NYC - The chokehold death of Jordan Neely [VERDICT: Daniel Penny not guilty]

[acptulsa]

You're not the only one to come to that conclusion.

+Rep. I like this guy. No two hours of gossip and blather and repetition. He packs more good, hard truth into ten minutes than some podcasters deliver in a lifetime.

"'The more black criminals are set free, the more black victims there will be.' But I guess that's just not as catchy a slogan."

I don't know. It has possibilities...

[Anti Federalist]

Manhattan DA Alvin Bragg Reverses Course After Jordan Neely Protests, Will Now Charge Daniel Penny with Manslaughter

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2...eely-protests/

JORDAN DIXON-HAMILTON 11 May 2023

Manhattan District Attorney Alvin Bragg will charge Daniel Penny, the former marine who neutralized Jordan Neely amid an erratic outburst, with second-degree manslaughter after protests erupted in New York City over law enforcement initially declining to charge Penny, according to reports.

As Breitbart News detailed:

Last week, a medical examiner in New York deemed the death of Jordan Neely a homicide. The incident occurred on Monday this week on the F train at the east Houston and Lafayette Street station after Neely had been allegedly throwing trash and yelling at passengers about his economic misfortunes. Neely had a history of mental issues and often frequented the station as a Michael Jackson impersonator. He also had an active warrant for his arrest for a felony assault.

Officers took Penny into custody for questioning after Neely’s death but declined to charge him with any crimes and let him walk free afterward.

However, protests erupted in New York City the day after Penny’s release from law enforcement, with many calling for him to be arrested.

“This man needs to be prosecuted cause what you will do if you do not prosecute him, in my judgment, is you will set a standard of vigilantism that we cannot tolerate,” Rev. Al Sharpton said. “The precedent alone is a threat to all of us.”

Law enforcement’s initial reluctance to charge Penny, coupled with a video of the incident surfacing on social media, led to protests at the subway station where Neely died. Some protesters reportedly climbed onto the subway tracks and chanted, “No justice, no peace,” and, “Abolish the police.”

Other protesters likened Neely’s death to George Floyd’s death, which sparked nationwide protests in 2020.

“The days of murdering us and getting away with it are $#@!ing over. If we have to strap up and come out here and just start popping, it’s gonna happen. We’re tired of it,” one protester claimed on Friday.

“They didn’t learn after George Floyd. They didn’t $#@!ing learn,” another protester shouted.

Multiple protesters were arrested Monday night on charges of “disorderly conduct and obstructing governmental administration over sound amplification,” according to the New York Post.

Now, Neely faces second-degree manslaughter charges in a criminal complaint arising out of the Manhattan district attorney’s office, the Post reported.

Penny is set to turn himself in at the NYPD’s 5th Precinct in Manhattan on Friday morning, the Post added.

Penny’s attorneys claimed he never intended to harm Neely in a statement.

“We would first like to express, on behalf of Daniel Penny, our condolences to those close to Mr. Neely,” his attorneys said. “When Mr. Neely began aggressively threatening Daniel Penny and the other passengers, Daniel, with the help of others, acted to protect themselves, until help arrived.”

“Daniel never intended to harm Mr. Neely and could not have foreseen his untimely death,” his attorneys added. “We hope that out of this awful tragedy will come a new commitment by our elected officials to address the mental health crisis on our streets and subways.”

[Anti Federalist]

Give Send Go set up for Dan Penny's defense.

Over $200 grand raised so far.

Contribute here if so inclined.

https://www.givesendgo.com/daniel_penny

[Anti Federalist]

“The days of murdering us and getting away with it are $#@!ing over. If we have to strap up and come out here and just start popping, it’s gonna happen. We’re tired of it,” one protester claimed on Friday.

“They didn’t learn after George Floyd. They didn’t $#@!ing learn,” another protester shouted.

Popping?

Popping what, dude?

Corn?

[Anti Federalist]

Give Send Go set up for Dan Penny's defense.

Over $200 grand raised so far.

Contribute here if so inclined.

https://www.givesendgo.com/daniel_penny

Up to $250,000 just in the time between these two posts.

I kicked in $20.

[Anti Federalist]

https://twitter.com/EndWokeness/stat...19123657183232

[Anti Federalist]

Up to over $600,000

https://www.givesendgo.com/daniel_penny

[sparebulb]

https://twitter.com/EndWokeness/stat...19123657183232

I've posted it before, but the resemblance to the great actor/child preacher Marjoe Gortner is uncanny.

