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Thread: Armed diner who fatally shot robber in Houston restaurant heist to face grand jury

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTexan View Post
    Nah, the dude was definitely neutralized before that last shot.
    Yep, that is crystal clear from the armchair!

    Any movement that would justify another shot would have been picked up on camera.
    Don't be ridiculous.

    I'm not saying the dude should be charged with anything. I'm not even saying that the dude was even wrong in making that lost shot ($#@! that dead scumbag).

    I'm just saying it wasn't necessary.
    From the comfort of the armchair, yes, we can all agree that it wasn't necessary.
    Last edited by ClaytonB; 01-11-2023 at 05:17 PM.
    Jer. 11:18-20. "The Kingdom of God has come upon you." -- Matthew 12:28



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  3. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Banana View Post
    (Of course, "the law is an ass", so ...)
    Exactly, and that's why it's important to differentiate between what can seem reasonably necessary in the moment, versus the armchair, with the luxury of pause, rewind, replay frame-by-frame, etc. Was that shot biologically necessary in order to ensure the perp was incapacitated? No, it does not appear from the CCTV footage that it was biologically necessary. However, in the heat of the situation, the defender may have perceived that the perpetrator was still moving or seemed to move. Given that the guy is in darks, on dark, and obscured by the defender, the CCTV footage is not even remotely close to being clear enough to assert, beyond reasonable doubt, that there were no twitches or other micro-movements that the defender may have reasonably interpreted as a last-ditch attempt to attack.

    But armchair quarterbacks gonna armchair quarterback...
    Last edited by ClaytonB; 01-11-2023 at 05:19 PM.
    Jer. 11:18-20. "The Kingdom of God has come upon you." -- Matthew 12:28



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  5. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by ClaytonB View Post
    Yep, that is crystal clear from the armchair!



    Don't be ridiculous.



    From the comfort of the armchair, yes, we can all agree that it wasn't necessary.
    LOL sure OK. If that single shot was placed into any other context, it would be straight up murder.

    Even a cop would have a hard time playing the "you weren't there, man! the video doesnt tell the whole story!" card.
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
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  6. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTexan View Post
    Even a cop would have a hard time playing the "you weren't there, man! the video doesnt tell the whole story!" card.
    Right, which is why a cop would have crouched behind the likely location of any CCTV and then proceeded to just spray-and-pray the dining area in a hail of bullets.

    You've lost track of the narrative: perp committed armed assault and robbery against everyone in the dining area, the defender fired on him at his first opportunity and continued firing until the perp was visibly disabled and disarmed. Killing the perp in self-defense cannot be a tort/crime even if the defender didn't huddle behind a wall and spray the room with bullets while "in fear for his life". In fact, following your (Establishment) line-of-reasoning, effective defense tactics are "unnecessary" and "homicide". Isn't it amazing how that dovetails with the courts protecting reckless police use-of-force. The fact that it was very unlikely that the perp was any threat at the time of the final shot doesn't translate into any moral or legal duty on the part of the defender to refrain from the use of effective defense tactics.
    Jer. 11:18-20. "The Kingdom of God has come upon you." -- Matthew 12:28

  7. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by ClaytonB View Post
    In fact, following your (Establishment) line-of-reasoning, effective defense tactics are "unnecessary" and "homicide".
    Pulling your trigger at even the sign of the tiniest twitch or micro-movement is indeed an "effective" defense "tactic".

    But it is not a justifiable one.

    There are a million ways to justify that last shot - if it even needs justifying. But a "micro-spasm" is not one of them.

    The fact that it was very unlikely that the perp was any threat at the time of the final shot doesn't translate into any moral or legal duty on the part of the defender to refrain from the use of effective defense tactics.
    And on this I have never disagreed...
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Crenshaw 2024!!!!

    My pronouns are he/him/his

  8. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTexan View Post
    Pulling your trigger at even the sign of the tiniest twitch or micro-movement is indeed an "effective" defense "tactic".

    But it is not a justifiable one.
    Again, losing track of the narrative. What is justifiable is the use of effective defense against an active perpetrator. "Keep shooting until they stop moving" is standard firearms defense doctrine you will learn in any competent armed self-defense course. With the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, without pumping adrenaline, in the calm, cool, comfort of the armchair, sure, we can see that the final shot was not biologically necessary to incapacitate the perp. So, instead of 11 shots, the defender "should have" fired 10. That's a 90.9% score which, in a live-fire situation, is a pretty damn good score.

