Stupid Musk, I can't even see the goddamm comments anymore.Originally Posted by Anti Federalist
All of a sudden they're demanding a stop to the knockout game.
Why?
Because of the victim's background.
Last edited by unknown; 09-20-2024 at 11:41 AM.
But of course
“It is not true that all creeds and cultures are equally assimilable in a First World nation born of England, Christianity, and Western civilization. Race, faith, ethnicity and history leave genetic fingerprints no ‘proposition nation’ can erase." -- Pat Buchanan
If America is only an idea, then there is no need for masses of immigrants to come here since they can just create the idea in their own countries. - Random Thought from the Interwebs.
What background? Not white this time?
“It is not true that all creeds and cultures are equally assimilable in a First World nation born of England, Christianity, and Western civilization. Race, faith, ethnicity and history leave genetic fingerprints no ‘proposition nation’ can erase." -- Pat Buchanan
If America is only an idea, then there is no need for masses of immigrants to come here since they can just create the idea in their own countries. - Random Thought from the Interwebs.
Trial starts Monday 21 Oct 2024
“It is not true that all creeds and cultures are equally assimilable in a First World nation born of England, Christianity, and Western civilization. Race, faith, ethnicity and history leave genetic fingerprints no ‘proposition nation’ can erase." -- Pat Buchanan
If America is only an idea, then there is no need for masses of immigrants to come here since they can just create the idea in their own countries. - Random Thought from the Interwebs.
He could impersonate the great film star and former child evangelist, Marjoe Gortner.
His subway affair reminds me of Gortner's character in the cinematic all-star classic movie Earthquake.
9/11 Thermate experiments
Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I
"I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"
"We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul
"It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
Given the current state of affairs, I think that is what the NYC prosecutors are trying to disprove.
I remember the Bernie Goetz case, and that is just what Morganthau tried to argue, under NY law, unless there is both a reasonable and subjective perception of immediate harm to you, as an individual, you have no right to use force of any kind, deadly or not.
Thankfully the jury rejected that argument and acquitted of the most serious charges.
“It is not true that all creeds and cultures are equally assimilable in a First World nation born of England, Christianity, and Western civilization. Race, faith, ethnicity and history leave genetic fingerprints no ‘proposition nation’ can erase." -- Pat Buchanan
If America is only an idea, then there is no need for masses of immigrants to come here since they can just create the idea in their own countries. - Random Thought from the Interwebs.
I remember Bernard Goetz too. Three black teens approached him asking agressively pan handling. One had a screwdriver. He interepreted it as a mugging. (Maybe he was right. Maybe he wasn't. Doesn't matter). He shot (3?) of them. One ended up in a wheelchair. His case all he had to prove is that his initial action was justified because there wasn't a follow up. The Benard Goetz incident was over in what...15 seconds? According to Rener Gracie, Daniel Perry had Jordan Neely in a choke hold for 15 minutes.
I'm pretty sure I've posted ^that video before. That's why I keep saying I want to see the whole video. Was Jordan Neely really in that hold for 15 minutes? That seems odd. The reason why I believe the George Floyd case came out the way it did isn't because it was unreasonable for Derek Chauvin to ever put Floyd on his stomach with his knee on his kneck and/or back but that he kept his knee on there for minutes after Floyd didn't have a pulse. The New York DA can lose the fight over whether Daniel Perry initially had the right to use force, even deadly force, and still win if Daniel kept using what turned out to be deadly force after it was no longer justified.
Here's an example of what I'm talking about.
The man with the gun shot the man who pushed him to the ground after the initial agressor started backing away once he saw the gun. The shooter ended up convicted of manslaughter. I really need to see the whole 15 minute video of this case.
9/11 Thermate experiments
Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I
"I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"
"We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul
"It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
Hero Passenger Stops Train Attacker Or Was It Manslaughter?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFOZGYrL-lY
{Nate The Lawyer | 30 October 2024}
The upcoming trial of Daniel Penny has raised pressing questions about self-defense, vigilantism, and justice. Penny, a former Marine, is facing manslaughter charges following his response to Jordan Neely’s erratic behavior on an NYC subway. Neely, a Michael Jackson impersonator with a history of arrests, reportedly threatened passengers, leading Penny to restrain him in a chokehold—ultimately resulting in Neely’s death. This video breaks down the eyewitness accounts, legal arguments, and contrasting public opinions surrounding this incident. We explore whether Penny’s actions were justified as self-defense or if they crossed into criminal territory. Join us as we analyze the implications of this case and how it’s shaping conversations about safety and law in public spaces.
Let us know in the comments: Was this self-defense, manslaughter, or a case of vigilante justice?