His role in the epic disaster film Earthquake was that of a creepy bag boy at a grocery store who takes full advantage of his position as a National Guardsman to act out his own desires for "law and order".

Time will tell if there is more than a passing resemblance.

[Anti Federalist]

Up to over $600,000

https://www.givesendgo.com/daniel_penny

Almost 800000 now.

[Anti Federalist]

Almost 1.5 million now.

[Anti Federalist]

Meanwhile in St. Louis...


Citing 'Lack of Evidence,' Kim Gardner Won't Charge Shooter Caught on Video

https://www.riverfronttimes.com/news...video-40033271

By Ryan Krull on Wed, May 10, 2023 at 2:36 pm

The suspect in the shooting on Cherokee Street, Amber Booker, has been released from custody



https://twitter.com/i/status/1655511487387934720

The St. Louis Circuit Attorney's Office has refused to charge the 33-year-old woman police arrested this morning related to a weekend shooting on Cherokee Street after the annual Cinco de Mayo parade.

St. Louis Metropolitan Police said that Amber Booker was one of two individuals who opened fire on Cherokee Street around 7:30 p.m., wounding two 25-year-olds and causing a panic among the hundreds gathered on the street celebrating.

Videos of the shooting circulated on social media. The police applied for two assault and two armed criminal action charges against Booker.

However, according to police, Circuit Attorney Kim Gardner's office refused the charges, citing a "lack of evidence" as well as victims refusing to assist.

This morning when police announced Booker's arrest, they said that they had identified the male shooter as well, though he was not in custody.

Booker has since been released from jail.

The RFT reached out to the Circuit Attorney's Office asking for more information as to why charges were refused. We will update the story when we hear back.

Last week, Circuit Attorney Gardner announced she would resign on June 1. She faces not only a removal attempt by the Missouri Attorney General Andrew Bailey but a mass exodus from her office, as prosecutor after prosecutor has quit. Gardner also came under fire for being enrolled in an advanced nursing program at St. Louis University.

She has refused to answer questions about the time commitment involved or the nature of the classes.

UPDATE: A Circuit Attorney's Office spokesperson tells the RFT in a statement, "We are working closely with police on this on-going investigation. We cannot comment further at this time."

[sparebulb]

Meanwhile in St. Louis...

However, according to police, Circuit Attorney Kim Gardner's office refused the charges, citing a "lack of evidence" as well as victims refusing to assist.

That does present a challenge for the prosecution.

[Occam's Banana]

https://twitter.com/ajsteelshow/stat...62704617263106

[Occam's Banana]

Give Send Go set up for Dan Penny's defense.

Over $200 grand raised so far.

Contribute here if so inclined.

https://www.givesendgo.com/daniel_penny

Almost 1.5 million now.

Daniel Penny Fund its Nearly $2M, Leftists FURIOUS, I Personally Donated $20k So We Can WIN This War
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qoqB6e_vqHo

[Anti Federalist]

https://twitter.com/greg_price11/sta...31549694865409

[sparebulb]

https://twitter.com/greg_price11/sta...31549694865409

Did Penny know about his priors?

Of course not.

We don't like it when kops kill people with hindsight rationalizations.

People really need to step away from this and wait to see what the facts is, as a singer from TheTexas once said.

[Occam's Banana]

Jordan Neely | The Next George Floyd | The Facts and the Law
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9ag1ZNlFBU

[Anti Federalist]

Eyewitness Heard Jordan Neely Say ‘I Don’t Care If I Have to Kill,’ Calls Daniel Penny a ‘Hero’

https://www.breitbart.com/crime/2023...-penny-a-hero/

TRICIA BERRY 18 May 2023

An eyewitness to the fatal chokehold of a homeless man by a Marine Corps veteran aboard a New York City subway said she was thankful the vet intervened.

On May 1, Jordan Neely boarded the northbound F train and started screaming, then threw his jacket on the ground, Breitbart reported.

“I’m sitting on a train reading my book, and, all of a sudden, I hear someone spewing this rhetoric,” the 60-year-old eyewitness told Fox News. “He said, ‘I don’t care if I have to kill an F, I will. I’ll go to jail, I’ll take a bullet.’”

