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Thread: Government, religion, and "secular" vs. "religious"

  1. #31

    Clergy, Public-School Parents Sue to Block Louisiana Law Requiring Public Schools to Display t


    Clergy, Public-School Parents Sue to Block Louisiana Law Requiring Public Schools to Display the Ten Commandments

    June 24, 2024


    BATON ROUGE, La. — A multi-faith group of nine Louisiana families with children in public schools filed suit in federal court today to block H.B. 71, a new state law requiring all public elementary, secondary, and postsecondary schools to display the Ten Commandments in every classroom. The plaintiffs in Roake v. Brumley, including Jewish parents and parents who are pastors and reverends, are represented by the American Civil Liberties Union, the American Civil Liberties Union of Louisiana, Americans United for Separation of Church and State, and the Freedom from Religion Foundation, with Simpson Thacher & Bartlett LLP serving as pro bono counsel.


    In their complaint filed today in the U.S. District Court for the Middle District of Louisiana, the plaintiffs, who are Jewish, Christian, Unitarian Universalist, and non-religious, assert that the newly enacted statute violates longstanding U.S. Supreme Court precedent and the U.S. Constitution’s First Amendment. More than 40 years ago, in Stone v. Graham, the Supreme Court overturned a similar state law, holding that the separation of church and state bars public schools from posting the Ten Commandments in classrooms. No other state requires the Ten Commandments to be displayed in public schools.


    The complaint further alleges that H.B. 71 “substantially interferes with and burdens” parents’ First Amendment right to direct their children’s religious education and upbringing, and that, in approving and mandating the display of a specific version of the Ten Commandments, the law runs afoul of the First Amendment’s prohibition against the government taking sides on questions of theological debate. Moreover, the complaint highlights the religiously coercive nature of the displays mandated by H.B. 71:


    “Permanently posting the Ten Commandments in every Louisiana public-school classroom–rendering them unavoidable– unconstitutionally pressures students into religious observance, veneration, and adoption of the state’s favored religious scripture. It also sends the harmful and religiously divisive message that students who do not subscribe to the Ten Commandments—or, more precisely, to the specific version of the Ten Commandments that H.B. 71 requires schools to display—do not belong in their own school community and should refrain from expressing any faith practices or beliefs that are not aligned with the state’s religious preferences.”


    Plaintiffs include: Unitarian Universalist minister, Rev. Darcy Roake, her husband Adrian Van Young, and their two children; Rev. Jeff Sims, a Presbyterian (U.S.A.) minister, and his three children; nonreligious parents Jennifer Harding and Benjamin Owens and their child; Erin and David Hawley and their two children–a Unitarian Universalist family; Dustin McCrory, an atheist, and his three children; Christy Alkire, who is nonreligious, and her child; and Joshua Herlands, who is Jewish and has two elementary-age children.



    In connection with today’s filing, plaintiffs in the case issued the following statements:


    Reverend Darcy Roake & Adrian Van Young

    “As an interfaith family, we strongly value religious inclusion and diversity, and we teach our children that all people are equal and have inherent dignity and worth. The Ten Commandments displays required by this law fly in the face of these values and send a message of religious intolerance. They will not only undermine our ability to instill these values in our children, but they will also help create an unwelcoming and oppressive school environment for children, like ours, who don’t believe in the state’s official version of scripture. We believe that no child should feel excluded in public school because of their family’s faith tradition.”


    Reverend Jeff Sims

    “By favoring one version of the Ten Commandments and mandating that it be posted in public schools, the government is intruding on deeply personal matters of religion. I believe that it’s critical for my children to receive and understand scripture within the context of our faith, which honors God’s gift of diversity and teaches that all people are equal. This law sends a contrary message of religious intolerance that one denomination or faith system is officially preferable to others, and that those who don’t adhere to it are lesser in worth and status. As a pastor and father, I cannot, in good conscience, sit by silently while our political representatives usurp God’s authority for themselves and trample our fundamental religious-freedom rights.”


