Government, religion, and "secular" vs. "religious"

[PAF]

I thought so. At best, it’s a philosophy but not a religion. It shouldn’t have protections a religion actually has.

Should politicians/government be involved at all?

If the Ten Commandments can be mandated to be in every classroom in every school throughout an entire state, would it not open the doors for any/other religious material politicians/government mandates? Should or should not there be a Separation of Church and State?

* The US government has recognized the Satanic Temple as a tax-exempt organized religion.

[redmod79]

I mean, who but God knows. God is sovereign over all things, including the antichrist State, which he is going to slaughter en masse when he returns (Rev. 19:11-21, Ezek. 39:17-20, Isa. 63:1ff, etc.) He frequently uses the wicked for his own purposes, expending them against each other, before he summarily destroys them all. I assume he's just being efficient...

I agree with everything you said here. I just think out outlooks are different. Just take a look at what God did with Nebuchadnezzar. He used him to punish Jerusalem, but he also worked a miracle and changed Nebuchadnezzar's heart. Nebuchadnezzar was a brutal king, and had some wisdom, but it took cutting him down to the ground for him to recognize the most high God ruled. Maybe this is a tangent, but I think it was amazing. He definitely was the head of gold, because didn't let his wise men fool him like Darius did, among other things. Back to point, I think God is going to use the current events to give people who otherwise wouldn't be in such a position to learn about His will and give them an opportunity to repent and follow Him. This includes the politicians and those the laws are imposed on. I also think that most of these people imposing these laws will harden their hearts and become drunk with their power and try to force the conscience and persecute those who don't align with their views. It has certainly happened in the past, and history does tend to repeat itself. At the very least, you should be skeptical and keep an eye out for these things, and of course prayerfully consider these things.

[ClaytonB]

Back to point, I think God is going to use the current events to give people who otherwise wouldn't be in such a position to learn about His will and give them an opportunity to repent and follow Him. This includes the politicians and those the laws are imposed on.

For the sake of those in the antichrist State, I hope so. They are marked for slaughter until they repent and believe in Jesus.

I also think that most of these people imposing these laws will harden their hearts and become drunk with their power and try to force the conscience and persecute those who don't align with their views.

Sadly, that appears to be the case, Luke 16:31.

[Swordsmyth]

Gotta love the prog-logic. If you're not for a federal ED, you don't want kids to learn. If you don't want the insensitive clod to holler, "Hope the plane don't crash!" you want the plane to crash.

There is no other reason for you to cite it as a garbage post.
Your fallback when called out that you just don't like me and I should shut up shows you either didn't think about what you were saying or that's what you meant.

[Swordsmyth]

Teaching the Bible in school is not the Roman Catholic Church burning people it denounces as heretics, nor is it on a "slippery-slope" to the latter. We have tried the "secular" formula for six or seven decades now. It's what gave us children being butchered on a surgical table in the name of being "Woke", whatever that is. There are a few options available:

a) (BEST) Separate government and education. Allow parents to choose the school their children attend, or homeschool them. End truancy laws, etc.

b) Prohibit all promotion of homosexuality or other "alternative" lifestyles in the government schools. Stop and reverse the "secular" trend back to the 1950's or so, when it was permissible for a teacher to lead their class in prayer, if they so chose, as well as teach from the Bible.

c) Failing these, then impose mandates like the Oklahoma one in this article. We already tried the supposedly "neutral" option. It turns out it's not neutral. This is not the best alternative (either a or b is preferable), but "no response" to The Agenda is the same as a rubber-stamp on it. There must be and will be a response. This is how Oklahoma has chosen to respond. Good for them.

There is no reason to debate 7th Day Adventists.
They are members of a cult that set a date for the end of the world multiple times and kept on staying in the cult when they passed with no end of the world.
They've been preaching this unbiblical National Sunday Law garbage for generations and are looking for an excuse to claim that one of their prophecies might someday come true.
In so doing they are being tools of the communists and satanists to help oppose all Christianity in the public square.
By their fruits ye shall know the wolves in shepherd's clothing and the goats that follow them.

