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Thread: Thought experiment to show why protectionism damages the economy

  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by CCTelander View Post
    Another good, short read on the topic.



    htthttps://mises.org/mises-wire/immo...tectionismp://
    Bunk.
    Foreign companies do lower their prices and absorb the taxes, Americans keep their high paying jobs instead of being reduced to the lowest common denominator of slave labor, and tariffs are the best kind of tax with the least detrimental aspects and a few beneficial aspects, and if you buy domestic you don't pay them so they are the easiest taxes to avoid.

    Your stale old arguments created by simpletons or liars fail.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment



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  3. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by CCTelander View Post
    Oh! You’re THAT ONE!

    Sadly for you, once again, I too have radically changed my position on this over the years, based upon actual evidence though. You see, back in the 1960s, 70s, and 80s I was an America Firster and believed vehemently in protectionism. Only once I started actually studying a little about the topic of economics, and also finally realized how morally reprehensible protectionism actually is, did I actually embrace free trade.

    You should refrain from making those kinds of assumptions about people. You would look less foolish if you did.
    I'm sorry to hear that you have reverse intelligence and unlearned.
    I had given you credit for simply falling for the globalibertarian dogma to begin with and then sticking to it.
    And you are the foolish one who made assumptions about me so it's not so foolish of me to return the favor because you have a tendency to project.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  4. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    ...and also with state tariffs instead of income taxes...
    Step one: Institute a new state tax that involves everyone stopping at every state border and potentially standing a search.

    Step two: ??

    Step three: ??

    Step four: Suddenly, magically, there's no federal income tax.

    Slick.

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    This is one of those topics where Ron drank the Kool-aid and is flat wrong.
    Kool Aid isn't as bad for you as that sap which oozes out of the treehouse.
    Last edited by acptulsa; 04-14-2024 at 06:43 AM.

  5. #124
    Just gonna add +1 to everything Swordsmyth has said so far.

    The United States is large enough that trade with other countries isn't necessary. Any "benefit" to be gained from international trade is short-term and short-sighted and ignores the economic and cultural costs associated with it. Nothing is free in this world, and if you think you're saving 20 cents on the dollar by simply having China make your stuff, you're not.

    And yes, free trade does lead to a one world government. Which is ideally what we'd like to avoid.
    Last edited by TheTexan; 04-14-2024 at 07:01 AM.
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Crenshaw 2024!!!!

    My pronouns are he/him/his

  6. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    You have no idea how to secure as much liberty as possible.
    Congratulations. You are now on the same side of the debate as Phil Donohue.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTexan View Post
    And yes, free trade does lead to a one world government. Which is ideally what we'd like to avoid.
    You too, Phil.

    In order to avoid centralized control we must ratchet up centralized control. Because if we don't, somebody else will. Never mind two hundred years of history wherein everybody else ratched up control, and our free market kicked all their asses at once.

    Lord have mercy on us.

    https://twitter.com/ian_mckelvey/sta...92299102453961





    You people are just like Teh Left. You use "people can't be trusted" as an excuse to trust the very worst people out there.
    Last edited by acptulsa; 04-14-2024 at 10:34 AM.

  7. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Bunk.
    Foreign companies do lower their prices and absorb the taxes, Americans keep their high paying jobs instead of being reduced to the lowest common denominator of slave labor, and tariffs are the best kind of tax with the least detrimental aspects and a few beneficial aspects, and if you buy domestic you don't pay them so they are the easiest taxes to avoid.

    Your stale old arguments created by simpletons or liars fail.

    Is this the kind of delusional crap you “learned” from Ian Fletcher’s book? That big hearted foreign companies, in response to your attempts to mulct them, simply roll over and take it? And not even just take it, they go even further acting like true philanthropists and LOWER their prices just cause they have such charitable hearts? Wow, that’s some real Pollyanna $#@! right there. It defies common sense and reason.