    Jennifer Harding and Benjamin Owens

    “As a nonreligious family, we oppose the government forcibly subjecting our child to a religious scripture that we don’t believe in. The State of Louisiana should not direct a religious upbringing of our child or require students to observe the state’s preferred religious doctrine in every classroom.”


    Erin Hawley and David Hawley

    “We instill moral and ethical values in our children through positive concepts, such as love and caring for others, not biblical commandments. As Unitarian Universalists, we strongly believe that every person has the right to undertake a free and responsible search for truth and meaning. That cannot happen when the government forces scripture on people, especially children—who are at the beginning of their spiritual journeys.”


    Joshua Herlands

    “As a parent, an American, and a Jew, I am appalled that state lawmakers are forcing public schools to post a specific version of the Ten Commandments in every classroom. These displays distort the Jewish significance of the Ten Commandments and send the troubling message to students that one set of religious laws is favored over all others. Tolerance is at the heart of our family’s practice of Judaism, and this effort to evangelize students, including my children, is antithetical to our core religious beliefs and our values as Americans.”



    In connection with today’s filing, the civil-rights organizations representing the plaintiffs issued the following statements:

    “This law is a disturbing abuse of power by state officials,” said Heather L. Weaver, senior staff attorney for the ACLU’s Program on Freedom of Religion and Belief. “Louisiana law requires children to attend school so they can be educated, not evangelized. In bringing today’s lawsuit, we intend to make sure that Louisiana public schools remain welcoming to all students, regardless of their faith.”


    “By filing this lawsuit, Louisianans clap back and let the Governor know he can’t use religion as a cover for repression,” said Alanah Odoms, executive director of the ACLU of Louisiana. “Public schools are not Sunday schools. We must protect the individual right of students and families to choose their own faith or no faith at all. The separation of church and state is a bedrock of our nation’s founding principles; the ten commandments are not.”


    “This lawsuit is necessary to protect the religious freedom of Louisiana public schoolchildren and their families,” said Rachel Laser, president and CEO of Americans United for Separation of Church and State. “Not just in Louisiana, but all across the country, Christian Nationalists are seeking to infiltrate our public schools and force everyone to live by their beliefs. Not under our watch. Secular, inclusive public schools that welcome all students regardless of their belief system form the backbone of our diverse and religiously pluralistic communities. This nation must recommit to our foundational principle of church-state separation before it’s too late. Public education, religious freedom and democracy are all on the line.”


    “A state may not force religion upon a captive audience of young and impressionable students with varying religions — or none at all,” said FFRF Legal Director Patrick Elliott. “We look forward to protecting the constitutional rights of all families in Louisiana.”


    Jon Youngwood, Global Co-Chair of the Litigation Department at Simpson Thacher & Bartlett LLP, added, “As the Complaint states, Louisiana’s law inhibits our clients’ First Amendment rights to choose whether and how they engage with religious doctrines. We look forward to expeditiously presenting this case to the district court for a speedy resolution.”


    A copy of the complaint can be found here: https://assets.aclu.org/live/uploads...v.-Brumley.pdf



    https://www.aclu.org/press-releases/...n-commandments
    ____________

    An Agorist Primer ~ Samuel Edward Konkin III (free PDF download)

    The End of All Evil ~ Jeremy Locke (free PDF download)



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  3. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    This law does not only apply to public schools
    there are schools in lousiana not taking public monies that are not religious schools? Hard to imagine , if so they should sue if that is what they like. Im sure they have an excellent presentation on why a young student should not learn to be discouraged from coveting , bearing false witness etc, I suppose the state can put forth a presentation on how coveting has lead to downfall of a nation where only 6 in ten work and only two of those pay more tax than recieve. It should be excellent , lol
    Last edited by oyarde; 06-25-2024 at 06:57 AM.
    Do something Danke



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  5. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowball View Post
    Your answer is that only the Federal government is barred Constitutionally from it.

