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Thread: Defending Individual Liberty

  1. #1

    Defending Individual Liberty


    Mises Wire
    Wanjiru Njoya
    04/30/2024


    The ideal of individual liberty is perennially under attack not only from socialists, as one might logically expect, but also from conservatives who regard individualism as a form of selfishness. The ordinary meaning of selfishness is “caring only about what you want or need without any thought for the needs or wishes of other people,” and many conservatives see this as a major contributing factor in social decline. The conservative British journalist Nick Timothy attributes many social ills to selfishness, arguing that “our society has become more about ‘me’ than ‘we’,” leading to higher rates of crime, antisocial behavior, and a ballooning welfare state as selfish people try to take as much as possible from the public purse while contributing little or nothing to it.

    This school of conservative thought regards “excessive individualism” or “hyperindividualism” as a cause of social decay. Its proponents fear that the me-me-me society is partly to blame for the decline of Western civilization and therefore argue that defending individual liberty will only fuel further societal breakdown. As the family continues to be undermined by public policy, books like #MeFirst! A Manifesto for Female Selfishness, which promote “self-worship” and advise women not to have children, are seen as the logical result of individualism. Individualism is often referred to in this context as “rampant individualism” or “atomistic individualism,” which is associated with unhappy outcomes such as increasing loneliness and depression.

    Attributing social dysfunction to individualism explains much of the hostility with which many conservatives regard Ayn Rand’s attempt to extol the virtues of what she called selfishness. A review of Nick Timothy’s Rebuilding One Nation offers an example: “Eighties libertarianism has been left sulking on the margins of conservative policymaking for important reasons, and Timothy is ruthless in pointing out its deficiencies: its reputation for selfish individualism (reading Ayn Rand, Timothy tells us, left him ‘cold’) . . . Timothy ventures that individualism has shallow historical roots.”

    Being thus opposed to individualism, these conservatives promote communitarian values or various forms of social democracy. They seek to inculcate in citizens a sense of social responsibility by arguing that society matters more than the individual. This form of conservatism ultimately subordinates the individual to the state. This is clear from Timothy’s suggestion that “we are becoming a selfish society. It is the government’s job to tackle that,” which gives a primary role to government interventions designed to counter selfishness. Timothy suggests that “the family should be put at the heart of both welfare and tax policy,” “tax evasion should be countered, and tax havens closed down,” and “workplace rights and consumer protections [should be] enforced.” He argues that “the call of community is part of the conservative philosophy of paradoxes.”


    There’s No Such Thing as Society

    Margaret Thatcher is often wrongly depicted by communitarian conservatives, including the so-called libertarian conservative prime minister Boris Johnson when he locked down the United Kingdom in 2020, as a “market fundamentalist” who believed that there’s no such thing as society. As Victoria Hewson observes, “Mrs. Thatcher was not arguing that society does not exist,” a point often overlooked even by conservatives:

    "One might expect the quote to be taken out of context and used as a political weapon by opponents of the Conservative Party. But it is surprising that it has been mischaracterized by our Prime Minister [Boris Johnson], who would be well versed on the statement in full. “There is no such thing as society,” Mrs. Thatcher said. “There is [a] living tapestry of men and women and people and the beauty of that tapestry and the quality of our lives will depend upon how much each of us is prepared to take responsibility for ourselves and each of us prepared to turn round and help by our own efforts those who are unfortunate.”

    In his book In Defense of Freedom: A Conservative Credo, Frank S. Meyer acknowledges that many such conservatives, whom he refers to as “New Conservatives,” appeal to communitarian values because they see individualism as a threat to social cohesion, but he insists that it is only through defending individual liberty that free societies can prosper. He argues:

    "It is true, of course, that there would be no political or social institutions, nor any meaning to political inquiry, if men lived as single isolated individuals. To insist, as I do, that the individual is the criterion by which institutions and political theories should be judged is not to deny the immediate and obvious meaning of the phrase, “man is a social animal,” that is, that each man has a multifarious set of relationships with other men."