    There are a million ways to justify that last shot - if it even needs justifying. But a "micro-spasm" is not one of them.
    If the last shot really is "legally unjustifiable", then the defender would be liable to charges, which is absurd. All of us in this thread can only speculate about what was going through the defender's head. Perhaps it will make more sense after he explains himself, but even without an explanation, as I stated already, I would have done almost exactly what he did. That final shot would not be off the table for me if I saw the perp move, at all.

    And on this I have never disagreed...
    Then perhaps our disagreement is over the potential seriousness of the word "justifiable" in a legal context. If firing a weapon at someone is not legally justifiable, then somebody's getting in a hell of a lot of trouble. In most states, armed crimes get 10-year sentence boosters, or more. So, yes, it's very important that that last shot was justified. It was justified because the defender was clearly employing effective defense doctrine. All shots were placed on the target and he continued firing until the perp stopped moving.

    What I will definitely agree is that he needs to make sure he has a good lawyer lined up in case the GJ tries to go all "even a cop wouldn't do that"-mode. What happened here was clearly justifiable -- all 11 shots. The last shot wasn't biologically necessary, as we can see from the armchair. But that is in no way related to the question of whether it was legally justifiable. Making that argument could potentially become extremely legally complicated, so I hope he doesn't try to represent himself if this goes to trial, or anything stupid like that.
    Jer. 11:18-20. "The Kingdom of God has come upon you." -- Matthew 12:28

  9. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by ClaytonB View Post
    So, instead of 11 shots, the defender "should have" fired 10.
    Correct. As long as we are both clear on that point, I don't think we really disagree.

    As a side note, to add a small subtraction to his "90.9%" score, I would say he did a poor job managing ammo. He essentially emptied his mag into a corpse, when the perp could have had friends outside.

    So from my quarterback armchair position, I would give him only a 80%
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Crenshaw 2024!!!!

    My pronouns are he/him/his

  10. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTexan View Post
    Correct. As long as we are both clear on that point, I don't think we really disagree.

    As a side note, to add a small subtraction to his "90.9%" score, I would say he did a poor job managing ammo. He essentially emptied his mag into a corpse, when the perp could have had friends outside.

    So from my quarterback armchair position, I would give him only a 80%
    Fair enough
    Jer. 11:18-20. "The Kingdom of God has come upon you." -- Matthew 12:28

  11. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by ClaytonB View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Banana View Post
    (Of course, "the law is an ass", so ...)
    Exactly, and that's why it's important to differentiate between what can seem reasonably necessary in the moment, versus the armchair, with the luxury of pause, rewind, replay frame-by-frame, etc. Was that shot biologically necessary in order to ensure the perp was incapacitated? No, it does not appear from the CCTV footage that it was biologically necessary. However, in the heat of the situation, the defender may have perceived that the perpetrator was still moving or seemed to move. Given that the guy is in darks, on dark, and obscured by the defender, the CCTV footage is not even remotely close to being clear enough to assert, beyond reasonable doubt, that there were no twitches or other micro-movements that the defender may have reasonably interpreted as a last-ditch attempt to attack.

    But armchair quarterbacks gonna armchair quarterback...
    To the question of whether this particular ham sandwich actually ends up being indicted, it is precisely because "the law is an ass" that parsing out "what can seem reasonably necessary in the moment" (from the "armchair" or elsewhere) will be far less relevant than the political ambitions and sensibilities of the prosecutor presenting the case to the grand jury. If those sensibilities require that "what can seem reasonably necessary" be parsed this or that particular way, then that is the way it will be parsed.

    In a sane and just world, only two questions would really need to be answered here:
    (1) Did the circumstances justify the application of deadly force?
    (2) Did the application of deadly force harm only the perpetrator(s)?

    If the answer to both questions is "yes" (as it appear to be in this case), then that ought to dispose the matter.

    Any parsing beyond that will find whatever number of pinhead-dancing angels the parser (whether in the armchair or the grand jury room) needs to find. That the "necessity" (or lack thereof) of the final shot is of more than academic interest is a symptom of the fact that "the law is an ass".
    Last edited by Occam's Banana; 01-11-2023 at 07:00 PM.

