Thought experiment to show why protectionism damages the economy

[TheTexan]

Value added manufacturing, taking raw materials out of the ground and producing highly crafted things out of it, is how you make a nation and a people productive, independent and free.

This is what defines the wealth of a nation: the ability to produce.

[acptulsa]

Honestly, I'd rather take the politician that promises to make America great and doesnt deliver, than the politician that promises to destroy this country and everything we hope it still stands for.

Good thing we have more than two choices. Isn't it?

Or do you think we have good reason to let our enemies restrict our choices to Dumb and Dumber?

[TheTexan]

Good thing we have more than two choices. Isn't it?

Do we? I count zero choices from my perspective.

Or do you think we have good reason to let our enemies restrict our choices to Dumb and Dumber?

We just need to keep this ship afloat just long enough for Texas and other states to secede. After that they can burn the rest of it to a crisp I don't care.

[acptulsa]

We just need to keep this ship afloat just long enough for Texas and other states to secede. After that they can burn the rest of it to a crisp I don't care.

Agreed. Indian Nations for the win.

[Swordsmyth]

This is what defines the wealth of a nation: the ability to produce.

The wealth and security and liberty.

[Swordsmyth]

Good thing we have more than two choices. Isn't it?

Or do you think we have good reason to let our enemies restrict our choices to Dumb and Dumber?

You don't.
And it's not the enemies who solely restrict your choices, it's the structure of the system and the average man who restrict you.

And your supposed 3rd choice (RFK) is just as bad as Brandon and openly endorses policies that destroy America and liberty.

[Swordsmyth]

I don't think protectionist tariffs are a good thing, but I do think tariffs in general are a good thing. If this country were to even outright ban international trade it would be much better off in the decades to come. We have allowed other countries to exert undue economic and cultural influence on us, largely because of our dependence on their trade, and this has had a deleterious effect on our society, culture, economy, and prosperity. We need less trade, not more...

And again, to pre-empt any kind of "but muh rights" kind of retort (from anyone, not specifically you), I fully support your right to secede. If you do want free trade, great, secede. But don't expect trade with the nation you left behind.

And expect to lose your rights as Free Trade forces your newly seceded nation into the World Government.

P.S. if your seceded state can't provide for all its needs from food to defense you had better have a plan to make at least a loose coalition of states that all share liberty values and that can provide for all the needs together, otherwise you will be forced into free trade and world government.

[Swordsmyth]

Or hire someone who might make the government stand down and stand back, and let Americans make America great again? Because no politicians ever did that thing.

There isn't one running.

[Swordsmyth]

Ok, economic truths are too hard to understand for some people... Let's try this one...

Even if you think protectionist tariffs are a good thing, you have to recognize that they will be selectively implemented by self-interested politicians beholden to their favored donors, and then administered and enforced by a litany of unelected bureaucrats and government employees operating by their own interests. Meanwhile, any misstep in application or execution will result in bruised relationships with other trading partners that have cascading effects around the globe - often resulting in increased geopolitical tensions and eventually war.

To believe that this is a good idea is to believe the idea that there are pious planners out there that will get these protectionist tariffs just right in order to increase manufacturing while minimizing damage to other industries, and they can do it just such a manner that it will not cause any ripple effects that could cause us harm.

Imperfect tariffs are better than none.
And the more tariffs there are the less uneven and imperfect they can be.
Always vote for more tariffs on anything we can provide for ourselves.

And you know what's worse than wars between independent nations? World Government.
World Government is what Free Trade leads to, just as the Common Market led to the EU.

[CCTelander]

I still refuse to sweat over a toaster gap.

[acptulsa]

You don't.
And it's not the enemies who solely restrict your choices, it's the structure of the system and the average man who restrict you.

The only person I see trying to restrict me is you. Are you sure you measure up to that description?

P.S. if your seceded state can't provide for all its needs from food to defense you had better have a plan to make at least a loose coalition of states that all share liberty values and that can provide for all the needs together, otherwise you will be forced into free trade and world government.

You have to have people you can trade freely with or you will be forced to engage in free trade against your will..?

The comedy never stops.

[CaptUSA]

Imperfect tariffs are better than none.
And the more tariffs there are the less uneven and imperfect they can be.
Always vote for more tariffs on anything we can provide for ourselves.