“It is not true that all creeds and cultures are equally assimilable in a First World nation born of England, Christianity, and Western civilization. Race, faith, ethnicity and history leave genetic fingerprints no ‘proposition nation’ can erase." -- Pat Buchanan
If America is only an idea, then there is no need for masses of immigrants to come here since they can just create the idea in their own countries. - Random Thought from the Interwebs.
“It is not true that all creeds and cultures are equally assimilable in a First World nation born of England, Christianity, and Western civilization. Race, faith, ethnicity and history leave genetic fingerprints no ‘proposition nation’ can erase." -- Pat Buchanan
If America is only an idea, then there is no need for masses of immigrants to come here since they can just create the idea in their own countries. - Random Thought from the Interwebs.
Looks like the fix is in ...
https://x.com/beyondreasdoubt/status...51016341602610
to: https://x.com/beyondreasdoubt/status...12573800640644
{LB @beyondreasdoubt | 07 November 2024}
I spent a few hours at the Daniel Penny trial today.
I actually typed up nearly three pages of observations, but I have decided against sharing them. (Sorry.)
For now, all I will say is that it's extremely unlikely he is going to receive a fair trial.
I've been a criminal defense attorney for a long, long time, and I was truly shocked at some of the testimony that the Court allowed today. (Penny's lawyer objected, but was overruled.) And, the behavior by a large percentage of people in the audience borderlines on circus-like.
A journo just DM'd me that at the end of the day Penny's lawyer moved for a mistrial. Folks, that's how bad it was.
OK, I am getting way too many DMs on this lol. Here is one example that I will share with you so you stop contacting me.
One of the witnesses had a clear agenda. Indeed, after he was done, the judge even noted he was an obviously "biased" witness. This person was clearly there to smear Penny and call him a "murderer" as many times as the Court would allow. (As background, he did not witness the encounter, and was only present after the train was in the station waiting for the police.)
He (inappropriately) testified in long soliloquies. At one point, he testified about how he tried to put some water on Neely's face and that Penny stopped him. He then said and I QUOTE: it was like “an abuser abusing somebody and not letting someone near the abused.”
If you don’t want to take my word for it:
There are over a dozen Journos there. Some live blogging / tweeting.
Here's an opinion piece in the NY Post on today's activities: https://nypost.com/2024/11/07/opinio...-and-protests/ [see article below - OB]
OPINION: Fiery testimony and protests erupt on day three of Daniel Penny trial: ‘F–k your rules!’
https://nypost.com/2024/11/07/opinio...-and-protests/
{Kirsten Fleming | 07 November 2024}
As if there wasn’t enough drama in Daniel Penny’s manslaughter case, a wild scene unfolded in the hallway outside the courtroom on Thursday.
As the court began to take a morning break and folks were waiting to be ushered out, a supporter of Jordan Neely – the man who died after Penny restrained him in a chokehold on an F train – started speaking loudly in the gallery, prompting a court officer to tell him to save his conversation for the hallways outside the courtroom.
Instead of politely heeding the officer’s direction, the supporter escalated the situation.
Once in the Manhattan Supreme Court hallways, the man started shouting at the officer, “f–k your rules.”
The defiant Neely acolyte then boldly continued to rant and scream at the officer of the court, who kept his cool and composure as a scrum formed around them.
The verbal altercation continued for a few minutes before he finally left.
The unhinged outburst was part of a pattern of disruptive behavior on day three of the manslaughter trial.
Earlier, a woman in the gallery broke down sobbing during bystander witness Moriela Sanchez’s testimony and had to be escorted out. But her wailing could be heard from the courtroom.
Another audibly cried when a photo of Neely was shown to jurors.
It prompted Judge Maxwell Wiley to gently remind the audience they are not to “visibly or audibly react. The jury in this case is entitled to that.”
But it’s become clear this entire trial – where Penny, 26, faces up to 15 years behind bars for second-degree manslaughter over the death of the unhinged homeless man — is a circus of activism. Justice is merely an afterthought.
After all, Penny was charged eleven days after the incident – as prosecution-averse Manhattan DA Alvin Bragg folded to the outcry from politicians like Alexandria Ocasio Cortez and other advocates, who demanded Penny’s scalp in this racially charged case.
How fitting that the prosecution also called Johnny Grima, a former homeless man and self-described activist working with migrants and the homeless to the stand.
Grima testified that before he boarded the uptown F train that day, he was coming from Tompkins Square Park where he was “checking on homeless people, doing my rounds.”
He was on a different car and stumbled upon the scene as the train was held at the station. He suggested Penny be put on his side so he didn’t choke while lying on his back. He then testified he tried to intervene by pouring water on Neely’s forehead to rouse the man – but was rebuffed by Penny.
“I already felt some way about [Penny]. I didn’t like him,” Grima said. “It’s something like you know when you have, like an abuser abusing someone and they’re not trying to let anyone near the abused.”