    I hate to break it to you but out here in the real world, where real people are interacting, that is not what actually happens. Let’s take a look at one real life example to illustrate.

    Back in 1986 US officials, at the prompting of industry lobbyists no doubt, decided that the American red cedar shake and shingle industry needed a bit of “protection” so they slapped a 35% tariff on red cedar shakes and shingles. At the time the supply of red cedar here in the US was extremely limited so we were importing a lot of our shakes and shingles from Canada. Well the high tariff devastated the Canadian shake and shingle industry. Many Canadian workers lost their jobs. But hey, those are Canadians, right? Who gives a $#@! about Canadians? Let ‘‘em starve, right?

    It turns out that Canadians gave a $#@! about other Canadians losing THEIR high paying jobs, so Canada retaliated by slapping high tariffs on American computer parts, Christmas trees, tea bags and cider. Naturally that had a negative impact on those American industries. But back to cedar shakes and shingles.

    Back here in the US there were a few people who held long-term contracts to purchase cedar at pre-tariff prices. Those guys became millionaires overnight.

    Unfortunately, the US shake and shingle industry didn’t fare quite as well. In response to the high tariff they raised their prices sharply, as is the case usually in response to high tariffs. However, instead of just bending over and taking it US builders simply scorned shakes and shingles and shifted over to tile and asphalt roofing. Within 2 years the entire US shake and shingle market had contracted by 45%. I imagine THAT cost a few people their jobs.

    The whole fiasco had one other major effect. Remember that US supplies of red cedar at the time were extremely limited. Well this whole fiasco incentivized US timber companies to deplete those supplies at a vastly accelerated rate, in order to try and capitalize on the higher prices.

    THAT’s what tariffs do. THAT’s how real people, out here in the real world respond to them. Not in some delusional, Pollyanna way like you describe. Real effects from the real world.
    Last edited by CCTelander; 04-14-2024 at 11:26 AM.
    Chris

    "Government ... does not exist of necessity, but rather by virtue of a tragic, almost comical combination of klutzy, opportunistic terrorism against sitting ducks whom it pretends to shelter, plus our childish phobia of responsibility, praying to be exempted from the hard reality of life on life's terms." Wolf DeVoon

    "...Make America Great Again. I'm interested in making American FREE again. Then the greatness will come automatically."Ron Paul

  8. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    I'm sorry to hear that you have reverse intelligence and unlearned.
    I had given you credit for simply falling for the globalibertarian dogma to begin with and then sticking to it.
    And you are the foolish one who made assumptions about me so it's not so foolish of me to return the favor because you have a tendency to project.

    ROTFL!
    Chris

    "Government ... does not exist of necessity, but rather by virtue of a tragic, almost comical combination of klutzy, opportunistic terrorism against sitting ducks whom it pretends to shelter, plus our childish phobia of responsibility, praying to be exempted from the hard reality of life on life's terms." Wolf DeVoon

    "...Make America Great Again. I'm interested in making American FREE again. Then the greatness will come automatically."Ron Paul

  9. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTexan View Post
    Just gonna add +1 to everything Swordsmyth has said so far.

    The United States is large enough that trade with other countries isn't necessary. Any "benefit" to be gained from international trade is short-term and short-sighted and ignores the economic and cultural costs associated with it. Nothing is free in this world, and if you think you're saving 20 cents on the dollar by simply having China make your stuff, you're not.

    And yes, free trade does lead to a one world government. Which is ideally what we'd like to avoid.