[Swordsmyth]

1 All religions do not have a right to equal representation in history class

2 They will tell you that they are not a religion when you accuse them of devil worship, it's a lie but it disqualifies their claims to being a religion when it's convenient

3 Anti-Christian religions were never covered by the 1stA

4 Their satanic "atheist" garbage has been in the schools for many generations already and hasn't been driven out yet

5 You cannot have a religious vacuum in your culture, if you do not fill the void with a righteous religion like Christianity it will be filled by an evil one, so until government schools are gone they must be made to post the 10 commandments and teach the religious history of our nation and culture from a neutral (within Christianity) standpoint

[acptulsa]

There is no other reason for you to cite it as a garbage post.
Your fallback when called out that you just don't like me...

See, that's where you're wrong. You show up every morning and stage your Two Minutes' Hate and shovel vitriol in every direction. You talk about losertarians and call people cultists and state your opinions as facts and accuse people who don't have the same opinions of being traitors or democrats or whatever insult you can think of. That's why people don't seem to like you.

And then you want to play victim cards like a prog as quick as you can. Oh you just decided not to like me or just get deranged about me because I live in Trump's shadow or, like a prog, whatever victim card you can grasp regardless of whether it makes any sense at all.

The people here who dislike you dislike you because you act exactly like a Democrat. Save your victim cards for the DU. They play crying games over there. They love the third grade game of calling people doody heads until you get hit, then running to the teacher on the prog sites.

[Swordsmyth]

See, that's where you're wrong. You show up every morning and stage your Two Minutes' Hate and shovel vitriol in every direction. You talk about losertarians and call people cultists and state your opinions as facts and accuse people who don't have the same opinions of being traitors or democrats or whatever insult you can think of. That's why people don't seem to like you.

And then you want to play victim cards like a prog as quick as you can. Oh you just decided not to like me or just get deranged about me because I live in Trump's shadow or, like a prog, whatever victim card you can grasp regardless of whether it makes any sense at all.

The people here who dislike you dislike you because you act exactly like a Democrat. Save your victim cards for the DU. They play crying games over there. They love the third grade game of calling people doody heads until you get hit, then running to the teacher on the prog sites.

Projection.

[tebowlives]

There is no reason to debate 7th Day Adventists.
They are members of a cult that set a date for the end of the world multiple times and kept on staying in the cult when they passed with no end of the world.
They've been preaching this unbiblical National Sunday Law garbage for generations and are looking for an excuse to claim that one of their prophecies might someday come true.
In so doing they are being tools of the communists and satanists to help oppose all Christianity in the public square.
By their fruits ye shall know the wolves in shepherd's clothing and the goats that follow them.

You made it about the speaker and not the substance of the video. It's sloppy

[acptulsa]

You made it about the speaker and not the substance of the video. It's sloppy

Taking everything on earth personally is just one of those things humorless people do. There's no accounting for it.

[ClaytonB]

Having "Secular" Humanism officially declared a religion would be an interesting development. And a very useful step.

I'm not sure what you're trying to imply here, but all I can say is that when the government sticks its nose into religion even under the pretense of "neutrality", it is a violation of 1A. So, if we're going to have this so-called" neutrality", then let it be actually "neutral", meaning, the Bible is to be taught in schools to combat the Woke butchery of children. And if SCOTUS wants to pick a fight directly with the Almighty on the issue, that will be their funeral...

[jmdrake]

As long as they are part of the historical lessons they absolutely belong.

The schools should not try to teach any interpretations of religious documents.

And there shouldn't be government schools, but that's a different matter entirely.

Why mandate the Bible and the 10 commandments for historical reasons and ignore all of the other history before and after? The Code of Hammurabi? The Magna Charter? The laws of the Iroquois Confederacy? It's a transparent attempt to bring religion back into public schools. I agree that there shouldn't be government schools, but they do exist. I understand (and sympathize) with the desire to counteract the rising tide of secular humanism and gender ideology but this is problematic.