The retiree said passengers were crowding around the exit signs and that they were all “scared for our lives.”

Neely had 42 prior arrests and an active warrant, Newsweek reported. In November 2021, Neely attacked a 67-year-old woman, giving her a black eye and broken nose, Fox News noted.

Marine veteran Daniel Penny brought Neely to the ground and restrained him. Two other passengers helped hold Neely’s limbs down.

When police arrived on the scene, Penny remained, and he voluntarily went to the station for further police questioning.

“Nobody wants to kill anybody. Mr. Penny didn’t want to kill that man,” the witness told Fox News. “You should have seen the way Mr. Penny looked. He was distraught. He was very, very, very visibly distressed. And he didn’t go. He didn’t run. He stayed.”

Manhattan District Attorney Alvin Bragg charged the 25-year-old Penny with second degree manslaughter. A day after prosecutors announced the charges against Penny, he turned himself in, NewsNation reported.

[Anti Federalist]

Edit: Just finished watching the video. I wish they would release the video of Banko lunging with the knife.

@jmdrake

Banko was unarmed.

Banko was retreating.

Banko had stolen less that $1000 worth of goods, which in California and San Fran, is a third class misdemeanor.

Banko was put into a chokehold prior to being shot.

Banko's adversary was not charged by a leftist DA.

Banko was a member of politically protected class.

Neely and Banko were both killed by men with, presumably, training in the use of deadly force.

Yet one is having the book thrown at him and the other walks away.

Why is that, Capt. Ron?


https://rumble.com/embed/v2le1em/?pub=4

Shocking footage shows moment SF Walgreens security guard fatally shoots alleged trans activist shoplifter

https://nypost.com/2023/05/16/san-fr...ed-shoplifter/

By David Propper
May 16, 2023 12:45am Updated

A shocking surveillance video released Monday by the San Francisco District Attorney’s Office shows the moment a Walgreens security guard shot and killed an alleged shoplifter.

The footage was made public by District Attorney Brooke Jenkins as she defended her decision not to go forward with charges against security guard Michael Earl-Wayne Anthony in the April 27 death of 24-year Banko Brown.

Jenkins said Anthony was defending himself when he shot Brown at a Walgreens in downtown San Francisco.

The footage shows Anthony, a licensed guard since 2012, step in to stop Brown from leaving the store with a bag of items before Anthony begins to repeatedly punch the suspected shoplifter.

After the two struggle for several seconds, Anthony puts Brown in a chokehold and forces him to the floor, where the pair stay for a few moments as store patrons casually walk past them.

The guard eventually lets Brown up and the alleged thief picks up the bag and walks toward the door, footage shows.

Brown then turns around on his way out and appears to make a move toward Anthony, who lifts his gun and shoots Brown once.

Anthony said in a police interview he instructed Brown to put the items back and claimed Brown was the aggressor who fought to keep the items.

The security guard told police that Brown kept threatening to stab him after he told the man to calm down while the two were tussling.

Anthony said he let go of Brown, but drew his gun and pointed it at the floor in case Brown launched at him.

He said he shot Brown when the suspect made a move to charge toward him, realizing when it was too late that Brown would just spit at him.

Brown did not have a knife on him.

Jenkins said there was nothing to disprove Anthony’s claim of self-defense and urged residents not to rely on the video of the shooting alone to form their opinion.

“There will be a temptation, as human beings, to only view the video footage of this incident and nothing else,” Jenkins said. “We are accustomed to seeing videos online, and that often is what captures our attention rather than going the extra step to look deeper.”

She said it was important for people to also review witness and police reports rather than just rely on the footage, which had no sound.

The criticism over the lack of prosecution only continued Monday. Brooke initially discharged the case on May 1.

Supervisor Shamann Walton said in a statement that Banko was “executed.”

“Where is the perceived threat?” Walton said.

The nonprofit that Brown, a trans man who struggled with homelessness, worked at also slammed Jenkins.

“We do not need to see the video to know that Banko Brown’s killing was unjustified. Armed force is not a justified response to poverty,” Julia Arroyo, the Young Women’s Freedom Center co-executive director, said in a statement Monday.

“We must live with the sobering reality that he was killed for no other cause but $14.”

The California city has been besieged by heartbreaking homelessness and rampant shoplifting.

