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Thread: Tucker Carlson - "Libertarian economics was a scam"

  1. #1

    Tucker Carlson - "Libertarian economics was a scam"

    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Banana View Post
    Tucker Carlson on Global Populism, the Censorship-Industrial Regime, Israel/Ukraine, His New Network, & More | SYSTEM UPDATE #200
    https://rumble.com/v41ep7r-system-update-show-200.html
    {Glenn Greenwald | 15 December 2023}


    https://twitter.com/USAB4L/status/1736104758635876366
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul

    Proponent of real science.
    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.



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  3. #2
    Out of context? Greenwald responds:

    He's not talking about libertarianism in the doctrinaire and academic sense that you would hear of at a Mises conference.

    He's talking about economic policies of people like Paul Ryan and Mitt Romney: make the rich richer based on the claim that everyone's welfare is improved.
    ...
    https://twitter.com/ggreenwald/statu...86673262277050
    In this video, I'm the one who is asking the questions. The person providing the answers is Tucker Carlson.

    And I think he was clear what he was critiquing: "hedge fund capitalism": policies designed to enrich the wealthiest at everyone else's expense. He was pretty clear.
    ...
    https://twitter.com/ggreenwald/statu...85937484865967
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul

    Proponent of real science.
    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    Out of context? Greenwald responds:...

    ... "hedge fund capitalism"
    This brings up a point I'd like to make. This use of "-capitalism" in such manners is, IMO, will-advised in the same way that it is so for "anarchy", with the absurd "anarcho-<x>".

    Such usage implies flavors of capitalism. Strictly speaking it's really not that big a deal, but given that the average man is a repulsively willful idiot...

    Capitalism is a tool. It's value turns on how it is used. That this is so poorly understood is not just appalling from the standpoint of personal intellectual aesthetics, it is bluntly dangerous. I know this isn't going to change, but thought the point is worth raising.
    freedomisobvious.blogspot.com

    There is only one correct way: freedom. All other solutions are non-solutions.

    It appears that artificial intelligence is at least slightly superior to natural stupidity.

    Our words make us the ghosts that we are.

    Convincing the world he didn't exist was the Devil's second greatest trick; the first was convincing us that God didn't exist.

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    This brings up a point I'd like to make. This use of "-capitalism" in such manners is, IMO, will-advised in the same way that it is so for "anarchy", with the absurd "anarcho-<x>".

    Such usage implies flavors of capitalism. Strictly speaking it's really not that big a deal, but given that the average man is a repulsively willful idiot...

    Capitalism is a tool. It's value turns on how it is used. That this is so poorly understood is not just appalling from the standpoint of personal intellectual aesthetics, it is bluntly dangerous. I know this isn't going to change, but thought the point is worth raising.
    Good point. And your average leftist defines “capitalism” as outrageously wealthy people engaging in abusive behavior which also includes fraud, theft and murder. To them, capitalism represents oppressors, while they are the victims.

    Dangerous ignorance, brought about by lies, propaganda and brainwashing.
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul

    Proponent of real science.
    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    Good point. And your average leftist defines “capitalism” as outrageously wealthy people engaging in abusive behavior which also includes fraud, theft and murder. To them, capitalism represents oppressors, while they are the victims.

    Dangerous ignorance, brought about by lies, propaganda and brainwashing.
    Exactly. In order to understand what the word really means, you have to understand economics. That's why they're able to put over their scam definition. And the reason their misdefinition of anarchy goes over is similar.

    Last edited by acptulsa; 12-20-2023 at 10:05 AM.

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    Exactly. In order to understand what the word really means, you have to understand economics. That's why they're able to put over their scam definition. And the reason their misdefinition of anarchy goes over is similar.

    And try to get them to define “libertarianism”.

    “It’s where people don’t want government to police evil capitalists or criminals”.

    Ironically, that must mean we have the most libertarian government in history right now!
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul

    Proponent of real science.
    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  8. #7

    Tucker Carlson - "Libertarian economics was a scam"



    Apparently the reason we have so much ugliness in the world is too much freedom. We need people like Tucker Carlson to centrally manage the economy for us with the purely altruistic motives they are bound to have.
    There is nothing to fear from globalism, free trade and a single worldwide currency, but a globalism where free trade is competitively subsidized by each nation, a continuous trade war is dictated by the WTO, and the single currency is pure fiat, fear is justified. That type of globalism is destined to collapse into economic despair, inflationism and protectionism and managed by resurgent militant nationalism.
    Ron Paul
    Congressional Record (March 13, 2001)

  9. #8



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  11. #9
    Yo, Tucker you $#@!er. Did all those people a century ago just imagine the Roaring Twenties?