"Imperfect taxation is better than none.
And the more taxes there are the less uneven and imperfect they can be.
Always vote for more taxes on anything we can provide for ourselves."

You just justified the entire democratic ideology - nice. No wonder protectionist tariffs have been part of that party's platform for decades. Bernie would approve.

[acptulsa]

"Imperfect taxation is better than none.
And the more taxes there are the less uneven and imperfect they can be.
Always vote for more taxes on anything we can provide for ourselves."

You just justified the entire democratic ideology - nice. No wonder protectionist tariffs have been part of that party's platform for decades. Bernie would approve.

Republicans. Conserving all the crappiest Democrat policies since April, 1929.

[Swordsmyth]

"Imperfect taxation is better than none.
And the more taxes there are the less uneven and imperfect they can be.
Always vote for more taxes on anything we can provide for ourselves."

You just justified the entire democratic ideology - nice. No wonder protectionist tariffs have been part of that party's platform for decades. Bernie would approve.

All taxes are not tariffs.
Nice try but you fail.
Tariffs are the best kind of tax that is easiest to avoid and that has the least negative effects and some positive effects, if we have tariffs we can get rid of other taxes.
More tariffs=better and even if you reach the point of diminishing returns where more is not better they never do much harm.

[Swordsmyth]

The only person I see trying to restrict me is you. Are you sure you measure up to that description?

Proving again you are not tall enough for this ride and don't even understand how the system works.

You have to have people you can trade freely with or you will be forced to engage in free trade against your will..?

The comedy never stops.

If you don't have your own liberty loving group capable of independence you will be forced into the liberty hating group.
You really are short on understanding.
Or you are just congenitally dishonest.

[acptulsa]

If you don't have your own liberty loving group capable of independence you will be forced into the liberty hating group.

The voice of experience.

Well it won't be you who forces me into your group.

[CaptUSA]

All taxes are not tariffs.
Nice try but you fail.
Tariffs are the best kind of tax that is easiest to avoid and that has the least negative effects and some positive effects, if we have tariffs we can get rid of other taxes.
More tariffs=better and even if you reach the point of diminishing returns where more is not better they never do much harm.

Ah, I get it now.. It's Schrodinger's Tax. Simultaneously being avoided while offsetting other taxes. Brilliant!


But again, you're being dishonest by comparing uniform tariffs as a form of taxation versus protectionist tariffs as a prelude to war.

[Swordsmyth]

Ah, I get it now.. It's Schrodinger's Tax. Simultaneously being avoided while offsetting other taxes. Brilliant!

It all depends on how people react to it.
But it will reduce other taxes if it doesn't eliminate them.
And those paying it will have had more choice in doing so than with other taxes.

But again, you're being dishonest by comparing uniform tariffs as a form of taxation versus protectionist tariffs as a prelude to war.

Protectionist tariffs are not a prelude to war, they reduce foreign entanglements that lead to wars.
Free Trade is a prelude to war and to a state which doesn't use slave labor and other state interventions losing the eventual war.

[CaptUSA]

It all depends on how people react to it.
But it will reduce other taxes if it doesn't eliminate them.
And those paying it will have had more choice in doing so than with other taxes.




Protectionist tariffs are not a prelude to war, they reduce foreign entanglements that lead to wars.
Free Trade is a prelude to war and to a state which doesn't use slave labor and other state interventions losing the eventual war.

You know, it's usually a clue that when you build an argument upon "if" statements - and those "if's" have to be designed by politicians just right and implemented meticulously by bureaucrats - that maybe your complicated government control and balancing act is probably not a very good idea and we should just try freedom.



(and seriously, are you just going to paraphrase Orwell in this thread? You've already done "War is Peace" and "Freedom is Slavery" arguments, you have to work in "Ignorance is Strength" and you'll be all set! I'm sure you've made it before, but can you do it in a single thread???)

[Swordsmyth]

You know, it's usually a clue that when you build an argument upon "if" statements - and those "if's" have to be designed by politicians just right and implemented meticulously by bureaucrats - that maybe your complicated government control and balancing act is probably not a very good idea and we should just try freedom.

The only if in my statement is not in the foundation, it's an either/or if where either outcome is beneficial.
All of your IFs are just as tenuous and have a worse historical record.
If you want liberty you need independence, if you want independence you need well rounded industry, if you want well rounded industry you can't have Free Trade.
Of course, if you don't care about liberty and just want to save money while liberty dies because you expect to be dead before things get too bad then you can have Free Trade.