[dannno]

I was wondering why the protesters didn't want to arrest the other two guys who helped subdue him... well, not really, because one of them was black..

But now apparently the protesters are calling for everyone on the train to be arrested for murder.

[Anti Federalist]

I was wondering why the protesters didn't want to arrest the other two guys who helped subdue him... well, not really, because one of them was black..

But now apparently the protesters are calling for everyone on the train to be arrested for murder.

So they say:



I'm noticing a disturbing trend shaping up, here is the latest incident of it.

If you are white and witness to or are victim of, a black person committing a crime, you have no right to interfere, stop it, or defend yourself, due to your white privilege and supremacy.

[Occam's Banana]

I was wondering why the protesters didn't want to arrest the other two guys who helped subdue him... well, not really, because one of them was black..

But now apparently the protesters are calling for everyone on the train to be arrested for murder.

So they say:

I'm noticing a disturbing trend shaping up, here is the latest incident of it.

If you are white and witness to or are victim of, a black person committing a crime, you have no right to interfere, stop it, or defend yourself, due to your white privilege and supremacy.

Notice that at no point in the following piece is it ever considered that Neely's death might be anything other than wrongful - and the only "debate" to be had (as far as the author seems to be concerned) is over whether others in addition to Penny ought to held responsible.

They Watched Jordan Neely Die. Did They Have a Duty to Intervene?
New York does not require bystanders to act when someone is in danger, but the killing on the F train has residents debating when they should step in.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/17/n...nders-nyc.html
[archive link: https://archive.is/Ih8Lo]
Chelsia Rose Marcius (17 May 2023)

As Jordan Neely struggled to free himself from a chokehold in the New York City subway earlier this month, there were the passengers who pinned him down and the passengers who watched.

Two men helped restrain Mr. Neely while Daniel Penny, an ex-Marine, held him on the floor of an F train that had stopped in a Manhattan station, a four-minute video of the May 1 episode shows.

Around 10 passengers observed the three holding down Mr. Neely, 30, who slipped into unconsciousness. A woman tried to walk around the cluster of people on the floor, but seeing Mr. Neely flail his legs, she bit her lip and stepped back, the video shows. Another woman typed on her phone, looked at Mr. Neely then glanced out the subway doors. One man stepped into the train and told Mr. Penny, “You’re going to kill him.” He was not seen to physically intervene.

Nor, under New York law, did he have to.

Nationally, the killing of Mr. Neely, who the police said had been acting in a “hostile and erratic manner,” has set off a broad political debate: Many Democrats called for Mr. Penny’s arrest, while conservative political figures called him a hero. Supporters have donated almost $2.5 million for his defense.

But in New York, one of the nation’s most densely populated cities, the death has prompted conversation about what moral duty onlookers have to one another and to the most troubled people among them.

The legal standard is clear: No U.S. state explicitly requires civilian strangers to physically intervene when they see an adult in danger, though some impose a duty to report wrongdoing and two set an ambiguous standard of rendering assistance. The value of such legislation has been debated for years, according to people who study the intersection of ethics, the law and bystanderism — the phenomenon of being less likely to intervene when there are others present.

In New York, where residents rub shoulders in corridors, crowded sidewalks and packed subway cars, the decision of how to respond to an uncomfortable situation is a daily dilemma.

There is an unspoken code in the city: “You do not get involved, you cannot solve every person’s problems. We learn to be very guarded,” said Ken Levy, a professor at the Paul M. Hebert Law Center at Louisiana State University, who studies bystanderism and who lived in New York for years.

“The closest we can come to undoing a tragedy like this is by blaming the people who did it, and those who didn’t stop it,” he added.

Only one person has been officially blamed. On Friday, Mr. Penny, 24, was charged with second-degree manslaughter. He has not yet been indicted or entered a plea. The men who helped hold Mr. Neely down have not been arrested or charged. It is unclear if the police know their identities.

The police interviewed at least several bystanders after the incident, according to internal documents obtained by The New York Times. The police and the Manhattan district attorney have since put out public calls for more witnesses to come forward.

Some New York activists believe the passengers share some culpability. During a wave of heated protests near and inside the Broadway-Lafayette Street subway station where the F train was sitting when Mr. Penny choked Mr. Neely, some demonstrators focused on those who merely watched.

