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Thread: Anarchy Is Neither Chaos nor Hard to Find

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    Your vision of Trump the Beneficent is no less a fantasy. You just admitted who it is that creates states. It's a fantasy even just to assume that once you take control of it away from these people, they won't try to take it back.

    A beneficent state is just as much a fantasy, just as much a utopian swindle that people delude themselves over.
    The founders created a state that was far better than any other, so have others throughout history, and so can we.
    Imperfect as all governments in history have been, the best of them created by those with good motives are far preferable to just letting the worst of humanity impose their rule on us.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment



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  3. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    The founders created a state that was far better than any other, so have others throughout history, and so can we.
    Imperfect as all governments in history have been, the best of them created by those with good motives are far preferable to just letting the worst of humanity impose their rule on us.
    You don't think Stalin at some forty million dead didn't outperform a gaggle of little local warlords? Not even a tiny bit?



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  5. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    You don't think Stalin at some forty million dead didn't outperform a gaggle of little local warlords? Not even a tiny bit?
    Stalin and friends are the kind of people who will form and impose a state if the good people don't create a better one to stop them.
    The whites (monarchist and republican) lost and the reds formed the government.
    The gaggle of local warlords will not stop them any more than the Chinese warlords stopped Mao.
    And local warlords have a pretty bad record themselves, ask Rwanda among many other places about that.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  6. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    And local warlords have a pretty bad record themselves, ask Rwanda among many other places about that.
    Try it yourself. They'll tell you about interference from French imperialism.

  7. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    Try it yourself. They'll tell you about interference from French imperialism.
    There are lots of examples from all through history where that wasn't a factor, like Genghis Khan's trail of bodies.
    And that just demonstrates that local warlords (who were absolutely part of it) were unable to protect against a much larger outside power.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  8. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    There are lots of examples from all through history where that wasn't a factor, like Genghis Khan's trail of bodies.
    And that just demonstrates that local warlords (who were absolutely part of it) were unable to protect against a much larger outside power.
    And now we are Khan. It's the U.S. leaving the trail of bodies.

    When the day comes, have fun explaining to our Lord and Savior why you supported and ran interference for the modern day version of old Genghis.

  9. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    And now we are Khan. It's the U.S. leaving the trail of bodies.

    When the day comes, have fun explaining to our Lord and Savior why you supported and ran interference for the modern day version of old Genghis.
    Have fun explaining your libel.

    I have never supported the foreign wars and what I advocate is designed to create a government least likely to engage in them as opposed to letting random conqueror types establish the government.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  10. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Have fun explaining your libel.

    I have never supported the foreign wars...
    ... but you sure support the status quo that wages them, wittingly or not.

    And if you do support them unwittingly, it's not for lack of access to information.

  11. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    ... but you sure support the status quo that wages them, wittingly or not.

    And if you do support them unwittingly, it's not for lack of access to information.
    If we just expand the jurisdiction of the regime widely enough, no wars will be foreign any more.

    The same logic that justifies the institution of the state over a territory of any size also justifies the institution of a single regime over the entire globe.
    There is nothing to fear from globalism, free trade and a single worldwide currency, but a globalism where free trade is competitively subsidized by each nation, a continuous trade war is dictated by the WTO, and the single currency is pure fiat, fear is justified. That type of globalism is destined to collapse into economic despair, inflationism and protectionism and managed by resurgent militant nationalism.
    Ron Paul
    Congressional Record (March 13, 2001)

  12. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    ... but you sure support the status quo that wages them, wittingly or not.

    And if you do support them unwittingly, it's not for lack of access to information.
    Nonsense.
    I support Trump who was ending them.
    You support the status quo by opposing him.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment



  13. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  14. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Invisible Man View Post
    If we just expand the jurisdiction of the regime widely enough, no wars will be foreign any more.

    The same logic that justifies the institution of the state over a territory of any size also justifies the institution of a single regime over the entire globe.
    LOL

    Absolutely not.
    The state is only justified to the point it can defend its people and not beyond.
    If it weren't a utopian pipe dream it would be best to not have a state at all, therefore it is only justified to the point of necessity.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  15. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    I support Trump who was ending them.
    He had four years. We were in World War II for three years and nine months.

    Suuuuuure he was trying to stop them.

