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Thread: Thought experiment to show why protectionism damages the economy

  1. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post

    Man, you just don’t get it. We’re going to TAX our way to prosperity and security.

    Oh wait, we’ve got to do one more thing. Maintain a rigidly enforced hegemony.

    You know, looking at that again, it kinda reminds me of something.
    Chris

    "Government ... does not exist of necessity, but rather by virtue of a tragic, almost comical combination of klutzy, opportunistic terrorism against sitting ducks whom it pretends to shelter, plus our childish phobia of responsibility, praying to be exempted from the hard reality of life on life's terms." Wolf DeVoon

    "...Make America Great Again. I'm interested in making American FREE again. Then the greatness will come automatically."Ron Paul



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  3. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by CCTelander View Post
    Man, you just don’t get it. We’re going to TAX our way to prosperity and security.

    Oh wait, we’ve got to do one more thing. Maintain a rigidly enforced hegemony.

    You know, looking at that again, it kinda reminds me of something.
    Both of you are just lying now.
    Nowhere have I rejected tax relief, I have consistently called for it throughout this conversation, and nowhere have I called for maintaining a rigidly enforced hegemony.

    You know what industrial independence does? it makes you not need to care about access to foreign markets for your needs so you can refrain from vying for hegemony.
    Free Trade causes you to need to compete for hegemony and entangling alliances so you can ensure access to what you need.
    Mine is the Noninterventionist position, yours is the position that leads to interventionism by necessity.
    Last edited by Swordsmyth; 04-16-2024 at 11:06 PM.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment



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  5. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Both of you are just lying now.
    Nowhere have I rejected tax relief, I have consistently called for it throughout this conversation...
    You called for new and increased taxes. First you said that you are the only one putting forth real world solutions, then you put forth the proposition that enacting a bunch of new state taxes will convince Congress to scrap the income tax(!). It's ridiculous.

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    ...and nowhere have I called for maintaining a rigidly enforced hegemony.
    Except when you assert that government interfering in trade is an unqualified good. Except when you insist that voting for someone not part of a major political party is bad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    You know what industrial independence does? it makes you not need to care about access to foreign markets for your needs so you can refrain from vying for hegenmony.
    Look the word up. Then you'd not only know what hegemony means, you'd be able to spell it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Mine is the Noninterventionist position...
    Tariffs are non-interventionist now. Intervention is non-interventionist. Got it. Orwell would be proud of you.

  6. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Both of you are just lying now.
    ...nowhere have I called for maintaining a rigidly enforced hegemony.
    Let's just see who's lying, shall we?

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    We should agree to that, with the stipulation that you have to show up for Muster from time to time to have your Government provided gun inspected.
    "You" in this case being every citizen? Every able-bodied male citizen? Something like that, right?

    You literally want to line up to have some government kommisar inspect your gun? Kinky. I've heard of femme-dominated dungeon slave games like that. But then, the kommisar you're daydreaming about would be a man, right?

    Even kinkier.

    Did you look up the word "hegemony" yet?
    Last edited by acptulsa; 04-16-2024 at 06:27 AM.

  7. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    You know what industrial independence does? it makes you not need to care about access to foreign markets for your needs so you can refrain from vying for hegenmony.
    Free Trade causes you to need to compete for hegemony and entangling alliances so you can ensure access to what you need.
    Mine is the Noninterventionist position, yours is the position that leads to interventionism by necessity.
    Man, I stepped out of this thread due to your willful ignorance and doublespeak - just seems like a lost cause.

    It's so simple, if you want your home to operate without foreign products, stop buying them. But why force the rest of us?? This isn't hard. For some reason, socialists always think that because they want to live a certain way, everyone else should be force to live that way, too.

    I like my Scotch and my bourbon. I don't need a government middle-man making me pay HIM a fee because the bourbon lobby funding his campaign doesn't like the competition. I was going to spend that money on my kid's piano lessons, but I guess now his piano teacher will have one less student and my kid will learn on his own. Thanks, socialist busybody!
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire

  8. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    For some reason, socialists always think that because they want to live a certain way, everyone else should be forced to live that way, too.
    I don't know what makes them that way. But that's certainly why they worship celebrity and power. And why they're all the time trying to redefine the word liberty as something completely different which they don't despise.

