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Thread: The 4th Amendment & warrantless searches

  1. #1

    The 4th Amendment & warrantless searches

    SPLIT FROM: FISA reauthorization & Section 702 warrantless surveillance

    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Banana View Post
    The fourth Amendment does not require a warrant for searches.

    Here is what it actually says:
    The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
    Last edited by Occam's Banana; 04-21-2024 at 01:22 AM. Reason: added "SPLIT FROM" link
    There is nothing to fear from globalism, free trade and a single worldwide currency, but a globalism where free trade is competitively subsidized by each nation, a continuous trade war is dictated by the WTO, and the single currency is pure fiat, fear is justified. That type of globalism is destined to collapse into economic despair, inflationism and protectionism and managed by resurgent militant nationalism.
    Ron Paul
    Congressional Record (March 13, 2001)



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  3. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Invisible Man View Post
    The fourth Amendment does not require a warrant for searches.

    Here is what it actually says:
    I actually think that's exactly what it is saying. Specifying "against unreasonable searches and seizures" implies there are some that are reasonable, hence follows the part about a warrant.
    'Here......Once again, we have gathered in the depths of a small Cotswold town called Stow-On-the Wold, among the town and country folk, we can witness the lesser spotted Karens, going about other peoples business, in their natural habitat'.......

    -In the voice of Sir David Attenborough

  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by susano View Post
    I actually think that's exactly what it is saying. Specifying "against unreasonable searches and seizures" implies there are some that are reasonable, hence follows the part about a warrant.
    It does imply that there are some reasonable ones. But nowhere does it make the issuance of a warrant an inviolable criterion for a reasonable search or seizure. The way it separates those two points implies that some reasonable searches and seizures can happen without warrants. The criteria for the issuance of warrants only applies to cases where warrants are issued.
    There is nothing to fear from globalism, free trade and a single worldwide currency, but a globalism where free trade is competitively subsidized by each nation, a continuous trade war is dictated by the WTO, and the single currency is pure fiat, fear is justified. That type of globalism is destined to collapse into economic despair, inflationism and protectionism and managed by resurgent militant nationalism.
    Ron Paul
    Congressional Record (March 13, 2001)

  5. #4
    He'll keep that silly $#@! going for hours if you encourage him.

    You've been warned.

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    He'll keep that silly $#@! going for hours if you encourage him.

    You've been warned.
    lol

    I was almost sucked in.
    'Here......Once again, we have gathered in the depths of a small Cotswold town called Stow-On-the Wold, among the town and country folk, we can witness the lesser spotted Karens, going about other peoples business, in their natural habitat'.......

    -In the voice of Sir David Attenborough

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Invisible Man View Post
    The fourth Amendment does not require a warrant for searches.

    Here is what it actually says:

    The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
    That's not what it says to me.

    It says to me that a search without a valid warrant, is, prima facie an "unreasonable search".
    “It is not true that all creeds and cultures are equally assimilable in a First World nation born of England, Christianity, and Western civilization. Race, faith, ethnicity and history leave genetic fingerprints no ‘proposition nation’ can erase." -- Pat Buchanan

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    That's not what it says to me.

    It says to me that a search without a valid warrant, is, prima facie an "unreasonable search".
    If only it actually said that.
    There is nothing to fear from globalism, free trade and a single worldwide currency, but a globalism where free trade is competitively subsidized by each nation, a continuous trade war is dictated by the WTO, and the single currency is pure fiat, fear is justified. That type of globalism is destined to collapse into economic despair, inflationism and protectionism and managed by resurgent militant nationalism.
    Ron Paul
    Congressional Record (March 13, 2001)

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Invisible Man View Post
    If only it actually said that.
    Keyword: “and” cited 3 times. There is no if, except, but or maybe.

    and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause… and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Invisible Man View Post
    The fourth Amendment does not require a warrant for searches.

    Here is what it actually says:
    I guess you are Illiterate Man.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

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    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

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    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

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    A Zero Hedge comment

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Originally Posted by Invisible ManThe fourth Amendment does not require a warrant for searches.

