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Thread: Build. The. Dome. [Edit: Immigration Debate Pt. 3,187]

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by 69360 View Post
    One word, tunnel.

    The best way to stop illegal border crossings is to make it legal. Just give them a green card. It's not that $#@!ing hard.
    I get that people here have different opinions over what is "libertarian," or what sort of governance is right and proper, but unrestricted immigration seems like it would be a problem for those who consider themselves to be libertarian, libertarianesque, anarchoid, etc., even if supporting immigration restrictions is paradoxical. The problem is that most immigrants come from cultures that have different values, and they bring their different values with them. Many of them, if given the chance to vote (since a green card opens a 3 - 5 year path to citizenship), would likely support more restrictions on free speech ("hate speech," etc.), mandatory vaccinations, more restrictions on firearms, etc. It doesn't make sense to cheerlead the importation of the very soldiers that the government will use to dilute your already weak political power.
    "I shall bring justice to Westeros. Every man shall reap what he has sown, from the highest lord to the lowest gutter rat. They have made my kingdom bleed, and I do not forget that."
    -Stannis Baratheon



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  3. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by nobody's_hero View Post
    Jefferson seemed to favor immigration to the extent that people could be assimilated, but we're not even able to have that discussion anymore.
    ... I doubt the expediency of inviting them by extraordinary encouragements...
    Yeah, "extraordinary encouragements" would be terrible. Good thing we don't do that. All we do is support charities that travel the world gathering up, feeding, clothing and transporting immigrants to our border, while those same charities and our Democrat politicians promise them citizenship, welfare, free healthcare, free education, free citizenship, parties, drugs and even a job (if they want one after all the free stuff).

    Yes, people would get upset with "extraordinary encouragements". That would be the last straw. Good thing that is not happening.
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul

    Proponent of real science.
    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.



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  5. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Philhelm View Post
    I get that people here have different opinions over what is "libertarian," or what sort of governance is right and proper, but unrestricted immigration seems like it would be a problem for those who consider themselves to be libertarian, libertarianesque, anarchoid, etc., even if supporting immigration restrictions is paradoxical. ...
    It wasn't paradoxical when most "libertarians" agreed that eliminating the welfare state was a prerequisite for open immigration. But that opinion doesn't pay the bills for beltway libertarians, and it doesn't fit the narrative of the stealth left libertarians.
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul

    Proponent of real science.
    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  6. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    It wasn't paradoxical when most "libertarians" agreed that eliminating the welfare state was a prerequisite for open immigration. But that opinion doesn't pay the bills for beltway libertarians, and it doesn't fit the narrative of the stealth left libertarians.
    It would also be reversed by the first wave of immigrants to gain franchise.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  7. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Philhelm View Post
    I get that people here have different opinions over what is "libertarian," or what sort of governance is right and proper, but unrestricted immigration seems like it would be a problem for those who consider themselves to be libertarian, libertarianesque, anarchoid, etc., even if supporting immigration restrictions is paradoxical. The problem is that most immigrants come from cultures that have different values, and they bring their different values with them. Many of them, if given the chance to vote (since a green card opens a 3 - 5 year path to citizenship), would likely support more restrictions on free speech ("hate speech," etc.), mandatory vaccinations, more restrictions on firearms, etc. It doesn't make sense to cheerlead the importation of the very soldiers that the government will use to dilute your already weak political power.
    You seem to have the same problem. You make assumptions about the political leanings of immigrants.

  8. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by 69360 View Post
    You seem to have the same problem. You make assumptions about the political leanings of immigrants.
    I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that if open-door immigration was a net benefit for libertarian political influence, the elites would shut down the border in a heartbeat. Must be some reason they promote opening the gates at every possible turn. Like you know, this massive, concerted, propagandized effort to bring in as many immigrants as possible. . .

    can't quite put my finger on it.

    what could possibly be the reason?
    Last edited by nobody's_hero; 01-31-2023 at 09:35 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    This is getting silly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    It started silly.
    T.S. Eliot's The Hollow Men

    "One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors." - Plato

    We Are Running Out of Time - Mini Me

  9. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    Yeah, "extraordinary encouragements" would be terrible. Good thing we don't do that. All we do is support charities that travel the world gathering up, feeding, clothing and transporting immigrants to our border, while those same charities and our Democrat politicians promise them citizenship, welfare, free healthcare, free education, free citizenship, parties, drugs and even a job (if they want one after all the free stuff).

