estimated 10-12 million people here illegally. Yet, how many Americans ask someone who speaks with an accent to produce his citizenship or immigration papers? I don’t know of anyone who does that. I’m willing to bet that right-wing immigration-control advocate Jim Geraghty doesn’t even do that. Instead, everyone, except ICE and the Border Patrol, treats everyone else as just regular human beings, not legal ones and illegal ones.


    The welfare state and liberty

    What about the old right-wing canard that you can’t have open borders with a welfare state? It’s wrongheaded. Of course, you can have both. Sure, it might mean the payment of higher taxes, but is that any reason to abandon one’s principles and, in the process, inflict harm on all the people who are not coming to get on welfare? Moreover, keep in mind that both right-wingers and left-wingers favor a welfare state. So they’re saying that advocates of liberty should join them in their support of immigration socialism until the right-wing, left-wing welfare state is dismantled, which might be never.

    Instead of destroying the freedom that comes with open borders, how about devoting our efforts to dismantling the right-wing, left-wing welfare state? In the meantime, if right-wingers and left-wingers choose to give welfare to foreigners, let’s not be duped into joining them in their wrongdoing. Let’s just continue trying to end their wrongdoing.

    And make no mistake about it: open borders is not just about bringing an end to death, suffering, rapes, kidnappings, deportations, a Berlin Wall, and a massive police state. Most important, open borders is about liberty. As Thomas Jefferson pointed out in the Declaration of Independence, everyone — not just Americans — has been endowed by nature and God with such fundamental rights as life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. That’s precisely what most people are doing when they cross political borders — they are trying to sustain their life with labor, entering into mutually agreeable arrangements with others, and pursuing happiness in their own way.

    There is another factor to consider: People who are welfare-oriented are not the type of people who are going to pick up stakes and leave home, family, friends, language, and culture to go to a country where they are going to get insulted, abused, and humiliated, especially if welfare payments are not immediately available. And even if some of the welfare-oriented types do decide to come, the economic prosperity produced by the 99 percent who are trying to get rich will undoubtedly produce the tax revenues to sustain the 1 percent who are coming to get on welfare.


    What if everyone comes?

    What if the whole world were to come here? Jackson Hole, Wyoming, is one of the most beautiful places in the United States. Why doesn’t every American move to Jackson Hole? Should we enact a law prohibiting every American from moving to Jackson Hole? What about New York City. There are millions of Americans who consider it a wonderful place to live. What if every American decided tomorrow to suddenly move to New York City? Surely, we should have a law that prevents that possibility, right? For many years, people have been fleeing California and flooding into Austin, Texas. And then suddenly the flow has receded. The same for people moving from the Northeast to Florida — many of them stopped and settled in states along the way.

    Why don’t we worry about all this? Because of the economic principle of subjective value and the economic law of supply and demand. The fact is that many people like living wherever they are. For people who wish to move, they have to factor in expense — that is, the cost of moving and living in a particular area. The fact is that Jackson Hole is a very expensive place to live. Same for New York City. As people flooded into Austin and Florida, prices started soaring, causing others to look elsewhere. The market system and the price system work for everyone, including foreigners looking to move to the United States. If it gets too expensive, people look elsewhere.


    Forfeiting rights

    There is another aspect of immigration controls that deserves mention. When Americans travel outside the country, they forfeit their rights to privacy when returning to their own country. When they land back in the United States, they are subject to full searches of their persons and their belongings. In fact, if immigration officials demand that they disrobe and order them to bend over for a body-cavity search, Americans must comply. Immigration officials also wield the power to search laptops and cellphones and to order Americans to turn over their passwords on pain of being incarcerated and fined if they refuse to do so. Why should anyone — American or otherwise — forfeit his natural, God-given rights simply because he has peacefully crossed a political line?


    A national home versus private property

    Right-wingers often claim that America is a national home and that the federal government can legitimately control who comes into the front door. They compare the situation to a private homeowner, who has the authority to discriminate with respect to who enters his house. The problem with this mindset is that it’s thinking of North Korea, where the state owns everything. In a totally socialist society, it’s easy for people to think of their country as a “national home,” one in which the government owns and controls the front door.

    America, however, is founded on the principle of private property. In a private-property society, you have the right to decide who enters your home. If you don’t like foreigners, you can keep them out. But what you can’t do is prevent me from inviting into my home whoever I want. If I want to invite foreigners into my home (or my business), neither you nor anyone else, including the government, has the legitimate authority to interfere with my decisions.