  9. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    You called for new and increased taxes. First you said that you are the only one putting forth real world solutions, then you put forth the proposition that enacting a bunch of new state taxes will convince Congress to scrap the income tax(!). It's ridiculous.
    Lies, I called for the reduction or elimination of other taxes at the same time every step of the way.
    I have always wanted reductions in total taxation and spending and I said nothing to change that.



    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    Except when you assert that government interfering in trade is an unqualified good. Except when you insist that voting for someone not part of a major political party is bad.
    That's not the same thing at all, you can't take two different things and claim they are the same.
    Nor did I ever say either of those things as an absolute.
    In fact, I have said that tariffs have "the least negative effects and some good effects" that acknowledges that they have negative effects like all taxation.



    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    Look the word up. Then you'd not only know what hegemony means, you'd be able to spell it.
    When losing the argument, call out typos.




    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    Tariffs are non-interventionist now. Intervention is non-interventionist. Got it. Orwell would be proud of you.
    You can't conflate foreign policy with domestic policy, government exists for certain necessary domestic intervention functions and to intervene against foreign intervention in domestic issues.
    The well known meaning of noninterventionism is to stay out of foreign nations and their issues as much as possible.
    Free Trade forces you to get involved with foreign countries because you become dependent on them.

    Your lies are so obvious lately that I almost don't have to respond to them.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  10. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    Let's just see who's lying, shall we?



    "You" in this case being every citizen? Every able-bodied male citizen? Something like that, right?

    You literally want to line up to have some government kommisar inspect your gun? Kinky. I've heard of femme-dominated dungeon slave games like that. But then, the kommisar you're daydreaming about would be a man, right?

    Even kinkier.

    Did you look up the word "hegemony" yet?
    Proving again that you are conflating international hegemony with domestic policy.
    And you are also confused about who has hegemony domestically when a Well Regulated Militia is maintained, the people have hegemony, that's why the founding fathers wanted a Well Regulated Militia to preserve the state of freedom and why the government has deliberately eroded the militia system in order to gain hegemony over the people.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  11. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    Man, I stepped out of this thread due to your willful ignorance and doublespeak - just seems like a lost cause.

    It's so simple, if you want your home to operate without foreign products, stop buying them. But why force the rest of us?? This isn't hard. For some reason, socialists always think that because they want to live a certain way, everyone else should be force to live that way, too.

    I like my Scotch and my bourbon. I don't need a government middle-man making me pay HIM a fee because the bourbon lobby funding his campaign doesn't like the competition. I was going to spend that money on my kid's piano lessons, but I guess now his piano teacher will have one less student and my kid will learn on his own. Thanks, socialist busybody!
    When you entangle my nation in foreign trade you destroy my liberty and fore me into buying foreign products because we no longer make them here or the cost of domestic versions is so high relative to my wages that are suppressed by shipping our industries overseas.
    Free Trade infringes on my rights and drags me into the regional and global tyrannies it creates.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  12. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    When you entangle my nation in foreign trade you destroy my liberty and fore me into buying foreign products because we no longer make them here or the cost of domestic versions is so high relative to my wages that are suppressed by shipping our industries overseas.
    Free Trade infringes on my rights and drags me into the regional and global tyrannies it creates.
    ...said every socialist ever.
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire



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  14. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    ...said every socialist ever.

    I know, right?
    Chris

    "Government ... does not exist of necessity, but rather by virtue of a tragic, almost comical combination of klutzy, opportunistic terrorism against sitting ducks whom it pretends to shelter, plus our childish phobia of responsibility, praying to be exempted from the hard reality of life on life's terms." Wolf DeVoon

    "...Make America Great Again. I'm interested in making American FREE again. Then the greatness will come automatically."Ron Paul

  15. #162
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Lies, I called for the reduction or elimination of other taxes at the same time every step of the way.
    Not exactly every step of the way, but it doesn't matter. What matters is, one, you just called me a liar then confirmed I was telling the truth, all in the same sentence. Whether you called for eliminating other taxes every step of the way, or didn't even think of it until you were called on it, you called for new tariffs and increased tariffs, which are taxes.
    Fact. And two, this particular hissy fit is you trying not to answer the charge that you accuse us of being unrealistic and boast about the real world viability of you little schemes, then say, but of course the same federal government which is currently defying the population and financing Israel's border but not ours will see these new state taxes and eliminate federal taxes -- specifically the income tax.