    States and municipalities can and have done so.
    The question posed in the thread title makes no mention of the Constitution.
    There is nothing to fear from globalism, free trade and a single worldwide currency, but a globalism where free trade is competitively subsidized by each nation, a continuous trade war is dictated by the WTO, and the single currency is pure fiat, fear is justified. That type of globalism is destined to collapse into economic despair, inflationism and protectionism and managed by resurgent militant nationalism.
    Ron Paul
    Congressional Record (March 13, 2001)

  6. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    it's freedom of religion not freedom from religion.
    Freedom of religion doesn't include the right to have government promote a particular faith (i.e., theism).
    We have long had death and taxes as the two standards of inevitability. But there are those who believe that death is the preferable of the two. "At least," as one man said, "there's one advantage about death; it doesn't get worse every time Congress meets."
    Erwin N. Griswold

    Taxes: Of life's two certainties, the only one for which you can get an automatic extension.
    Anonymous

  7. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Invisible Man View Post
    The question posed in the thread title makes no mention of the Constitution.
    their case is Federal.

    "In their complaint filed today in the U.S. District Court ..."
    "When Sombart says: "Capitalism is born from the money-loan", I should like to add to this: Capitalism actually exists only in the money-loan;" - Theodor Fritsch

  8. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowball View Post
    their case is Federal.

    "In their complaint filed today in the U.S. District Court ..."
    If the question is, "Should the federal government interfere with state laws respecting the establishment of religion?" then then answer is no, both constitutionally and ethically (the ethical issue is far more important than the constitutional one).

    But if the question is, "Should government [any government] pass laws to require the display of religious material?" that's an entirely different question, and one that can be resolved only by an appeal to justice, and not to the Constitution.
    There is nothing to fear from globalism, free trade and a single worldwide currency, but a globalism where free trade is competitively subsidized by each nation, a continuous trade war is dictated by the WTO, and the single currency is pure fiat, fear is justified. That type of globalism is destined to collapse into economic despair, inflationism and protectionism and managed by resurgent militant nationalism.
    Ron Paul
    Congressional Record (March 13, 2001)

  9. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Invisible Man View Post
    If the question is, "Should the federal government interfere with state laws respecting the establishment of religion?" then then answer is no, both constitutionally and ethically (the ethical issue is far more important than the constitutional one).

    But if the question is, "Should government [any government] pass laws to require the display of religious material?" that's an entirely different question, and one that can be resolved only by an appeal to justice, and not to the Constitution.
    What's an "appeal to justice" in Federal courts without the Constitution? The Constitution is the law of the land.
    Are you suggesting it should be ignored? This is how slippery slopes lather up. Appeal to "justice" is quite a broad subjective plea.
    "When Sombart says: "Capitalism is born from the money-loan", I should like to add to this: Capitalism actually exists only in the money-loan;" - Theodor Fritsch

  10. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowball View Post
    The Constitution is the law of the land.
    On what do you base this claim?
    There is nothing to fear from globalism, free trade and a single worldwide currency, but a globalism where free trade is competitively subsidized by each nation, a continuous trade war is dictated by the WTO, and the single currency is pure fiat, fear is justified. That type of globalism is destined to collapse into economic despair, inflationism and protectionism and managed by resurgent militant nationalism.
    Ron Paul
    Congressional Record (March 13, 2001)

  11. #39

    Louisiana Constitution

    Article I: Declaration of Rights

    Section 8. No law shall be enacted respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.



    https://law.justia.com/constitution/.../Article1.html
    ____________

    An Agorist Primer ~ Samuel Edward Konkin III (free PDF download)

    The End of All Evil ~ Jeremy Locke (free PDF download)

  12. #40
    Incidentally, the Louisiana Constitution includes this:
    §8. Freedom of ReligionSection 8. No law shall be enacted respecting anestablishment of religion or prohibiting the freeexercise thereof.
    https://senate.la.gov/Documents/LAConstitution.pdf