    Hope and responsibility

    One of the things about right-wingers like Geraghty —and, for that matter, left-wingers like Alexandria Ocasio Cortez and Bernie Sanders — is that they never lose hope that someone will finally — finally! — come up with a reform that will make socialism work. That’s undoubtedly Geraghty’s mindset with respect to immigration, just as it undoubtedly is with Social Security, Medicare, public schooling, and other socialist programs. Notwithstanding the fact that socialist central planning has clearly failed to prevent illegal entry into the United States for almost 100 years, Geraghty still thinks that it’s possible to make his immigration-control system succeed. When it comes to socialism and the right-wing, hope springs eternal.

    Meanwhile, if one were to ask Geraghty and other right-wingers whether they accept personal responsibility for the death, suffering, mayhem, and destruction of liberty and privacy that their socialist immigration-control system has produced, they would answer in the same way that left-wingers answer when asked the same question regarding the consequences of the welfare state: “Oh, no! Please judge us not by the consequences of our socialist programs but rather by our good intentions.”


    Only one solution

    I’ve said it for more than 30 years, but it bears repeating: There is one — and only one — solution to America’s century-old right-wing, left-wing immigration morass: Abolish the Border Patrol and ICE and all controls on the free movements of people across borders.



    https://www.fff.org/explore-freedom/...n-immigration/

    ____________

    Mises Institute

    An Agorist Primer ~ Samuel Edward Konkin III (free PDF download)

    The End of All Evil ~ Jeremy Locke (free PDF download)



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  3. #2
    TL;DR

    But I know where Jacob stands. The error in his logic, though, is that he's talking about a "natural" movement of people - not an "artificial" one.

    If this was a perfectly natural movement, immigration wouldn't be that big of an issue. Yeah, you'd have the xenophobes freaking out, but they'd be a small minority - most of us wouldn't care.

    But that's not what we have. We have government forces importing millions of people, using our wealth, to increase their political and financial power over us. So yeah, I can listen to the open borders argument once all artificial incentives are removed.
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire

  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    TL;DR

    But I know where Jacob stands. The error in his logic, though, is that he's talking about a "natural" movement of people - not an "artificial" one.

    If this was a perfectly natural movement, immigration wouldn't be that big of an issue. Yeah, you'd have the xenophobes freaking out, but they'd be a small minority - most of us wouldn't care.

    But that's not what we have. We have government forces importing millions of people, using our wealth, to increase their political and financial power over us. So yeah, I can listen to the open borders argument once all artificial incentives are removed.

    That is covered in the article. Perhaps you should have read it.

    Oh, and there is no error in his logic. Again, if you would have read it.
    ____________

    Mises Institute

    An Agorist Primer ~ Samuel Edward Konkin III (free PDF download)

    The End of All Evil ~ Jeremy Locke (free PDF download)

  5. #4
    I'm all for abolishing the border patrol.

    They are an infamously corrupt and ineffective organization.

    A robust razorwire fence or two and a really greasy pole to prevent these people from receiving any benefits, documents, and meaningful employment would do the trick and most would self-deport.

    Plus, a program change from Catch-and-Release to Catch-and-Beat for repeat offenders would help.

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    That is covered in the article. Perhaps you should have read it.

    Oh, and there is no error in his logic. Again, if you would have read it.
    Oh FFS, I read his justification, but it doesn't work. In fact, it's kinda retarded.

    The welfare state and liberty

    What about the old right-wing canard that you can’t have open borders with a welfare state? It’s wrongheaded. Of course, you can have both. Sure, it might mean the payment of higher taxes, but is that any reason to abandon one’s principles and, in the process, inflict harm on all the people who are not coming to get on welfare? Moreover, keep in mind that both right-wingers and left-wingers favor a welfare state. So they’re saying that advocates of liberty should join them in their support of immigration socialism until the right-wing, left-wing welfare state is dismantled, which might be never.

    Instead of destroying the freedom that comes with open borders, how about devoting our efforts to dismantling the right-wing, left-wing welfare state? In the meantime, if right-wingers and left-wingers choose to give welfare to foreigners, let’s not be duped into joining them in their wrongdoing. Let’s just continue trying to end their wrongdoing.

