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Thread: DC circuit court rejects immunity for Trump, SCOTUS appeal is pending

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Invisible Man View Post
    No. For criminal trials, indictment is the first step.
    Just stop. If they're in elected office, indictment is prohibited. Therefore, in those particular cases, impeachment is a necessary step, and necessarily the first step.



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  3. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    Just stop. If they're in elected office, indictment is prohibited.
    1. Is that in the Constitution?
    2. This isn't just about people currently in elected office, but also after they leave office.
    There is nothing to fear from globalism, free trade and a single worldwide currency, but a globalism where free trade is competitively subsidized by each nation, a continuous trade war is dictated by the WTO, and the single currency is pure fiat, fear is justified. That type of globalism is destined to collapse into economic despair, inflationism and protectionism and managed by resurgent militant nationalism.
    Ron Paul
    Congressional Record (March 13, 2001)



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  5. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Invisible Man View Post
    1. Is that in the Constitution?
    2. This isn't just about people currently in elected office, but also after they leave office.
    Try reading it once. You'll need go no farther than Article One, Section Three to answer these questions.

  6. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    Try reading it once. You'll need go no farther than Article One, Section Three to answer these questions.
    Done. Still can't find it. Can you?
    There is nothing to fear from globalism, free trade and a single worldwide currency, but a globalism where free trade is competitively subsidized by each nation, a continuous trade war is dictated by the WTO, and the single currency is pure fiat, fear is justified. That type of globalism is destined to collapse into economic despair, inflationism and protectionism and managed by resurgent militant nationalism.
    Ron Paul
    Congressional Record (March 13, 2001)

  7. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Invisible Man View Post
    1. Is that in the Constitution?
    2. This isn't just about people currently in elected office, but also after they leave office.
    Quote Originally Posted by Article One, Section Three
    Judgment in Cases of Impeachment shall not extend further than to removal from Office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any Office of honor, Trust or Profit under the United States: but the Party convicted shall nevertheless be liable and subject to Indictment, Trial, Judgment and Punishment, according to Law.
    Quote Originally Posted by Invisible Man View Post
    Done. Still can't find it. Can you?
    Why are you wasting my time? No one can help you when you get like this.

  8. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    Why are you wasting my time? No one can help you when you get like this.
    You just quoted the same thing I quoted before.

    And it doesn't say anything remotely like what you said.
    There is nothing to fear from globalism, free trade and a single worldwide currency, but a globalism where free trade is competitively subsidized by each nation, a continuous trade war is dictated by the WTO, and the single currency is pure fiat, fear is justified. That type of globalism is destined to collapse into economic despair, inflationism and protectionism and managed by resurgent militant nationalism.
    Ron Paul
    Congressional Record (March 13, 2001)

  9. #37
    Judgment in Cases of Impeachment shall not extend further than to removal from Office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any Office of honor, Trust or Profit under the United States: but the Party convicted shall nevertheless be liable and subject to Indictment, Trial, Judgment and Punishment, according to Law.
    acptulsa and CaptUSA, is the above the basis for what both of you were saying? Or is there something more?

    Because if that's it, I don't see it. There is nothing there that makes lack of impeachment a reason that someone either in office or who has formerly held office can't be indicted for a crime.
    There is nothing to fear from globalism, free trade and a single worldwide currency, but a globalism where free trade is competitively subsidized by each nation, a continuous trade war is dictated by the WTO, and the single currency is pure fiat, fear is justified. That type of globalism is destined to collapse into economic despair, inflationism and protectionism and managed by resurgent militant nationalism.
    Ron Paul
    Congressional Record (March 13, 2001)

  10. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Invisible Man View Post
    acptulsa and CaptUSA, is the above the basis for what both of you were saying? Or is there something more?

    Because if that's it, I don't see it. There is nothing there that makes lack of impeachment a reason that someone either in office or who has formerly held office can't be indicted for a crime.
    Admitting that the indicated section really is relevant is always a nice bone when you get around to begging people to play your semantic games. But why do you always poison the bait by pretending we said something else and that you disagree with us because you agree with what we said?

    I told you, it's not my day to play semantic games with you.

  11. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Invisible Man View Post
    acptulsa and CaptUSA, is the above the basis for what both of you were saying? Or is there something more?

    Because if that's it, I don't see it. There is nothing there that makes lack of impeachment a reason that someone either in office or who has formerly held office can't be indicted for a crime.
    Kinda - It's been a long-standing principle (starting with Justice Story in the 1800's, I believe) that a President cannot be subject to arrest while performing the duties of his office. That's why an impeachment is necessary prior to indictment. This came up in Spiro Agnew's case in the 70's when it was ruled that this privilege didn't confer to the Vice President. It's been Justice Department precedent for a long time. This has even been the precedent for once a President leaves office if the action was taken during his official term.