  12. #10
    we have that?
    FLIP THOSE FLAGS, THE NATION IS IN DISTRESS!


    why I should worship the state (who apparently is the only party that can possess guns without question).
    The state's only purpose is to kill and control. Why do you worship it? - Sola_Fide

    Baptiste said.
    At which point will Americans realize that creating an unaccountable institution that is able to pass its liability on to tax-payers is immoral and attracts sociopaths?

  13. #11
    Personally I have no problem with dollar stores
    Do something Danke

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by jkr View Post
    we have that?
    Yeah, news to me. When was this libertarian economy, like, which dates?!
    Jer. 11:18-20. "The Kingdom of God has come upon you." -- Matthew 12:28

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Invisible Man View Post
    Apparently the reason we have so much ugliness in the world is too much freedom. We need people like Tucker Carlson to centrally manage the economy for us with the purely altruistic motives they are bound to have.
    I like Tucker most of the time, but this is Grade A Babbling Buffoonery and so he's gonna get a swat-down here. "I don't think any of that [economic theory] works. These are boring conversations, but what I think you need to ask..." This template can be applied to literally anything... "I don't think the theory behind 2+2=4 works. These are boring conversations, but what I think you need to ask..." So now 2+2=whateveryouwant because Tucker is "bored" of understanding why 2+2=4 and not something else.



    Tucker should consider getting un-"bored" before spouting off utter nonsense...
    Last edited by ClaytonB; 12-20-2023 at 08:38 PM.
    Jer. 11:18-20. "The Kingdom of God has come upon you." -- Matthew 12:28

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    Out of context? Greenwald responds:
    Then pick a different label. The marxist socialists already stole the word "liberal" from us, and we should have never given it up. Don't let them steal libertarian too. What the hell is next, "freedomarian"?! "Freedomite"??
    Jer. 11:18-20. "The Kingdom of God has come upon you." -- Matthew 12:28

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by oyarde View Post
    Personally I have no problem with dollar stores
    Only difference I see compared to back in the day is you used to see five & ten cent stores, a.k.a. five and dimes. I suppose if $#@!er was alive and rich eighty years ago, he'd have turned his nose up at them too.

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    Only difference I see compared to back in the day is you used to see five & ten cent stores, a.k.a. five and dimes. I suppose if $#@!er was alive and rich eighty years ago, he'd have turned his nose up at them too.
    Yeah, the fail-level of "Dollar Stores are ugly" is off the scale of my Fail-O-Meter, the meter's pegged. The Dollar Store is one of the last problems or even symptom of problems in our economy that would need to be dealt with. It's not a sign of anything being wrong with the economy. The ever-rising prices of everything across-the-board due to, oh I don't know, infinity-cash rolling off the smoking-hot printing-press at the Fed 24x7/365... now that is a symptom of something wrong with the economy... but hey, that would be "libertarian economics" and we can't have that, because it's oh-so-booooring...
    Jer. 11:18-20. "The Kingdom of God has come upon you." -- Matthew 12:28