    Here is what it actually says:



    I guess you are Illiterate Man.
    Let's see what it really says, to wit:

    "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

    It opens by acknowledging (not granting) one's just claim to be secure in one's property†... imagine that, against "unreasonable" search and seizure. In this day we almost reflexively retort with "well, what does 'unreasonable' really mean?" Now if we recall the old quote by Jefferson that quipped to the effect that free men must perforce be devoid of ignorance, and of good moral fabric, it can be justifiably stated that "reasonable" in this case was abundantly clear to the Framers, as well as the typical dullard of the time. it was obvious, as it now is to anyone with a spark of intelligence. They were, after all, living in the Age of Reason. Asking so pedantic a question as to the meaning of "reasonable" serves not so much to indicate our diligence of habit (though it might), as our lack of smarts on a question concerning an issue so basic, that even the most sadly ill-educated among us should still know the answer, even if only able to sense it tacitly.

    I maintain that "reasonable" holds a meaning that is intuitively clear, obvious, and correct and that those who ask such questions are likely attempting to throw others off the scent of the truth. This isn't rocket surgery. Small children, if asked about such things, will show a clear and sufficient understanding of the notion that evidently escapes the grasp of far too many adults.

    It is clear to me what it means. It should be equally so to the vast and overwhelming majority of Americans, and dare I say the rest of the human world as well.

    It means that, barring very convincing evidence to suggest that a man has committed a FELONY, which is the only class of true crimes the commission of which could be a reasonable justification for the issuance of a warrant intended to interfere in his acknowledged right that says he is not to be violated in his privacy, nor is he to be made victim of theft and other crimes by the "state". Once again we see that this is not a matter of rocket surgery. no college degree needed, but just some basic sense.

    Therefore, the semantic meat of the 4A is to acknowledge the preexistent and inherent right of people not just to property, but to explicitly acknowledge and hold sacred their natural and inherent moral immunity to "state" predation and other unwelcome and, dare I say it... unwarranted (ARF ARF ARF) interferences with one's private property and affairs (which are also property). The "state" MAY NOT. They are restricted; banned; circumscribed; bounded; limited; forbidden; prohibited; proscribed; inhibited; disallowed; debarred; embargoed.

    The 4A then goes on to say that the only way a man's acknowledged and guaranteed right to, and innate security of, his property may be provisionally countervailed is if a warrant to a very specific effect and purpose has been issued by a valid authority to that end. It further states, if in a shorthand manner, that such warrants issue but on sworn affirmation of the veracity of the evidence offered as justification for the violation of the rights in question here. I will note that where it 4A fails is to specify the draconian punishments to be meted to all agents of the "state" for all willful failures to present to an issuing authority the truth of the evidence they present, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, pure as the driven snows. Similar punishments should be meted to those who, through incompetence or negligence, have caused warrants to issue which are proven unjustifiable. But I digress, pardon me please.

    And so, to claim that no warrant is required is in fact and indeed gravely mistaken. The requirement is made clear by implication and cannot be denied, save through ignorance or malevolent intention.


    † Yes ladies and gentlemen, the 4A implicitly acknowledges the right to private property, a notion that any child in possession of an IQ in the positive integers will readily grasp and acknowledge.
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  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    Keyword: “and” cited 3 times. There is no if, except, but or maybe.

    and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause… and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
    Exactly. Two separate things: 1. freedom from unreasonable searches and seizures, and 2. certain prerequisites to be met for warrants to be issued.
    There is nothing to fear from globalism, free trade and a single worldwide currency, but a globalism where free trade is competitively subsidized by each nation, a continuous trade war is dictated by the WTO, and the single currency is pure fiat, fear is justified. That type of globalism is destined to collapse into economic despair, inflationism and protectionism and managed by resurgent militant nationalism.
    Ron Paul
    Congressional Record (March 13, 2001)