    Now, we can debate whether or not that precedent should stand. And we can rejoice that now the door has been opened. But what we cannot say is what the Count was saying that the President is "above the law". It's just that there's a process that has historically been followed.
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire

  12. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    Admitting that the indicated section really is relevant is always a nice bone when you get around to begging people to play your semantic games. But why do you always poison the bait by pretending we said something else and that you disagree with us because you agree with what we said?

    I told you, it's not my day to play semantic games with you.

    I don't see any semantic games on my part. You made an assertion, and then when pushed to support it, you quoted a part of the Constitution that doesn't support your claim.

    So, is it fair to say that after all your bluster and talking down to me like an idiot, in fact you are not aware of anything the Constitution says that supports your assertions?

    When you sat there pretending to know what you were talking about, was that all a lie?
    There is nothing to fear from globalism, free trade and a single worldwide currency, but a globalism where free trade is competitively subsidized by each nation, a continuous trade war is dictated by the WTO, and the single currency is pure fiat, fear is justified. That type of globalism is destined to collapse into economic despair, inflationism and protectionism and managed by resurgent militant nationalism.
    Ron Paul
    Congressional Record (March 13, 2001)



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  14. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    Kinda - It's been a long-standing principle (starting with Justice Story in the 1800's, I believe) that a President cannot be subject to arrest while performing the duties of his office. That's why an impeachment is necessary prior to indictment. This came up in Spiro Agnew's case in the 70's when it was ruled that this privilege didn't confer to the Vice President. It's been Justice Department precedent for a long time. This has even been the precedent for once a President leaves office if the action was taken during his official term.

    Now, we can debate whether or not that precedent should stand. And we can rejoice that now the door has been opened. But what we cannot say is what the Count was saying that the President is "above the law". It's just that there's a process that has historically been followed.
    If this is true, why did Trump's own attorneys argue during the impeachment proceedings that impeachment was inappropriate after the end of his term of office and that Trump should be tried in the courts instead?

    During President Trump’s 2021 impeachment proceedings for incitement of insurrection, his counsel argued that instead of post-Presidency impeachment, the appropriate vehicle for “investigation, prosecution, and punishment” is “the article III courts,” as “[w]e have a judicial process” and “an investigative process . . . to which no former officeholder is immune.” 167 CONG. REC. S607 (daily ed. Feb. 9, 2021); see also id. at S693 (daily ed. Feb. 12, 2021) (“[T]he text of the Constitution . . . makes very clear that a former President is subject to criminal sanction after his Presidency for any illegal acts he commits.”)
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/docum...c96f54696b.pdf

    Page 34
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Pinochet is the model
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Liberty preserving authoritarianism.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Enforced internal open borders was one of the worst elements of the Constitution.

  15. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    If this is true, why did Trump's own attorneys argue during the impeachment proceedings that impeachment was inappropriate after the end of his term of office and that Trump should be tried in the courts instead?



    https://www.washingtonpost.com/docum...c96f54696b.pdf

    Page 34
    Just exactly WTF did he say to contradict that?

    Nothing.

    Why did Ford pardon Nixon?

    He wouldn't have gotten the job if he hadn't promised to.

    More semantic games.

  16. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    If this is true, why did Trump's own attorneys argue during the impeachment proceedings that impeachment was inappropriate after the end of his term of office and that Trump should be tried in the courts instead?
    Seriously? Why do lawyers argue things that they believe will benefit their clients?? Is that really the question you're asking? Why did Clinton's lawyers argue that even civil proceedings couldn't be held against him during his term, even though the actions occurred prior? Lawyers do what lawyers do.

    But again, you're distracting - your original statement was that his supporters were saying that he is "literally above the law". And you called it a sign of the horrible education system. But in fact, this is a question of precedent, binding OLC memos, and process for administering the law.
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire

  17. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    But again, you're distracting - your original statement was that his supporters were saying that he is "literally above the law". And you called it a sign of the horrible education system. But in fact, this is a question of precedent, binding OLC memos, and process for administering the law.
    It's not a distraction, there's no difference between the two. It is not a coincidence that they thought that he couldn't be impeached then and that he must be impeached now. They think what they're told to think.

    That's the whole premise of my post. Any honest person who has even the foggiest notion of our founding would reject the idiotic talking points these chuds are regurgitating.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Pinochet is the model
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Liberty preserving authoritarianism.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Enforced internal open borders was one of the worst elements of the Constitution.

  18. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    Just exactly WTF did he say to contradict that?

    Nothing.

    Why did Ford pardon Nixon?

    He wouldn't have gotten the job if he hadn't promised to.

    More semantic games.
    Nixon was never impeached. Ford's pardon of Nixon presupposed that he could still have been criminally indicted in spite of not having been impeached.
    There is nothing to fear from globalism, free trade and a single worldwide currency, but a globalism where free trade is competitively subsidized by each nation, a continuous trade war is dictated by the WTO, and the single currency is pure fiat, fear is justified. That type of globalism is destined to collapse into economic despair, inflationism and protectionism and managed by resurgent militant nationalism.
    Ron Paul
    Congressional Record (March 13, 2001)

  19. #46
    You can't put gas in the car until you remove the gas cap.

