EVs can't work, and are just stepping stones to banning all personal transportation

[GlennwaldSnowdenAssanged]

My guess is Electric is probably the way of the future.
Battery powered equipment and EV's have come a long ways in a short time.
Maybe one day you will simply exchange your depleted battery for a charged one and be on your way in a couple minutes.
Things tend to evolve.
Having your own power plant would certainly help promote your independence.
Thomas Massie survives off grid and I would bet he would say it is better today than when he started.

[CaptUSA]

My guess is Electric is probably the way of the future.
Battery powered equipment and EV's have come a long ways in a short time.
Maybe one day you will simply exchange your depleted battery for a charged one and be on your way in a couple minutes.
Things tend to evolve.
Having your own power plant would certainly help promote your independence.
Thomas Massie survives off grid and I would bet he would say it is better today than when he started.

As a tool, electric transportation has benefits for certain use cases and significant drawbacks for others. I can certainly see electric being the dominant method of urban travel in the future. But to expand much beyond that, you'll need dramatic technology advances that are still far off. And without the subsidies, even urban electrification is cost-prohibitive.

As for battery exchanges, it comes up a lot in discussions - especially on the medium/heavy duty side... But that has drawbacks, too. It's unlikely going to happen anytime soon on the light duty side. Constantly connecting and disconnecting batteries of that size creates problems when the operation is not well controlled. It's not as easy as exchanging a propane tank. Then, there's the ownership/lessee arrangements. Not insurmountable, but I'd expect electrified robotaxis that return to a hub to charge when needed to preclude the need for exchanges.

[Anti Federalist]

As a tool, electric transportation has benefits for certain use cases and significant drawbacks for others. I can certainly see electric being the dominant method of urban travel in the future. But to expand much beyond that, you'll need dramatic technology advances that are still far off. And without the subsidies, even urban electrification is cost-prohibitive.

The Pennsylvania Railroad figured that out over a century ago.

Why must we keep re-learning this, at such a huge cost?

[CaptUSA]

The Pennsylvania Railroad figured that out over a century ago.

Why must we keep re-learning this, at such a huge cost?

When I worked on the railroad in PA, I ran the EMD-SW1500. 1500 hp electro-magnetic diesel. The diesel engine charged the lead acid batteries and those powered the motor. 1.2 megawatts of output. Electric motors are very responsive and very efficient. But the diesel did the work of giving the power to those batteries! lol - today, they'd call that a hybrid.

(interestingly, when the diesel engine cut out, you could still run off the batteries - for about a minute or so, depending on the load )

[acptulsa]

When I worked on the railroad in PA, I ran the EMD-SW1500. 1500 hp electro-magnetic diesel.

Electro-magnetic diesel? Why would you magnetize an engine block? I'm sure it had some servos on it somewhere, but the SW1500 came with the D-32 generator, not an alternator.

EMD stood for Electro-Motive Division (of General Motors). Before the buyout (and for a few years after) it was EMC, the Electro-Motive Corporation, originally a maker of propulsion systems for gasoline-electric motorcars. They generally used Winton engines, which is how Alfred P. Sloan of GM became familiar with the company. None even had diesel power until after Kettering (the guy who invented the starter motor) created a two cycle diesel engine.

General Electric and Ingersoll-Rand built a real hybrid "oil-battery-electric" switcher in the 1920s because diesels only made 300 horses, which wasn't enough for the job. The batteries would recharge when it was sitting or coasting, and discharge to boost output when hauling a cut of cars. Some had third rail shoes to tap into the New York Central's 600 volt DC system under Grand Central, and were true three power locomotives. They weren't particularly popular because of complexity, and because battery explosions were more common then. They carried a lot more lead/acid batteries than any EMD ever did, which made the occasional explosion pretty spectacular.



The prime mover of NYC 1525 was between the cabs. Batteries filled up both ends, between the cabs and the pilot beams. Wow, like, that's a lot of acid, man.

[69360]

If electricity is so bad, why do we use so much of it?
Why not have a bunch of ICE engines to do all your work?
Grind coffee beans, open your garage door?
Why are big huge machines run on electric motors and not ICE engines?

Depends on the application. Sometimes gas isn't practical, sometimes electric isn't cost effective. As mentioned above, I'm not about to spend $5k on a riding mower when the one I paid $1k for does the same job.