    Yes, people would get upset with "extraordinary encouragements". That would be the last straw. Good thing that is not happening.
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    ...Many of the border crossers staying at the Watson Hotel, paid for by taxpayers, are refusing to leave and have instead set up a homeless encampment outside the hotel. There, they are demanding the city “cancel rent” and provide them with “permanent homes.”...
    My bad, I missed the free housing...
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul

    Proponent of real science.
    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  10. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by 69360 View Post
    You seem to have the same problem. You make assumptions about the political leanings of immigrants.
    Do you believe that more than 50% of immigrants support pro-liberty policies?
    "I shall bring justice to Westeros. Every man shall reap what he has sown, from the highest lord to the lowest gutter rat. They have made my kingdom bleed, and I do not forget that."
    -Stannis Baratheon

  11. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by nobody's_hero View Post
    I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that if open-door immigration was a net benefit for libertarian political influence, the elites would shut down the border in a heartbeat. Must be some reason they promote opening the gates at every possible turn. Like you know, this massive, concerted, propagandized effort to bring in as many immigrants as possible. . .

    can't quite put my finger on it.

    what could possibly be the reason?
    They can't stop it. Nobody can.

  12. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Philhelm View Post
    Do you believe that more than 50% of immigrants support pro-liberty policies?
    If they didn't, they wouldn't come here. If you stop the handouts that number will get closer to 100%



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  14. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by 69360 View Post
    They can't stop it. Nobody can.
    They can't stop what? All in-migration? I suppose they can't.

    But they can stop enticing, encouraging, and engineering these massive inorganic influxes we're seeing.

    They can do that, but they won't - because they know those influxes work to their political advantage. After all, that's exactly why they're enticing, encouraging, and engineering those influxes in the first place.

    Democrats in particular and leftists in general do not support so-called "open borders" immigration policies because they believe in the so-called "freedom to travel", or in the organic and economically natural "free flow of labor"[1], or in any such things. They support it because it gives them more opportunities to gain more power. And this is true entirely regardless of what the political sensibilities of the immigrants themselves might be. The mere presence of such inordinate numbers is exploited as a justification for more government action and control (in the form of more spending programs, for just one of the more obvious examples), which in turn gives them yet more power and control over other sectors (such as health care, education, etc.).



    [1] The "free flow of labor" does not in any way need or require the assistance of innumerable pro-immigration "NGO"s, Chambers of Commerce, and/or activist groups (let alone government - i.e., tax-payer - funded ones).

    Quote Originally Posted by 69360 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Philhelm View Post
    Do you believe that more than 50% of immigrants support pro-liberty policies?
    If they didn't, they wouldn't come here. If you stop the handouts that number will get closer to 100%
    I think the idea that "more than 50% of immigrants support pro-liberty policies" is absurd.

    But even if I'm wrong and that's true - hell, even if it were "closer to 100%"- it still wouldn't matter.

    As noted above, their mere presence en masse is used to justify greater government involvement in and control of education, health care, housing, etc., etc., etc. - entirely regardless of what policies the immigrants themselves do or do not agree with or support.
    Last edited by Occam's Banana; 02-01-2023 at 02:19 AM.
    The Bastiat CollectionFREE PDFFREE EPUBPAPER
    Frťdťric Bastiat (1801-1850)

    • "When law and morality are in contradiction to each other, the citizen finds himself in the cruel alternative of either losing his moral sense, or of losing his respect for the law."
      -- The Law (p. 54)
    • "Government is that great fiction, through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else."
      -- Government (p. 99)
    • "[W]ar is always begun in the interest of the few, and at the expense of the many."
      -- Economic Sophisms - Second Series (p. 312)
    • "There are two principles that can never be reconciled - Liberty and Constraint."
      -- Harmonies of Political Economy - Book One (p. 447)

    tu ne cede malis sed contra audentior ito

  15. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by 69360 View Post
    They can't stop it. Nobody can.
    Of course you can stop it.

