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Thread: Judge Rules Trump Committed Fraud, Stripping Control of Key Properties

  1. #181
    Quote Originally Posted by spudea View Post
    Valued by who [sic]??? The prosecution just made up those numbers what the "actual" valuations should be and the Judge accepted them and barred the defense from presenting evidence disputing the valuations the prosecution used.
    If you had bothered to read the judge's order, you would have discovered that the numbers weren't made up by the prosecution but came from valuations done by professional appraisers, some of whom were hired by the Trump Organization.
    We have long had death and taxes as the two standards of inevitability. But there are those who believe that death is the preferable of the two. "At least," as one man said, "there's one advantage about death; it doesn't get worse every time Congress meets."
    Erwin N. Griswold

    Taxes: Of life's two certainties, the only one for which you can get an automatic extension.
    Anonymous



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  3. #182
    Quote Originally Posted by spudea View Post
    Valued by who??? The prosecution just made up those numbers what the "actual" valuations should be and the Judge accepted them and barred the defense from presenting evidence disputing the valuations the prosecution used.
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    That's precisely what Kevin O'Learly said, there was no crime. What he did is their job, that's what real estate developers do. They over-value their assets to sell them, or to get more loans. Banks push back and do their own due diligence. Buyers offer what they believe it's worth. It doesn't matter what the developer thinks it is worth, it's just a sales pitch. Valuing assets is subjective, there is no objective value. There are different methods to valuing assets for different purposes. The bankers testified that Trump did nothing wrong.
    ...
    Quote Originally Posted by Philhelm View Post
    FFS, over-valuing assets is the bedrock of any transaction.

    This and the Alex Jones fine are some of the most insane $#@!ing civil court rulings I've seen, and it doesn't stop with them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Banana View Post
    There's some serious and blatant "fraud" going on here ↓↓↓.[INDENT]
    ...
    Someone alert the Roman praetorian gaurds NY Attorney General's office!

    The State needs to dictate what the proper valuations "really" are.
    "Comrade, you sold a car to someone in 2005, and it was above the official government estimate of appropriate value as determined by us yesterday. Off to Gulag for you. Such crime can not be tolerated in our great Democracy."
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul

    Proponent of real science.
    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  4. #183
    Quote Originally Posted by 69360 View Post
    Are you implying Trump didn't commit crimes? That is delusional.
    The list of crimes committed by this ham sandwich are much worse than the crimes committed by the comparable tuna-fish sandwich.
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul

    Proponent of real science.
    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  5. #184
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The list of crimes committed by this ham sandwich are much worse than the crimes committed by the comparable tuna-fish sandwich.
    Trump and Biden both lead crime families.



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  7. #185
    Quote Originally Posted by 69360 View Post
    Trump and Biden both lead crime families.
    LOL. From the evidence that has been publicly presented, there is no comparison. Biden is as corrupt as they come. A true criminal by any criteria.

    Trump is a billionaire businessman, as honest and ethical as Bill Gates or Mark Zuckerberg or your average large scale real estate developer.
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul

    Proponent of real science.
    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  8. #186
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    "Comrade, you sold a car to someone in 2005, and it was above the official government estimate of appropriate value as determined by us yesterday. Off to Gulag for you. Such crime can not be tolerated in our great Democracy."
    We actually did that. My wife works for a used car dealership and gets to drive cars from the lot as a perk. I work remotely so we decided to sell one of our cars since the used car market was hurting for inventory. She was able to negotiate $9,000, instead of the offered $7,000, and told the dealership manager (not her dealership) why he would accept the deal.

    Trump is obviously a divisive figure here, and I can understand disliking him, but literally nobody on this site should be crowing about this civil suit or "90 felony charges," since it's the most ludicrous example of investigating a person rather than a crime. Hochul might assure people that it stops at Trump, but anyone with any sense knows that it won't stop at Trump in the long run.
    "I shall bring justice to Westeros. Every man shall reap what he has sown, from the highest lord to the lowest gutter rat. They have made my kingdom bleed, and I do not forget that."
    -Stannis Baratheon

  9. #187
    Quote Originally Posted by 69360 View Post
    Trump and Biden both lead crime families.
    Please list Trump's crimes.
    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it.

    ~comment at Zero Hedge

  10. #188
    Republicans need a new nominee.

    Trump has filed for business bankruptcy four times: the Trump Taj Mahal in 1991, Trump Plaza Hotel in 1992, Trump Hotels and Casinos Resorts in 2004 and Trump Entertainment Resorts in 2009. Each time, the bankruptcy was a Chapter 11 filing.