    The error made by New Conservatives, as Meyer explains it, lies in hypostatizing the “multifarious set of relationships” between individuals into an entity, society, which itself becomes the subject of rights and obligations owed by individuals to society or owed to the state as the embodiment of society. Meyer criticizes this form of conservativism for overlooking the importance of individual liberty. He describes the New Conservatives as collectivists, explaining that “their position is characterized by an organic view of society; by a subordination of the individual person to society.”

    The New Conservatives forget that society only has meaning as a basis for interaction between individuals, and it is through these individual interactions that free societies flourish. As Ludwig von Mises writes: “The concept of freedom always refers to social relations between men. . . . Society is essentially the mutual exchange of services.” Mises depicts individualism as the idea of individual liberty, meaning that the individual is free from state coercion:

    "The distinctive principle of Western social philosophy is individualism. It aims at the creation of a sphere in which the individual is free to think, to choose, and to act without being restrained by the interference of the social apparatus of coercion and oppression, the State. All the spiritual and material achievements of Western civilization were the result of the operation of this idea of liberty."

    Similarly, Friedrich von Hayek observed in “Individualism: True and False” that there is a right and wrong way to understand the meaning of “individualism” and that because rights vest in individuals, the defense of human liberty is always a defense of individual liberty and individual rights. It is important to defend individualism, correctly understood, because without a concept of individualism, it is all but impossible to express the importance of individual liberty.

    Meyer is right to warn conservatives that if the individual is subordinated to society, the individual becomes “a secondary being, whose dignity and rights become dependent upon the gift and grace of society or the state.” Attempting to subordinate individual rights to defend society ends up promoting statism, which in turn is a threat to liberty itself. As Meyer argues, “The proper end of political thought and action is the establishment and preservation of freedom.” Collectivism and statism do not preserve freedom but on the contrary undermine it. Timothy thinks that undermining freedom would somehow paradoxically lead to more freedom, as he argues that “by accepting constraints on our freedom, we end up freer and happier.” Here, Timothy falls into the error identified by Meyer, namely that collectivist conservatives fail to recognize that freedom cannot be attained through constraint and state coercion:

    "They would not or could not see the correlative to their fundamental philosophical position: acceptance of the moral authority derived from transcendent criteria of truth and good must be voluntary if it is to have meaning; if it is coerced by human force, it is meaningless. They were willing, if only the right standards were upheld, to accept an authoritarian structure of state and society. They were, at best, indifferent to freedom in the body politic at the worst, its enemies."



    https://mises.org/mises-wire/defendi...vidual-liberty
    ____________

    An Agorist Primer ~ Samuel Edward Konkin III (free PDF download)

    The End of All Evil ~ Jeremy Locke (free PDF download)



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  3. #2
    Nonsense.
    You don't have liberty without a liberty society and culture.
    The biggest predator in the jungle will just come smash you and everyone else.

    Individual liberty only exists in a society designed to provide as much of it as possible while also maintaining the society.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Nonsense.
    You don't have liberty without a liberty society and culture.
    The biggest predator in the jungle will just come smash you and everyone else.

    Individual liberty only exists in a society designed to provide as much of it as possible while also maintaining the society.
    Care to quote the part of that essay which contradicts that? Or is your every ejaculation of "nonsense!" complete nonsense?

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    Care to quote the part of that essay which contradicts that? Or is your every ejaculation of "nonsense!" complete nonsense?
    It's just a kneejerk reaction to any time someone mentions the words "individual liberty". SS gets triggered and chimes in with Orwellian doublespeak. As if the biggest predator in the jungle, the one with a monopoly on violence, isn't already coming in and smashing you and everyone else. Well, everyone but the ones who curry favors from the state.
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Nonsense.
    You don't have liberty without a liberty society and culture.
    The biggest predator in the jungle will just come smash you and everyone else.

    Individual liberty only exists in a society designed to provide as much of it as possible while also maintaining the society.

    Which has primacy, to which do you defer? Individual liberty? Or this “society designed to provide as much of it as possible”?
    Chris

    "Government ... does not exist of necessity, but rather by virtue of a tragic, almost comical combination of klutzy, opportunistic terrorism against sitting ducks whom it pretends to shelter, plus our childish phobia of responsibility, praying to be exempted from the hard reality of life on life's terms." Wolf DeVoon

    "...Make America Great Again. I'm interested in making American FREE again. Then the greatness will come automatically."Ron Paul

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by CCTelander View Post
    Which has primacy, to which do you defer? Individual liberty? Or this “society designed to provide as much of it as possible”?
    He answered that. As much liberty as possible while also maintaining the society. The power of the head psycho in charge clearly has primacy, because he or she will always consider himself to be "the society".