    We just lack the will.
    "Unity, for the sake of unity alone, is a fool's objective.

    Who and what are you "uniting" with?

    I would much rather be divided by the truth than united by lies." - Seth Dillon and Anti Federalist

  16. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Banana View Post
    Democrats in particular and leftists in general do not support so-called "open borders" immigration policies because they believe in the so-called "freedom to travel", or in the organic and economically natural free flow of labor, or in any such things. They support it because it gives them more opportunities to gain more power. And this is true entirely regardless of what the political sensibilities of the immigrants might be. The mere presence of such inordinate numbers is exploited as a justification for more government action and control (in the form of more spending programs, etc.), which in turn gives them yet more power and control over other sectors (such as health care, education, etc.).
    It's even worse than that.

    Never forget: these are Marxist wreckers.

    They know millions and millions and millions of migrant invaders will do much more than increase their power in the existing structures of United States society and culture and government.

    That's some tempting window dressing for the fools and useful idiots we have an abundance of to lap up and keep them motivated.

    But ultimately, the goal is the utter destruction of those institutions.

    Liberty, individual freedom, limited government, faith, the bill of rights, every political, societal and government institution and philosophy, once the Marxists have consolidated power, all those things will be as dead and gone as the Tsars and Rasputin.
    "Unity, for the sake of unity alone, is a fool's objective.

    Who and what are you "uniting" with?

    I would much rather be divided by the truth than united by lies." - Seth Dillon and Anti Federalist

  17. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    It's even worse than that.

    Never forget: these are Marxist wreckers.

    They know millions and millions and millions of migrant invaders will do much more than increase their power in the existing structures of United States society and culture and government.

    That's some tempting window dressing for the fools and useful idiots we have an abundance of to lap up and keep them motivated.

    But ultimately, the goal is the utter destruction of those institutions.

    Liberty, individual freedom, limited government, faith, the bill of rights, every political, societal and government institution and philosophy, once the Marxists have consolidated power, all those things will be as dead and gone as the Tsars and Rasputin.
    All of that can be subsumed in my reference to their desire for more "power" and "control". It would not be enough for them merely to want the destruction of which you speak. They would also have to possess the ability to actually implement it - and by the means I noted, unchecked mass immigration would help provide them with (or bring them closer to) the degree of power and control necessary to achieve it.

    But as far as the particular point I was trying to make is concerned, it doesn't really matter what their ultimate aim might be. Even in the absence of such a goal as you describe, that point would remain: it doesn't really matter what the immigrants themselves actually want or believe, or what policies they would or would not support. Their mere presence in such large numbers, all by itself, will be (and is) used to justify and excuse the desired policies (regardless of what the ultimate goal of those policies may be).

    So long as significantly large numbers of immigrants are arriving here as a result of artificially political (rather than organically economic [1]) factors, it doesn't matter how decent or hard-working (or "libertarian", or whatever) some of those immigrants might be. Collectively and en masse, they are still just pawns and cat's-paws being used to empower a coalition of particular political factions to the detriment of liberty.



    [1] An example of significantly large but organically "economic" immigration is the massive influx of Scots-Irish migrants into America in the 1800s. While this did have important political and cultural consequences (as any such large influx is apt to do), this was not the result of an intentional attempt to foster or engineer particular political outcomes (though it was certainly exploited "after the fact", so to speak, by politicians as best they could - because of course it was). The same can rarely (if at all) be said of today's (deliberate inculcation of) mass immigration. (As with so many other issues, the feds should never, ever have been permitted to have anything to say or do about it - and we are now living with the consequences of that failure.)
    Last edited by Occam's Banana; 02-01-2023 at 01:59 AM.

