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Thread: Thought experiment to show why protectionism damages the economy

  1. #181
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    You should NEVER quote Ron Paul. You are deliberately misstating his position.

    Low, uniform tariffs as an alternative to taxing income are completely different than your socialist protectionist tariffs.
    No, they are not.
    Once you have tariffs instead of income taxes it is just a question of how high they will be.
    Tariffs are protectionist just by existing, it's only a matter of how protectionist.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment



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  3. #182
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    It's his tariffs you're trying to sell.
    No, I want more tariffs and higher than Trump.
    There is another thread or maybe more for his tariffs, this thread is and always has been about tariffs as a concept, not about any plan of Trump's.

    You just keep looking for ways to lie and muddy the waters because you keep losing the argument.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  4. #183
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    Show me where Ron Paul said enacting a tariff automatically ends other taxes, and/or where Trump (not you) proposed a package deal of that type.

    Show me where Ron Paul called for intranational tariffs and state customs agencies.
    Neither thing is what I claimed.
    You just keep making things up.
    And you are terrible at it, the post you quoted makes it quite clear that applying the same proinciple to the states is MY idea not Ron's.

    And the fact that Ron didn't go into the details of how to replace one tax with another while I have (by doing both parts in the same bill) only makes his position weaker than mine.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  5. #184
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    No, they are not.
    Ron Paul says they are. Like the man said, you're misrepresenting his position.



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  7. #185
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    Ron Paul says they are. Like the man said, you're misrepresenting his position.
    Tell me what the difference is other than the amount.
    Do Ron's tariffs not raise the price of imported goods and thus give domestic producers that much of an advantage?
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  8. #186
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Tariffs are protectionist just by existing, it's only a matter of how protectionist.
    Incorrect. A low, uniform import tariff on all goods entering our ports is completely different than high selective tariffs on certain products, from certain countries, based on the political clout of their domestic competition. The former is a less-obtrusive way for government funding. The latter is a socialist scheme intent on giving political favors at the expense of the American consumer and the economy.

    You know NOTHING about the philosophy of Ron Paul. You LOVE you some socialism as long as it's your dictator in control of it.
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire

  9. #187
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    And the fact that Ron didn't go into the details of how to replace one tax with another while I have (by doing both parts in the same bill) only makes his position weaker than mine.
    And how do you propose to make that happen?

    Ron Paul is weaker than you because he has been in Congress and tried to really do real things, while you are almighty like every armchair quarterback. Only thing is, he lives in the real world. You just go around accusing others of having unrealistic theories, while shoveling your own.

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Tell me what the difference is other than the amount.
    Did the word "uniform" go in one of your eyes and out the other? Wasn't there anything in between to slow it down?
    Last edited by acptulsa; 04-18-2024 at 06:27 AM.

  10. #188
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    Incorrect. A low, uniform import tariff on all goods entering our ports is completely different than high selective tariffs on certain products, from certain countries, based on the political clout of their domestic competition. The former is a less-obtrusive way for government funding. The latter is a socialist scheme intent on giving political favors at the expense of the American consumer and the economy.

    You know NOTHING about the philosophy of Ron Paul. You LOVE you some socialism as long as it's your dictator in control of it.
    LOL

    Ron wants tariffs and tariffs give an advantage to domestic producers.
    Cry more.

    The details, like how high the tariffs are, and if they reflect the friend/enemy status of the foreign state or its trade policies towards us are mere details by comparison to the basic principle that tariffs are the best form of taxation, and if you think any government policy or tax can or ever will be implemented without political influence you are naive in the extreme.
    Ron worked in Congress, he knows how the sausage is made even in the best of times and that it will always be made that way to one degree or another, that's just human nature, but he still wants tariffs instead of other taxes and so do I.

    You are the one who loves socialism and slave labor as long as it takes place in other countries and benefits your wallet in the short term.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  11. #189
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    And how do you propose to make that happen?

    Ron Paul is weaker than you because he has been in Congress and tried to really do real things, while you are almighty like every armchair quarterback. Only thing is, he lives in the real world. You just go around accusing others of having unrealistic theories, while shoveling your own.
    So, When Ron proposes changing from one form of tax to another you agree, but when I do the same thing you oppose it, even though I give a better specific plan for implementing it.
    I propose to make it happen the same way Ron proposes to make it happen, through advocacy and campaigning for it.
    You oppose it, you don't want anyone to try to actually do it, you want to just leave it as a disembodied theory you can virtue signal by agreeing with.