    Tell that to the American poor and middle class who at the moment are burdened by levels of price inflation that are really putting a bite on them. I’m sure they’d be delighted to pay even higher prices for the goods and services they need every day in order to accommodate the protectionist tariffs you and Swordy delude yourselves into believing will help them out. “In the long run,” of course. If they survive intact to see it.
    Chris

    "Government ... does not exist of necessity, but rather by virtue of a tragic, almost comical combination of klutzy, opportunistic terrorism against sitting ducks whom it pretends to shelter, plus our childish phobia of responsibility, praying to be exempted from the hard reality of life on life's terms." Wolf DeVoon

    "...Make America Great Again. I'm interested in making American FREE again. Then the greatness will come automatically."Ron Paul



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  11. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by CCTelander View Post
    Tell that to the American poor and middle class who at the moment are burdened by levels of price inflation that are really putting a bite on them. Iím sure theyíd be delighted to pay even higher prices for the goods and services they need every day in order to accommodate the protectionist tariffs you and Swordy delude yourselves into believing will help them out. ďIn the long run,Ē of course. If they survive intact to see it.
    And the additional dollar devaluation that will result from states getting federal grants to pay for their new interstate commerce customs inspectors. Don't forget that part.

    That's another thing Republicans agree with Democrats about -- moar gubmint jerbz.

    Of course, the new unconstitutional interstate tariffs should pay those new government employees to stop you on both ends of Rhode Island and rifle through your underwear. But all the politicians know that if they give that money to some contractor instead, they'll get a kickpaign backtribution.
    Last edited by acptulsa; 04-14-2024 at 11:51 AM.

  12. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    And the additional dollar devaluation that will result from states getting federal grants to pay for their new interstate commerce customs inspectors. Don't forget that part.

    That's another thing Republicans agree with Democrats about -- moar gubmint jerbz.

    Good call. Can’t wait to pay even more for everything so a bunch more indolent dullards can be made safe and secure in their brand new government jobs!
    Chris

    "Government ... does not exist of necessity, but rather by virtue of a tragic, almost comical combination of klutzy, opportunistic terrorism against sitting ducks whom it pretends to shelter, plus our childish phobia of responsibility, praying to be exempted from the hard reality of life on life's terms." Wolf DeVoon

    "...Make America Great Again. I'm interested in making American FREE again. Then the greatness will come automatically."Ron Paul

  13. #131
    Here are a couple more quick ones:

    Kidney stones are a pretty common medical issue here in the US. Every year about a quarter million people are hospitalized for kidney stone treatment. In 1985, 1149 died due to complications arising from kidney stones.

    Well, back in 1984 a West German company had developed-ed a new lithotripter machine that could be used to destroy kidney stones from outside the body using shock waves. The procedure is much less invasive, painful and dangerous than then traditional kidney stone surgery.

    In order to “protect” US medical equipment manufacturers, not a single one of which was even contemplating a machine like the West German lithotripter at the time, the US slapped a hefty tariff on the machine. One hospital, upon importing just one lithotripter paid a tariff, just the tariff of $189,964.32?!? As one might imagine this insane tax discouraged a great many from quickly adopting this life-saving technology and as a result there were many unnecessary deaths and many many more patients had to endure the much more painful and invasive traditional treatments.

    Another:

    Back in the day, at the behest of the US textile industry, a tariff of 33% had been levied on a special particularly dense wool blend fabric that was used to make protective garments for firefighters. In 1988 Rep. Richard Roe had proposed to reduce this tariff. In spite of the fact that no US company even produced such a wool blend fabric the American Textile Manufacturers Institute, an industry lobbying group, strenuously objected to reducing the tariff on the grounds that some American company at some future date might decide to start such production if the tariff remained higher. Apparently, a few more singed or dead firemen was considered a small price to pay to allow for such a possibility.

    These kinds of situations happen a lot. So often, in fact, that some people have coined a phrase to describe it. That phrase is “Death by Tariff.”