Arrest “everyone that was on that train,” read one protester’s sign. “Love and protect your fellow man. Don’t move here if you’re scared of your neighbors,” read another. It added: “If you watch someone choke and attack/kill another, you are complicit. You are responsible.”

Debate over if or when bystanders should intervene intensified after the 1964 sexual assault and murder of Kitty Genovese in Queens. The New York Times initially reported that 38 people had witnessed the attack at various points but did nothing to help. (The Times has since acknowledged that the report “grossly exaggerated the number of witnesses and what they had perceived.”)

The ubiquity of cameras has intensified the question. In 2019, at least 50 teenagers witnessed the murder of 16-year-old Khaseen Morris, who was stabbed outside a strip mall in Long Island. Some filmed his killing on their phones but did nothing to help, a detective said at the time.

In a case like Mr. Neely’s, where an individual’s behavior may be frightening, authorities say bystanders should tread lightly. On Tuesday, Mayor Eric Adams said New Yorkers should call the authorities “if a person is doing something extremely dangerous so proper personnel could respond. And that includes mental health professionals — and, in those cases where it’s needed, a law enforcement professional.”

Still, there is not always cellphone service in the subway. In the Neely case, at least two people alerted the train conductor, and the conductor notified the police, Juan Alberto Vazquez, a freelance journalist who filmed the four-minute video, said in an interview the day after the killing.

Some states have tried to guide citizens’ actions in the heat of the moment, passing so-called duty to report laws.

Twenty-nine — not including New York — require bystanders to notify the authorities about a person in peril, or to assist so long as doing so would not endanger themselves or others, said Zachary D. Kaufman, a law professor at Boston University and the University of Houston who has compiled a database of such statutes worldwide.

Only two of those states have laws that may require onlookers to physically intervene. Rhode Island and Vermont require “reasonable assistance” when a bystander sees a person exposed to “grave physical harm,” Professor Kaufman added. Courts must interpret that language, he said.

Mr. Neely’s death also raised the question of who needed help, the victim or the passengers.

A few witnesses on the F train told authorities that Mr. Penny and the two other men who held Mr. Neely down were protecting them from what they perceived as frightening and unpredictable behavior, according to the police and Mr. Vazquez.

Mr. Neely screamed, “I don’t have food, I don’t have a drink, I’m fed up. I don’t mind going to jail and getting life in prison. I’m ready to die,’” Mr. Vazquez said.

“It was a very tense situation, because you don’t know what he’s going to do afterwards,” he added. “None of us were thinking,” he said, that Mr. Neely would die from the chokehold.

[Occam's Banana]

Another Sharpton quote. This one is especially belabored and ridiculous:

"If Jordan [Neely] had been a different race, and [he had] impersonated Elvis [Presley], and a black guy put [him] in a chokehold, and two black guys held him down, they would not have let that black guy leave the precinct that night."

IOW: "Neely's death was racist, because if this checklist of things had been different in some contrived and 'just-so' ways that I just completely made up, then that would have been racist, too!"

https://twitter.com/EndWokeness/stat...71249918783491

//

[jmdrake]

@jmdrake

Banko was unarmed.

Banko was retreating.

Banko had stolen less that $1000 worth of goods, which in California and San Fran, is a third class misdemeanor.

Banko was put into a chokehold prior to being shot.

Banko's adversary was not charged by a leftist DA.

Banko was a member of politically protected class.

Neely and Banko were both killed by men with, presumably, training in the use of deadly force.

Yet one is having the book thrown at him and the other walks away.

Why is that, Capt. Ron?

I've been planning on launching a law/self defense YouTube channel and this will be the first thing I will cover. I look forward to this forum's feedback. (We need to all start making content instead of just reacting to other people's stuff. We've got to get beyond this forum if we're going to make a real impact.)