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by ClaytonB View Post
    Yeah, the fail-level of "Dollar Stores are ugly" is off the scale of my Fail-O-Meter, the meter's pegged. The Dollar Store is one of the last problems or even symptom of problems in our economy that would need to be dealt with. It's not a sign of anything being wrong with the economy. The ever-rising prices of everything across-the-board due to, oh I don't know, infinity-cash rolling off the smoking-hot printing-press at the Fed 24x7/365... now that is a symptom of something wrong with the economy... but hey, that would be "libertarian economics" and we can't have that, because it's oh-so-booooring...
    Just Tucker trying to be attractive to Greenwald's audience. Remember, he's trying to start his own empire... Need to appeal to lots of people.
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    Just Tucker trying to be attractive to Greenwald's audience. Remember, he's trying to start his own empire... Need to appeal to lots of people.
    Sure, I get that. I have no problem with presenting your views in a manner that will be appealing to an audience that probably doesn't agree with your core principles. But here, Tucker is just throwing out what we would have assumed were his core principles... he shined a spotlight on Milei by doing an interview with him, and the tone of his interview was very much sympathetic not only to Milei's anti-socialist views, but also his strong stance on freedom. America is supposed to be "the freedom brand" among the nations. That's supposed to be our thing. And Tucker waves the flag and vigorously associates himself with that brand. But then he spews verbal-vomit like the above and that throws everything into question, especially in Clown World with its ever-present controlled-opp and other shadowy weirdness hiding behind every blind corner. Attacking Dollar Stores is just bonkers... this is 100% first-world problem whining. Grandma buying $5 of tinsel to put on the Christmas tree from the Dollar Store isn't what's wrong with the economy. There is a criticism that can be leveled at corporatism generally, because they are all in bed with the Fed to one extent or another, through the finance/banking system. But that's not the criticism he's making, in fact, he's singling out Dollar Store for being "ugly" by which I think he means something along the lines of cheap Chinese goods killing off local businesses, or something like. To whatever extent that that is true of Dollar Store (seems to me Amazon and Walmart are at least 1000x as guilty), it is because of its implicit subsidy -- along with all major corporations -- through the Fed and the banking/finance/regulation system which protects them from genuine competition. And the whole discussion is framed by Greenwald as a demonstration that Tucker is actually quite socialist (fawning the audience), which characterization Tucker does not even asterisk or clarify, so he means what he says -- he thinks that market competition is ugly, and that relatively small-time corporations in the grand scheme of things, like Dollar Store, are somehow the main symbol of what is wrong with the economy. What is wrong with the economy? How about BlackRock? How about FAANG/Big Tech? How about all the commercial banks? How about the NYC casino called Wall St. How about the Fed? How about infinite debt being poured over our children's heads? By continuing to look away from the actual problems which are beyond obvious at this point, commentators like Tucker actually lead people astray, by giving them the false sense that they have "understood" what is "really wrong". Yeah, the ugliness of Dollar Stores. That's what's really wrong with America...
    Jer. 11:18-20. "The Kingdom of God has come upon you." -- Matthew 12:28

  22. #19
    Greenwald And Carlson Get It Wrong | Part Of The Problem 1069
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBRB9Qftdfo
    {Dave Smith | 21 December 2023}

    On this episode of Part Of The Problem, Dave and Robbie take a look at a recent segment from System Update, where Glenn Greenwald [and Tucker Carlson] discuss the economy and their ideas about libertarian economics. We then take a look at Bill Maher and his most recent take on the conflict in Gaza.

    The Bastiat Collection · FREE PDF · FREE EPUB · PAPER
    Frédéric Bastiat (1801-1850)

    • "When law and morality are in contradiction to each other, the citizen finds himself in the cruel alternative of either losing his moral sense, or of losing his respect for the law."
      -- The Law (p. 54)
    • "Government is that great fiction, through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else."
      -- Government (p. 99)
    • "[W]ar is always begun in the interest of the few, and at the expense of the many."
      -- Economic Sophisms - Second Series (p. 312)
    • "There are two principles that can never be reconciled - Liberty and Constraint."
      -- Harmonies of Political Economy - Book One (p. 447)

    · tu ne cede malis sed contra audentior ito ·

  23. #20
    Jer. 11:18-20. "The Kingdom of God has come upon you." -- Matthew 12:28

  24. #21
    What in hell?

    OK, preface: I don't trust Carlson, just as I don't trust Jordan Petersen and others who have risen in the ways they have from relative obscurity to suddenly enjoying god-like status in some circles. There is something to such people that gets my Inner Voice, which I do trust, sending up red flags, and I always pay attention to those. This is not to say that I think everything they express is wrong. Quite the opposite. Petersen is clearly a brilliant man, but with his rise I have gotten the vibe of a budding... I cannot quite call it a "God complex", but it runs along an analogous path. Success turns many toward becoming quite full of themselves. Too full.

    That said, the near-incoherent rant about dollar stores serves only to further cement my suspicion that Carlson is either not nearly so gifted of intellect and smarts as people (and perhaps more importantly Carlson himself) seem to think, or he is a very special sort of controlled opposition. The form to which I refer is cleverly crafted and operated with great discipline. It consists of broadcasting 99.9% truth and fine reason in apparent countervail of (in this case) of Carlson's putative handlers' better self-interests as plotting, scheming tyrants. The 0.1%, however, consists of devastating falsehood, the acceptance of which is crucial to the very interests in and over which Theye appear to be shooting themselves in their own feet.