    Real effects from the real world.
    Last edited by CCTelander; 04-14-2024 at 01:06 PM.
    Chris

    "Government ... does not exist of necessity, but rather by virtue of a tragic, almost comical combination of klutzy, opportunistic terrorism against sitting ducks whom it pretends to shelter, plus our childish phobia of responsibility, praying to be exempted from the hard reality of life on life's terms." Wolf DeVoon

    "...Make America Great Again. I'm interested in making American FREE again. Then the greatness will come automatically."Ron Paul

  14. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by CCTelander View Post
    Tell that to the American poor and middle class who at the moment are burdened by levels of price inflation that are really putting a bite on them. I’m sure they’d be delighted to pay even higher prices for the goods and services they need every day in order to accommodate the protectionist tariffs you and Swordy delude yourselves into believing will help them out. “In the long run,” of course. If they survive intact to see it.
    They wouldn't be poor today if we cut off trade 20 years ago.

    Investing into a better future always has short term pain. Doesn't mean we shouldn't do it.
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Crenshaw 2024!!!!

    My pronouns are he/him/his

  15. #133
    Free trade leads to dependence which leads to economic and cultural influence which leads to economic and cultural integration which leads to a complete loss of economic and cultural identity which leads to regional political integration and eventually global political integration and a one world government.

    Y'all can say "but muh Mises" or "but muh rights" all you want but it's been happening in front of our eyes for as long as any of us have been born.

    We are headed very quickly towards a one world government and protecting each nation's cultural and economic identities is the only way to stop it.

    Y'all don't like "collectivism" but that is unfortunately exactly what is required if this world is to retain any kind of sovereignty and thus freedom.

    You sure as $#@! aren't stopping the globalists as individuals.
    Last edited by TheTexan; 04-14-2024 at 06:06 PM.
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Crenshaw 2024!!!!

    My pronouns are he/him/his

  16. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTexan View Post
    Free trade leads to...
    You sure?

    How do you know?

    When was the last time we tried it to see what happens?



    What we have right now is definitely managed trade. If the way it's managed is not to your liking, trust me, Republicans have had just as much to do with that as Democrats have.

    Has Trump said anything about repealing the bizarre existing laws, before taxing the $#@! out of everything? Because if they don't, all in the world tariffs can change is the prices we wind up paying for $#@! from the same damned place.
    Last edited by acptulsa; 04-14-2024 at 07:13 PM.

  17. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTexan View Post
    They wouldn't be poor today if we cut off trade 20 years ago.

    Investing into a better future always has short term pain. Doesn't mean we shouldn't do it.

    Your first comment is patently false and there is an abundance of real life evidence and experience to demonstrate that fact. I’ve presented just a tiny little bit of it above, which, if past experience with you is any guide, you’ll probably just blithely dismiss as “not compelling.”

    Your second line above merely amounts to saying “let them eat cake.” I guess it’s always nice when you can offload most of the suffering necessary in the attempt to reach your own glorious view of the way things ought to be onto others. It makes it so much easier to make those “difficult” decisions, I’m sure.
    Chris

    "Government ... does not exist of necessity, but rather by virtue of a tragic, almost comical combination of klutzy, opportunistic terrorism against sitting ducks whom it pretends to shelter, plus our childish phobia of responsibility, praying to be exempted from the hard reality of life on life's terms." Wolf DeVoon

    "...Make America Great Again. I'm interested in making American FREE again. Then the greatness will come automatically."Ron Paul

  18. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    Step one: Institute a new state tax that involves everyone stopping at every state border and potentially standing a search.

    Step two: ??

    Step three: ??

    Step four: Suddenly, magically, there's no federal income tax.

    Slick.
    You get rid of the bad taxes at the same time, DUH!

    But I suppose you like income taxes, property taxes, inventory taxes, and sales taxes, all of which are more burdensome to liberty and market competition than tariffs at the state or federal level.
    Sales taxes are the least bad of the above, being not much worse than excise taxes on the first sale by the manufacturer of specific products.
    Ideally we would eliminate all other taxes and replace them with tariffs and excise taxes on the first sale.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment



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  20. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    Congratulations. You are now on the same side of the debate as Phil Donohue.



    You too, Phil.

    In order to avoid centralized control we must ratchet up centralized control. Because if we don't, somebody else will. Never mind two hundred years of history wherein everybody else ratched up control, and our free market kicked all their asses at once.