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    He answered that. As much liberty as possible while also maintaining the society. The power of the head psycho in charge clearly has primacy, because he or she will always consider himself to be "the society".

    Of course. I just want to “hear” him say it plainly and unambiguously, so that there’s no possible doubt or wiggle room.
    Chris

    "Government ... does not exist of necessity, but rather by virtue of a tragic, almost comical combination of klutzy, opportunistic terrorism against sitting ducks whom it pretends to shelter, plus our childish phobia of responsibility, praying to be exempted from the hard reality of life on life's terms." Wolf DeVoon

    "...Make America Great Again. I'm interested in making American FREE again. Then the greatness will come automatically."Ron Paul

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    Care to quote the part of that essay which contradicts that? Or is your every ejaculation of "nonsense!" complete nonsense?
    There’s No Such Thing as Society
    There most certainly is such a thing as a society, and it's a lot more than just a bunch of relationships between individuals, just as your body is a lot more than just a bunch of connections between cells.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by CCTelander View Post
    Which has primacy, to which do you defer? Individual liberty? Or this “society designed to provide as much of it as possible”?
    Both, because the individual has no liberty without the liberty oriented society.
    A threat to the society is a threat to every individual in it.
    A society that is any more restrictive of the individual than is necessary to maintain itself and individual liberty is a threat to the individual.
    They are inseparable.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Both, because the individual has no liberty without the liberty oriented society.
    Hate to burst your bubble, but the person who can avoid society and survive has the most liberty of all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    A threat to the society is a threat to every individual in it.
    You're so collectivist. Kentucky Fried Chicken is a threat to this society; just look around a crowd and see how many people weigh 300 pounds or more. But it's not a threat to me, unless some butterball patron of the chain loses his or her balance while standing next to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    A society that is any more restrictive of the individual than is necessary to maintain itself and individual liberty is a threat to the individual.
    They are inseparable.
    A society that is any more restrictive of the individual than necessary to maintain itself is a threat to the individual. Obviously. A society that is any more restrictive of the individual than necessary to maintain individual liberty is... A conundrum. What in the name of the Hubert H. Humphrey III Metrodome are you on about now? Try to make sense for a change.

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    Hate to burst your bubble, but the person who can avoid society and survive has the most liberty of all.
    Tell it to Randy Weaver, or the Branch Davidians.

    Some edge case where a random hermit manages to live in a cave in a National Park and, unlike most who try, doesn't get caught and charged for it, is not relevant for how society has to run.


    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    You're so collectivist. Kentucky Fried Chicken is a threat to this society; just look around a crowd and see how many people weigh 300 pounds or more. But it's not a threat to me, unless some butterball patron of the chain loses his or her balance while standing next to me.
    KFC is not a threat to the survival or nature of our society, it's just a threat to the health of individuals with no self control.
    Your irrelevant leftist logic has no power here.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Your irrelevant leftist logic has no power here.
    "Government protects rights" is the leftist "logic" here, and all the world can plainly see who's peddling it. Real conservatives know better than that.



    But then, you're from the RINO Party, home of the Orange RINO.

    Last edited by acptulsa; 05-05-2024 at 12:34 PM.

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    "Government protects rights" is the leftist "logic" here, and all the world can plainly see who's peddling it. Real conservatives know better than that.



    But then, you're from the RINO Party, home of the Orange RINO.

    TJ was not an anarchist, he understood government's role and participated in setting up our government and holding office in it.
    Government exists to protect your rights from foreign enemies and domestic criminals beyond what you can do to protect yourself.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    TJ... understood government's role...
    Government exists to protect... criminals...
    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Jefferson
    Sometimes it is said that man cannot be trusted with the government of himself. Can he, then be trusted with the government of others? Or have we found angels in the form of kings to govern him? Let history answer this question.
    He also said that if the federal government took over all the functions of all the state governments it would become the most corrupt government on the face of the earth, which it did. Yet you want to hand supervision of elections to these known criminals. So maybe you should read some of what the man wrote before you try to use him to promote or justify hare-brained schemes.