    Erect an icon of truth and great and trustworthy intellect and character that garners and establishes the faith and confidence of legions of adherents, and then poison the well with a very tiny dosage of a wildly virulent mind poison that results the effect of a fundamental change in the minds of those who have ingested it. The architecture is analogous to steganographic encryption where a message is embedded in a noise stream. In this case the noise is actual truth which is validly accepted, and the poison pill is ingested with it, unawares. After all, Tucker is so smart, so patriotic, so eminently trustworthy. If Tucker says it, must it not be so? I have seen this apparent pattern with Petersen and Glen Beck, the latter of whom went from what I saw long ago as a reasonably balanced view, to crying and carrying on in the manner of a lunatic. Alex Jones did similar, if to a somewhat different extreme where he embraced that of apparent raving mania.

    Then there are examples of those of whom such suspicions do not arise, Ron Paul risen eminently among them.

    I would not trust Carlson to tell me water is wet, which is a terrible shame because he speaks many solid and strong truths. But here he slashes the throat of his own credibility, indicating to me that he is either indeed controlled opposition, in which case he should he ignored and thereby shut out, or he needs to get his $#@! better wired to exercise greater care in thinking about what he intends on saying before opening his yap. This dollar store diatribe left my jaw on the floor for the degree of raw ignorance and stupidity it represents, leaving me ever more suspicious of the man's morals, allegiances, and capacities.

    Finally, I take a issue with the host where he referred to "semantics" in a tone that conveyed a sense of triviality in the same way I have heard done by so many people on countless occasions. It suggests at the very least his assumption of a very bad habit in having picked up on the clearly and wildly incorrect use of "semantics", likely based on a grossly insufficient understanding of the meaning and significance of the term. I would bet money I do not have that the man has little to no understanding of the place of significance occupied by language, which of course would explain his shabby abuse of "semantics". Less charitably, he may know precisely what he's doing.

    Semantics is the basis of all human understanding of everything we know, think we know, or would like to know. To imply it a triviality that is used in a game by disingenuous and scheming people for the purposes of invalid gain of some sort, is an error that merits no forgiveness in the absence of stunned-eyed realization of the sin, accompanied by profuse heart-felt apologies and other recompenses commensurate with this most grave of human transgressions.

    To that little turd in the punch bowl I can only respond with "boo-hiss".
    freedomisobvious.blogspot.com

    There is only one correct way: freedom. All other solutions are non-solutions.

    It appears that artificial intelligence is at least slightly superior to natural stupidity.

    Our words make us the ghosts that we are.

    Convincing the world he didn't exist was the Devil's second greatest trick; the first was convincing us that God didn't exist.

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by ClaytonB View Post



    Tucker should consider getting un-"bored" before spouting off utter nonsense...
    (setq ShriekingRailingLeftyVoice 1)

    RAYcis.

    (setq ShriekingRailingLeftyVoice nil)

    (setq ElvisVoice 1)

    Thaynk yew... thaynk y'verruhmuch

    (setq ElvisVoice nil)
    freedomisobvious.blogspot.com

    There is only one correct way: freedom. All other solutions are non-solutions.

    It appears that artificial intelligence is at least slightly superior to natural stupidity.

    Our words make us the ghosts that we are.

    Convincing the world he didn't exist was the Devil's second greatest trick; the first was convincing us that God didn't exist.

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    ...or he is a very special sort of controlled opposition. The form to which I refer is cleverly crafted and operated with great discipline. It consists of broadcasting 99.9% truth and fine reason in apparent countervail of (in this case) of Carlson's putative handlers' better self-interests as plotting, scheming tyrants. The 0.1%, however, consists of devastating falsehood, the acceptance of which is crucial to the very interests in and over which Theye appear to be shooting themselves in their own feet.
    Naturally you mentioned Beck. I used to call this "Beckstabbing" to the "he's coming around" crowd. Stroke Stroke Stab.

    When I saw Carlson walk out in the middle of the Rally For the Republic, I got a clear view of where he finds the butter for his bread. This TwitteX defection (I think that's like Latinx, only easier to pronounce) seemed promising, but I didn't find it to be proof of anything.
    Last edited by acptulsa; 12-23-2023 at 10:30 AM.

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    (setq ShriekingRailingLeftyVoice 1)

    RAYcis.

    (setq ShriekingRailingLeftyVoice nil)

    (setq ElvisVoice 1)

    Thaynk yew... thaynk y'verruhmuch

    (setq ElvisVoice nil)
    Lisp! Love it! Too cool!

    Marxist reasoning:
    (defun AreLibertariansWrongp (ReasonsFor ReasonsAgainst) 1)
    Last edited by ClaytonB; 12-23-2023 at 01:34 PM.
    Jer. 11:18-20. "The Kingdom of God has come upon you." -- Matthew 12:28



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  29. #25
    The problem as I see it is nobody is ever good enough.
    For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of the Libertarian Party.