Short answer: Self defense comes down to was the accused reasonably in fear for his life or safety or fearful for the life or safety of someone else? If the guard that shot Banko reasonably believed he was being lunged at with a knife, it doesn't matter if there was really a knife or not. Take Tamir Rice (the 13 year old playing with a bb gun that got killed by police). I don't blame the police for that. I blame the 911 operator, who happened to be a black woman. The person who called 911 (she sounded white on the phone but I don't know for sure), said the gun might have been real or might have been a toy. The 911 operator called it in as an "active shooter." Personally I think she should have served years in prison for that. That's reckless homicide at the very least. Anyway, back to Banko. If there was something in Bank's hand that looked like a knife then a reasonable person would be in fear for his life. I need more facts. As for Daniel Penny (ironic that his name is SO close to Daniel Perry), I don't think he was ever scared for his own life or safety. So what fear level did he have for someone else? Jordan didn't have a weapon and didn't strike anyone that day. (Yes I've seen the videos of him punching women on other occasions). I have read (have to find the source) were it was reported that Jordan was muttering something about "killing." Did he raise his fist at anybody? Lunge at anyone? What specifically happened to trigger Daniel to put him in a headlock? Frankly, at this point, I don't know. I haven't even seen the full video of the choke, just still frames. There's misinformation out there that the choke went on for 15 minutes. But the person who made the video said the entire incident happened in 7 minutes and the he started filming about 3 to 4 minutes in. So we've got 3 minutes of video that I haven't seen, so I don't know how long the choke was actually on versus how long they were actually struggling on the ground. I've seen about 5 seconds of video and Jordan can still move his hands. This is so important to this case! Again, there are reports that Jordan was choked for 15 minutes. Absolutely [b]not/b] true! But if Daniel was choking Jordan after Jordan went limp for even a minute, that's excessive.

Expect both the prosecution and the defense to bring in BJJ experts on this case. I've watched two experts talk about this case. The first is Renner Gracie (pronounced "Henner"). Renner is the grandson of the man who founded BJJ. Henner doesn't really analyze what happened as much as he pitches the need for "training." This is a little bit self dealing. The Gracies started the UFC and initially won everything because most of their opponents didn't know submission wrestling. (Well...technically Ken Shamrock fought Rickson Gracie to a draw, but Ken had done submission wrestling in Japan). It's been a long time since anyone named Gracie has been a UFC champion because everybody else knows all their tricks. For a while the Gracies still dominated the spin off sport of submission wrestling. (No striking allowed). Then Eddie Bravo (good buddy of Joe Rogan) tapped out one of the Gracies in that arena. Renner, being a marketing genius, took BJJ back to its "self defense" roots and he emphasizes how police can use BJJ to subdue a suspect without seriously injuring or killing him. The reason I gave all of that background is to set up this video where he accuses (falsely IMO) Daniel of using the choke without properly being "trained." I'm not sure what "training" Renner is talking about, but I suspect it's the training that he is now giving which probably has an element of "Don't keep a choke on for two long" in it. From my training you go for a submission (arm lock or choke), until the other person taps, passes out, the round ends, or you it just seems like it's not working. The "it's not working" really isn't "taught" so much as figured out from intuition. "This ain't working and my arm's getting tired so I'll go to plan B." Daniel was trained in the Marine self defense methods which now includes BJJ. They don't care about someone tapping out. It is for "taking out" sentries. If they pass out or die...doesn't matter. Anyway, here's Renner's video. (My background is probably longer than the video.)



Now here is a lesser known grappling YouTuber I follow named "Chadi." Chadi's video is good in that it explains the difference between a blood choke and air choke. Chadi also gives some ideas on restraining someone without a choke. But Chadi mistakenly believes Jordan was choked for 15 minutes.

Edit: Actually I can't find Chadi's video on Neely now. Maybe he took it down. That's probably for the best. Here's the only video I have seen of the actual choke of Jordan and I can only see about 15 seconds of video.



Chadi does have this other video talking about BJJ being potentially deadly in the street. He is a little critical of the way UFC star Nate Diaz isn't careful about how he lets a bar fight assailant fall without laying him down gently, but he doesn't go after Nate for using a choke in general. He does talk about other ways to restrain without a choke.



Here is a third expert that seems to be in Daniel's corner. He points out that there were 911 calls where people said they thought Neely had a weapon.



That helps with the initial encounter and putting on the choke to start with, but not so much after it was clear Jordan didn't have a weapon. Of course there was the possibility that Jordan had a weapon hidden away on him somewhere which couldn't be known until Jordan was passed out and could be searched.

I was wondering why the protesters didn't want to arrest the other two guys who helped subdue him... well, not really, because one of them was black..

But now apparently the protesters are calling for everyone on the train to be arrested for murder.

Obvious defense of bystander is he lacked training to know Jordan was in any danger. For example the common misconception that if you can talk you aren't being choked. That's not at all true for a blood choke. I recall reading somewhere that the other guy even said something to the effect that the choke was not on, but he might not know about blood chokes. Most people don't.