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Invisible Man View Post
    Exactly. Two separate things: 1. freedom from unreasonable searches and seizures, and 2. certain prerequisites to be met for warrants to be issued.
    Any search without a warrant IS unreasonable.
    The purpose of the warrant is to prove reasonableness.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Any search without a warrant IS unreasonable.
    The purpose of the warrant is to prove reasonableness.
    A search is always unreasonable until government says it is reasonable, then it's always reasonable?
    Last edited by Occam's Banana; 04-21-2024 at 01:09 AM. Reason: edit after thread split

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    A search is always unreasonable until government says it is reasonable, then it's always reasonable?
    Nobody said warrants were always granted reasonably, but we do have to have them to enforce the law when the search is reasonable.
    Last edited by Occam's Banana; 04-21-2024 at 01:11 AM. Reason: edit after thread split
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Any search without a warrant IS unreasonable.
    The purpose of the warrant is to prove reasonableness.
    It would be nice if the Constitution said what you say in your first sentence. It doesn't logically follow from your second one.
    There is nothing to fear from globalism, free trade and a single worldwide currency, but a globalism where free trade is competitively subsidized by each nation, a continuous trade war is dictated by the WTO, and the single currency is pure fiat, fear is justified. That type of globalism is destined to collapse into economic despair, inflationism and protectionism and managed by resurgent militant nationalism.
    Ron Paul
    Congressional Record (March 13, 2001)

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Invisible Man View Post
    It would be nice if the Constitution said what you say in your first sentence. It doesn't logically follow from your second one.
    Feel free to post a link which matches your novel reading of the 4th amendment.
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul

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    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Invisible Man View Post
    It would be nice if the Constitution said what you say in your first sentence. It doesn't logically follow from your second one.
    It does, you are as pathetic as the people who claim the 2ndA is about state militias because the first part states that a well regulated militia (well known to be composed of every able bodied man) was one of the purposes.

    The 4thA states that the people are to be free of unreasonable searches, it then states the requirements for reasonable searches, the requirements are all about warrants.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Invisible Man View Post
    It would be nice if the Constitution said what you say in your first sentence. It doesn't logically follow from your second one.
    It absolutely follows. The entire purpose of requiring warrants is to ensure that the 4th Amendment is obeyed. Otherwise, the police can (and will) just make up any ol' yarn for why they "needed" to perform a search. It took 203 years for them to finally get a functioning bypass-switch installed to switch off the 4th Amendment. That bypass switch is FISA, Patriot Act, Military Commissions Act, etc. The legislation had been written in the decade prior to 9/11 and was basically just sitting on congressional desks, a dead, tyrannical bill that could never pass. Until 9/11 happened. Then it was all passed, and much more besides. "Warrantless search" is a contradiction of the Constitution on its face. No "constitutional scholarship" is required. If an "unusual execution" bill was passed permitting drawing-and-quartering as a method of execution, no scholarship would be required to understand the contradiction. It's a contradiction of the Constitution on its face.
    Jer. 11:18-20. "The Kingdom of God has come upon you." -- Matthew 12:28

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by ClaytonB View Post
    It absolutely follows. The entire purpose of requiring warrants is to ensure that the 4th Amendment is obeyed. Otherwise, the police can (and will) just make up any ol' yarn for why they "needed" to perform a search. It took 203 years for them to finally get a functioning bypass-switch installed to switch off the 4th Amendment. That bypass switch is FISA, Patriot Act, Military Commissions Act, etc. The legislation had been written in the decade prior to 9/11 and was basically just sitting on congressional desks, a dead, tyrannical bill that could never pass. Until 9/11 happened. Then it was all passed, and much more besides. "Warrantless search" is a contradiction of the Constitution on its face. No "constitutional scholarship" is required. If an "unusual execution" bill was passed permitting drawing-and-quartering as a method of execution, no scholarship would be required to understand the contradiction. It's a contradiction of the Constitution on its face.
    Nothing you said is true. Courts have always allowed some searches without warrants.