    Lord have mercy on us.

    https://twitter.com/ian_mckelvey/sta...92299102453961






    You people are just like Teh Left. You use "people can't be trusted" as an excuse to trust the very worst people out there.
    You are the one listening to the Shirky people.

    And what we want is to entrench DEcentralized control, The Texican wants it even more decentralized than I do but we are both pulling in the same direction for now.
    You are pulling in the direction of globalized trade and centralized globalized government.
    You will NEVER get rid of all control, life and people just don't work that way, so you have to work for decentralization and against universalization.

    And you are the one demanding we trust people like the CCP and the international corporations with our economy and liberty.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  21. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by CCTelander View Post
    Is this the kind of delusional crap you “learned” from Ian Fletcher’s book? That big hearted foreign companies, in response to your attempts to mulct them, simply roll over and take it? And not even just take it, they go even further acting like true philanthropists and LOWER their prices just cause they have such charitable hearts? Wow, that’s some real Pollyanna $#@! right there. It defies common sense and reason.
    You don't understand basic economics or arithmetic.
    If China is selling $5 widgets while American companies are selling $7 widgets and we put a 100% tariff on China then China must lower their price $3 so the post tariff price is $6 if they want to keep undercutting American companies.
    Some of them may be able to afford to do so and will do it, the others will lose market share in our country.
    Meanwhile the taxpayer gets tax relief by the tariff amount using a tax he can avoid by paying only $1 more for an American widget and the American workers don't lose so much work to China and can afford to pay for American widgets.
    If the Chinese do not lower their prices then they leave our market and we create opportunity for more domestic competition to arise selling $6 or $7 widgets competing on price or quality where a startup business would have been completely prevented from having a chance to start against Chinese slave labor and government subsidized dumping at a loss.

    Quote Originally Posted by CCTelander View Post
    Back in 1986 US officials, at the prompting of industry lobbyists no doubt, decided that the American red cedar shake and shingle industry needed a bit of “protection” so they slapped a 35% tariff on red cedar shakes and shingles. At the time the supply of red cedar here in the US was extremely limited so we were importing a lot of our shakes and shingles from Canada. Well the high tariff devastated the Canadian shake and shingle industry. Many Canadian workers lost their jobs. But hey, those are Canadians, right? Who gives a $#@! about Canadians? Let ‘‘em starve, right?

    It turns out that Canadians gave a $#@! about other Canadians losing THEIR high paying jobs, so Canada retaliated by slapping high tariffs on American computer parts, Christmas trees, tea bags and cider. Naturally that had a negative impact on those American industries. But back to cedar shakes and shingles.

    Back here in the US there were a few people who held long-term contracts to purchase cedar at pre-tariff prices. Those guys became millionaires overnight.

    Unfortunately, the US shake and shingle industry didn’t fare quite as well. In response to the high tariff they raised their prices sharply, as is the case usually in response to high tariffs. However, instead of just bending over and taking it US builders simply scorned shakes and shingles and shifted over to tile and asphalt roofing. Within 2 years the entire US shake and shingle market had contracted by 45%. I imagine THAT cost a few people their jobs.

    The whole fiasco had one other major effect. Remember that US supplies of red cedar at the time were extremely limited. Well this whole fiasco incentivized US timber companies to deplete those supplies at a vastly accelerated rate, in order to try and capitalize on the higher prices.