Grima was rather loquacious while being questioned by the prosecutor, but he turned combative, disrespectful and nasty as defense attorney Thomas Kenniff had his turn.
His apparent hatred of Penny worn on his face like a badge of honor, Grima repeatedly claimed Penny “murdered” Neely. That he was “flinging [Neely’s] limbs around carelessly” when describing Penny trying to move him onto his side.
Meanwhile Kenniff got Grima to admit some of the testimony he gave contradicted his earlier grand jury testimony.
But Grima’s appearance was an outrageous display of bias. A man with a troubled past – and obvious an agenda. With shockingly little intervention from the judge.
After jurors left, Kenniff asked the judge to declare a mistrial.
“There’s no longer any way that my client can get anything resembling a fair trial at this point given what has happened over the last few days,” Kenniff said.
I don’t think he can either. Not in this climate.
Okay. My problems with Nate's analysis.
1) He keeps calling this a headlock. It IS a chokehold! That's not "media spin." It's possible to put someone in a headlock where you don't have a chokehold. This is an example. https://www.youtube.com/shorts/5fBDIWB0mp0 Does that mean Daniel Penny was TRYING to choke Jordan Neely to death? Nope. But he clearly had Jordan in a rear naked choke. A white belt in BJJ would know that. Anyone who is even a casual MMA fan would know that.
2) We (or at least I) do NOT have all of the information we need. I've yet to see the full 15 minute video. When in the span of 15 minutes did Jordan Neeley go limp? How quickly did Daniel Penny release the chokehold and attempt to revive Jordon?
3) At 6:30 Nate says that prosecutors have to show that Daniel Penny knew there was a risk that Jordan could die from that hold and he ignored that risk. Ummmm...how could he not know? Daniel is a marine. Marines are taught how to kill using that hold. That's like saying "I didn't think there was a risk to pointing a loaded gun at someone." Of course, even if you don't intend to kill someone, there is a risk. If that's all prosecutors have to prove then God bless Daniel Penny.
4) Yeah...I was wondering why the other two who were restraining Jordan weren't charged. But it's not as simple as a question of race as Nate tries to make it seem. Daniel Penny had training on the rear naked choke. The other passengers who were holding Jordan's arms may not have had that training. So did they know the risk of a rear naked choke? It's possible they didn't.
5) Nate is 100% right on his self defense analsysis in that you can use self defense as long as you feel threatened. The question for me isn't if his initial action was reasonable. The question is was a 15 minute chokehold with 2 other people holding Jordan's arms so he wasn't able to defend the choke.
6) At 14:12 Daniel Penny says he did NOT have Jordan Neely in a chokehold for 15 minutes, disputing the eyewitness who took the video. THAT'S WHY I NEED TO SEE THE ENTIRE VIDEO! Was it 15 minutes or a couple of minutes? That makes a hell of a difference.
7) At 14:20 Daniel says there's a "clear rise and fall of his chest indicating that he's breathing." From that position you can either do an air choke or a blood choke. If you do the blood choke it doesn't matter if the person is breathing. That said I believe Daniel when he says that he wasn't trying to choke Jordan to death. But from what Nate said, that doesn't matter. The question is was Daniel aware of the risk? And why did he use a hold across the throat instead of a seatbelt hold?
This video shows the difference.
I REALLY feel bad for Daniel Penny. But the facts in this case cannot be ignored. The medical examiner ruled that Jordan Neely died from "compression of neck (chokehold)." Blame the media all you want but that is a FACT in this case. You can't just euphamistically call it a "headlock." I have not heard a plausible altertive theory to how Jordan Neely died. And everyone who's ever trained submission grappling knows that there is a risk to a rear naked choke. We discount that risk because in training most people tap out before passing out and in the ring there is a referree to stop the fight as soon as someone passes out and medical staff ringside to revive the person. I wish there was something lessser Daniel could be charged with. But I don't see how he walks. Not with the standard Nate laid out in that video.
Last edited by jmdrake; 11-08-2024 at 09:58 AM.
9/11 Thermate experiments
Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I
"I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"
"We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul
"It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
I don't see this guy as a hero.
He's more of an exterminator or a dirty job guy who really enjoys his work.
However, society is not improved with his conviction.
He needs to be acquitted.
The inquisition process is punishment enough.
He will not have gotten away with anything after this.
In fact, look for this guy to have a black cloud over his head for the rest of his life.
Just look at the nation's most famous white hispanic, George Zimmerman.
Rittenhouse is heading for the same fate if he doesn't go underground.
On moral grounds I sympathize far more than Daniel Penny than I do George Zimmerman or Kyle Rittenhouse. On legal grounds Zimmerman and Rittenhouse had stronger arguments. Was the chokehold on for 15 minutes or under 2 minutes? That's the question for me.