    I merely mention that as a point of fact. I don't concede that any question of what ought and ought not to be done by anyone can be decided by what the Louisiana Constitution says, any more than it could be decided by any other make believe law that I personally dream up and write on a piece of paper for no other reason than that I want to.
    There is nothing to fear from globalism, free trade and a single worldwide currency, but a globalism where free trade is competitively subsidized by each nation, a continuous trade war is dictated by the WTO, and the single currency is pure fiat, fear is justified. That type of globalism is destined to collapse into economic despair, inflationism and protectionism and managed by resurgent militant nationalism.
    Ron Paul
    Congressional Record (March 13, 2001)



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  14. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Invisible Man View Post
    On what do you base this claim?
    "Supremacy Clause"

    Article VI

    This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.
    "When Sombart says: "Capitalism is born from the money-loan", I should like to add to this: Capitalism actually exists only in the money-loan;" - Theodor Fritsch

  15. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowball View Post
    The Constitution is the law of the land.
    Quote Originally Posted by Invisible Man View Post
    On what do you base this claim?
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowball View Post
    "Supremacy Clause"

    Article VI

    This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.
    Hopefully, I don't need to explain the problem with your reasoning here.
    There is nothing to fear from globalism, free trade and a single worldwide currency, but a globalism where free trade is competitively subsidized by each nation, a continuous trade war is dictated by the WTO, and the single currency is pure fiat, fear is justified. That type of globalism is destined to collapse into economic despair, inflationism and protectionism and managed by resurgent militant nationalism.
    Ron Paul
    Congressional Record (March 13, 2001)

  16. #43

    Louisiana Constitution

    Article I: Declaration of Rights

    Section 8. No law shall be enacted respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.

    https://law.justia.com/constitution/.../Article1.html



    U.S. Constitution Bill of Rights

    Amendment I
    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

    https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitu...irst_amendment



    Referencing the First Amendment to the United States Constitution, Jefferson writes:

    "Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church and State."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separa...urch_and_state
    ____________

    An Agorist Primer ~ Samuel Edward Konkin III (free PDF download)

    The End of All Evil ~ Jeremy Locke (free PDF download)

  17. #44
    I don't think posting the ten commandments, in and of itself, rises to the level of "establishing" a state religion.
    “It is not true that all creeds and cultures are equally assimilable in a First World nation born of England, Christianity, and Western civilization. Race, faith, ethnicity and history leave genetic fingerprints no ‘proposition nation’ can erase." -- Pat Buchanan

  18. #45
    “It is not true that all creeds and cultures are equally assimilable in a First World nation born of England, Christianity, and Western civilization. Race, faith, ethnicity and history leave genetic fingerprints no ‘proposition nation’ can erase." -- Pat Buchanan

  19. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    I don't think posting the ten commandments, in and of itself, rises to the level of "establishing" a state religion.
    As I see it, all education is inherently religious. All government involvement in education rises to the level of establishing religion.

    But I would concede that displaying the 10 Commandments is not in any way more religious than everything the same schools already do without displaying the 10 Commandments. Every poster they display about self esteem, bullying, patriotism, diversity, going to college, eating healthy, exercising, as well as all of the academic material for every class they teach (yes, even math), is just as religious as the 10 Commandments.
    There is nothing to fear from globalism, free trade and a single worldwide currency, but a globalism where free trade is competitively subsidized by each nation, a continuous trade war is dictated by the WTO, and the single currency is pure fiat, fear is justified. That type of globalism is destined to collapse into economic despair, inflationism and protectionism and managed by resurgent militant nationalism.
    Ron Paul
    Congressional Record (March 13, 2001)

  20. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    I don't think posting the ten commandments, in and of itself, rises to the level of "establishing" a state religion.
    It's the very first step, however. It's the camel's nose under the tent. Do you trust the politicians enacting and supporting these laws currently being passed? When has government ever actually improved anything? Everything the government touches turns to ...? And remember, most of these people are either RC or buddies with them. And we all know the track record of the RCC when it comes to religious liberty. This is only the beginning, and it's going to get worse. Much, much worse. And don't get me wrong, the left is doing the same thing, just a different flavor. And they are buddies with the RCC, too.