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    He also said that if the federal government took over all the functions of all the state governments it would become the most corrupt government on the face of the earth, which it did. Yet you want to hand supervision of elections to these known criminals. So maybe you should read some of what the man wrote before you try to use him to promote or justify hare-brained schemes.
    Really lame edited quote.

    And just as lame claim that TJ being in favor of limited government means he's an anarchist in spite of his participation in government.

    History laughs at you, and somewhere TJ does too.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Government exists to protect your rights from foreign enemies and domestic criminals beyond what you can do to protect yourself.

    Tell it to Randy Weaver, or the Branch Davidians.


    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    claim that TJ being in favor of limited government means he's an anarchist in spite of his participation in government.

    Tom Massie is one at his core
    Last edited by PAF; 05-06-2024 at 06:40 AM.
    ____________

    An Agorist Primer ~ Samuel Edward Konkin III (free PDF download)

    The End of All Evil ~ Jeremy Locke (free PDF download)



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    And just as lame claim that TJ being in favor of limited government means he's an anarchist in spite of his participation in government.
    Where? Who said that, besides you just now? Quote it.

    Lame is your constant barrage of strawmen. You can't argue with, well, anyone really, so you stick words in people's mouths and argue with those.

    Care to tell us now where you get the chutzpah to even talk about Jefferson out of one side of your mouth while calling for more power to be concentrated in Washington with the other side? Or are you creating these straw men to distract us from that hypocrisy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Really lame edited quote.
    Shall we let people judge for themselves if either the quote or the way I paraphrased it are lame? Or are you more interested in dictation than persuasion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Jefferson
    If ever this vast country is brought under a single government, it will be one of the most extensive corruption, indifferent and incapable of a wholesome care over so wide a spread of surface.
    Last edited by acptulsa; 05-06-2024 at 09:51 AM.

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Both, because the individual has no liberty without the liberty oriented society.
    A threat to the society is a threat to every individual in it.
    A society that is any more restrictive of the individual than is necessary to maintain itself and individual liberty is a threat to the individual.
    They are inseparable.

    So, as expected and predicted, jus t a bunch of nonsensical double talk apparently intended to obfuscate the fact that what you really mean is that “society” takes precedence over the individual.

    ‘The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few,” enforced by government guns.

    Seems to me that there’s a political philosophy that proposes exactly that already but I can’t quite recall what it is. Give me a minute. It’ll probably come to me…
    Chris

    "Government ... does not exist of necessity, but rather by virtue of a tragic, almost comical combination of klutzy, opportunistic terrorism against sitting ducks whom it pretends to shelter, plus our childish phobia of responsibility, praying to be exempted from the hard reality of life on life's terms." Wolf DeVoon

    "...Make America Great Again. I'm interested in making American FREE again. Then the greatness will come automatically."Ron Paul

  22. #19
    ..
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    ..

    Hey man! We gotta violate it to preserve it.
    Chris

    "Government ... does not exist of necessity, but rather by virtue of a tragic, almost comical combination of klutzy, opportunistic terrorism against sitting ducks whom it pretends to shelter, plus our childish phobia of responsibility, praying to be exempted from the hard reality of life on life's terms." Wolf DeVoon

    "...Make America Great Again. I'm interested in making American FREE again. Then the greatness will come automatically."Ron Paul

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Really lame edited quote.

    And just as lame claim that TJ being in favor of limited government means he's an anarchist in spite of his participation in government.

    History laughs at you, and somewhere TJ does too.
    So, basically, this is you making up a "lame claim" and attacking that instead of what was actually stated?? These orange-man tactics are getting pretty tired.
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    Tell it to Randy Weaver, or the Branch Davidians.
    Government gone wrong is not proof that government doesn't have a correct place.
    Or do you subscribe to the feminist idea that because some men rape all men are rapists?
    Government is to be condemned in those cases because it performed in opposition to its correct function.
    The individual or small group will be crushed by the large group every time, that's what those cases demonstrate, it's why we need a large group to help protect us and why it's doubly evil when what is supposed to be our large group turns on us.
    And if you get rid of government some large group hostile to you will impose itself as a government.