    And make no mistake about it: open borders is not just about bringing an end to death, suffering, rapes, kidnappings, deportations, a Berlin Wall, and a massive police state. Most important, open borders is about liberty. As Thomas Jefferson pointed out in the Declaration of Independence, everyone — not just Americans — has been endowed by nature and God with such fundamental rights as life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. That’s precisely what most people are doing when they cross political borders — they are trying to sustain their life with labor, entering into mutually agreeable arrangements with others, and pursuing happiness in their own way.

    There is another factor to consider: People who are welfare-oriented are not the type of people who are going to pick up stakes and leave home, family, friends, language, and culture to go to a country where they are going to get insulted, abused, and humiliated, especially if welfare payments are not immediately available. And even if some of the welfare-oriented types do decide to come, the economic prosperity produced by the 99 percent who are trying to get rich will undoubtedly produce the tax revenues to sustain the 1 percent who are coming to get on welfare.
    He starts with the assumption that 99 percent are coming here naturally. Come on, dude - do you really believe that?!! He's talking about the welfare state, but that's not the only artificial lure. Our government is setting these people up in nice hotels, giving them phones, stipends, vouchers, and dropping them off in favored political districts. There are agencies set up to profit off of these people and turn them into indentured servants. Those agencies have the incentive to lure more people away from their homelands with promises of luxuries. Without those things, these people could be a net-benefit to our society - but with them, they are taking taxpayer wealth and funneling some of it back in. Ending the border enforcement without FIRST ending the subsidies is insanity!
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    Oh FFS, I read his justification, but it doesn't work. In fact, it's kinda retarded.
    The title: "Right-Wing Obtuseness on Immigration" fits to the tee.


    He starts with the assumption that 99 percent are coming here naturally. Come on, dude - do you really believe that?!! He's talking about the welfare state, but that's not the only artificial lure. Our government is setting these people up in nice hotels, giving them phones, stipends, vouchers, and dropping them off in favored political districts. There are agencies set up to profit off of these people and turn them into indentured servants. Those agencies have the incentive to lure more people away from their homelands with promises of luxuries. Without those things, these people could be a net-benefit to our society - but with them, they are taking taxpayer wealth and funneling some of it back in. Ending the border enforcement without FIRST ending the subsidies is insanity!

    So your final consensus is that because tax-payer money assists in bringing them here, as well as companies who need workers, and the fact that that will never change, we should embrace enslaving ourselves and promote the police-state that is being welcomed by the Right-Wing Obtuseness on Immigration.


    Got it

    ____________

    Mises Institute

    An Agorist Primer ~ Samuel Edward Konkin III (free PDF download)

    The End of All Evil ~ Jeremy Locke (free PDF download)

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    TL;DR

    But I know where Jacob stands. The error in his logic, though, is that he's talking about a "natural" movement of people - not an "artificial" one.

    If this was a perfectly natural movement, immigration wouldn't be that big of an issue. Yeah, you'd have the xenophobes freaking out, but they'd be a small minority - most of us wouldn't care.

    But that's not what we have. We have government forces importing millions of people, using our wealth, to increase their political and financial power over us. So yeah, I can listen to the open borders argument once all artificial incentives are removed.
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    That is covered in the article. Perhaps you should have read it.

    Oh, and there is no error in his logic. Again, if you would have read it.
    So....I read the whole thing. It's got headers so its easy to find the part talking about the welfare state. Here it is:


    The welfare state and liberty

    What about the old right-wing canard that you can’t have open borders with a welfare state? It’s wrongheaded. Of course, you can have both. Sure, it might mean the payment of higher taxes, but is that any reason to abandon one’s principles and, in the process, inflict harm on all the people who are not coming to get on welfare? Moreover, keep in mind that both right-wingers and left-wingers favor a welfare state. So they’re saying that advocates of liberty should join them in their support of immigration socialism until the right-wing, left-wing welfare state is dismantled, which might be never.

    Instead of destroying the freedom that comes with open borders, how about devoting our efforts to dismantling the right-wing, left-wing welfare state? In the meantime, if right-wingers and left-wingers choose to give welfare to foreigners, let’s not be duped into joining them in their wrongdoing. Let’s just continue trying to end their wrongdoing.