    THAT’s what tariffs do. THAT’s how real people, out here in the real world respond to them. Not in some delusional, Pollyanna way like you describe. Real effects from the real world.
    Utter nonsense.
    We should not be concerned about the economies of foreign countries, if they are export dependent in their trade with us they will either lower their prices (which they failed to do, that's their problem) or adjust their economy to properly allocate resources for their own independence. (good for everyone as it reverses globalization and the NAFTA/NAU centralized government trend that starts with regions and leads to world government.
    Our own industries that get tariffed can either adjust their prices to maintain market share in the foreign country or we can reallocate our economic resources towards independence instead of being export or import dependence.
    American shingle companies raising their prices is their own stupid fault, they could have maintained their prices and eaten up the new market share, that kind of thing opens up opportunities competition to arise, like the other (better) types of roofing did.
    And just how did American cedar get depleted if everyone switched away from using cedar shingles because of the price hikes?
    But we'll say it actually did, that just incentivizes further investment in the industry to replace the supply by plating more trees for the future or by expanding the competing industries that produce other materials that can replace the cedar.

    And what you describe was all caused by Free Traders lowering tariffs and creating foreign trade entanglements in the first place, we never should have been dependent on Canadian cedar and they never should have been dependent on selling it to us.
    Meanwhile raising the tariffs helped to forstal and reverse the NAFTA/NAU push to entwine us in an unelected regional government like the EU that would eventually have merged us into a hemispherical government and then a world government.

    And you just ignore all the destruction that must have happened to American workers and Industry when the tariffs were lowered in the modern era.

    You want free trade? find a country that has equal or better liberty to America and has it as ingrained in their history and culture as America does, then decide if you want to see the two countries merge.
    Do that and we can talk.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  22. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by CCTelander View Post
    Tell that to the American poor and middle class who at the moment are burdened by levels of price inflation that are really putting a bite on them. I’m sure they’d be delighted to pay even higher prices for the goods and services they need every day in order to accommodate the protectionist tariffs you and Swordy delude yourselves into believing will help them out. “In the long run,” of course. If they survive intact to see it.
    None of the inflation is caused by tariffs, but Free Trade has been responsible for the wage suppression that causes as much or more pain the the inflation does.
    We can get rid of the inflation by addressing its actual causes, and we can restore the middle and lower classes wages by ceasing to allow foreign slave labor to be imported through open borders (the labor market twin of Free Trade) and offshoring to places like China.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  23. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by CCTelander View Post
    Here are a couple more quick ones:

    Kidney stones are a pretty common medical issue here in the US. Every year about a quarter million people are hospitalized for kidney stone treatment. In 1985, 1149 died due to complications arising from kidney stones.

    Well, back in 1984 a West German company had developed-ed a new lithotripter machine that could be used to destroy kidney stones from outside the body using shock waves. The procedure is much less invasive, painful and dangerous than then traditional kidney stone surgery.

    In order to “protect” US medical equipment manufacturers, not a single one of which was even contemplating a machine like the West German lithotripter at the time, the US slapped a hefty tariff on the machine. One hospital, upon importing just one lithotripter paid a tariff, just the tariff of $189,964.32?!? As one might imagine this insane tax discouraged a great many from quickly adopting this life-saving technology and as a result there were many unnecessary deaths and many many more patients had to endure the much more painful and invasive traditional treatments.

    Another:

    Back in the day, at the behest of the US textile industry, a tariff of 33% had been levied on a special particularly dense wool blend fabric that was used to make protective garments for firefighters. In 1988 Rep. Richard Roe had proposed to reduce this tariff. In spite of the fact that no US company even produced such a wool blend fabric the American Textile Manufacturers Institute, an industry lobbying group, strenuously objected to reducing the tariff on the grounds that some American company at some future date might decide to start such production if the tariff remained higher. Apparently, a few more singed or dead firemen was considered a small price to pay to allow for such a possibility.

    These kinds of situations happen a lot. So often, in fact, that some people have coined a phrase to describe it. That phrase is “Death by Tariff.”

    Real effects from the real world.
    That's why you don't tariff things we can't make.
    And why you only put high enough tariffs to encourage domestic production of things we don't make but can until we have an industry that makes them up and running.

    And why do you assume that the tariffs are the problem when the problem is clearly that domestic taxes (higher because we don't have enough tariffs and are losing our tax base as industries offshore) and regulations are so high?
    The answer is clearly that we need to lower taxes and shift more taxation to tariffs and lower regulations so that somebody sees that opportunity to produce that special wool fabric at a lower price and starts a new factory to produce it here.