    The gas cap got lost years ago. It doesn't have a gas cap.

    It used to. Therefore, that's a necessary step.

    Sounds like excuse making by someone who doesn't want to see that car fueled.

  20. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Invisible Man View Post
    Nixon was never impeached. Ford's pardon of Nixon presupposed that he could still have been criminally indicted in spite of not having been impeached.
    Just for the sake of accuracy, your timeline is a bit off. The House Judiciary Committee had an investigation and sent articles of impeachment to the full house for a vote. Senate republicans told Nixon that they had enough votes to convict and remove him from office. Then before the vote in the House, Nixon resigned. Then, Ford pardoned Nixon which ended the impeachment proceeding which was still active. Because the impeachment process was ended and Nixon had the pardon, it also ended any indictments. Ford's pardon didn't presuppose that absent an impeachment conviction, he could still be indicted and prosecuted, it ended the possibility of either.
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire

  21. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    You can't put gas in the car until you remove the gas cap.

    The gas cap got lost years ago. It doesn't have a gas cap.

    It used to. Therefore, that's a necessary step.

    Sounds like excuse making by someone who doesn't want to see that car fueled.
    That's quite an elaborate metaphor. I will see if I can translate what you're saying:

    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    You can't put gas in the car until you remove the gas cap.
    = You can't indict a federal office holder unless you first remove them from office via impeachment.

    The Constitution doesn't say this (as you are well aware). But let's go with it. I get that's what you think.

    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    The gas cap got lost years ago. It doesn't have a gas cap.
    = Trump is no longer in office, so removing him from office via impeachment cannot still be a prerequisite for indicting him.

    Makes sense to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    It used to. Therefore, that's a necessary step.
    = Trump used to hold office, so even though he isn't still in office he still has to be impeached before he can be criminally indicted.

    That's a weird thing to believe. Do you have a reason for thinking this?

    Or did I totally botch your metaphor?

    If I did, that's on you.
    There is nothing to fear from globalism, free trade and a single worldwide currency, but a globalism where free trade is competitively subsidized by each nation, a continuous trade war is dictated by the WTO, and the single currency is pure fiat, fear is justified. That type of globalism is destined to collapse into economic despair, inflationism and protectionism and managed by resurgent militant nationalism.
    Ron Paul
    Congressional Record (March 13, 2001)



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  23. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    Immunity protects voters from having the representatives they elected removed and prevented from voting by whatever random, scurrilous charges anyone cares to toss out there. Want to get your bill passed? Press phony charges against members of the opposition, then drop them after the vote.

    Impeachment is the process the body uses to deprive actual criminals of that position and that immunity, so the law can proceed against them. Immunity does not cover ex-office holders. The Court was right about that.

    This is just Trump channeling Nixon. It doesn't mean a damned thing to anyone but his cultists.
    Is what you're saying is that they only have immunity while in office and once out can be charged with crimes?
    My two daughters and I were gang-raped by some of the Newcomers. It landed us in the hospital for 3 weeks as several bones were broken. I don't blame them, it was a sexual emergency and I wasn't about to go all white privilege and deny them the release they needed, especially after being stuck in a hotel for months. I see the Newcomers as family now. They are on our side and will help us stop Trump. It is a small price to pay. Anything but Trump.

    -GLP poster

  24. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by susano View Post
    Is what you're saying is that they only have immunity while in office and once out can be charged with crimes?
    Not me. This thing:

    Quote Originally Posted by U. S. Constitution Article I Section 3
    Judgment in Cases of Impeachment shall not extend further than to removal from Office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any Office of honor, Trust or Profit under the United States: but the Party convicted shall nevertheless be liable and subject to Indictment, Trial, Judgment and Punishment, according to Law.

  25. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    Not me. This thing:
    Sarcasm?
    There is nothing to fear from globalism, free trade and a single worldwide currency, but a globalism where free trade is competitively subsidized by each nation, a continuous trade war is dictated by the WTO, and the single currency is pure fiat, fear is justified. That type of globalism is destined to collapse into economic despair, inflationism and protectionism and managed by resurgent militant nationalism.
    Ron Paul
    Congressional Record (March 13, 2001)

  26. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    Not me. This thing:
    Oh, that thing, lol. I haven't read it in a long time and don't even remember that. Good to know. I'm sure the DoJ will get right on it and start charging all of the war criminals.
    My two daughters and I were gang-raped by some of the Newcomers. It landed us in the hospital for 3 weeks as several bones were broken. I don't blame them, it was a sexual emergency and I wasn't about to go all white privilege and deny them the release they needed, especially after being stuck in a hotel for months. I see the Newcomers as family now. They are on our side and will help us stop Trump. It is a small price to pay. Anything but Trump.

    -GLP poster

  27. #53

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