9/11 Thermate experiments
Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I
"I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"
"We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul
"It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
I would call any hold around the neck a "headlock", but that comes from someone with an 8th grade knowledge of recess wrestling. Obviously you are deep into the fine details of wrestling and martial arts, but the average person, even someone who has been in the military, would not have that fine detail.
That would be an insanely low bar. Pushing someone has a risk of death.3) At 6:30 Nate says that prosecutors have to show that Daniel Penny knew there was a risk that Jordan could die from that hold and he ignored that risk. Ummmm...how could he not know? Daniel is a marine. Marines are taught how to kill using that hold. That's like saying "I didn't think there was a risk to pointing a loaded gun at someone." Of course, even if you don't intend to kill someone, there is a risk.
There was a case very similar to this in my area many years ago. No race involved. A guy was paying for gas and came back to his car to find a homeless guy standing next to his car exposing himself to his wife. He pushed the guy, he fell backwards, hit his head on the cement, and died.
IIRC, the leftist prosecutors did try to prosecute (because of the "homeless" aspect), but he was acquitted.
"Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
"Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
"Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
"Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul
Proponent of real science.
The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.
No comparison! A marine is taught the rear naked choke as a part of his lethal hand to hand training program. See:
You can't compare a freak accident to ways a particular person has been specifically trained to kill in a particular way.
9/11 Thermate experiments
Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I
"I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"
"We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul
"It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
So I saw a YouTuber talking about this and looked up the story myself. I don't think this particular lie affects the case. Eric Gonzales lied when he said he was on the subway car before Daniel Penny put Jordan Neely in the hold and that Jordan had hit him, but the truth is Eric didn't get on the subwar car until Daniel already had Jordan in the hold. That seems irrelevant to Jordan's prosecution because there were other witnesses who said they felt frightened by Jordan's behavior.
More concerning are the other statements that he made. Gonzales was one of the men holding Jordan's hands. He testified that he told Penny he could let go of Neely's neck and use a different hold since he (Gonzales) and Jordan's hands. Gonzales also said he told Penny to loosen his hold but later to tighten it. Now I agree with Nate The Lawyer that Gonzales should have been charged. Why would he tell Penny to tighten the hold around Neely's neck with three people restraining Neely? And why didn't Penny go for a different hold after help arrived? This is so screwed up.
https://www.dailywire.com/news/witne...to-prosecutors
The witness was not charged with any crimes relating to his involvement in exchange for his testimony
Daniel Penny walks out of the courtroom at Manhattan Criminal Court on November 12, 2024 in New York City.
Michael M. Santiago/Getty Images
A witness admitted that he lied to the prosecution in the case of Daniel Penny, who is on trial for putting Jordan Neely in a chokehold in a New York City subway that allegedly led to his death.
Eric Gonzales, 39, was not charged in exchange for testifying in the trial, Fox News reported. But Gonzales admitted he lied to District Attorney Alvin Bragg’s office when he was first interviewed.
In his initial interview, Gonzales told police and prosecutors that he had been on the subway train with Neely and Penny and that Neely had attempted to hit him. He said this is why Penny put Neely in the chokehold, the Gothamist reported. Gonzales also said at the time that he had helped Penny hold Neely down, and when the two men let go, Gonzales asked Neely if he was okay, and Neely told him, “Yeah.”
But on Tuesday, Gonzales admitted that he had made that story up. Assistant District Attorney Dafna Yoran asked Gonzales why he had lied.
“I was trying to justify my actions for me having my hands on him,” Gonzales responded.
Gonzales wasn’t in the subway car when Neely was making his alleged threats against other passengers. On Tuesday, he admitted that he had arrived after Penny already had Neely pinned to the ground.
“Everybody was frantic and saying, call the cops, call the cops,’” Gonzales said, according to WFIN. “I see those two individuals on the floor, so I assumed one was trying to restrain the other until the cops came.”
Gonzales later testified that he told Penny he could let go of Neely but wasn’t demanding that he do so.
“I said I was gonna grab his hands so you can let go, giving him a different option to restrain him until police came,” Gonzales testified. “If I held his arms down he could let go of his neck. I didn’t think anything of it at the moment, I was just giving him an alternative.”
Gonzales and Penny continued to hold down Neely, and told jurors that at one point he told Penny to loosen his grip on Neely, but later told him to tighten it.
Video of the incident shows Gonzales telling Neely, “We’re not gonna let you go until the cops arrive.”
Multiple witnesses have testified that they were afraid of Neely, who entered the train car and allegedly began ranting that someone was going to die that day and that he didn’t care if he went back to jail. These witnesses have all said they feared for their lives, with some even thanking Penny for stepping in, The Daily Wire reported.