    You can cherry pick all the edge cases that you want, but the problem with them is never actually tariffs in principle, maybe bad tariffs, but not tariffs, and most often the problem is something entirely different like taxes and regulations.
    And you don't get to blithely disregard the far more destructive effects of Free Trade that has cratered our manufacturing capacity, increased our foreign entanglement, and reduced thousands of once thriving American towns to Rust Belt hellholes.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  24. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTexan View Post
    Free trade leads to dependence which leads to economic and cultural influence which leads to economic and cultural integration which leads to a complete loss of economic and cultural identity which leads to regional political integration and eventually global political integration and a one world government.

    Y'all can say "but muh Mises" or "but muh rights" all you want but it's been happening in front of our eyes for as long as any of us have been born.

    We are headed very quickly towards a one world government and protecting each nation's cultural and economic identities is the only way to stop it.

    Y'all don't like "collectivism" but that is unfortunately exactly what is required if this world is to retain any kind of sovereignty and thus freedom.

    You sure as $#@! aren't stopping the globalists as individuals.
    They are like the leftists who praise "diversity" while ignoring the fact that their policies create one gray lump of monoculture mixed race global citizens.
    They either actually want the results that are happening, only really care about their wallets in the short term, or are so indoctrinated that they cling to the dogma in spite of all logic and real world results.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  25. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    You sure?

    How do you know?

    When was the last time we tried it to see what happens?



    What we have right now is definitely managed trade. If the way it's managed is not to your liking, trust me, Republicans have had just as much to do with that as Democrats have.

    Has Trump said anything about repealing the bizarre existing laws, before taxing the $#@! out of everything? Because if they don't, all in the world tariffs can change is the prices we wind up paying for $#@! from the same damned place.
    Just like your communist cousins:




    THAT ISN'T REAL FREE TRADE!

    You know what it IS? It is real human nature.
    You will NEVER get your "New Anarchist/Libertarian Man/Society" or your "Real Free Trade" any more than the Marxists will get their "New Soviet Man" and achieve "Real Communist Utopia".

    Never mind that "Real" Free Trade accomplishes the same global interdependence by its own prophets' admission, they just try to sell it as an advantage.
    Last edited by Swordsmyth; 04-15-2024 at 12:44 AM.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  26. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    You get rid of the bad taxes at the same time, DUH!
    If I could get rid of taxes, there would only be enough taxes being taken right now to fill potholes.

    So, WHO gets rid of "the bad taxes" (as if there are good taxes)? Because Democrats have never repealed a tax, and neither have Republicans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    THAT ISN'T REAL FREE TRADE!
    You are as pathetic as those communists. You're so full of projection you'll grasp at anything.

    Communism is -- something. Free trade is the lack of something. The lack of something is easy to define, and easy to see. Do you see lots and lots of government micromismanagement? Could be communism, but there are other words for that. But what it is not is free trade, because if there is government management, there is not free trade.

    See how logic works? Now you try using the stuff once in your life.
    Last edited by acptulsa; 04-15-2024 at 04:04 AM.

  27. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by CCTelander View Post
    Your first comment is patently false and there is an abundance of real life evidence and experience to demonstrate that fact. I’ve presented just a tiny little bit of it above, which, if past experience with you is any guide, you’ll probably just blithely dismiss as “not compelling.”
    Your "evidence" demonstrates nothing as it is not relevant at all to any of my arguments. We're basically just dismissing each other outright anyway, so this seems like a good stopping point for me for this thread.

    I've considered your point of view - as I used to share it. You don't seem to have considered my point of view at all, as if you had, you would have better counter arguments.
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Crenshaw 2024!!!!

    My pronouns are he/him/his



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  29. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    They are like the leftists who praise "diversity" while ignoring the fact that their policies create one gray lump of monoculture mixed race global citizens.
    Quite right.