    And make no mistake about it: open borders is not just about bringing an end to death, suffering, rapes, kidnappings, deportations, a Berlin Wall, and a massive police state. Most important, open borders is about liberty. As Thomas Jefferson pointed out in the Declaration of Independence, everyone — not just Americans — has been endowed by nature and God with such fundamental rights as life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. That’s precisely what most people are doing when they cross political borders — they are trying to sustain their life with labor, entering into mutually agreeable arrangements with others, and pursuing happiness in their own way.

    There is another factor to consider: People who are welfare-oriented are not the type of people who are going to pick up stakes and leave home, family, friends, language, and culture to go to a country where they are going to get insulted, abused, and humiliated, especially if welfare payments are not immediately available. And even if some of the welfare-oriented types do decide to come, the economic prosperity produced by the 99 percent who are trying to get rich will undoubtedly produce the tax revenues to sustain the 1 percent who are coming to get on welfare.

    In on of the videos posted in the "cat eating" thread there's more than one white Trump supporting American who's main complaint is that the Hatians are getting more foodstamps then they are or than someone they know is getting. Case in point at 19 minutes in:



    Supposedly Haitians are getting thousands or tens of thousands on their EBT card where as the Trump supporting white (and black I'm sure too) people are only getting $400. Why aren't Trump and Vance highlighting that? Could it be that nobody wants the secret out that everybody is addicted to the welfare state? That said, if this is true, it's kind of messed up that people are getting subsided by the government to work for less than native born Americans are willing to work at. This is what people should be investigating. But instead, folks are trying to prove the cat story...because....reasons.
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    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    So....I read the whole thing. It's got headers so its easy to find the part talking about the welfare state. Here it is:


    The welfare state and liberty

    What about the old right-wing canard that you can’t have open borders with a welfare state? It’s wrongheaded. Of course, you can have both. Sure, it might mean the payment of higher taxes, but is that any reason to abandon one’s principles and, in the process, inflict harm on all the people who are not coming to get on welfare? Moreover, keep in mind that both right-wingers and left-wingers favor a welfare state. So they’re saying that advocates of liberty should join them in their support of immigration socialism until the right-wing, left-wing welfare state is dismantled, which might be never.

    Instead of destroying the freedom that comes with open borders, how about devoting our efforts to dismantling the right-wing, left-wing welfare state? In the meantime, if right-wingers and left-wingers choose to give welfare to foreigners, let’s not be duped into joining them in their wrongdoing. Let’s just continue trying to end their wrongdoing.

    And make no mistake about it: open borders is not just about bringing an end to death, suffering, rapes, kidnappings, deportations, a Berlin Wall, and a massive police state. Most important, open borders is about liberty. As Thomas Jefferson pointed out in the Declaration of Independence, everyone — not just Americans — has been endowed by nature and God with such fundamental rights as life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. That’s precisely what most people are doing when they cross political borders — they are trying to sustain their life with labor, entering into mutually agreeable arrangements with others, and pursuing happiness in their own way.

    There is another factor to consider: People who are welfare-oriented are not the type of people who are going to pick up stakes and leave home, family, friends, language, and culture to go to a country where they are going to get insulted, abused, and humiliated, especially if welfare payments are not immediately available. And even if some of the welfare-oriented types do decide to come, the economic prosperity produced by the 99 percent who are trying to get rich will undoubtedly produce the tax revenues to sustain the 1 percent who are coming to get on welfare.

    In on of the videos posted in the "cat eating" thread there's more than one white Trump supporting American who's main complaint is that the Hatians are getting more foodstamps then they are or than someone they know is getting. Case in point at 19 minutes in:



    Supposedly Haitians are getting thousands or tens of thousands on their EBT card where as the Trump supporting white (and black I'm sure too) people are only getting $400. Why aren't Trump and Vance highlighting that? Could it be that nobody wants the secret out that everybody is addicted to the welfare state? That said, if this is true, it's kind of messed up that people are getting subsided by the government to work for less than native born Americans are willing to work at. This is what people should be investigating. But instead, folks are trying to prove the cat story...because....reasons.

    Bingo. Which can be easily solved if/when the people have had enough and no longer want to support paying taxes for such things. Meantime, I am not willing to sacrifice or forfeit my liberty/freedom if/when/until that happens, if it ever or never does, whichever the case may be.
    ____________

    Mises Institute

    An Agorist Primer ~ Samuel Edward Konkin III (free PDF download)

    The End of All Evil ~ Jeremy Locke (free PDF download)



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    Oh FFS, I read his justification, but it doesn't work. In fact, it's kinda retarded.