Penny faces up to 15 years in prison if convicted of manslaughter or up to 4 years if he’s convicted on the lesser charge of criminally negligent homicide.
9/11 Thermate experiments
Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I
"I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"
"We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul
"It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
https://nypost.com/2024/11/04/us-new...y-subway-rant/
Never-before-seen footage of Daniel Penny’s fatal NYC chokehold released — as teen witness said she was terrified by subway rant: ‘Thought I was going to pass out’
By Kyle Schnitzer, Melanie Marich and Ben Kochman
Published Nov. 4, 2024
Never-before-seen video played at Daniel Penny’s manslaughter trial Monday shows the Marine veteran gripping homeless man Jordan Neely’s neck on a subway floor — while bystanders plead with him to “let him go.”
The one-minute clip was captured by high school student Ivette Rosario, who testified that she was terrified by Neely’s rant aboard the F train that preceded Penny taking him down to the ground.
“I was very nervous, and I thought I was going to pass out because I was so nervous,” Rosario, now 19, said in Manhattan Supreme Court.
A new video shown at Daniel Penny's manslaughter trial shows the former Marine holding Jordan Neely in a chokehold.
Gregory P. Mango
Rosario’s hands can be seen trembling in the footage — which provided jurors with their first glimpse of the deadly May 2023 encounter at the heart of the high-profile case against Penny.
Explore More
Daniel Penny enters court for his murder trial
Daniel Penny interrogation video reveals him telling detectives ‘I’m not trying to kill the guy’ hours after Jordan Neely’s chokehold death
Witness in Daniel Penny trial lied about his involvement — and proves no good deed goes unpunished
Daniel Penny/ Eric Gonzalez/ Eric Gonzalez on the train with Daniel Penny and Jordan Neely
Jordan Neely looked like he was trying to ‘escape’ Daniel Penny’s chokehold: witness
“He’s dying – you gotta let go!” one onlooker can be heard saying on the video, shot from the platform just outside the train car. “Let him go,” another witness says.
“Y’all gotta hold him down?” a third person can be heard saying.
“Call some cops!” Rosario yells out during the video.
After bursting onto the uptown F train at the Second Avenue stop, Neely, 30, shouted that he was homeless, hungry and “didn’t care about going back to jail,” Rosario told jurors.
Follow the New York Post’s live coverage of the Daniel Penny trial
Rosario testified Monday that Neely’s rant that led Penny to take the mentally ill man down inside the uptown F train as it approached the Broadway-Lafayette station was so frightening that she “thought I was going to pass out.”
The high school senior said that she’d witnessed outbursts on the train before, but that something about Neely’s “tone” made it seem like this was different.
“I’ve been in situations on the train where stuff was said, but not like this,” she testified.
Rosario said she pressed her head into her friend’s chest and closed her eyes, waiting for the train car’s doors to open at the next stop so that she could flee.
Then she heard a thump.
She opened her eyes to see Penny lying on the train floor restraining Neely, his arm pressed around the homeless man’s neck.
Rosario testified that she shot the brief video from the subway platform on her cellphone, and then called 911.
Wearing a brown suit, blue shirt and purple tie, Penny, 26, looked blankly straight ahead at a monitor in front of him while the video was played in court.
He remained stoic Monday afternoon as jurors watched the infamous video, shot by journalist Juan Alberto Vasquez, of Penny holding Neely in a chokehold for several minutes — including after Neely appears to stop moving on his own. Neely’s dad, Andre Zachery, cried into his hands as prosecutors played the video, and briefly left the courtroom as the jury saw the shocking footage for a second time.
Another witness, 51-year-old Larry Goodson, said he warned Penny that he’d kill Neely if he didn’t release him.
Goodson, who took the stand Monday afternoon, told jurors that he noticed Neely defecating and urinating on himself as Penny choked him for several minutes.
“I said if he’s defecating or urinating on himself, you’re going to let him go, because you’re going to kill him,” Goodson testified.
“If you don’t let him go, and that’s the stage his body is in right now, we’re going to lose him,” Goodson recalled telling Penny.
But Penny — who appeared to be in a “trance” — ignored his pleas, Goodson said.
Goodson, who has ridden the subway for 50 years, also told jurors that Neely was not threatening — conflicting Penny’s lawyers’ claim that Neely was targeting specific straphangers.
“I was not threatened. I was not fearful,” Goodson said. “This individual was not threatening me.”
Penny’s lawyer, Thomas Kenniff, asked Goodson during cross-examination about whether he may have a higher threshold for fear than other people, after Goodson acknowledged being addicted to crack earlier in his life and spending multiple years in prison.
“Your life experience may be different than the ordinary person, would you agree?” Kenniff asked him.