  21. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    I don't think posting the ten commandments, in and of itself, rises to the level of "establishing" a state religion.
    Post #31:

    Reverend Jeff Sims

    By favoring one version of the Ten Commandments and mandating that it be posted in public schools, the government is intruding on deeply personal matters of religion.
    Last edited by PAF; 06-25-2024 at 09:17 AM.
    ____________

    An Agorist Primer ~ Samuel Edward Konkin III (free PDF download)

    The End of All Evil ~ Jeremy Locke (free PDF download)



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  23. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by redmod79 View Post
    It's the very first step, however. It's the camel's nose under the tent. Do you trust the politicians enacting and supporting these laws currently being passed? When has government ever actually improved anything? Everything the government touches turns to ...? And remember, most of these people are either RC or buddies with them. And we all know the track record of the RCC when it comes to religious liberty. This is only the beginning, and it's going to get worse. Much, much worse. And don't get me wrong, the left is doing the same thing, just a different flavor. And they are buddies with the RCC, too.

    "You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to redmod79 again."


    They forget how they cheered the Covid VAX when "republicans" first promoted it, quickly forgetting that Government Has No Business In Healthcare. Now it's Government Has No Business In Religion, and they still haven't learned.
    ____________

    An Agorist Primer ~ Samuel Edward Konkin III (free PDF download)

    The End of All Evil ~ Jeremy Locke (free PDF download)

  24. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Invisible Man View Post
    all of the academic material for every class they teach (yes, even math), is just as religious as the 10 Commandments.
    What's the religious content in the binomial theorem, the proof that there is no largest prime, or the proof that the square root of 2 is not rational?
    We have long had death and taxes as the two standards of inevitability. But there are those who believe that death is the preferable of the two. "At least," as one man said, "there's one advantage about death; it doesn't get worse every time Congress meets."
    Erwin N. Griswold

    Taxes: Of life's two certainties, the only one for which you can get an automatic extension.
    Anonymous

  25. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    Post #31:

    Reverend Jeff Sims

    By favoring one version of the Ten Commandments and mandating that it be posted in public schools, the government is intruding on deeply personal matters of religion.
    Sims is right about that. But this point always needs to be balanced by the counterpoint that by favoring secular education, or the pretense of secular education, the government is just as egregiously (perhaps even more egregiously) intruding on deeply personal matters of religion.
    There is nothing to fear from globalism, free trade and a single worldwide currency, but a globalism where free trade is competitively subsidized by each nation, a continuous trade war is dictated by the WTO, and the single currency is pure fiat, fear is justified. That type of globalism is destined to collapse into economic despair, inflationism and protectionism and managed by resurgent militant nationalism.
    Ron Paul
    Congressional Record (March 13, 2001)

  26. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    Post #31:
    I disagree with Rev. Jeff Sims.

    The commandments are a part of western canon and history going back centuries.

    The were routinely placed in public buildings all across America for hundreds of years.

    And we were a better, more free, more prosperous and more healthy nation, because of that, and a thousand other little "minor details" like that, than we are now.
    “It is not true that all creeds and cultures are equally assimilable in a First World nation born of England, Christianity, and Western civilization. Race, faith, ethnicity and history leave genetic fingerprints no ‘proposition nation’ can erase." -- Pat Buchanan

  27. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonny Tufts View Post
    What's the religious content in the binomial theorem, the proof that there is no largest prime, or the proof that the square root of 2 is not rational?
    The undergirding assumption that these immaterial entities have objective truth value is inherently religious, and ultimately finds its support in the Triune God of the Bible.
    There is nothing to fear from globalism, free trade and a single worldwide currency, but a globalism where free trade is competitively subsidized by each nation, a continuous trade war is dictated by the WTO, and the single currency is pure fiat, fear is justified. That type of globalism is destined to collapse into economic despair, inflationism and protectionism and managed by resurgent militant nationalism.
    Ron Paul
    Congressional Record (March 13, 2001)