  11. #189
    Quote Originally Posted by Philhelm View Post
    Trump is obviously a divisive figure here, and I can understand disliking him, but literally nobody on this site should be crowing about this civil suit or "90 felony charges," since it's the most ludicrous example of investigating a person rather than a crime. Hochul might assure people that it stops at Trump, but anyone with any sense knows that it won't stop at Trump in the long run.
    Exactly. These are the exact type of court proceedings that you had during communist times. This is how my grandfather ended up in a prison work camp for 13 years. Once we're the ones in the prison work camp, I'll have a little schadenfreude meeting people like 69360 that think this starts and ends with Trump.

  12. #190
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt4Liberty View Post
    Exactly. These are the exact type of court proceedings that you had during communist times. This is how my grandfather ended up in a prison work camp for 13 years. Once we're the ones in the prison work camp, I'll have a little schadenfreude meeting people like 69360 that think this starts and ends with Trump.
    What happened with your grandfather and where was that?

    69360 probably believes Trump is paid by the Kremlin, too.
    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it.

    ~comment at Zero Hedge

  13. #191
    Quote Originally Posted by susano View Post
    Please list Trump's crimes.
    The 90+ felony indictments are public record

  14. #192
    Quote Originally Posted by 69360 View Post
    The 90+ felony indictments are public record
    I'll only believe it if there is a "hate crime" enhancement included. Without that, it's not serious.
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul

    Proponent of real science.
    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.



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  16. #193
    "An idea whose time has come cannot be stopped by any army or any government" - Ron Paul.

    "To learn who rules over you simply find out who you arent allowed to criticize."

  17. #194
    Quote Originally Posted by 69360 View Post
    The 90+ felony indictments are public record
    That's not evidence of any crime unless you think political enemies making accusations equals proof.
    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it.

    ~comment at Zero Hedge

  18. #195
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonny Tufts View Post
    If you had bothered to read the judge's order, you would have discovered that the numbers weren't made up by the prosecution but came from valuations done by professional appraisers, some of whom were hired by the Trump Organization.
    I recently purchased a home and negotiated a mortgage from a large bank. Did the bank just accept what the seller said the value of the home was? No of course not, the bank ordered their own appraisal and made me pay for it. If the appraisal came in significantly less than what the seller valued the home at, can I sue the seller for fraud??? No, I can't. This is done every day in the real estate business, and there are always different opinions on a property's value. Any bank that just accepts a stated value, failed to do their due diligence. Trump was negotiating loans from the largest banks in the world, these banks testified they simply accepted the stated values provided by Trump, they didn't order their own appraisals, that is their fault, not his. And apparently, they didn't even ask for copies of appraisals done by the Trump Org. They testified they were not harmed and simply gave high net worth individuals a 50% haircut before evaluating risk and loan terms. They didn't care about the "appraised value" of the properties.

    Alternatively, if the appraisal came in at $150k, but the seller lists the property for sale at $200k, is that fraud?? NO!

    I recently sold an old car as a trade in to a dealership, the dealer initially offered me $500, i thought that was too low so I declined. They came back and offered me $1000. I liked that better and was inclined to accepted but wanted to browse around different dealerships. Then they offered me $1500, which I thought was much higher than it was actually worth since I knew it had engine problems, so I accepted their offer. Since they paid me more than it was worth is that fraud??? NO!
    Last edited by spudea; 02-21-2024 at 09:10 PM.
    I just want objectivity on this forum and will point out flawed sources or points of view at my leisure.

    Quote Originally Posted by spudea on 01/15/24
    Trump will win every single state primary by double digits.
    Quote Originally Posted by spudea on 04/20/16
    There won't be a contested convention
    Quote Originally Posted by spudea on 05/30/17
    The shooting of Gabrielle Gifford was blamed on putting a crosshair on a political map. I wonder what event we'll see justified with pictures like this.

  19. #196

  20. #197
    Quote Originally Posted by susano View Post
    What happened with your grandfather and where was that?

    69360 probably believes Trump is paid by the Kremlin, too.
    It was in Communist Czechoslovakia in the '50s. He was very anti-communism. He was a customs agent and was accused of letting spies into the country and being against the party as a whole. He spent 13 years mostly mining uranium. There were some reforms in the 60s and they let him out early, otherwise it would have been 18 years. These style kangaroo courts were very common. It was very much along the lines of Beria's "Show me the man, and I'll show you the crime."