[acptulsa]

Depends on the application. Sometimes gas isn't practical, sometimes electric isn't cost effective. As mentioned above, I'm not about to spend $5k on a riding mower when the one I paid $1k for does the same job.

I thought the answer was that you don't have to mess with heavy, expensive, unreliable batteries when and where you can just plug in the cord. So, why deal with the noise and exhaust? Besides, teeny tiny ICEs aren't the most efficient. And few people have gasoline pipelines to their homes.

Or are these answers too obvious?

[GlennwaldSnowdenAssanged]

Depends on the application. Sometimes gas isn't practical, sometimes electric isn't cost effective. As mentioned above, I'm not about to spend $5k on a riding mower when the one I paid $1k for does the same job.

I paid $7,000 a few years ago for my Gravely ProTurn 160.
Wow looks like it has gone up: https://www.gravely.com/en-us/power-...160,-kaw-fx730

[acptulsa]

When Nixon sold us out at Bretton Wood, that many dollars would buy you this page, pay tag, title and tax on all three, and leave you more than enough change for a lawnmower.

[GlennwaldSnowdenAssanged]

When Nixon sold us out at Bretton Wood, that many dollars would buy you this page, pay tag, title and tax on all three, and leave you more than enough change for a lawnmower.

And, If I owned all those cars today in like new condition, I could own a Gravely and a couple of EV's and a battery powered chainsaw maybe even a battery powered weed wacker!
Monsanto needs to release their grass that doesn't need fertilizer, water, or mowing.

[Anti Federalist]

When I worked on the railroad in PA, I ran the EMD-SW1500. 1500 hp electro-magnetic diesel. The diesel engine charged the lead acid batteries and those powered the motor. 1.2 megawatts of output. Electric motors are very responsive and very efficient. But the diesel did the work of giving the power to those batteries! lol - today, they'd call that a hybrid.

(interestingly, when the diesel engine cut out, you could still run off the batteries - for about a minute or so, depending on the load )

I wish I could start a retirement career running locomotives.

[Madison320]

I have a good battery powered blower. Dual batteries. It pretty much runs out of juice before I am done, every time.

Last week I forgot to charge the battery after the last cut and it was still able to cut the whole yard again. I have about 6000 sq ft of grass to cut.

[Anti Federalist]

Study: The Amount of Copper Needed for EVs Is ‘Impossible for Mining Companies to Produce’

[Voluntarist]

Study: The Amount of Copper Needed for EVs Is ‘Impossible for Mining Companies to Produce’

Note to self:
BHP Group (NYSE: BHP)
Freeport-McMoRan (NYSE: FCX)
Teck Resources (NYSE: TECK)
Southern Copper (NYSE: SCCO)
Rio Tinto Group (NYSE: RIO)

[Voluntarist]

Study: The Amount of Copper Needed for EVs Is ‘Impossible for Mining Companies to Produce’

So what's the stumbling block? (per the story out of University of Michigan)

The shortfall is in part because of the permitting process for mining companies. The average time between discovering a new copper mineral deposit and getting a permit to build a mine is about 20 years, according to Simon.

[Occam's Banana]

"I love it when people say that Ayn Rand's villains were too over-the-top and unrealistic." -- Michael Malice

Study: The Amount of Copper Needed for EVs Is ‘Impossible for Mining Companies to Produce’

They can do it ... somehow ...

“The problem of production, they tell you, has been solved and deserves no study or concern; the only problem left for your 'reflexes' to solve is now the problem of distribution. Who solved the problem of production? Humanity, they answer. What was the solution ? The goods are here. How did they get here? Somehow. What caused it? Nothing has causes."

-- Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged [bold emphasis added]

“You can make it work.”
“How?”
Mr. Thompson spread his hands out. “I don’t know. If I did, I wouldn’t come to you. It’s for you to figure out. You’re the industrial genius. You can solve anything.”
“I said it can’t be done.”
“You could do it.”
“How?”
“Somehow.” He heard Galt’s chuckle [...]

-- Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged [bold emphasis added]

[CaptUSA]

"I love it when people say that Ayn Rand's villains were too over-the-top and unrealistic." -- Michael Malice



“The problem of production, they tell you, has been solved and deserves no study or concern; the only problem left for your 'reflexes' to solve is now the problem of distribution. Who solved the problem of production? Humanity, they answer. What was the solution ? The goods are here. How did they get here? Somehow. What caused it? Nothing has causes." -- Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged

“You can make it work.”
“How?”
Mr. Thompson spread his hands out. “I don’t know. If I did, I wouldn’t come to you. It’s for you to figure out. You’re the industrial genius. You can solve anything.”
“I said it can’t be done.”
“You could do it.”
“How?”
“Somehow.” He heard Galt’s chuckle [...]

-- Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged

"Taggart Transcontinental is a delicate piece of precision machinery. It will not last long without you. It cannot be run by slave labor. They will mercifully destroy it for you and you won't have to see it serving the looters. But copper mining is a simpler job. D'Anconia Copper could have lasted for generations of looters and slaves. Crudely, miserably, ineptly—but it could have lasted and helped them to last. I had to destroy it myself." - Francisco d'Anconia

Apropos to the topic.

[Occam's Banana]

https://www.theguardian.com/business...e-grip-of-suvs

[Occam's Banana]

https://www.theguardian.com/business...e-grip-of-suvs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTYUPuZGbes

[Anti Federalist]

[Anti Federalist]

[Anti Federalist]

https://x.com/i/status/1797781840259956810

[GlennwaldSnowdenAssanged]

Here in Connecticut there is an incentive program where acceptance into it ends June 7, 24. There are different choices.

Basically the utility company will pay the EV owner monthly to charge their EV in off peak hours.

With the solar I purchased, there was an incentive program at the time I bought solar and got connected that paid "REC" credits or $0.0318 per kWh produced whether I consumed it or not and another credit for neighborhood total of $0.0443 per kWh produced for 20 years. That program incentive was short lived, like only 1 year. So suppose I produce 14,000 kWh per year the utility company going to pay me $620 per year on a quarterly basis for this x 20 years = $12,404.

The bottom line is once everyone is forced to go EV, there will be no incentives to purchase EV's or charge them or anything. Once a few more people put on solar there will be no more incentives. Some states have changed their programs making solar not nearly as attractive.

If Gas is going to $12 per gallon and people are going to be forced to go EV, it would be wise to get in when tax credits and incentives are still available.

I understand the hate coming my way but pretty soon you will be purchasing your EV at an inflated price and won't have any tax credits or incentives.

New vehicles are expensive Regardless of ICE or EV. Today you can get into a new EV for a reasonable cost. When you consider the fuel and maintenance savings, and CT caps registration fees at $38 and pays me to charge my vehicle in my garage....

Bottom line is get prepared to get screwed. New Tesla MSRP $49,990. Fed Tax Credit $7500, Connecticut Tax Credits total $4250, if you trade you only pay sales tax on the difference. Brand new Model Y long range $38,240 plus sales tax.

I think the incentive my wife signed up for is $100 cash up front and $30 per month to charge off peak at our home. I am not sure how long that will last but think it is at least 2 years. $820.

Connecticut has some of the highest kWh rates in the nation. I think we are at around $0.27 at this time. It is implied that an EV gets about 4 miles were kWh so it costs about $0.0675 per mile to drive. If you compare that to an ICE vehicle that gets 35MPG at current $3.50 gas price, the annual savings is $390. As fuel prices rise, the savings will be much greater.

Regardless how you analyze the scenario or mock it, you lose. You always lose. No matter how right you are, you lose. The question would be do you want to lose more or less? There is nothing I can do to change government abuse, spending, justice, taxes, civil asset forfeiture, I am a victim to the system. I have to live by their rules. I refuse to only have the negative rules impact me. If I qualify for relief, I am going to take it. Why should I be a martyr for nothing?

It matters not if the Grid can support EV's or not, You will be without power regardless. Another consideration is if a person had solar or wind generating capabilities or any electrical production capability and an EV capable of two way charging, they could power their home from electricity produced while generating power.

Does that work for the city apartment dwellers? No!. Well I don't live in the city. I am getting old and want control of my expenditures. I don't care if electricity rates skyrocket, gasoline prices skyrocket, I don't care if I can't go cross country without cumbersome charging. I have a gas powered Mercedes, Yukon, Windstar and a diesel powered Crew Cab Ford F450. Long trips would probably be in the 450 towing my 42 foot Fifth Wheel or maybe I just enjoy life at my nice home and go nowhere.