Penny has pleaded not guilty, with his lawyers arguing that his actions were justified to protect his fellow panicked straphangers from Neely.
He witnessed Neely say the words “I will kill,” and menacing a woman with a stroller who hid with her baby behind a bench, Penny’s defense lawyer claimed during Friday’s opening statements.
Rosario testified Monday that Neely did not appear to approach any specific person or touch anyone, and that he did not seem to be carrying a weapon.
Prosecutors say that Penny’s initial intent was to help keep passengers safe, but that he went “way too far” in continuing to choke Neely for around six minutes, even after nearly all of the bystanders exited the car.
9/11 Thermate experiments
Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I
"I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"
"We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul
"It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
I'm sorry. But I don't see how Daniel Penny walks. He choked Jordan Neely for 6 minutes until Jordan peed and crapped himself and he kept the choke hold on after people told him to stop because he was killing him (Jordan)? And no, "Nate the lawyer." That wasn't a mere headlock. It was a chokehold and Daniel Penny knew it was a chokehold. He told police "I put him out" and the only meaning that could be is "I choked him out." I don't think he meant to kill Jordan. The prosecution isn't arguing that he meant to kill Jordan. But, from his own words, it seems he meant to Jordan until he was unconsious. And doing that risks death. Yes, you are allowed to use deadly force in self defense, but only for as long as it is justified for self defense. With two other passengers there to hold Jordan's arms, a chokehold was no longer justifiable. One of the passengers holding Jordan's arms said he told Daniel that the chokehold was no longer necessary but Daniel Penny kept it on. Around the same time this happened, UFC Nate Diaz choked someone out in a street fight, but the person didn't die and the entire incident lasted about 30 second. The initial interaction that Nate Diaz had with the person he choked out was less justifying than the use of force by Daniel Penny. But he didn't keep a chokehold on someone while other people were holding his arms and telling him he could let go of the choke. I hate this happed. I hate it for both the victim and the defendant and their respective families. I still wish I could see the entire video. But based on the witness testimony that I've seen so far this was not justified from a self defense standpoint. Sorry @Anti Federalist. I'm sympathetic to Mr. Penny too, but when someone tells you "Stop choking that man because he's shytting himself and you're going to kill him", unless you've got some really good reason to keep the choke on, you should release the choke and go for another hold.
That said, the real villain here is the City of New York for not making the subway safe. I mean, is it that hard to have at least 1 cop or security guard on every train? Not every car, but at least every train? Daniel Penny's choke hold was on for multiple stops. There should be a system in place when there is violence on a subway, someone is there to deal with it at the first stop. And from a "voluntarist" point of view, how many "Guardian Angels" are there in New York now? Daniel Penny as a marine was taught how to kill. But there are retraining holds that could have kept everyone safe including Jordan.
Answering my own question, the Guardian Angels have grown from 70 to over 400 since COVID.
https://abc7.com/post/daniel-penny-s...ideo/15500611/
NEW YORK CITY -- Prosecutors and defense lawyers agree on one thing about Marine veteran Daniel Penny's encounter last year with a distressed, angry and threatening man on a New York subway: Penny didn't mean to kill him.
But a prosecutor told jurors Friday that Penny "went way too far" in trying to neutralize someone he saw as a threat and not as a person, while a defense attorney said Penny showed "courage" and put others' welfare ahead of his own when he placed Jordan Neely in a chokehold that ended with Neely limp on the floor.
Both sides gave opening statements Friday in the manslaughter trial surrounding Neely's death.
On the first day of the trial, jurors also saw body camera video that had not yet been publicly released of Penny's initial encounter with police, four and a half minutes after letting go of Neely.
The case has rattled fault lines surrounding race, homelessness, perceptions of public safety and bystanders' responsibility.
Penny has pleaded not guilty to the charges of second-degree manslaughter and criminally negligent homicide in Neely's death.
Twelve Manhattanites have been selected to sit on a jury panel made up of seven women and five men.
The judge estimated the trial could last between four to six weeks.
Prosecution gives opening statement
On May 1, 2023 Daniel Penny was indifferent to Jordan Neely, disregarded basic precautions and human decency and needlessly killed him aboard a subway car by placing him in a chokehold that lasted "way too long," a prosecutor said Friday in an opening statement at Penny's manslaughter and negligent homicide trial.
"Jordan Neely took his last breaths on the dirty floor of an uptown F train," the prosecutor, Dafna Yoran, told a rapt jury. Penny, she said, believed "Mr. Neely didn't deserve even the minimum modicum of humanity." At the time he died, Neely was 30 years old, homeless and suffering from mental illness.
"We pass people like Jordan Neely every day in our city. As New Yorkers we train ourselves not to engage, not to make eye contact, to pretend that people like Jordan Neely are not there," Yoran said. "On May 1 Neely demanded to be seen."