  21. #198
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt4Liberty View Post
    It was in Communist Czechoslovakia in the '50s. He was very anti-communism. He was a customs agent and was accused of letting spies into the country and being against the party as a whole. He spent 13 years mostly mining uranium. There were some reforms in the 60s and they let him out early, otherwise it would have been 18 years. These style kangaroo courts were very common. It was very much along the lines of Beria's "Show me the man, and I'll show you the crime."
    Wow. I'll bet your grandfather was a wealth of information about communism. I have a book that was written by a first hand experiencer of the Bolshevik revolution that's the most gut wrenching and interesting book I've ever read. If you're interested in that type of stuff, copies are sometimes for sale online (it's out of print) or otherwise you can read it here:

    https://archive.org/details/Leaves_From_A_Russian_Diary

    The experience of living through communist oppression is the biggest reason that so many of the eastern European countries are blind to the crimes of Ukraine and will always hate Russia. It's real problem and I understand it. I don't know if that wound will ever be healed and with Russia invading Ukraine (even though they had it coming) it's solidified their hatred.
    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it.

    ~comment at Zero Hedge

  22. #199
    New York Democrats ADMIT To Targeting Trump
    https://odysee.com/@actualjusticewar...to-targeting:0
    {Actual Justice Warrior | 21 February 2024}

    In this video I discuss the recent ruling by a New York Judge that Trump must pay $355 million for a fraud case that has no legal basis.


  23. #200
    Quote Originally Posted by 69360 View Post
    The 90+ felony indictments are public record
    Notorious serial killers don't get "90+ felony indictments." You keep harping on this as an argument winner, but if anything, it highlights the problem of government abuse of power.
    "I shall bring justice to Westeros. Every man shall reap what he has sown, from the highest lord to the lowest gutter rat. They have made my kingdom bleed, and I do not forget that."
    -Stannis Baratheon



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  25. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by Philhelm View Post
    Notorious serial killers don't get "90+ felony indictments." You keep harping on this as an argument winner, but if anything, it highlights the problem of government abuse of power.
    You are right, Trump would do the same thing to Biden if elected again.

  26. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Banana View Post
    New York Democrats ADMIT To Targeting Trump
    https://odysee.com/@actualjusticewar...to-targeting:0
    {Actual Justice Warrior | 21 February 2024}

    In this video I discuss the recent ruling by a New York Judge that Trump must pay $355 million for a fraud case that has no legal basis.

    The article referenced in the video:

    President Trump's Kafkaesque Civil Trial in New York State
    A Stalinist nightmare in New York State
    https://reason.com/volokh/2024/02/18...ew-york-state/
    {Steven Calabrisi | 18 February 2024}

    [all emphasis in the original - OB]

    Donald Trump has been ordered to pay a $355 million fine and has been barred from doing business in New York State for three years. Judge Arthur Engoron ordered Trump to pay essentially all of his cash reserves of $400 million, which fine if upheld would force Trump to sell some of his real estate holdings to raise cash to live on. Once interest is added on the total fine will rise to $450 million. This is all on top of an $83.3 million fine Trump must pay for allegedly defaming the writer E. Jean Carroll. The fines in total could deprive Trump of between 11% and 13% of his wealth. Trump's adult sons Donald Jr. and Eric have also been fined, and they are barred from doing business in New York State for two years. Ivanka or Melania Trump could legally run the Trump businesses for the next two years, but Judge Engoron appointed retired U.S. District Judge Barbara Jones to continue in her role as an "independent monitor" of the Trump business empire but expanded her authority to review financial disclosures before they are submitted to third parties. Judge Jones can hire an independent director of compliance, and she has the authority to compel Trump to sell some or even all of his businesses down the road. This is all punishment for Trump allegedly committing fraud by falsely in inflating and deflating the value of his real estate assets to pay lower state taxes and to receive more favorable loans from banks.

    The New York State laws used to go after Trump have NEVER been used in this way, historically, and while Trump may owe some back state taxes, if Judge Engoron is right, not a single bank claimed that it had been defrauded by Trump in the loans it had made to him. This is truly a victimless crime.

    Bankers took the stand at Trump's civil trial testifying that they would have gladly made loans to Donald Trump given his extraordinary success as a businessman. It must also be noted that the banks that made loans to Trump did not take his assessment of the net worth of his assets at face value but made their own independent assessments of the value of Trump's assets. This is apparently standard practice in the New York State real estate market where borrowers often overstate the value of their assets.

    The bottom line is that a never before used New York State penalty has been twisted into a tool for a grossly excessive fine and more seriously the completely inappropriate appointment of Judge Jones as an "independent monitor" who can micromanage the Trump business, which she is not competent to do, and to even order the dissolution of the Trump Business in New York State. This outcome was pursued by Letitia James, a politically ambition Democrat, who is the Attorney General of New York State, and who hopes to win a future Democratic primary for Governor of or Senator from New York State.