    He starts with the assumption that 99 percent are coming here naturally. Come on, dude - do you really believe that?!! He's talking about the welfare state, but that's not the only artificial lure. Our government is setting these people up in nice hotels, giving them phones, stipends, vouchers, and dropping them off in favored political districts. There are agencies set up to profit off of these people and turn them into indentured servants. Those agencies have the incentive to lure more people away from their homelands with promises of luxuries. Without those things, these people could be a net-benefit to our society - but with them, they are taking taxpayer wealth and funneling some of it back in. Ending the border enforcement without FIRST ending the subsidies is insanity!
    As @Anti Federalist pointed out, during the Trump years the number of immigrants from Ukraine were less than 10,000. Now it's over 217,000. The difference is not the amount of welfare. The difference is (drumroll please) U.S. foreign policy which destabilized their country! If the welfare state was reduced to nothing, people would still be streaming into the U.S. because of how the U.S. has for over 100 years destablizied Haiti, for the past few decades destablized Venezuela, and for the past few years destablized Ukraine. So until we stop screwing over other people countries it's not going to slow the mass migration numbers. That said, there SHOULD be limits on welfare especially for migrants and people SHOULD investigate if the stories are true. From what I can find so far refugees are granted cash assistance both that the federal and the state level, but I can't find how anyone would end up with $30,000 on an EBT card.

    https://www.acf.hhs.gov/sites/defaul...fact_sheet.pdf

    https://www.dshs.wa.gov/esa/communit...0receive%20RCA.

    So...why aren't Trump and J.D. Vance talking about ^that? Why isn't anybody talking about that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    But how will all of these illegally imported voters be able to survive? Only $15,000 really doesn't go that far these days, considering the massive inflation we have. A reasonable UBI should be at least $100k per year.

    ^This is what somebody should be talking about.
    Last edited by jmdrake; 09-19-2024 at 09:41 AM.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  12. #10
    Going down the EBT high balance rabbit hole I found this story that doesn't seem to be related to immigraiton:



    https://web.archive.org/web/20210125...num-ebt-cards/

    Next scandal: Platinum EBT cards

    RECORDS REQUEST: A receipt showing a hefty EBT card balance, right, has sparked a records request from the state. Above is the keeper of public records in the state, Secretary of State William Galvin.

    By Howie Carr | howard.carr@medianewsgroup.com | Boston Herald
    PUBLISHED: May 30, 2013 at 12:00 a.m. | UPDATED: November 17, 2018 at 12:00 a.m.
    The next welfare scandal is going to be the huge balances on some of these EBT cards.

    Wait until the Department of Terrorist Assistance (DTA) finally coughs up how much money is on these cards. And yes, Gov. Deval Patrick, this is another one of those “anecdotes.”

    Last January a radio listener from Pittsfield sent me a receipt from a local convenience store. Some loafer had run up a tab of $3.28, so he whipped out an EBT card to pay for it. After paying his three bucks, he had $7,066.58 left on the card.

    I kid you not. Over seven grand on an EBT card.

    There aren’t too many ways to run up seven grand plus on your EBT card. Of course it’s easy if you never use the card while every month you’re getting a new direct deposit of taxpayer cash.

    But the only ways not to spend down the balance are because 1) you don’t need an EBT card at all or 2) you have more than one EBT card.


    It’s got to be one or the other, right?

    A month or so after getting the receipt, I gave it to state Rep. Shauna O’Connell (R-Taunton). She’s served on some of these commissions investigating the fiasco that is Deval Patrick’s DTA, so I figured maybe she could get an answer.

    Related: Senate roll call to reject EBT photo I.D.s

    The Herald, meanwhile, filed a FOIA for the top 100 EBT card balances. The DTA said it would cost $500 to research its records.

    O’Connell asked the DTA for an accounting of the top EBT card balances. This was sometime last winter. When the phone didn’t ring, she knew it was the DTA.

    The keeper of public records in the commonwealth is the secretary of state, Bill Galvin, a Democrat. So O’Connell called Galvin’s office and asked them to intervene. But the DTA apparently doesn’t answer to anyone, Democrat or Republican.

    “They don’t discriminate on stonewalling,” said O’Connell. “That’s one thing you have to give them.”

    At the end of Auditor Suzanne Bump’s scorching report on EBT fraud this week, she asked the DTA for an accounting of last year’s “missing” 47,000 recipients — a scandal that came to light after a Herald front-page story.