    That's some pollyanna $#@!, right there. So how many unicorns did Noah have on that ark? Care to address that, or do you prefer to continue trying to distract us from that by throwing these little tantrums?

  16. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    Not exactly every step of the way, but it doesn't matter. What matters is, one, you just called me a liar then confirmed I was telling the truth, all in the same sentence. Whether you called for eliminating other taxes every step of the way, or didn't even think of it until you were called on it, you called for new tariffs and increased tariffs, which are taxes.
    Fact. And two, this particular hissy fit is you trying not to answer the charge that you accuse us of being unrealistic and boast about the real world viability of you little schemes, then say, but of course the same federal government which is currently defying the population and financing Israel's border but not ours will see these new state taxes and eliminate federal taxes -- specifically the income tax.

    That's some pollyanna $#@!, right there. So how many unicorns did Noah have on that ark? Care to address that, or do you prefer to continue trying to distract us from that by throwing these little tantrums?
    The total taxation would remain the same or decrease, you are lying and claiming I want to raise total taxation.
    Weaseling will not change that.

    Nobody ever said the feds would reduce their taxes because of state tariffs or the other way around.
    Both will eliminate or reduce other taxes of their own because of their own tariffs.
    Your strawmen get stupider all the time.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  17. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Both will eliminate or reduce other taxes of their own because of their own tariffs.
    Your strawmen get stupider all the time.
    A U.S. federal government which ever reduces or eliminates taxes doesn't even rise to the level of straw man. People have actually seen straw men. It's a unicorn.

    And you say your hare-brained strategies based on these unicorns of yours are realistic...

  18. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    A U.S. federal government which ever reduces or eliminates taxes doesn't even rise to the level of straw man. People have actually seen straw men. It's a unicorn.

    And you say your hare-brained strategies based on these unicorns of yours are realistic...
    The same can be said of any of the times you call for reducing government in any way.
    Please contact your superiors and ask for better arguments.

    We here discuss what should and could be done and work to do it.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  19. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    The same can be said of any of the times you call for reducing government in any way.
    Humanity has seen that happen. Not by using your strategy of giving them more money and power on one end and trusting them to give it up on the other end like the sort of Polyanna that's still getting boosters, but by throwing the bums out.

  20. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    Humanity has seen that happen. Not by using your strategy of giving them more money and power on one end and trusting them to give it up on the other end like the sort of Polyanna that's still getting boosters, but by throwing the bums out.
    Nobody but you wants to trust them.
    You literally do both at once, that kind of thing has been done before and can be done again.
    I already said to do it that way.
    Strawmen will not save you.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  21. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Nobody but you wants to trust them.
    Tell me more about how we need to reinstall Mr. Warp Speed again.



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  23. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Nobody but you wants to trust them.
    You literally do both at once...
    I cannot erect unconstitutional interstate tariffs nor eliminate federal taxes, and neither can you. You can't do it, you're not trusting anyone else to do it, but you expect it to be done. And you say it has been done, but can't cite an example.

    Then you hypocritically accuse me of creating straw men. It's kind of esoteric comedy. Not for everyone. But it is comedy. There's nothing serious about it.

    There is definitely no more trollish behavior than going on a site supporting a constitutionalist and libertarian and calling for customs inspectors on every state border.

  24. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    I cannot erect unconstitutional interstate tariffs nor eliminate federal taxes, and neither can you. You can't do it, you're not trusting anyone else to do it, but you expect it to be done. And you say it has been done, but can't cite an example.

    Then you hypocritically accuse me of creating straw men. It's kind of esoteric comedy. Not for everyone. But it is comedy. There's nothing serious about it.

    There is definitely no more trollish behavior than going on a site supporting a constitutionalist and libertarian and calling for customs inspectors on every state border.
    All it takes is an Amendment to change what is constitutional, it's been amended before.
    Things have been added and removed at the same time before.
    We can push for all of it to be done.
    And there is nothing more anti-liberty than supporting the other kinds of taxes.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  25. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    All it takes is an Amendment to change what is constitutional...
    Nothing to it

    News flash: I don't want interstate customs searches. So, I won't support this hare-brained scheme even if you type your fingers to the bone trying to sell it. Take your "Papers, pliss" totalitarian schemes and...

    I don't care what you do with them.