    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    Tom Massie is one at his core
    That's an indictment of Massie and not Jefferson if true.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    The individual or small group will be crushed by the large group every time, that's what those cases demonstrate, it's why we need a large group to help protect us and why it's doubly evil when what is supposed to be our large group turns on us.
    Government isn't a larger group than us. It's a small group we make the mistake of giving money to for guns. When it becomes a large group is when it is being grown too big for its britches, and that's when it's most evil.

    You need to read some history, if it's not too big a strain on your lips. People get killed by their own governments on a wholesale basis. From Turkish Armenians to German Jews to the Russian Orthodox to the Tutsis nearly a hundred million died in the twentieth century alone to demonstrate to us that the enemy within is far, far more dangerous than the enemy outside. But some people are too hidebound by tradition, or too caught up in the dream of someday becoming tyrants themselves, to accept the facts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Globalist View Post
    Last edited by acptulsa; 05-07-2024 at 06:40 AM.

  27. #24


    Now who's silly enough to say the border patrol isn't a government bennie?



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  29. #25

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    Government isn't a larger group than us. It's a small group we make the mistake of giving money to for guns. When it becomes a large group is when it is being grown too big for its britches, and that's when it's most evil.

    You need to read some history, if it's not too big a strain on your lips. People get killed by their own governments on a wholesale basis. From Turkish Armenians to German Jews to the Russian Orthodox to the Tutsis nearly a hundred million died in the twentieth century alone to demonstrate to us that the enemy within is far, far more dangerous than the enemy outside. But some people are too hidebound by tradition, or too caught up in the dream of someday becoming tyrants themselves, to accept the facts.
    Government is a larger group than any of the smaller groups that exist naturally without it, it's how the many small family and local community size groups work together and create a larger group than any of them individually.

    There is a size of government that is too big, but its purpose is to be larger than any of the smaller groups that join under its umbrella, if it wasn't it would be of no use at all.

    A corrupted government is indeed dangerous, but the reason outsiders don't either slaughter people wholesale (as has happened throughout history) or conquer them and become a tyrannical government that then slaughters "it's own" people is because we have our own governments.

    Had the people slaughtered by "their own" governments had a government of their own instead of being ruled by hostile enemies they would not have been slaughtered.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post


    Now who's silly enough to say the border patrol isn't a government bennie?
    Another non-Anarchist who is not speaking of the proper functions of government to defend against enemies and criminals foreign and domestic.

    Nobody is going to buy your twisting of his words.

    And thank you for making it clear you want to open the border wide to allow the foreign invasion and conquest.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    And thank you for making it clear you want to open the border wide to allow the foreign invasion and conquest.
    You got that from me pointing out that the border patrol is government?

    When you take these flying leaps, you know, you leave logic far, far behind. The truth of the matter, too.

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    You got that from me pointing out that the border patrol is government?

    When you take these flying leaps, you know, you leave logic far, far behind. The truth of the matter, too.
    People are not the fools you think they are.

    You made that point after arguing that the government doesn't exist to protect people from foreign threats and posting a quote you were twisting to say government shouldn't provide any services to the people. (because as an anarchist you don't want it to exist to serve its legitimate functions)

    You are clearly saying the Thomas agrees with you that the BP is a government service that shouldn't exist.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    It's just a kneejerk reaction to any time someone mentions the words "individual liberty". SS gets triggered and chimes in with Orwellian doublespeak. As if the biggest predator in the jungle, the one with a monopoly on violence, isn't already coming in and smashing you and everyone else. Well, everyone but the ones who curry favors from the state.
    Amash>Trump

    "Patriotism should come from loving thy neighbor, not from worshiping graven images" - Ironman77

    "ideas have the potential of being more powerful than any army....The concept of personal sovereignty was pulled screaming from the ether into this reality by the force of men believing in a self evident truth, that men are meant to be free." - The Northbreather

    "Trump is the security blanket of aggrieved white men aged 18-60." - Pinoy

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