Neely entered a moderately crowded subway car at the 2nd Av stop and began making threats about hurting people, scaring many of the passengers, Yoran said. "His voice was loud and his words were threatening."
She pointed at Daniel Penny as she told the jury "This man, took it upon himself to take down Jordan Neely. To neutralize him."
30 seconds later, the train arrived at the next station, Broadway-Lafayette, and all the passengers left the train car, except two men who were helping Penny restrain Neely.
"No longer was there anyone left on the train for the defendant to protect," Yoran said. "He continued to choke Jordan Neely even after Mr. Neely had lost consciousness."
Penny has pleaded not guilty. His attorneys have said Neely was "insanely threatening" but Yoran said Penny's actions were unnecessarily reckless because he continued the chokehold for 5 minutes and 53 seconds after the subway car was empty of passengers. "A grasp that never changed," Yoran called it.
"The defendant did not intend to kill him. His initial intent was even laudable," Yoran said. "But under the law, deadly physical force such as a chokehold is permitted only when it is absolutely necessary and for only as long as is absolutely necessary and here the defendant went way too far."
The prosecutor told jurors they would see video of the chokehold. "You will see Mr. Neely's life being sucked out before your very eyes," Yoran said, appearing to upset one of the jurors who grimaced and briefly shut his eyes.
Defense gives opening statement
Daniel Penny stood up to "protect thy neighbor" after Jordan Neely's threats echoed through the closed confines of a subway car that he spoke with "unhinged rage," defense attorney Thomas Kenniff said during an opening statement Friday.
"This is a case about a young man who did for others what we would want someone to do for us," Kenniff said. "It doesn't make him a hero, but it doesn't make him a killer."
Penny was on the F train headed to 23rd street to swim at the gym when a "seething, psychotic Jordan Neely storms on and announces his presence," the defense lawyer said, "Neely whips his jacket over his head and slams it to the ground with such force that even those who don't see it hear it."
The defense said things on the train escalated from "concern to fear" as they sought to portray Neely as far scarier than a prosecutor described in her opening statement.
"Neely sets his sights on a bench of female passengers," Kenniff said. "Danny sees a mother barricading her son behind a baby stroller in fear of Mr. Neely."
Penny heard Neely say "I will kill" and the defense said there was no opportunity for him to deescalate or stop Neely from the harm he was threatening.
"What Danny does do is leap into action," Kenniff said. Borrowing from "a bit" of martial arts training he received in the Marine Corps, Penny put Neely into a chokehold without intending to kill him but, the defense said, to hold him until police arrived.
"His conduct was consistent with someone who values human life and that's why he was trying to protect it so fiercely," the defense attorney said.
Kenniff insisted his client "does not want to use any more force than is necessary" but Neely "aggressively resisted" while in Penny's grip. He said Penny thought Neely, who was unarmed, might have a weapon as he waited for police.
"The evidence will show that this struggle did indeed between 5 and 6 minutes," but Kenniff said Penny "was not squeezing." Instead, the defense suggested Neely's death may have been caused by cardiac arrest, a genetic condition or some other reason that was not asphyxiation. The defense said risk of Neely's death was not something Penny could have perceived or anticipated.
Body-camera footage shown for 1st time
The first witness, a New York City police officer, was among those who tried unsuccessfully to revive Neely. The officer, Teodoro Tejada, testified that Neely did not have a pulse.
The jury saw the officer's body-worn camera footage that captured the attempts to save Neely and showed his lifeless body on the subway floor. When searched for weapons, the only thing officers found in Neely's pockets was a muffin. Nothing else was found in the jacket, Tejada confirmed.
Penny is heard saying, "I put him out," when the officer asked what happened.
To prosecutors, the footage -- which had not been seen publicly until now -- is evidence Penny disregarded Neely's basic humanity.
Jurors attentively studied the video that shows officers frantically trying to revive Neely. At one point, a juror had her hand over her mouth watching as the camera bounced when Tejada joined the chest compressions. Neely's body is seen splayed on the subway floor, sneakers, jeans and grimy, white T-shirt still on.
On cross-examination, Kenniff asked if the officer responded to any calls "of a white male causing any trouble," which Tejada confirmed he did not. The defense also used Tejada's testimony to suggest to the jury Penny did not behave like a criminal by fleeing the scene.
"Did he appear cooperative?" the lawyer asked.
"Yes," the officer replied.
"It didn't appear that he had anything to hide?" Kenniff asked.
"No," Tejada said.
Protesters rally outside courthouse
The sounds of a sidewalk protest over the death of Jordan Neely were audible in the 13th floor courtroom. Protesters were heard calling Penny "subway strangler."