[jmdrake]

Drivel.

36 Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place.”

Coming from an expert, that reads like a recommendation. I'll have to make some time to watch it.

Forums need a "words per post" stat. That would tell us more about who we're dealing with than likes and such.

It's definitely worth watching. And take the time to read and understand Daniel and Revelation and Matthew 24.

[jmdrake]

If you want to waste your time on 7th Day Adventist nonsense feel free to do so.
You'll have that much less time to spend on garbage posts.

7th Day Adventists aren't the only ones to see what's going on. Protestantism in general once understood the danger state religion which is why the First Amendment to the Constitution includes both an anti establishment clause and a free exercise clause. The Second Coming is closer than you think.

[jmdrake]

Oklahoma state superintendent announces all schools must incorporate the Bible and the Ten Commandments in curriculums

https://www.cnn.com/2024/06/27/us/ok...lum/index.html

By Alaa Elassar, CNN Thu June 27, 2024

CNN
—
All Oklahoma schools are required to incorporate the Bible and the Ten Commandments in their curriculums, effective immediately, the state’s chief education officer announced in a memorandum Thursday.

At a State Board of Education meeting, Oklahoma State Superintendent of Public Instruction Ryan Walters said the Bible is “one of the most foundational documents used for the Constitution and the birth of our country.”

“It’s crystal clear to us that in the Oklahoma academic standards under Title 70 on multiple occasions, the Bible is a necessary historical document to teach our kids about the history of this country, to have a complete understanding of Western civilization, to have an understanding of the basis of our legal system,” Walters said.

Every classroom in the state from grades 5 through 12 must have a Bible and all teachers must teach from the Bible in the classroom, Walters said.

If the goal is for students to understand about the history of the country and have a complete understanding of the basis of our legal system, why aren't they mandating all classrooms display a copy of the U.S. Constitution, the Declaration of Independence and the Magna Charter?

[jmdrake]

Be careful who you quote history from. Ellen G. White propaganda above.

Oh that's right. You're okay with murdering heretics. I forgot.

[acptulsa]

I'm not sure what you're trying to imply here...

I'm not implying anything. I'm sick of Humanism not being treated as the religion it is because some psyop gamer falsely stuck "Secular" on the front of it.

Henry Luce was running the Empire Propaganda sixty years ago when they first decreed that the religion Humanism would never again appear without the camouflage of the prefix "Secular". That's how it was allowed to become the monopoly religion in public schools.

[jmdrake]

Teaching the Bible in school is not the Roman Catholic Church burning people it denounces as heretics, nor is it on a "slippery-slope" to the latter. We have tried the "secular" formula for six or seven decades now. It's what gave us children being butchered on a surgical table in the name of being "Woke", whatever that is. There are a few options available:

a) (BEST) Separate government and education. Allow parents to choose the school their children attend, or homeschool them. End truancy laws, etc.

b) Prohibit all promotion of homosexuality or other "alternative" lifestyles in the government schools. Stop and reverse the "secular" trend back to the 1950's or so, when it was permissible for a teacher to lead their class in prayer, if they so chose, as well as teach from the Bible.

c) Failing these, then impose mandates like the Oklahoma one in this article. We already tried the supposedly "neutral" option. It turns out it's not neutral. This is not the best alternative (either a or b is preferable), but "no response" to The Agenda is the same as a rubber-stamp on it. There must be and will be a response. This is how Oklahoma has chosen to respond. Good for them.

While I sympathize with the concern about how far the country has lurched to the left, when I see overreactions to the right I happen to think of the Tacoma Narrows Bridge.



And this happens over and over again. Once upon a time, before the country was even founded, under English common law abortion was legal until the "quickening" (14 weeks). Then people decided in some states to ban abortion almost entirely. Then we had Roe v Wade grant a "right" to an abortion up until 24 weeks. (Barbaric). Now were back to some states with near total abortion bans. Alabama ended up accidentally banning IVF and the legislature had to turn around and specifically grant IVF clinics immunity for the accidental destruction of embryos. Common sense sems to fly out of the window over and over again.