    The DTA had conducted what amounted to a Democrat voter-registration drive among layabouts, by sending out a first-class mailing to all 480,000 of the state’s EBT card holders.

    Just under 10 percent of the letters came back as undeliverable. Either because 1) they no longer lived at their previous addresses or 2) they never existed to begin with, except for the purposes of committing welfare fraud.

    It’s got to be one or the other, right? Deval Patrick dismissed it as mere “leakage.” The DTA told Bump to take a hike.

    The DTA called Secretary Galvin’s office the other day and told them that O’Connell should be hearing something by yesterday. Well, today is Thursday, and guess what?

    When the phone doesn’t ring, Shauna, you’ll know it’s the DTA.
    Last edited by jmdrake; 09-19-2024 at 09:50 AM.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    Could it be that nobody wants the secret out that everybody is addicted to the welfare state?
    Exactly.

    Inflation reduces the value of earnings faster than anyone can get raises. So workers have to get welfare now, whereas for most of my life I was able to be self-sufficient from wages. When I was a teen, a job (any job) precluded you from getting welfare, food stamps, any of it. Nobody thought anything more than a part time job was in any way less desirable than welfare. This process has been underway for decades. It leads to government having iron control over whether we eat or not. They're bringing it to a head.

    So how do they...?

    Distract us from the devaluation problem.

    Keep us vying for jobs that don't support us.

    Make sure when we turn violent, we shoot at someone besides them.
    Last edited by acptulsa; 09-19-2024 at 09:53 AM.

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    [INDENT]
    by Jacob G. Hornberger
    September 11, 2024
    ...
    Like all other right-wingers, he is an ardent champion for America’s century-old system of immigration controls.
    ...
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    TL;DR

    But I know where Jacob stands.
    ...
    Yes, we know where he stands. He is an "ardent" zealot for massive immigration. He is obsessed.
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul

    Proponent of real science.
    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    Yes, we know where he stands. He is an "ardent" zealot for massive immigration. He is obsessed.
    To be clear, I'm a big supporter of natural migration. If people want to move where there is more opportunity to engage in free commerce, then all the best to them! They'll be a net benefit and will enrich us all.

    It's artificial migration that causes us all the issues. And to open the flood gates without addressing the artificiality of it first, is just dumb. It's two completely different topics and we end up talking past each other. You get 2 completely different types of migrants - those that add to your wealth and those that suck it dry. Jacob thinks that only 1% are of the latter, but provides zero evidence to support his conclusion. I think it's WAY higher and is the reason that a whole industry has been established to feed off the government largesse, while putting real people in servitude.
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    Yes, we know where he stands. He is an "ardent" zealot for massive immigration. He is obsessed.
    Like me, I don't think he cares much about where people want to live. He is against the policies and government intervention which ultimately restrict human beings liberties and freedoms.

    But, conversely, I do know where obtuse right-wing people stand, and it has nothing to do with liberty/freedom or defunding those orgs. After all, there's big, big money in police-state apparatus these days.

    But, to each his/her own.
    ____________

    Mises Institute

    An Agorist Primer ~ Samuel Edward Konkin III (free PDF download)

    The End of All Evil ~ Jeremy Locke (free PDF download)

  17. #15
    Thought experiment for you:

    Imagine there was a hidden village of 1000 people who for 1000 years had no contact with the outside world and for 1000 years they lived in total prosperity. They all shared extremely similar values and as such there was virtually no violence, strife, or crime. It wasn't a perfect utopia, but compared to the rest of the world, it was. They had wealth, safety, land, and happiness.

    Then imagine that the magical wall that kept them invisible suddenly came down. They make it an open policy to let anyone cross into their lands. News spreads across the world about this small country with immense wealth and opportunity.

    How do you think this village is gonna fare? Do they 1) prosper further from all the nice immigrants coming in, or 2) get ransacked by Venezuelans and get left for dead in their backyards
    Last edited by TheTexan; 09-19-2024 at 12:10 PM.
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Crenshaw 2024!!!!

    My pronouns are he/him/his

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTexan View Post
    Thought experiment for you:

    Imagine there was a hidden village of 1000 people who for 1000 years had no contact with the outside world and for 1000 years they lived in total prosperity. They all shared extremely similar values and as such there was virtually no violence, strife, or crime. It wasn't a perfect utopia, but compared to the rest of the world, it was. They had wealth, safety, land, and happiness.