[Anti Federalist]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to jmdrake again.

I've been planning on launching a law/self defense YouTube channel and this will be the first thing I will cover. I look forward to this forum's feedback. (We need to all start making content instead of just reacting to other people's stuff. We've got to get beyond this forum if we're going to make a real impact.)

Outstanding. I'll be happy to help or contribute in any way I can. I'm not a "on the mats" guy, I'm old, fat and wheezy after a lifetime of hard work.

But I like to think I have the "tools" aspect down pretty well. Defend smarter, not harder.

That said, in the Banko case, what I took away from the video presented was that Banko was backing away and trying dis-engage.

Almost always, the use of deadly force after that point is a no-no.

As to the Neely case, witnesses that I have read said Neely was shouting, not mumbling, words to the effect that "I'll kill every m/fer on here" and so on.

In any other place other than NYC with a Marxist prosecutor, that would be grounds for at least physical self defense.

Or, as we already talked about, the use of a high quality OC spray, which would have shut Neely down without having to lay a finger on him. Neely would still be alive and Penny would not be facing a lynch mob.

[Anti Federalist]

"If Jordan [Neely] had been a different race, and [he had] impersonated Elvis [Presley], and a black guy put [him] in a chokehold, and two black guys held him down, they would not have let that black guy leave the precinct that night."

That's as big a load of pure horse$#@! as the notion that cops don't kill unarmed, innocent white people, simply because they are white.

Depending on whose numbers you want to believe, blacks commit 4 to 10 times as many violent crimes against whites as whites do against blacks, and in many cases, those crimes go unsolved and unpunished.

And that's assuming the Neely case was a "crime".

I say it was justified self defense.

[jmdrake]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to jmdrake again.

Outstanding. I'll be happy to help or contribute in any way I can. I'm not a "on the mats" guy, I'm old, fat and wheezy after a lifetime of hard work. But I like to think I have the "tools" aspect down pretty well. Defend smarter, not harder.

Thanks!

That said, in the Banko case, what I took away from the video presented was that Banko was backing away and trying dis-engage.

Almost always, the use of deadly force after that point is a no-no.

Was Banko still holding stolen goods? Under "Shop Keeper's Privilege" the guard would have the right to keep pursuing people who have stolen goods I think. So if Banko tried to disengage, the guard grabbed Banko, and then Banko made an aggressive move, that would be a different story. That said I need to watch the video.

As to the Neely case, witnesses that I have read said Neely was shouting, not mumbling, words to the effect that "I'll kill every m/fer on here" and so on.

If you've got the link I need it. (Not being snarky. I want to use sources for content).

In any other place other than NYC with a Marxist prosecutor, that would be grounds for at least physical self defense.

Or, as we already talked about, the use of a high quality OC spray, which would have shut Neely down without having to lay a finger on him. Neely would still be alive and Penny would not be facing a lynch mob.

Yeah....it gets to a very fact specific question. How great was the initial threat and did the use of force go beyond what was needed for the threat? Dereck Chauvin still had he knee on George Floyd's neck/back for 2 minutes after Floyd no longer had a pulse. But that doesn't seem to be the case for Daniel and Jordan. However....I still haven't seen the entire video. But Daniel putting Jordan in a recovery position plays in his favor. The Marxist lynch mob is full of crap. Jordan Neely wasn't lynched. Was his death reckless? I don't know.

[Anti Federalist]

Thanks!

More than welcome. I hope it takes off, be happy to contribute.

Was Banko still holding stolen goods? Under "Shop Keeper's Privilege" the guard would have the right to keep pursuing people who have stolen goods I think. So if Banko tried to disengage, the guard grabbed Banko, and then Banko made an aggressive move, that would be a different story. That said I need to watch the video.

The guard spotted Banko leaving with shoplifted goods. He wrestled with him for a while, they broke apart, I think the goods were left behind, they yipped at each other in the door, Banko was retreating backwards out the door and the guard shot him.

In Commiefornia I think you have no right to pursue or stop property theft at all. I could be wrong, I don't know for sure.

If you've got the link I need it. (Not being snarky. I want to use sources for content).

No problem:

On May 1, Jordan Neely boarded the northbound F train and started screaming, then threw his jacket on the ground, Breitbart reported.