  12. #40
    A real life Paul Kersey? I’m ok with that.

    Somebody $#@!ed around and found out. Good riddance.
    Chris

    "Government ... does not exist of necessity, but rather by virtue of a tragic, almost comical combination of klutzy, opportunistic terrorism against sitting ducks whom it pretends to shelter, plus our childish phobia of responsibility, praying to be exempted from the hard reality of life on life's terms." Wolf DeVoon

    "...Make America Great Again. I'm interested in making American FREE again. Then the greatness will come automatically."Ron Paul



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  14. #41


    Last edited by ClaytonB; 01-12-2023 at 02:39 PM.
    Jer. 11:18-20. "The Kingdom of God has come upon you." -- Matthew 12:28

  15. #42
    Activists Demand Defender Face Charges
    In this video I discuss the incident and the backstory of the self defense scenario in a Houston Taqueria
    https://odysee.com/@actualjusticewar...face-charges:b

  16. #43
    Wonder what ever happened to this poor bastard?
    Another mark of a tyrant is that he likes foreigners better than citizens, and lives with them and invites them to his table; for the one are enemies, but the Others enter into no rivalry with him. - Aristotle's Politics Book 5 Part 11

  17. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    Wonder what ever happened to this poor bastard?
    None of the stories I can find even list the defender's name. So....he's most likely not been indicted.
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  18. #45
    Man who shot, killed SW Houston taqueria robber won't be charged, Harris County grand jury decides
    About a year after the shooting, a Harris County grand jury announced it would not be filing charges against the man who shot and killed a robber.
    https://www.khou.com/article/news/cr...3-d6b371b5bb5e
    {Cory McCord (KHOU) | 03 January 2023}

    HARRIS COUNTY, Texas — A grand jury declined to file charges against the man who shot and killed a robber at a southwest Houston taqueria last year.

    The shooting happened on Jan. 5, 2023, at the El Ranchito taqueria on South Gessner Road.

    Eric Eugene Washington, 30, was shot and killed as he walked through the restaurant robbing people, according to police.

    In the wake of the shooting, there were calls for the shooter to be charged. Some called him a "vigilante." Others called the man who shot and killed the robber a hero.
    Restaurant owner Pedro Lopez agreed with the grand jury's decision. He also said the customer who fired the shots hasn't returned in the year since the shooting.

    The 46-year-old shooter was never identified.

    What happened

    It happened just before 11:30 p.m. Thursday at the restaurant on S. Gessner near Bellaire Boulevard.

    Houston police said an armed, masked man entered the restaurant and demanded money and wallets from customers. However, as he was leaving, one of the customers shot him.
    The incident was caught on surveillance video.

    According to police, at the time, the man who shot and killed the robber collected the stolen money and returned it to the other patrons. They said the rest of the people in the restaurant left the scene before police arrived.

    No one else in the restaurant was injured. Investigators said the robber ended up not having a real gun.

    The shooting

    Raw video: Customer at taqueria shoots robber as he was leaving
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPPhFdZas3c
    {KHOU 11 | 06 January 2023}

    A customer at Ranchito Taqueria shot and killed a man who robbed the restaurant in southwest Houston late Thursday night, according to the Houston Police Department.

    The incident was caught on surveillance video.

    Workers at the restaurant were pretty shaken up about the incident. The restaurant said they will reopen around 7 a.m.

    This happened just before 11:30 p.m. at the restaurant on S. Gessner near Bellaire Boulevard.

    More: https://www.khou.com/article/news/cr...1-4c584738e0fa


    Grand jury process

    According to the Harris County District Attorney's Office, "grand juries are composed of 12 randomly selected residents who meet regularly for a period of three months to review all criminal charges to decide whether there is enough evidence for a case to proceed. If nine or more grand jurors agree that probable cause exists, they issue a "true bill," or indictment, and the case continues on through the criminal justice system. If nine or more grand jurors determine probable cause does not exist, they may issue a "no bill," effectively clearing the individual of criminal wrongdoing. The final decision as to whether to indict rests with grand jurors, not with prosecutors."

    "This process ensures that members of the community, rather than the District Attorney’s Office, determine the appropriate outcome in all homicides in Harris County," the DA's office said.
    Last edited by Occam's Banana; 01-04-2024 at 06:48 AM.

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