  16. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    LOL

    Absolutely not.
    The state is only justified to the point it can defend its people and not beyond.
    If it weren't a utopian pipe dream it would be best to not have a state at all, therefore it is only justified to the point of necessity.

    Holy $#@!!

    You’re an anarchist!
    Chris

    "Government ... does not exist of necessity, but rather by virtue of a tragic, almost comical combination of klutzy, opportunistic terrorism against sitting ducks whom it pretends to shelter, plus our childish phobia of responsibility, praying to be exempted from the hard reality of life on life's terms." Wolf DeVoon

    "...Make America Great Again. I'm interested in making American FREE again. Then the greatness will come automatically."Ron Paul

  17. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by CCTelander View Post
    Holy $#@!!

    You’re an anarchist!
    Without sarcasm, I've considered SS to be an anarchist for years now.
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Crenshaw 2024!!!!

    My pronouns are he/him/his

  18. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTexan View Post
    Without sarcasm, I've considered SS to be an anarchist for years now.

    Without sarcasm:





    His stance on protectionism and tariffs [which is function of raising government revenue] alone proves that he is the furthest thing from an anarchist, not to mention his stances on other governmental policy.
    ____________

    An Agorist Primer ~ Samuel Edward Konkin III (free PDF download)

    The End of All Evil ~ Jeremy Locke (free PDF download)

  19. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTexan View Post
    Without sarcasm, I've considered SS to be an anarchist for years now.

    Well, I WAS being sarcastic. Typically anarchists don’t advocate for authoritarian “solutions” at virtually every turn.
    Chris

    "Government ... does not exist of necessity, but rather by virtue of a tragic, almost comical combination of klutzy, opportunistic terrorism against sitting ducks whom it pretends to shelter, plus our childish phobia of responsibility, praying to be exempted from the hard reality of life on life's terms." Wolf DeVoon

    "...Make America Great Again. I'm interested in making American FREE again. Then the greatness will come automatically."Ron Paul

  20. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    Without sarcasm:





    His stance on protectionism and tariffs [which is function of raising government revenue] alone proves that he is the furthest thing from an anarchist, not to mention his stances on other governmental policy.
    Quote Originally Posted by CCTelander View Post
    Well, I WAS being sarcastic. Typically anarchists don’t advocate for authoritarian “solutions” at virtually every turn.
    He supports (in my subjective opinion) secession. In my book, that's all that is required to be an anarchist. Don't like his authoritarian positions? He's not requiring you to participate in them.
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Crenshaw 2024!!!!

    My pronouns are he/him/his

  21. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTexan View Post
    He supports (in my subjective opinion) secession. In my book, that's all that is required to be an anarchist. Don't like his authoritarian positions? He's not requiring you to participate in them.

    What does secession have to do with or relate to being an anarchist? Answer: it doesn't.

    One can be pro-secession and want/demand:

    1. to live in a left-wing commune where everybody shares the same bath salts [even the yucky half-used ones].

    2. to live in a right-wing authoritarian state where you are told who you can buy/sell from and who you can't, require papers-please to know who-from-who, and who is permitted to cross the street.

    If you wish to secede and live with @Swordsmyth under option 2., who am I to stop you? lol


    A secessionist can be an anarchist, but it doesn't equate to being one. @Swordsmyth is not an anarchist.
    Last edited by PAF; 05-18-2024 at 10:29 PM.
    ____________

    An Agorist Primer ~ Samuel Edward Konkin III (free PDF download)

    The End of All Evil ~ Jeremy Locke (free PDF download)



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  23. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    What does secession have to do with or relate to being an anarchist? Answer: it doesn't.
    As far as sovereignty is concerned (being "without ruler"), it's the only thing that matters.

    If you cannot secede, then you are not sovereign, and you are not "without ruler".

    So if you want to live in a world where people can choose to live without rulers, secession is absolutely core to that ideal.
    Last edited by TheTexan; 05-18-2024 at 10:52 PM.
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Crenshaw 2024!!!!

    My pronouns are he/him/his

  24. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTexan View Post
    As far as sovereignty is concerned (being "without ruler"), it's the only thing that matters.

    If you cannot secede, then you are not sovereign, and you are not "without ruler".