As far as the gender madness going on in this country, notice that multiple European countries are backing away from it based on a purely scientific and medical ethics point of view. But in this country such a rational move cannot happen because the Rachel Levines of the world hide behind the "You just hate me because you're a religious nutcase / bigot" fig leaf. No real conversations about the issue are allowed.

[acptulsa]

While I sympathize with the concern about how far the country has lurched to the left, when I see overreactions to the right I happen to think of the Tacoma Narrows Bridge.

I like the analogy. Swinging left and right gave it metal fatigue, and it's giving us mental fatigue.

[jmdrake]

There is no reason to debate 7th Day Adventists.
They are members of a cult that set a date for the end of the world multiple times and kept on staying in the cult when they passed with no end of the world.
They've been preaching this unbiblical National Sunday Law garbage for generations and are looking for an excuse to claim that one of their prophecies might someday come true.
In so doing they are being tools of the communists and satanists to help oppose all Christianity in the public square.
By their fruits ye shall know the wolves in shepherd's clothing and the goats that follow them.

Actually that's not true. William Miller set a date, 1844, for the Second Coming based on the time prophecies in Daniel that accurately predicted when Jesus would come the first time as the Messiah. People who are as far from being Seventh Day Adventists are you are still recognize the same time prophecy for that reason, but todays (false) Jews don't even look at it.

[ClaytonB]

While I sympathize with the concern about how far the country has lurched to the left, when I see overreactions to the right I happen to think of the Tacoma Narrows Bridge.

In control theory, there is a concept of "poles" and "zeroes". Zeroes are states in which the system is in complete stasis (and cannot be moved out of it). Poles are where the state is in a kind of "infinite oscillation"... Tacoma Narrows bridge times infinity. The point is that we are not just on a Tacoma Narrows bridge anymore, what the Deep State has actually done behind the cover of darkness is push us up a cosmic pole. Aka the Apocalypse. Clown World isn't just different from previous corruptions, it's uniquely different. There has never been a time like the past, but in Clown World, there has never been a time not like the past in the way that Clown World is not like the past. Every indication I can see is that there has been a discrete break from the past, a discontinuity, an infinite pole, an unbounded oscillation. Right and left don't matter anymore. This is GOOD and EVIL, just like the Bible and Grandma said. I'm not talking about November, either. I'm talking about the world. The old "Left/Right" mind-control paradigm itself is being shattered by the Clown World pole we are currently at. It's all coming apart at the seams. The mask is (literally) slipping.

You have heard these things; look at them all. Will you not admit them? "From now on I will tell you of new things, of hidden things unknown to you. They are created now, and not long ago; you have not heard of them before today. So you cannot say, 'Yes, I knew of them.' (Isa. 48:6,7)

[LibertyEagle]

And here we go.

Separation of Church and State..... nooooooooo, say the "righteous".

You have been a member here long enough to know that there is no separation of church and state in the Constitution.

[LibertyEagle]

I haven’t lived there since grad school, but I was born and raised in Oklahoma. If it is anything at all like it was when I lived there, they will deal with this in short order. If my Mother was still alive, I’d give it until next week.

[Snowball]

Oklahoma has every right to ban them and use force when necessary to make them vacate any premises.

[Snowball]

All states have the right to official religion if they so choose.

Only Congress can't pass a law on the Federal level.

[LibertyEagle]

See, that's where you're wrong. You show up every morning and stage your Two Minutes' Hate and shovel vitriol in every direction. You talk about losertarians and call people cultists and state your opinions as facts and accuse people who don't have the same opinions of being traitors or democrats or whatever insult you can think of. That's why people don't seem to like you.

And then you want to play victim cards like a prog as quick as you can. Oh you just decided not to like me or just get deranged about me because I live in Trump's shadow or, like a prog, whatever victim card you can grasp regardless of whether it makes any sense at all.