The judge said he would instruct jurors to ignore "noise outside the courthouse."
Penny, in a slate blue suit, strode confidently into the courtroom and took his seat at the defense table.
Members of Neely's family are seated with the spectators.
"I loved Jordan. And I want justice for Jordan Neely. I want it today. I want justice for everybody and I want justice for Jordan Neely," his uncle, Christopher Neely, said before entering court.
Before opening statements, Judge Maxwell Wiley granted a defense request to allow some statements eyewitnesses to the May 1, 2023 chokehold made to police that were captured on body worn cameras.
One witness, a Ms. Rosario, was captured on body worn camera 15 minutes after the incident aboard the F train. "I can see most of that statement coming in as an excited utterance," Wiley said. He declined to allow a part of her statement in which an officer is heard asking whether she thought Neely was on drugs.
A Mr. Latimer is captured a minute later and Wiley said his statement is "well within the immediacy of the event" and could be admitted.
"This person displays emotion, excitement as he's describing what happened. It's narrative," Wiley said.
Most of the passengers who were aboard the train and who witnessed the event are expected to testify at trial.
9/11 Thermate experiments
Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I
"I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"
"We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul
"It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
Bingo.
I'm not a fan of policing, but if there were ever an appropriate time and place, the subway would be it.
I'm sure the last people that would want this would be the cops.
Too much work and too much perceived danger in them riding the train solo........the same risk as everyone else.
And no sweet perks besides their high pay and great benefits.
In many other parts of the country, he would have been legally able to shoot Neely dead, if he could make the case that Neely's threats to kill people were credible.
No need to carry out the act nor even a weapon present on the attacker is needed to act on credible threat to kill you.
Unequal justice.
But I agree, Penny is going to go to jail, for many years probably, and the purpose of his prosecution will be served.
In NYC don't you dare lift a finger to defend yourself, especially if you are white and your attacker is black.
“It is not true that all creeds and cultures are equally assimilable in a First World nation born of England, Christianity, and Western civilization. Race, faith, ethnicity and history leave genetic fingerprints no ‘proposition nation’ can erase." -- Pat Buchanan
If America is only an idea, then there is no need for masses of immigrants to come here since they can just create the idea in their own countries. - Random Thought from the Interwebs.
Yeah but 1) they weren't credible and more importantly 2) if he pulled out a gun and then Neely backed up with his hands up his right to shoot would go away. This is even true in "stand your ground" Florida. I think I already posted this video in this thread but whether I have or not you need to watch it.
I keep explaining the same thing over and over again and people seem to not get it. I'll try once more. In every state, including New York, you have the right to defend yourself or others as long as there is an active threat. When Daniel Penny had Jordan in a choke hold and two other people had Jordan's arms there was no longer an active threat. It's not a matter of one state being liberal and another being conservative or who is white and who is black.
Nope. Absolutely equal justice. If you neutralize a threat without killing someone you don't then have the right to go ahead and kill the person.No need to carry out the act nor even a weapon present on the attacker is needed to act on credible threat to kill you.
Unequal justice.
Defend yourself and others all you want. But after you defend yourself if you go on to kill the person, when you didn't have to in order to defend yourself, that's at least manslaughter. I'm not sure why this is so hard to understand.But I agree, Penny is going to go to jail, for many years probably, and the purpose of his prosecution will be served.
In NYC don't you dare lift a finger to defend yourself, especially if you are white and your attacker is black.
9/11 Thermate experiments
Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I
"I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"
"We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul
"It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to sparebulb again.
Nashville just passed mass transit. I hope they're paying attention to the crime element.
9/11 Thermate experiments
Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I
"I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"
"We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul
"It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
Unequal justice.
“It is not true that all creeds and cultures are equally assimilable in a First World nation born of England, Christianity, and Western civilization. Race, faith, ethnicity and history leave genetic fingerprints no ‘proposition nation’ can erase." -- Pat Buchanan
If America is only an idea, then there is no need for masses of immigrants to come here since they can just create the idea in their own countries. - Random Thought from the Interwebs.
“It is not true that all creeds and cultures are equally assimilable in a First World nation born of England, Christianity, and Western civilization. Race, faith, ethnicity and history leave genetic fingerprints no ‘proposition nation’ can erase." -- Pat Buchanan
If America is only an idea, then there is no need for masses of immigrants to come here since they can just create the idea in their own countries. - Random Thought from the Interwebs.
Just saw something that made me remember Eric Garner, the corpulent brother who was selling single cigarettes on the street who was choked to death by NYPD finest.
Penny needs that cop's defense team.
I doubt Penny's defense team is anything close to that of the killer cop's.
The killer cop walked on the charges with a big thanks and stamp of approval from the government.
Penny's results may vary.
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