    Courts have issued varying opinions about what constitutes reasonable and when warrants are required. But at no point have they held that there were absolutely no cases in which the Constitution allowed searches without warrants. This is not some new development of the 21st century.
    There is nothing to fear from globalism, free trade and a single worldwide currency, but a globalism where free trade is competitively subsidized by each nation, a continuous trade war is dictated by the WTO, and the single currency is pure fiat, fear is justified. That type of globalism is destined to collapse into economic despair, inflationism and protectionism and managed by resurgent militant nationalism.
    Ron Paul
    Congressional Record (March 13, 2001)

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Invisible Man View Post
    Nothing you said is true. Courts have always allowed some searches without warrants.

    Courts have issued varying opinions about what constitutes reasonable and when warrants are required. But at no point have they held that there were absolutely no cases in which the Constitution allowed searches without warrants. This is not some new development of the 21st century.
    "Courts have always allowed some searches without warrants"

    Wrong. Like every other erosion of the bill of rights, it has occurred slowly over time. Like the supposed "shouting fire in a crowded theater" exception to the 1st amendment, "hot pursuit" of a criminal was used to justify an exception to the 4th.

    Erosion over time does not address the original intent, or meaning of the 4th amendment.

    That being said, what is your point? Do you support FISA with no warrant requirements? Do you support violations of the 4th amendment as long as it is deemed "reasonable" by operatives of the current regime?
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul

    Proponent of real science.
    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    It does, you are as pathetic as the people who claim the 2ndA is about state militias because the first part states that a well regulated militia (well known to be composed of every able bodied man) was one of the purposes.

    The 4thA states that the people are to be free of unreasonable searches, it then states the requirements for reasonable searches, the requirements are all about warrants.
    Coincidently, that same thought occurred to me. During the recent gun control debate between David Hogg and Spike Cohen, Hogg made up a new, novel original intent of the 2nd Amendment.

    He stated that the 2nd was about militias, and the "well-regulated" portion meant that government had mandated that every able bodied man between 18-60 have a gun, and that to "regulate" this, government could enter anyone's home at any time to verify and inspect their guns.
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul

    Proponent of real science.
    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    "Courts have always allowed some searches without warrants"

    Wrong. Like every other erosion of the bill of rights, it has occurred slowly over time. Like the supposed "shouting fire in a crowded theater" exception to the 1st amendment, "hot pursuit" of a criminal was used to justify an exception to the 4th.

    Erosion over time does not address the original intent, or meaning of the 4th amendment.

    That being said, what is your point? Do you support FISA with no warrant requirements? Do you support violations of the 4th amendment as long as it is deemed "reasonable" by operatives of the current regime?
    Are you saying that there are court cases that held that the Constitution does not allow any searches at all without warrants?

    Which cases?
    There is nothing to fear from globalism, free trade and a single worldwide currency, but a globalism where free trade is competitively subsidized by each nation, a continuous trade war is dictated by the WTO, and the single currency is pure fiat, fear is justified. That type of globalism is destined to collapse into economic despair, inflationism and protectionism and managed by resurgent militant nationalism.
    Ron Paul
    Congressional Record (March 13, 2001)

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    That being said, what is your point? Do you support FISA with no warrant requirements? Do you support violations of the 4th amendment as long as it is deemed "reasonable" by operatives of the current regime?
    No. Of course not.

    My points are: 1. that the Constitution is not the friend of liberty that libertarians often portray it to be; and 2. when stating matters of fact, we should get the facts right whether we like them or not.
    There is nothing to fear from globalism, free trade and a single worldwide currency, but a globalism where free trade is competitively subsidized by each nation, a continuous trade war is dictated by the WTO, and the single currency is pure fiat, fear is justified. That type of globalism is destined to collapse into economic despair, inflationism and protectionism and managed by resurgent militant nationalism.
    Ron Paul
    Congressional Record (March 13, 2001)

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Invisible Man View Post
    ... Courts have issued varying opinions...
    Who cares. People with an agenda spout the most outrageously false things imaginable. This proves nothing. When I say it is unconstitutional on its face, what I am specifically pointing out is that judicial review on these specific points is completely irrelevant except as a matter of procedure. The unconstitutionality and inherent contradiction of "reasonable warrantless search" is obvious on its face. It makes as much sense as a square-circle, a dry-ocean or an honest fiat money.