    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    Did the word "uniform" go in one of your eyes and out the other? Wasn't there anything in between to slow it down?
    It's irrelevant.
    A mere detail that would not exist in any real world implementation and would not affect the principle if it did.

    Ron wants tariffs and tariffs give an advantage to domestic producers.
    Cry more.

    The details, like how high the tariffs are, and if they reflect the friend/enemy status of the foreign state or its trade policies towards us are mere details by comparison to the basic principle that tariffs are the best form of taxation, and if you think any government policy or tax can or ever will be implemented without political influence you are naive in the extreme.
    Ron worked in Congress, he knows how the sausage is made even in the best of times and that it will always be made that way to one degree or another, that's just human nature, but he still wants tariffs instead of other taxes and so do I.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  12. #190
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Ron worked in Congress, he knows how the sausage is made even in the best of times and that it will always be made that way to one degree or another, that's just human nature, but he still wants tariffs instead of other taxes and so do I.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Ron worked in Congress, he knows how the sausage is made even in the best of times and that it will always be made that way to one degree or another, that's just human nature, but he still wants tariffs instead of other taxes and so do I.
    Well, boys, we've reduced him to spamming like a cracked vinyl record again. Suppose he really thinks spamming us will cause us to unsee the difference between uniform tariffs and protectionist tariffs? Suppose he really thinks spamming us will cause us to unsee the fact that tariffs couldn't possibly raise the amount of money Trump gave Big Pharma to poison us?
    Last edited by acptulsa; 04-18-2024 at 06:46 AM.

  13. #191
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    Well, boys, we've reduced him to spamming like a cracked vinyl record again. Suppose he really thinks spamming us will cause us to unsee the difference between uniform tariffs and protectionist tariffs?
    You can't explain a significant difference.


    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    Suppose he really thinks spamming us will cause us to unsee the fact that tariffs couldn't possibly raise the amount of money Trump gave Big Pharma to poison us?
    So, you are in favor of tariffs instead of other taxes now?
    Because I have been all along, I told you they had less drawbacks and a few beneficial aspects.

    Can't you even keep track of what side you are on?
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  14. #192
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    You can't explain a significant difference.
    CaptUSA has been there, done that, and it went in one of your ears and whooshed right back out the other at the speed sound travels in air. You don't even seem to have noticed.

    You repeat yourself like a spammer. I don't.



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  16. #193
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    LOL

    Ron wants tariffs and tariffs give an advantage to domestic producers.
    First off, Ron doesn't want tariffs. He'll accept low, uniform tariffs as a less obtrusive alternative to other forms of taxation. To state that he wants them is wholly disingenuous.

    Secondly, the purpose of low, uniform tariffs is NOT to give an advantage to domestic producers. That's what protectionist tariffs desire. And they attempt to accomplish that at the expense of the American consumer. The purpose of low, uniform tariffs on all imports, regardless of product or nation of origin, is to provide the federal government with some minimal operating revenue so they don't have to resort to other forms of wealth extraction from the American public (income taxes, debt, currency devaluation).

    You can't just say all tariffs are the same and Ron wants them. That's a demonstrable lie.
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire

  17. #194
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    You can't just say all tariffs are the same and Ron wants them. That's a demonstrable lie.
    Obviously he can tell baldfaced lies in order to combat what he considers misinformation.

    Remind you of anyone in the news?

    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Banana View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Banana View Post

  18. #195
    You can argue about the intent but what matters is the effect, not the intent.
    Uniform tariffs provide an advantage to domestic producers, it's a simple fact.
    Ron finds that to be much better than the bad effects of other taxes, I find it to be a beneficial effect.

    The difference between low uniform tariffs and what I want (high tariffs on anything we can make here) is a mere matter of detail and intensity.

    Cry more.
    Last edited by Swordsmyth; 04-19-2024 at 05:46 AM.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  19. #196
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Cry more.
    About what? About what fate awaits a nation when its people decide being wilfully ignorant is a virtue?

  20. #197
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire

  21. #198
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  22. #199
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  23. #200
    Fearmongering over apples?

    Is this a paid commercial program about why we can't live without the FDA?

    By the way, the internal customs stations you were having fascist wet dreams about are a reality, when it comes to food. And guess what "favor" Big Daddy Government is doing to us with that crap...