  18. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by 69360 View Post
    You seem to have the same problem. You make assumptions about the political leanings of immigrants.
    It's not an assumption when it's the product of data and history.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  19. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by 69360 View Post
    They can't stop it. Nobody can.
    It's easy to stop it.
    Countries all over the world and throughout history have stopped it.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  20. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by 69360 View Post
    If they didn't, they wouldn't come here. If you stop the handouts that number will get closer to 100%
    They are parasites so they go where the money and power are.
    They don't support liberty, just its fruits. (which they fail to associate with liberty)
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  21. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by 69360 View Post
    If they didn't, they wouldn't come here. If you stop the handouts that number will get closer to 100%
    That doesn't even make sense. We have immigrants who would say that they believe in freedom of speech and then say that disrespecting the Prophet Muhammad should be illegal. Just because they may think that they want to live free doesn't mean that they subscribe to our notion of liberty.

    Also, how is your stance not an assumption? At least my stance is grounded in polling data (immigrants strongly favor Democrats). Sure, poll data is flawed, but I haven't seen anything that would make me think differently.
    "I shall bring justice to Westeros. Every man shall reap what he has sown, from the highest lord to the lowest gutter rat. They have made my kingdom bleed, and I do not forget that."
    -Stannis Baratheon



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  23. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Philhelm View Post
    Also, how is your stance not an assumption? At least my stance is grounded in polling data (immigrants strongly favor Democrats). Sure, poll data is flawed, but I haven't seen anything that would make me think differently.
    From any data based perspective, the idea that the immigrants coming in are anything but Marxist, is entirely laughable.

    I would say 69360 must be high to come to such conclusion, but I doubt he's ever done drugs.
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
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  24. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Philhelm View Post
    Do you believe that more than 50% of immigrants support pro-liberty policies?
    No need for "believing" anything. The experiment has been run, and immigrants tend to support Democratic socialism.

    Quote Originally Posted by 69360 View Post
    If they didn't, they wouldn't come here. If you stop the handouts that number will get closer to 100%
    That's just like, your opinion, man. And it's wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Banana View Post
    ...
    I think the idea that "more than 50% of immigrants support pro-liberty policies" is absurd.
    ...
    Based upon real world experience, it is simply wishful thinking or obfuscation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Philhelm View Post
    That doesn't even make sense. We have immigrants who would say that they believe in freedom of speech and then say that disrespecting the Prophet Muhammad should be illegal. Just because they may think that they want to live free doesn't mean that they subscribe to our notion of liberty.

    Also, how is your stance not an assumption? At least my stance is grounded in polling data (immigrants strongly favor Democrats). Sure, poll data is flawed, but I haven't seen anything that would make me think differently.
    Never let facts get in the way of good propaganda and spin.
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul

    Proponent of real science.
    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  25. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    I didn't say it wasn't.
    Yes you did.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    ...I believe that when the government is capable of doing a thing, it will.
    Quote Originally Posted by Influenza View Post
    which one of yall fuckers wrote the "ron paul" racist news letters
    Quote Originally Posted by Dforkus View Post
    Zippy's posts are a great contribution.




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  26. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by 69360 View Post
    You seem to have the same problem. You make assumptions about the political leanings of immigrants.
    They are not not "assumptions".

    Decades of polling, research and analysis, show that first generation migrants overwhelmingly vote leftist.
    "Unity, for the sake of unity alone, is a fool's objective.

    Who and what are you "uniting" with?

    I would much rather be divided by the truth than united by lies." - Seth Dillon and Anti Federalist

  27. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    They are not not "assumptions".

    Decades of polling, research and analysis, show that first generation migrants overwhelmingly vote leftist.
    And their children and grandchildren do too even if the rate decreases over the generations.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

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