“I’m sitting on a train reading my book, and, all of a sudden, I hear someone spewing this rhetoric,” the 60-year-old eyewitness told Fox News. “He said, ‘I don’t care if I have to kill an F, I will. I’ll go to jail, I’ll take a bullet.’”

The retiree said passengers were crowding around the exit signs and that they were all “scared for our lives.”

Yeah....it gets to a very fact specific question. How great was the initial threat and did the use of force go beyond what was needed for the threat? Dereck Chauvin still had he knee on George Floyd's neck/back for 2 minutes after Floyd no longer had a pulse. But that doesn't seem to be the case for Daniel and Jordan. However....I still haven't seen the entire video. But Daniel putting Jordan in a recovery position plays in his favor. The Marxist lynch mob is full of crap. Jordan Neely wasn't lynched. Was his death reckless? I don't know.

Yeah, the mob is full of $#@!...but facts don't matter to a mob...last I read, Penny had to "go to the mattresses" from all the death threats he's getting.

[RJB]

I've been planning on launching a law/self defense YouTube channel and this will be the first thing I will cover. I look forward to this forum's feedback. (We need to all start making content instead of just reacting to other people's stuff. We've got to get beyond this forum if we're going to make a real impact.)

Definitely do that. I've been attempting to get my own channel going, but my only excuse is laziness.

On a similair note, that video of Banko going toe to toe with the security guard reminded me of an encounter I had with a "transman." I also take BJJ. In sparing, I try to win by technique and match my speed, strength and intensity with my opponent. I was sparing with a female to male trans. It appeared she had a masectomy and seemed like she hit the benchpress pretty heavily. She had a gym bro air and looked to be 170 lbs and came at me aggressively as if she was stronger than me and wanted to dominate when we started to roll. At first I was thrashing her pretty rough and surprisingly easily until it dawned on me. Her arms were weak. Her "pectoral muscles" were 3" thick silicon implants. I am usually better at sizing people up, but she had an air similair to Banko Brown going up against the security guy.

I quickly realized that I was grappling with someone with the bone structure, strength, and fighting instincts of a 120 lbs woman, not a 170 lbs man. I backed way down on my intensity after that. I wanted to warn her that she was going to get herself hurt trying to go toe to toe with a larger, stronger opponent (whether on the street or in the gym) but what good would that do in this age? Instead, I just said, "Nice rolling with you, bro."

[Occam's Banana]

I've been planning on launching a law/self defense YouTube channel and this will be the first thing I will cover. I look forward to this forum's feedback. (We need to all start making content instead of just reacting to other people's stuff. We've got to get beyond this forum if we're going to make a real impact.)

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to jmdrake again.

Short answer: Self defense comes down to was the accused reasonably in fear for his life or safety or fearful for the life or safety of someone else? [...] As for Daniel Penny (ironic that his name is SO close to Daniel Perry), I don't think he was ever scared for his own life or safety. So what fear level did he have for someone else? Jordan didn't have a weapon and didn't strike anyone that day. (Yes I've seen the videos of him punching women on other occasions). I have read (have to find the source) were it was reported that Jordan was muttering something about "killing." Did he raise his fist at anybody? Lunge at anyone? What specifically happened to trigger Daniel to put him in a headlock? Frankly, at this point, I don't know. [...]

There have been witness statements by several people on the subway car to the effect that Neely made belligerent threats and they were afraid of him.

Here's one: Witness Says Daniel Penny Is a Hero: 'We Were Scared for Our Lives'

Here's another (@ 8:00+ in the video):

Media Turns Jordan Neely Into Floyd 2.0
In this video I discuss the Jordan Neely case & the overall reaction we have seen from the left & mainstream press.
https://odysee.com/@actualjusticewar...to-floyd-2.0:8

Given the lack of any witness statements to the contrary (as far as I know), it shouldn't be too difficult to establish that Daniel Penny was "reasonably [...] fearful for the life or safety of someone else", given that those "someone else"s seem to agree with that assessment.

And speaking of the Daniel Perry case: other things equal, the witnesses in this case seem to be at least as credible as the witnesses in that case. The witnesses in the Perry case could have had (conscious or unconscious) ideological motives for seeing things the way they say they saw them. That doesn't appear to be much (if any) of a factor in this case.