    Ms. James and Judge Engeron have essentially turned a vaguely worded New York State law into a modern day Bill of Attainder targeted at Donald Trump both for political gain and because they despise his political views and desperately want to call his truthfulness into question as he runs for President of the United States inn 2024. In doing this, the have violated Trump's First Amendment right to freedom of speech and of the press; his Fifth Amendment right not to be deprived of liberty or property without due process of law; his Fifth Amendment right not to have property taken away from him except for a pubic use with just compensation being paid; his Eighth Amendment right not to be made to pay an excessive fine; his Article IV, Section 2 right as a citizen of Florida to do make and enforce contracts in New York on the same terms as are other New Yorkers; and his Fourteenth Amendment right to be free to pursue an occupation without unnecessary and burdensome regulation.

    The civil fraud judgment against Donald Trump is a travesty and an unjust political act rivaled only in American politics by the killing of former Treasury Secretary Alexander Hamilton by Vice President Aaron Burr. If the New York State appellate courts do not reverse this judgment, the U.S. Supreme Court MUST grant cert on this case and reverse Judge Engeron's outrageous decisions. National, presidential politics will be permanently altered if a local State's legal system can be used in this way against candidates for President of the United States. This case raises a national issue of profound importance and if the New York State appellate courts do not address it, the U.S. Supreme Court MUST!

  27. #203
    Trump was such a poor businessman that the Rothchilds had to bail him out so they could use him.
    They kept his brand alive for future employment. Their agent Wilbur Ross, who Trump put in his administration, did the paperwork.
    It's all in the public information.
    "When Sombart says: "Capitalism is born from the money-loan", I should like to add to this: Capitalism actually exists only in the money-loan;" - Theodor Fritsch

  28. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowball View Post
    Trump was such a poor businessman that the Rothchilds had to bail him out so they could use him.
    They kept his brand alive for future employment. Their agent Wilbur Ross, who Trump put in his administration, did the paperwork.
    It's all in the public information.
    They did more than that. They bought him a TV prime time network slot to polish that brand and build up his new tough guy persona.

  29. #205
    Quote Originally Posted by 69360 View Post
    You are right, Trump would do the same thing to Biden if elected again.
    You mean like how the first thing he did after getting inaugurated in 2017 was keeping his promise to lock up Hillary?
    There is nothing to fear from globalism, free trade and a single worldwide currency, but a globalism where free trade is competitively subsidized by each nation, a continuous trade war is dictated by the WTO, and the single currency is pure fiat, fear is justified. That type of globalism is destined to collapse into economic despair, inflationism and protectionism and managed by resurgent militant nationalism.
    Ron Paul
    Congressional Record (March 13, 2001)

  30. #206
    Quote Originally Posted by Invisible Man View Post
    You mean like how the first thing he did after getting inaugurated in 2017 was keeping his promise to lock up Hillary?
    You are right, I should have said Trump claims he would do the same things.

  31. #207
    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Banana View Post
    (quoting Reason)

    The civil fraud judgment against Donald Trump is a travesty and an unjust political act rivaled only in American politics by the killing of former Treasury Secretary Alexander Hamilton by Vice President Aaron Burr.
    Hamilton actually had a chance to defend himself.
    Last edited by nobody's_hero; 02-22-2024 at 12:12 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    This is getting silly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    It started silly.
    T.S. Eliot's The Hollow Men

    "One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors." - Plato

    We Are Running Out of Time - Mini Me

    Quote Originally Posted by Philhelm
    I part ways with "libertarianism" when it transitions from ideology grounded in logic into self-defeating autism for the sake of ideological purity.

  32. #208
    Quote Originally Posted by susano View Post
    Please list Trump's crimes.
    Do I have to list every fraud individually or will just one entry for fraud do?
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Pinochet is the model
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Liberty preserving authoritarianism.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Enforced internal open borders was one of the worst elements of the Constitution.



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  34. #209
    Hamilton was a piece of $#@!ing $#@!.

    Was literally an agent for the central banking cartel.

    Aaron Burr is a national hero, should legit have a monument in DC.

    Jackson was almost as based as Burr, devoting his efforts to stopping the establishment of a central bank.
    Last edited by unknown; 02-22-2024 at 02:32 PM.

  35. #210
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt4Liberty View Post
    Exactly. These are the exact type of court proceedings that you had during communist times. This is how my grandfather ended up in a prison work camp for 13 years. Once we're the ones in the prison work camp, I'll have a little schadenfreude meeting people like 69360 that think this starts and ends with Trump.

    Prisoner?

    @69360 gonna be Commandant.
    Last edited by unknown; 02-22-2024 at 06:01 PM.

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