    So if you want to live in a world where people can choose to live without rulers, secession is absolutely core to that ideal.

    Thus:

    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    A secessionist can be an anarchist, but it doesn't equate to being one.
    ____________

    An Agorist Primer ~ Samuel Edward Konkin III (free PDF download)

    The End of All Evil ~ Jeremy Locke (free PDF download)

  25. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    Thus:



    Having the ability to secede is both necessary and sufficient to being sovereign.

    Thus, anyone who supports the right to secede, also supports the ideals necessary for anarchism to exist. That to me, is sufficient criteria to label someone as an "anarchist", regardless of whatever other labels they may choose to identify as.
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Crenshaw 2024!!!!

    My pronouns are he/him/his

  26. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTexan View Post
    Having the ability to secede is both necessary and sufficient to being sovereign.

    Thus, anyone who supports the right to secede, also supports the ideals necessary for anarchism to exist. That to me, is sufficient criteria to label someone as an "anarchist".

    We shall agree to absitively posolutely disagree
    ____________

    An Agorist Primer ~ Samuel Edward Konkin III (free PDF download)

    The End of All Evil ~ Jeremy Locke (free PDF download)

  27. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    We shall agree to absitively posolutely disagree
    The more important point was the statement immediately prior to the section you bolded; specifically, that he supports the ideals necessary for anarchism to exist.
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Crenshaw 2024!!!!

    My pronouns are he/him/his

  28. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTexan View Post
    The more important point was the statement immediately prior to the section you bolded; specifically, that he supports the ideals necessary for anarchism to exist.
    Yes, I agree with that part of it. But once secession is accomplished, do you pick Option 1., 2., [in Post #48], or the third option of having not 1. or 2.?

    I don't want to share bath salts, and I don't want to show my papers-please to cross the street. That makes me the true anarchist.
    ____________

    An Agorist Primer ~ Samuel Edward Konkin III (free PDF download)

    The End of All Evil ~ Jeremy Locke (free PDF download)

  29. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    Yes, I agree with that part of it. But once secession is accomplished, do you pick Option 1., 2., [in Post #48], or the third option of having not 1. or 2.?
    I would choose whichever was best for me at the time. If option 2 had a wonderful economy and a culture that I liked, I would probably choose that over a "less authoritarian" option that had an economy/culture I didn't like.

    That's what freedom really means, is to be able to choose your own path -- even if it is "authoritarian".

    I don't want to share bath salts, and I don't want to show my papers-please to cross the street. That makes me the true anarchist.
    I would never dare to question "true anarchy"
    Last edited by TheTexan; 05-18-2024 at 11:54 PM.
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Crenshaw 2024!!!!

    My pronouns are he/him/his

  30. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    He had four years. We were in World War II for three years and nine months.

    Suuuuuure he was trying to stop them.
    He ended wars during that time, and he made progress on others.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment



  31. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  32. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by CCTelander View Post
    Holy $#@!!

    You’re an anarchist!
    LOL
    No, I'm not.
    I don't believe in pipe dreams and try to implement them in real life regardless of the actual results.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  33. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTexan View Post
    He supports (in my subjective opinion) secession. In my book, that's all that is required to be an anarchist. Don't like his authoritarian positions? He's not requiring you to participate in them.
    I do support secession, but I have practical limits on it.
    I would not say I was an anarchist.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  34. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    I do support secession, but I have practical limits on it.
    Everything has practical limits; otherwise such a thing would be impractical.

    I would not say I was an anarchist.
    That's ok. You still are in my book
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Crenshaw 2024!!!!

    My pronouns are he/him/his

  35. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    He ended wars...
    Like a propagandist, you say that over and over and over, acting completely oblivious to the fact that you've been challenged on that b.s. repeatedly, and all you've ever been able to come up with is, even though the withdrawal from Afghanistan looked like a hasty put-up job that hadn't had five minutes' planning you don't think Biden could have done it so soon after taking office if Trump hadn't been laying groundwork for years. Which might not be as invalid an opinion as the facts on the ground make it look, but is still an opinion in any case.

    At least Zippy repeated only somewhat plausible-sounding opinions over and over hoping we'd come to take them as fact.

    You can at least drop that last S. You've never before even pretended to believe he ended more than the one.

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