    Then imagine that the magical wall that kept them invisible suddenly came down. They make it an open policy to let anyone cross into their lands.

    How do you think this village is gonna fare? Do they 1) prosper further from all the nice immigrants coming in, or 2) get ransacked by Venezuelans and get left for dead in their backyards

    lol that's one Utopia that doesn't exists. That's like me wishing for government to not come to work for the rest of the year lol

    And even if government did not come to work for a year, it would a vast, vast, very vast improvement over what we have now.
    ____________

    Mises Institute

    An Agorist Primer ~ Samuel Edward Konkin III (free PDF download)

    The End of All Evil ~ Jeremy Locke (free PDF download)



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    This is what somebody should be talking about.
    And that's just the welfare... There are also huge government payouts to support this grift. Here's just one recent announcement:

    WASHINGTON – Today, the Department of Homeland Security (DHS), through the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) and U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP), announced $300 million in grants through the Shelter and Services Program (SSP), which was authorized by Congress to support communities that are providing services to migrants. $275 million will be distributed in the first allocation, and the remaining $25 million will be allocated later in the year to accommodate evolving operational requirements. The initial funding will be available to 55 grant recipients for temporary shelter and other eligible costs associated with migrants awaiting the outcome of their immigration proceedings. Additionally, the Department is announcing $340.9 million through the Shelter and Services Program-Competitive grant program to be allocated before the end of this Fiscal Year.

    Today’s announcement responds to feedback from recipients in terms of providing additional flexibilities and an opportunity for new recipients through the competitive program, while continuing to require budget submissions and review prior to releasing funds, which is standard practice at FEMA. It also builds on the support being provided to communities on the border and in the interior. Last year, more than $780 million awarded through SSP and the Emergency Food and Shelter Program – Humanitarian Awards (EFSP-H) funding in Fiscal Year 2023 which went to organizations and cities across the country. DHS also works to streamline and improve access to work permits for eligible noncitizens, including through the announcement last week of a temporary final rule to increase the automatic extension period for certain employment authorization documents to prevent a lapse for work-authorized individuals to be in the workforce, supporting local economies. https://www.dhs.gov/news/2024/04/12/...ng-communities
    If anyone is under the assumption that we're seeing a natural migration of people just yearning to breathe free, a little research should dispel them of this notion. And what's worse is that the beneficiaries of this spending isn't just the migrants, but a whole industry stood up to profit off them and a democratic party that is encouraging it in order to secure power.
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    lol that's one Utopia that doesn't exists. That's like me wishing for government to not come to work for the rest of the year lol

    And even if government did not come to work for a year, it would a vast, vast, very vast improvement over what we have now.
    That utopia did exist back in the 1900's. It was called America. It wasn't a perfect Utopia, but compared to the rest of the world, it was.
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Crenshaw 2024!!!!

    My pronouns are he/him/his

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    And that's just the welfare... There are also huge government payouts to support this grift. Here's just one recent announcement:



    If anyone is under the assumption that we're seeing a natural migration of people just yearning to breathe free, a little research should dispel them of this notion. And what's worse is that the beneficiaries of this spending isn't just the migrants, but a whole industry stood up to profit off them and a democratic party that is encouraging it in order to secure power.

    You're still in that ridiculous left/right paradigm so it's moot to even discuss. Follow the Money, for starters.

    I think it's best that one starts defending/protecting ones own rights before advocating "solutions" that are designed to enslave one [all humans] further.
    ____________

    Mises Institute

    An Agorist Primer ~ Samuel Edward Konkin III (free PDF download)

    The End of All Evil ~ Jeremy Locke (free PDF download)

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTexan View Post
    That utopia did exist back in the 1900's. It was called America. It wasn't a perfect Utopia, but compared to the rest of the world, it was.
    And once government got involved, all bets were off.

    You just proved my and Jacob's point
    ____________

    Mises Institute

    An Agorist Primer ~ Samuel Edward Konkin III (free PDF download)

    The End of All Evil ~ Jeremy Locke (free PDF download)

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    And once government got involved, all bets were off.

    You just proved my and Jacob's point
    If you say so lol
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Crenshaw 2024!!!!

    My pronouns are he/him/his

  25. #22
    I would remind you that America was a nation, long before it was a "government".

    It's when it ceased being a nation, that it started going dramatically downhill.
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Crenshaw 2024!!!!