    Nothing you said is true. Courts have always allowed some searches without warrants.
    The other reasons under which searches can occur are (a) consent of the individual to be searched (or owner of the house, if a house), (b) the issuance of a warrant for arrest (since the individual will be searched upon being arrested), and (d) "exigent circumstances", meaning, the police believed a crime was ongoing or about to occur, or destruction of evidence of a crime, and so on. Even these carve-outs are playing with fire when it comes to the 4th Amendment and I can see no reason why any of them must be permitted to exist, particularly in the post-911 world. Since the tyrants are "playing to the edges of the box" they are given to play in, as Hayden put it, behaving like leashed dogs, then they must be treated like dogs and be leashed and punished accordingly. Since they insist on abusing the leash, then let them be chained to the stake. Let's impose the fullest possible meaning of the 4th Amendment. Let We The People "play to the edges of the box" for once, where the "box" in this case is the Constitution, you know, the supreme law of the land. Or maybe the Federales would like to deny that that is what the Constitution is. Which is fine by me. Their funeral.
    Jer. 11:18-20. "The Kingdom of God has come upon you." -- Matthew 12:28



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by ClaytonB View Post
    Who cares.
    In your previous post, you cared.
    There is nothing to fear from globalism, free trade and a single worldwide currency, but a globalism where free trade is competitively subsidized by each nation, a continuous trade war is dictated by the WTO, and the single currency is pure fiat, fear is justified. That type of globalism is destined to collapse into economic despair, inflationism and protectionism and managed by resurgent militant nationalism.
    Ron Paul
    Congressional Record (March 13, 2001)

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by ClaytonB View Post
    Even these carve-outs are playing with fire when it comes to the 4th Amendment and I can see no reason why any of them must be permitted to exist.
    Be that as it may, the Constitution doesn't explicitly prohibit them.
    There is nothing to fear from globalism, free trade and a single worldwide currency, but a globalism where free trade is competitively subsidized by each nation, a continuous trade war is dictated by the WTO, and the single currency is pure fiat, fear is justified. That type of globalism is destined to collapse into economic despair, inflationism and protectionism and managed by resurgent militant nationalism.
    Ron Paul
    Congressional Record (March 13, 2001)

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Invisible Man View Post
    Be that as it may, the Constitution doesn't explicitly prohibit them.
    Nor does it mandate them. So if WTP start playing by Hayden-rules, that's doomsday for the MIC. I am eager to play by their rules, they only need say the word...
    Jer. 11:18-20. "The Kingdom of God has come upon you." -- Matthew 12:28

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    Coincidently, that same thought occurred to me. During the recent gun control debate between David Hogg and Spike Cohen, Hogg made up a new, novel original intent of the 2nd Amendment.

    He stated that the 2nd was about militias, and the "well-regulated" portion meant that government had mandated that every able bodied man between 18-60 have a gun, and that to "regulate" this, government could enter anyone's home at any time to verify and inspect their guns.
    We should agree to that, with the stipulation that you have to show up for Muster from time to time to have your Government provided gun inspected.
    Muster day is how the Founding Fathers did it and Congress is mandated to arm the militia.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    We should agree to that, with the stipulation that you have to show up for Muster from time to time to have your Government provided gun inspected.
    Muster day is how the Founding Fathers did it and Congress is mandated to arm the militia.
    Hmmm. Never heard about Congress (govt) arming the public. Where do I get my modern military arm?

    (I do recall the M1 Garand program, but I believe that expired...)

    Anyway, going way off topic...
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul

    Proponent of real science.
    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    Hmmm. Never heard about Congress (govt) arming the public. Where do I get my modern military arm?

    (I do recall the M1 Garand program, but I believe that expired...)

    Anyway, going way off topic...
    A1S8 ...To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia...

    They have never properly fulfilled the mandate because they don't want to empower the people as they are mandated to do.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

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