  26. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    Nothing to it

    News flash: I don't want interstate customs searches. So, I won't support this hare-brained scheme even if you type your fingers to the bone trying to sell it. Take your "Papers, pliss" totalitarian schemes and...

    I don't care what you do with them.
    Right, you prefer the mandatory search and seizure of your financial records from an income tax, the same for businesses from sales taxes and inventory taxes, and paying rents to your feudal landlord to stay on property you can never own from property taxes.

    That's SO liberty loving of you.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  27. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Right, you prefer the mandatory search and seizure of your financial records from an income tax...
    You say state tariffs will result in the end of the federal income tax.

    I say there's no reason in the world to believe that and you double down. With even less real-world evidence that it could ever happen, you then insist state tariffs are the only thing that could end the federal income tax.

    Then you start doing the liberal "if you don't support the federal Department of Education you don't want children to learn" fallacy.

    You want us to think you're not a liberal, but you can't seem to stop acting just like one.

  28. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    You say state tariffs will result in the end of the federal income tax.
    No, in the end of state income taxes.
    Federal tariffs will end the federal income tax.

    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    I say there's no reason in the world to believe that and you double down. With even less real-world evidence that it could ever happen, you then insist state tariffs are the only thing that could end the federal income tax.

    Then you start doing the liberal "if you don't support the federal Department of Education you don't want children to learn" fallacy.

    You want us to think you're not a liberal, but you can't seem to stop acting just like one.
    You just make things up and try to pretend people can't read.
    This conversation has been about how to change our tax system, since you don't want the tariffs you clearly don't want to change it away from the taxes we have, it's that simple.
    And then you muddy the waters by lying about whether it is possible (we used to have big tariffs and no income tax, we now have few tariffs and an income tax, so it is absolutely possible) and lying about what I said the state tariffs would end (I never said they would end anything federal).

    You do realize that Ron Paul has repeatedly said we should switch from the Income tax etc. to tariffs for the federal government and you are opposing him, right?
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  29. #175
    Ron Paul: We should get rid of the federal income tax and replace it with tariffs.
    Me: We should do the same at the state level even if it requires a constitutional amendment.
    You: No, it can't be done and it shouldn't be done if it could.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  30. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    No, in the end of state income taxes.
    Federal tariffs will end the federal income tax.
    When? How? Why? When has passing a tariff ever ended any other tax? Why are you acting like it's automatic? Has Trump said one thing -- just one word -- about making the repeal of other taxes a part of his proposed new tariffs?

    Has he? You want us to believe your scheme is part of the plan, when Trump hasn't even made it one of his broken campaign promises?

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    You just make things up...
    You just made that up. If progs accuse others of doing what they themselves do all the time, and you accuse others of doing what you yourself do all the time, how are you not a prog?



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  32. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Ron Paul: We should get rid of the federal income tax and replace it with tariffs.
    Me: We should do the same at the state level even if it requires a constitutional amendment.
    You: No, it can't be done and it shouldn't be done if it could.
    Show me where Ron Paul said enacting a tariff automatically ends other taxes, and/or where Trump (not you) proposed a package deal of that type.

    Show me where Ron Paul called for intranational tariffs and state customs agencies.

  33. #178
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Ron Paul: We should get rid of the federal income tax and replace it with tariffs.
    Me: We should do the same at the state level even if it requires a constitutional amendment.
    You: No, it can't be done and it shouldn't be done if it could.
    You should NEVER quote Ron Paul. You are deliberately misstating his position.

    Low, uniform tariffs as an alternative to taxing income are completely different than your socialist protectionist tariffs.
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire

  34. #179
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    When? How? Why? When has passing a tariff ever ended any other tax? Why are you acting like it's automatic? Has Trump said one thing -- just one word -- about making the repeal of other taxes a part of his proposed new tariffs?

    Has he? You want us to believe your scheme is part of the plan, when Trump hasn't even made it one of his broken campaign promises?



    You just made that up. If progs accuse others of doing what they themselves do all the time, and you accuse others of doing what you yourself do all the time, how are you not a prog?
    There you go again, making up more things.
    Nobody said anything about Trump.
    This is about what we should try to do, like what Ron Paul said we should do.
    And as you have been told repeatedly, you do it at the same time, you pass a bill ending one thing and replacing it with another.

    Go argue with Ron.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  35. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    There you go again, making up more things.
    Nobody said anything about Trump.
    It's his tariffs you're trying to sell.

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