    They either actually want the results that are happening, only really care about their wallets in the short term, or are so indoctrinated that they cling to the dogma in spite of all logic and real world results.
    Mises couldn't possibly be wrong on anything.
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Crenshaw 2024!!!!

    My pronouns are he/him/his

  30. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    If I could get rid of taxes, there would only be enough taxes being taken right now to fill potholes.

    So, WHO gets rid of "the bad taxes" (as if there are good taxes)? Because Democrats have never repealed a tax, and neither have Republicans.



    You are as pathetic as those communists. You're so full of projection you'll grasp at anything.

    Communism is -- something. Free trade is the lack of something. The lack of something is easy to define, and easy to see. Do you see lots and lots of government micromismanagement? Could be communism, but there are other words for that. But what it is not is free trade, because if there is government management, there is not free trade.

    See how logic works? Now you try using the stuff once in your life.
    You and the communists both pedal theoretical ideals, absolutes that don't, can't, and never will exist.
    You deny the realities of human nature and say "if EVERYONE would just..." while ignoring the fact that it is impossible because human nature will not change.
    You will never get people to just unilaterally eliminate all trade barriers without making agreements and enforcement mechanisms to ensure it isn't unilateral.
    You will never get all trade partners to each unilaterally drop all barriers.
    And even if you did the globalists would start to meddle and use it to create world government.

    What we have is what REAL Free Trade is in the REAL world, just like every failed communist despotism that killed millions IS REAL communism.

    You wouldn't know logic if it punched you in the gut, you have taken refuge in fantasy worlds populated by pure theoretical ideas.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  31. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    You and the communists both pedal theoretical ideals, absolutes that don't, can't, and never will exist.
    You deny the realities of human nature and say "if EVERYONE would just..." while ignoring the fact that it is impossible because human nature will not change.
    Whereas you have the firmest grip in the world on everything that is and isn't possible within the boundaries of human nature, especially when it comes to what politicians can realistically be compelled to do. For example...

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    You get rid of the bad taxes at the same time, DUH!
    Oh, wait...

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    What we have is what REAL Free Trade is in the REAL world, just like every failed communist despotism that killed millions IS REAL communism.
    So the definitions of the terms we all use are now officially modified by your perception of reality. Fact checked by Mirriam, Webster & Swordsmyth.
    Last edited by acptulsa; 04-15-2024 at 05:15 AM.

  32. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    Whereas you have the firmest grip in the world on everything that is and isn't possible within the boundaries of human nature, especially when it comes to what politicians can realistically be compelled to do. For example...



    Oh, wait...



    So the definitions of the terms we all use are now officially modified by your perception of reality. Fact checked by Mirriam, Webster & Swordsmyth.
    Mine is absolutely possible, difficult, but possible, like all liberty ideas.

    And my definitions are accurate as applied to the real world, if you promote free trade you get what we have and everyone calls it free trade and many free trade advocates advocate for it.

    I suppose you are now going to claim that what the USSR and Mao's China and all the others had really isn't "real" communism?
    If you are going to dive that deep into the deep end of stale philosophy then no Platonic Ideals exist in the world at all, nothing is "REAL [insert object or concept here]".
    But that still leaves Free Trade an impossibility and "Real" Free Trade would stil destroy liberty and prosperity if it could be conjured.
    Last edited by Swordsmyth; 04-15-2024 at 05:36 AM.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  33. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Mine is absolutely possible, difficult, but possible, like all liberty ideas.

    And my definitions are accurate as applied to the real world, if you promote free trade you get what we have and everyone calls it free trade and many free trade advocates advocate for it.
    And that's why Republicans always wind up conserving forever the mistakes Democrats made four years before. They let Democrats define words, and let Democrats define what's possible, just because "everybody's calling it" that.
    Last edited by acptulsa; 04-15-2024 at 06:02 AM.

  34. #150

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