[acptulsa]

If you want liberty you need independence, if you want independence you need well rounded industry, if you want well rounded industry you can't have Free Trade.

Can't? As in, can not? As in, it's impossible?

Please use your Orwellian logic to explain how we had both freedom and well rounded industry a hundred years ago, and were using all the free trade available to us to export our goods to the whole world?

[Swordsmyth]

Can't? As in, can not? As in, it's impossible?

Please use your Orwellian logic to explain how we had both freedom and well rounded industry a hundred years ago, and were using all the free trade available to us to export our goods to the whole world?

It's simple, we didn't have Free Trade 100 years ago.
And as we moved towards Free Trade we have lost independence, freedom, and industry to the same extent.

[acptulsa]

It's simple, we didn't have Free Trade 100 years ago.

Can you name a country where the Dodge Brothers did not sell an automobile during the 1920s?

[Swordsmyth]

Can you name a country where the Dodge Brothers did not sell an automobile during the 1920s?

That's not what defines Free Trade.
That's just Trade.
Free Trade is when you don't have Tariffs or other barriers that importers and exporters have to overcome.

[acptulsa]

Much as I thought. What you're calling Free Trade™ has no more to do with free trade than Trump's Jab has to do with real vaccines. You whine about progs but you use all the same disingenuous tactics they do -- you redefine every word in the language and play gotcha games like a schoolgirl.

Why are you here? There are people at DU who will never fault you for redefining terms because it's what they do, too. You can't play your games with people who actually like playing those games?

[Swordsmyth]

Much as I thought. What you're calling Free Trade™ has no more to do with free trade than Trump's Jab has to do with real vaccines. You whine about progs but you use all the same disingenuous tactics they do -- you redefine every word in the language and play gotcha games like a schoolgirl.

Why are you here? There are people at DU who will never fault you for redefining terms because it's what they do, too. You can't play your games with people who actually like playing those games?

That's exactly what YOU are doing.

Selling cars in a foreign country has never been the definition of Free Trade, nor is it what you have been arguing for.
Free Trade is the lack of Tariffs and other trade barriers.
This whole argument is about having tariffs or not.

You can't win the argument by becoming completely divorced from reality.


Free trade is a trade policy that does not restrict imports or exports. In government, free trade is predominantly advocated by political parties that hold economically liberal positions, while economic nationalist and left-wing political parties generally support protectionism,^[1][2][3][4] the opposite of free trade.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_trade

[acptulsa]

But again, you're being dishonest by comparing uniform tariffs as a form of taxation versus protectionist tariffs as a prelude to war.

And simultaneously doubling down on it while denying he's doing it.

[Madison320]

And again, to pre-empt any kind of "but muh rights" kind of retort (from anyone, not specifically you), I fully support your right to secede. If you do want free trade, great, secede. But don't expect trade with the nation you left behind.

You can use that excuse to implement any sort of totalitarian rule. Forced vaccinations are ok because you can secede if you don't like them. 100% tax rate is fine, because you can secede.

[Madison320]

So you're just fine with slave labor as long as the products are cheap. Nice thought experiment. Next you'll tell us we should just compete better than China and and be more like them and bring back slave labor in the US.

You're missing the point. We don't have to compete with China. We can just take advantage of the cheap stuff they're selling us. We don't need to sell anything back to them.

The idea that we need the government to ban stuff because we might become "reliant" on it is wrong. Using that logic you'd ban the steel coming out of the ground. What about a company that sells a product cheaper and better than anyone else? Do we need to break them up because we'll become "reliant" on them. Are you in favor of antitrust laws? There's always risk in a free society. It should be up to individuals to decide it they want to take the risk, not a government central planner.

Ultimately I'm offended that anyone would use government force to prevent me from trading with someone else. Maybe the economic argument is hard to understand but the moral one is easy.

[TheTexan]

You can use that excuse to implement any sort of totalitarian rule. Forced vaccinations are ok because you can secede if you don't like them. 100% tax rate is fine, because you can secede.

Right, and I don't see any issue with that. If given a fair offer to secede, and you choose to remain, your participation is voluntary and you are subject to whatever rules you have opted yourself into.