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    It's easier to sell foreign meat in the US than local meat. Did you know that to ship meat across state lines it has to be inspected by both a state inspection facility and the federal USDA facility? Their inspections are identical. Because there are few federal facilities or lack of capacity, most local farms can't ship across the country because they can't get inspected by USDA. Foreign meat, however, can be shipped all over the country as long as they have been inspected at its country of origin by a "similar" org to the USDA; even though USDA and state inspection facilities are the same, local producers can not. In short, it's easier to buy foreign meat in the US than US-raised meat. Unless of course, it comes from one of the massive aggregated US Packers.
    https://twitter.com/ChefGruel/status...38958962708813
    An outcome easily predicted by anyone who doesn't have a power fetish, and does have a lick of sense.
    Last edited by acptulsa; 04-23-2024 at 06:01 AM.



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  25. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    Fearmongering over apples?

    Is this a paid commercial program about why we can't live without the FDA?

    By the way, the internal customs stations you were having fascist wet dreams about are a reality, when it comes to food. And guess what "favor" Big Daddy Government is doing to us with that crap...
    Lady liberty is already in a coma from the apples you free trade cultists let the old hags of the world peddle.

    Hopefully it's not too late for us dwarves to drive the hags away and revive her.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  26. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Lady liberty is already in a coma from the apples you free trade cultists let the old hags of the world peddle.

    Hopefully it's not too late for us dwarves to drive the hags away and revive her.
    It's really easy... If you are afraid of the apples and need a politically-influenced bureaucracy to save you, don't eat the apples. But that's NOT what you want. You want that politically-influenced bureaucracy to prevent anyone else from buying apples. Thanks, socialist... I think I'll decide for myself.
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire

  27. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Lady liberty is already in a coma from the apples you free trade cultists let the old hags of the world peddle.
    And the PATRIOT Act had nothing to do with it? Every single one of our problems are due to free trade advocates giving corporations cover to implement global managed trade? All of them?

    Hyperbole.

    Is that all you have to say about the demonstrable existing proof that internal customs hurt domestic producers?
    Last edited by acptulsa; 04-23-2024 at 06:25 AM.

  28. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    It's really easy... If you are afraid of the apples and need a politically-influenced bureaucracy to save you, don't eat the apples. But that's NOT what you want. You want that politically-influenced bureaucracy to prevent anyone else from buying apples. Thanks, socialist... I think I'll decide for myself.
    When you eat the poisoned apples my liberty is destroyed.
    You are poisoning me by eating the poison apples.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  29. #205
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    And the PATRIOT Act had nothing to do with it?
    Nobody said that.
    There are multiple factors.


    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post

    Is that all you have to say about the demonstrable existing proof that internal customs hurt domestic producers?
    The problem is that foreign trade is being favored, internal tariffs should be capped at a fraction of external tariffs.
    And the problem is not tariffs, it's federal bureaucracy.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  30. #206

  31. #207
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    When you eat the poisoned apples my liberty is destroyed.
    You are poisoning me by eating the poison apples.
    Every socialist avers that other people's freedom is threatening their liberty. You are no different.


    In reality, other people's freedom threaten their government handouts and protection.
    Last edited by CaptUSA; 04-24-2024 at 05:52 AM.
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire

  32. #208
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    In reality, other people's freedom threaten their government handouts and protection.
    There are a lot of socialists who oppose free speech for others because it threatens their conceit that their brainwashing made them intelligent.



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  34. #209
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    Every socialist avers that other people's freedom is threatening their liberty. You are no different.


    In reality, other people's freedom threaten their government handouts and protection.
    Liberty is a group issue, it's how society treats the individual and his rights.
    When you have an anti-liberty society the individual gets Ruby Ridge and Waco.

    When you allow globalists and foreign communists to destroy our liberty through Free Trade you destroy my liberty, and yours as well.

    You are the one taking handouts from foreign communists and globalists to sell my liberty for a mess of pottage.
    That's literally the sales pitch in this thread "look at all this cheap stuff they're giving me".
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  35. #210
    CaptUSA: “Just leave people free to decide for themselves how and with whom they spend their hard earned money. That’s called freedom.”

    Swordy: “No! I (or my duely elected govt agents) get to decide who they may purchase from and how much, and if they try to circumvent these rules we get to send armed thugs out to beat them, kidnap them & throw them in rape cages or kill them. THAT’S freedom.”

    Hmmmm……
    Last edited by CCTelander; 04-25-2024 at 05:46 AM.
    Chris

    "Government ... does not exist of necessity, but rather by virtue of a tragic, almost comical combination of klutzy, opportunistic terrorism against sitting ducks whom it pretends to shelter, plus our childish phobia of responsibility, praying to be exempted from the hard reality of life on life's terms." Wolf DeVoon

    "...Make America Great Again. I'm interested in making American FREE again. Then the greatness will come automatically."Ron Paul

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