  28. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by redmod79 View Post
    It's the very first step, however. It's the camel's nose under the tent. Do you trust the politicians enacting and supporting these laws currently being passed? When has government ever actually improved anything? Everything the government touches turns to ...? And remember, most of these people are either RC or buddies with them. And we all know the track record of the RCC when it comes to religious liberty. This is only the beginning, and it's going to get worse. Much, much worse. And don't get me wrong, the left is doing the same thing, just a different flavor. And they are buddies with the RCC, too.
    No, I do not, which is why I think mandatory government education should be abolished.
    “It is not true that all creeds and cultures are equally assimilable in a First World nation born of England, Christianity, and Western civilization. Race, faith, ethnicity and history leave genetic fingerprints no ‘proposition nation’ can erase." -- Pat Buchanan

  29. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    No, I do not, which is why I think mandatory government education should be abolished.
    But in the meantime, you are advocating that politicians and governments have the right to intrude/dictate into the religious freedom of individuals lives.
    ____________

    An Agorist Primer ~ Samuel Edward Konkin III (free PDF download)

    The End of All Evil ~ Jeremy Locke (free PDF download)

  30. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by redmod79 View Post
    It's the very first step, however. It's the camel's nose under the tent. Do you trust the politicians enacting and supporting these laws currently being passed? When has government ever actually improved anything? Everything the government touches turns to ...? And remember, most of these people are either RC or buddies with them. And we all know the track record of the RCC when it comes to religious liberty. This is only the beginning, and it's going to get worse. Much, much worse. And don't get me wrong, the left is doing the same thing, just a different flavor. And they are buddies with the RCC, too.
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    They forget how they cheered the Covid VAX when "republicans" first promoted it, quickly forgetting that Government Has No Business In Healthcare. Now it's Government Has No Business In Religion, and they still haven't learned.


    //
    ____________

    An Agorist Primer ~ Samuel Edward Konkin III (free PDF download)

    The End of All Evil ~ Jeremy Locke (free PDF download)



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  32. #57
    This is hegelian dialectic at its finest. There are posters in this thread who are rightfully against what the left is espousing, but then they unfortunately default to supporting its apparent opposition. Satan has his hands in both cookie jars (left and right). The left grows in its extremism, and in response the right grows in its extremism. And it is going back and forth and will continue until one side has enough support to force its evil edicts on the entire population. The left is gaining traction for its climate sundays https://www.climatesunday.org/ and the right is gaining traction for its project 2025 https://www.project2025.org/. The man of sin is fine with either.

  33. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Invisible Man View Post
    The undergirding assumptions that these immaterial entities have objective truth value is inherently religious, and ultimately finds its support in the Triune God of the Bible.
    Euclid and the other ancients who came up with the latter two examples (as well as many others) did just fine without the biblical deity.

    I'm reminded of the anecdote about the French physicist Pierre-Simon Laplace, who presented his book on celestial mechanics to Napoleon. At their meeting Napoleon asked Laplace why there was no mention of God in the work, to which Laplace replied, "I had no need of that hypothesis."
    We have long had death and taxes as the two standards of inevitability. But there are those who believe that death is the preferable of the two. "At least," as one man said, "there's one advantage about death; it doesn't get worse every time Congress meets."
    Erwin N. Griswold

    Taxes: Of life's two certainties, the only one for which you can get an automatic extension.
    Anonymous

  34. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    But in the meantime, you are advocating that politicians and governments have the right to intrude/dictate into the religious freedom of individuals lives.
    I don't find it to be dictating, intrusive or extremist.

    Look on the bright side, maybe the upset people will start removing their kids from the government school system.

    Why should you be paying for them anyway?
    “It is not true that all creeds and cultures are equally assimilable in a First World nation born of England, Christianity, and Western civilization. Race, faith, ethnicity and history leave genetic fingerprints no ‘proposition nation’ can erase." -- Pat Buchanan

  35. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    I don't find it to be dictating, intrusive or extremist.

    Look on the bright side, maybe the upset people will start removing their kids from the government school system.

    Why should you be paying for them anyway?

    http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post7237542
    ____________

    An Agorist Primer ~ Samuel Edward Konkin III (free PDF download)

    The End of All Evil ~ Jeremy Locke (free PDF download)

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