    My pronouns are he/him/his

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTexan View Post
    I would remind you that America was a nation, long before it was a "government".

    It's when it ceased being a nation, that it started going dramatically downhill.
    You mean before the time when you said:

    "That utopia did exist back in the 1900's. It was called America."


    See how bad government really is? It really is bad for ones health!
    ____________

    Mises Institute

    An Agorist Primer ~ Samuel Edward Konkin III (free PDF download)

    The End of All Evil ~ Jeremy Locke (free PDF download)

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    You mean before the time when you said:

    "That utopia did exist back in the 1900's. It was called America."


    See how bad government really is? It really is bad for ones health!
    A nation can have a government, it's not mutually exclusive. It's when you have a government without a nation, that you run into the serious problems.

    This was still a nation up until about 1960 or so. A flawed nation, in any case, with the major flaw of course being Lincoln's duct tape keeping it together.
    Last edited by TheTexan; 09-19-2024 at 12:33 PM.
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Crenshaw 2024!!!!

    My pronouns are he/him/his



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTexan View Post
    A nation can have a government, it's not mutually exclusive. It's when you have a government without a nation, that you run into the serious problems.

    This was still a nation up until about 1960 or so.

    For starters, the Anti-Federalists were right. Not the one on this board, though, he was the outcast black sheep who sided with the central planners
    ____________

    Mises Institute

    An Agorist Primer ~ Samuel Edward Konkin III (free PDF download)

    The End of All Evil ~ Jeremy Locke (free PDF download)

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    For starters, the Anti-Federalists were right. Not the one on this board, though, he was the outcast black sheep who sided with the central planners
    I don't disagree. If you see my edit I will definitely concede that the union was certainly not perfect. And it would have been better off as smaller nations, as the Anti-Fed's had envisioned.
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Crenshaw 2024!!!!

    My pronouns are he/him/his

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTexan View Post
    I don't disagree. If you see my edit I will definitely concede that the union was certainly not perfect. And it would have been better off as smaller nations, as the Anti-Fed's had envisioned.
    One caveat... you said "up until about 1960 or so". 1913 was pretty significant and got their ball rolling fast.
    ____________

    Mises Institute

    An Agorist Primer ~ Samuel Edward Konkin III (free PDF download)

    The End of All Evil ~ Jeremy Locke (free PDF download)

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    One caveat... you said "up until about 1960 or so". 1913 was pretty significant and got their ball rolling fast.
    Yea I blame that on Lincoln. Most things can be blamed on Lincoln.

    Even with the Fed, it wasn't until the 1960's that the spending permanently started going crazy.

    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Crenshaw 2024!!!!

    My pronouns are he/him/his

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTexan View Post
    Yea I blame that on Lincoln. Most things can be blamed on Lincoln.

    Yep. And with the way things are, the last thing I'm worried about are some poor immigrants getting a job mowing lawns or working a factory that Americans don't want. I'm for self-preservation and each and every one of my rights. Which include staying and living as free as I can, or the option to bolt the f&ck out of here without being civil asset forfeitured.

    Nobody cares about fiscal responsibility anymore with regard to anything/everything under the sun, except for poor immigrant. What's another few billion on top of the debt this nation has and the amount they spend on foreign intervention. It ain't gonna stop.


    The Fed Hits the Panic Button and Slashes the Fed Funds Rate
    ____________

    Mises Institute

    An Agorist Primer ~ Samuel Edward Konkin III (free PDF download)

    The End of All Evil ~ Jeremy Locke (free PDF download)

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTexan View Post
    Yea I blame that on Lincoln. Most things can be blamed on Lincoln.
    That is ironic that you started this part of the discussion by saying America was a nation, long before it was a "government".

    It was Lincoln who made it a nation. Before him, America wasn't even a nation. Notice that the word "nation" never occurs in the US Constitution. And, unless I'm mistaken, I think that it was only around the time of Lincoln that the USA started to be called a nation, at least with much frequency.
    There is nothing to fear from globalism, free trade and a single worldwide currency, but a globalism where free trade is competitively subsidized by each nation, a continuous trade war is dictated by the WTO, and the single currency is pure fiat, fear is justified. That type of globalism is destined to collapse into economic despair, inflationism and protectionism and managed by resurgent militant nationalism.
    Ron Paul
    Congressional Record (March 13, 2001)

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