The people here who dislike you dislike you because you act exactly like a Democrat. Save your victim cards for the DU. They play crying games over there. They love the third grade game of calling people doody heads until you get hit, then running to the teacher on the prog sites.

You both do the very same thing, Tulsa.

[Madison320]

Why mandate the Bible and the 10 commandments for historical reasons and ignore all of the other history before and after? The Code of Hammurabi? The Magna Charter? The laws of the Iroquois Confederacy? It's a transparent attempt to bring religion back into public schools. I agree that there shouldn't be government schools, but they do exist. I understand (and sympathize) with the desire to counteract the rising tide of secular humanism and gender ideology but this is problematic.

I totally agree. Repeal the bad laws, don't add more "good" laws that supposedly counter-act the "bad" laws. In this case I don't even see how studying the bible counter-acts wokeness. How about math, science, reading, writing?

[jmdrake]

In control theory, there is a concept of "poles" and "zeroes". Zeroes are states in which the system is in complete stasis (and cannot be moved out of it). Poles are where the state is in a kind of "infinite oscillation"... Tacoma Narrows bridge times infinity. The point is that we are not just on a Tacoma Narrows bridge anymore, what the Deep State has actually done behind the cover of darkness is push us up a cosmic pole. Aka the Apocalypse. Clown World isn't just different from previous corruptions, it's uniquely different. There has never been a time like the past, but in Clown World, there has never been a time not like the past in the way that Clown World is not like the past. Every indication I can see is that there has been a discrete break from the past, a discontinuity, an infinite pole, an unbounded oscillation. Right and left don't matter anymore. This is GOOD and EVIL, just like the Bible and Grandma said. I'm not talking about November, either. I'm talking about the world. The old "Left/Right" mind-control paradigm itself is being shattered by the Clown World pole we are currently at. It's all coming apart at the seams. The mask is (literally) slipping.

Oh....I'm not under the illusion that were aren't past the point of no return. There comes a time when you have to just jump off of the bridge. We may be close to that.

John 16:2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.

[jmdrake]

All states have the right to official religion if they so choose.

Only Congress can't pass a law on the Federal level.

Even if you don't believe in the incorporation doctrine (which means states can pass a law putting you in prison for a Ron Paul bumper sticker), all states, including Oklahoma, has some sort of religious freedom amendment.

https://www.oscn.net/applications/os...p?CiteID=84803

§ 2. Religious liberty - Polygamous or plural marriages.

Perfect toleration of religious sentiment shall be secured, and no inhabitant of the State shall ever be molested in person or property on account of his or her mode of religious worship; and no religious test shall be required for the exercise of civil or political rights. Polygamous or plural marriages are forever prohibited.

Not sure what the writers of the Oklahoma constitution meant by "perfect toleration of religious sentiment" but picking one religious text at the exclusion of all others doesn't sound like "perfect toleration." Anyhow, we'll see how the Oklahoma state courts and/or federal courts handle this soon enough I'm sure.

[Snowball]

Even if you don't believe in the incorporation doctrine (which means states can pass a law putting you in prison for a Ron Paul bumper sticker), all states, including Oklahoma, has some sort of religious freedom amendment.

https://www.oscn.net/applications/os...p?CiteID=84803

§ 2. Religious liberty - Polygamous or plural marriages.

Perfect toleration of religious sentiment shall be secured, and no inhabitant of the State shall ever be molested in person or property on account of his or her mode of religious worship; and no religious test shall be required for the exercise of civil or political rights. Polygamous or plural marriages are forever prohibited.

Not sure what the writers of the Oklahoma constitution meant by "perfect toleration of religious sentiment" but picking one religious text at the exclusion of all others doesn't sound like "perfect toleration." Anyhow, we'll see how the Oklahoma state courts and/or federal courts handle this soon enough I'm sure.

I don't see anything there which is pertinent to the case.