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by ClaytonB View Post
    Lisp! Love it! Too cool!

    (defun AreLibertariansWrongp (ReasonsFor ReasonsAgainst) 1)
    I see I'm not the only one here.

    I used to develop expert systems for clients at Coopers & Lybrand on LISP machines. Very advanced stuff for its day and far more sophisticated in some ways than even today's commonly found operating systems, but the prefix grammar and parens were a real pain in the sphincter. But the guys at Symbolics were fantastic geniuses, I have to say.
    freedomisobvious.blogspot.com

    There is only one correct way: freedom. All other solutions are non-solutions.

    It appears that artificial intelligence is at least slightly superior to natural stupidity.

    Our words make us the ghosts that we are.

    Convincing the world he didn't exist was the Devil's second greatest trick; the first was convincing us that God didn't exist.

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    I see I'm not the only one here.

    I used to develop expert systems for clients at Coopers & Lybrand on LISP machines. Very advanced stuff for its day and far more sophisticated in some ways than even today's commonly found operating systems, but the prefix grammar and parens were a real pain in the sphincter. But the guys at Symbolics were fantastic geniuses, I have to say.
    I have no professional use of Lisp but it's basically art disguised as a programming language. I made my own attempt at a Lisp-inspired language a while back but ended up abandoning it, as most such projects go (but what I learned along the way made it all worth it). As for the parens, there is a syntax proposal called Sweet-expressions that can eliminate most parens in most cases and the result is trivially machine-translatable to actual Lisp which can then be run in a regular Lisp interpreter. If I get enough time (one of these days!), I'd like to write my own tiny-Lisp with built-in support for Sweet-expressions. It would be such a useful tool that I think it would pay for its own time-investment...
    Jer. 11:18-20. "The Kingdom of God has come upon you." -- Matthew 12:28

  32. #28
    What a hijack.

    But a thweet hijack.

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by ClaytonB View Post
    I have no professional use of Lisp but it's basically art disguised as a programming language. I made my own attempt at a Lisp-inspired language a while back but ended up abandoning it, as most such projects go (but what I learned along the way made it all worth it). As for the parens, there is a syntax proposal called Sweet-expressions that can eliminate most parens in most cases and the result is trivially machine-translatable to actual Lisp which can then be run in a regular Lisp interpreter. If I get enough time (one of these days!), I'd like to write my own tiny-Lisp with built-in support for Sweet-expressions. It would be such a useful tool that I think it would pay for its own time-investment...
    Such a translation should be easy, if you know how to write a parser. I used to teach compiler construction and language design, 100K years ago. Tommy Papadopoulos dared me to build a language and call it "orgasm", so I did. Omni Resident Generic ASseMbler. It was a universal cross-assembler that had a generic syntax that would allow any and all possible operations. It would output assembly source code for whatever target compiler you wanted. All you had to do was create a translation table. It worked well. You could define functions, macros, data control blocks, and all that good $#@! that nobody uses anymore.

    The Symbolics machines were incredible works of art. The Genera 7 operating system was better than anything anyone else was offering, and still is. You can actually still buy it, though through a different company, since Symbolics went out long, long ago. Specialized hardware was a loser from day one, but the Symbolics fare was truly magnificent in its raw genius.
    freedomisobvious.blogspot.com

    There is only one correct way: freedom. All other solutions are non-solutions.

    It appears that artificial intelligence is at least slightly superior to natural stupidity.

    Our words make us the ghosts that we are.

    Convincing the world he didn't exist was the Devil's second greatest trick; the first was convincing us that God didn't exist.

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    Such a translation should be easy, if you know how to write a parser. I used to teach compiler construction and language design, 100K years ago. Tommy Papadopoulos dared me to build a language and call it "orgasm", so I did. Omni Resident Generic ASseMbler. It was a universal cross-assembler that had a generic syntax that would allow any and all possible operations. It would output assembly source code for whatever target compiler you wanted. All you had to do was create a translation table. It worked well. You could define functions, macros, data control blocks, and all that good $#@! that nobody uses anymore.

    The Symbolics machines were incredible works of art. The Genera 7 operating system was better than anything anyone else was offering, and still is. You can actually still buy it, though through a different company, since Symbolics went out long, long ago. Specialized hardware was a loser from day one, but the Symbolics fare was truly magnificent in its raw genius.
    Jer. 11:18-20. "The Kingdom of God has come upon you." -- Matthew 12:28

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