Totally your choice. Get incentives and tax credits today to change or wait until tomorrow for the new ideology where there are no positive incentives to change and you change only because gas costs $12 per gallon.

[CaptUSA]

Totally your choice. Get incentives and tax credits today to change or wait until tomorrow for the new ideology where there are no positive incentives to change and you change only because gas costs $12 per gallon.

Or, understand that this is a bunch of political posturing that will not fly with the American public. If you doubt the power of the American consumer over government proclamations, tell me how many kilometers per liter of petrol you're getting with your ICE cars.

In the 70's we were all told that we'd all be on the metric system within a decade... Then, the public said, "yeah F that!"

You can try to justify it anyway you want, but the fact remains that these subsidies benefit the wealthy at the expense of the poor. As Sen. Kennedy stated, "If EV's are so swell, why do you have to pay people to drive em?" There's a market for electric vehicles and people will buy them. You don't need a carrot (subsidies) or stick (mandates), and we should all oppose them.

[GlennwaldSnowdenAssanged]

Or, understand that this is a bunch of political posturing that will not fly with the American public. If you doubt the power of the American consumer over government proclamations, tell me how many kilometers per liter of petrol you're getting with your ICE cars.

In the 70's we were all told that we'd all be on the metric system within a decade... Then, the public said, "yeah F that!"

You can try to justify it anyway you want, but the fact remains that these subsidies benefit the wealthy at the expense of the poor. As Sen. Kennedy stated, "If EV's are so swell, why do you have to pay people to drive em?" There's a market for electric vehicles and people will buy them. You don't need a carrot (subsidies) or stick (mandates), and we should all oppose them.

And he says raise the cost of gasoline to $12 per gallon and people will want EV's.

[GlennwaldSnowdenAssanged]

Or, understand that this is a bunch of political posturing that will not fly with the American public. If you doubt the power of the American consumer over government proclamations, tell me how many kilometers per liter of petrol you're getting with your ICE cars.

In the 70's we were all told that we'd all be on the metric system within a decade... Then, the public said, "yeah F that!"

You can try to justify it anyway you want, but the fact remains that these subsidies benefit the wealthy at the expense of the poor. As Sen. Kennedy stated, "If EV's are so swell, why do you have to pay people to drive em?" There's a market for electric vehicles and people will buy them. You don't need a carrot (subsidies) or stick (mandates), and we should all oppose them.

I can honestly say that after owning a Tesla for about a year, there is nothing I find negative about having it. It is a great car. Super responsive. Very fast. Rarely ever any braking required. Zero maintenance thus far.
The best new car we have ever owned! We have purchased many new cars. Hands down the Tesla is a great car.

No doubt if you want to drive cross country, Tesla might not be the car for you. But, for driving less than 250 miles round trip or commuting, it is fantastic.

Another factor is living in the rust belt of New England, cars don't last over about 15 years without rusting to schite. So if a battery lasts 15 years and I throw the car away it is no different than throwing away the rusted ICE vehicle.

[CaptUSA]

I can honestly say that after owning a Tesla for about a year, there is nothing I find negative about having it. It is a great car. Super responsive. Very fast. Rarely ever any braking required. Zero maintenance thus far.
The best new car we have ever owned! We have purchased many new cars. Hands down the Tesla is a great car.

No doubt if you want to drive cross country, Tesla might not be the car for you. But, for driving less than 250 miles round trip or commuting, it is fantastic.

Couldn't agree more! If you can charge at home and don't have to bother with public charging, the vehicle itself is really amazing! Another reason why it shouldn't need to be subsidized! (The owners of those vehicles should really be paying the full costs.)

Another factor is living in the rust belt of New England, cars don't last over about 15 years without rusting to schite. So if a battery lasts 15 years and I throw the car away it is no different than throwing away the rusted ICE vehicle.

Well, not exactly... The costs to recycle them are also much higher. And environmentally "touchy".

But yeah, Tesla makes really cool toys! I mean, really cool! The issues in this thread were never about how cool they are - they're about the underbelly of things that never get advertised.

They cost more to insure.
They cost more to repair.
They cost more in the road damage.
They cost more to put out the flames.
Public charging is doable, but kind of a hassle.
They're heavy.
They're collecting mass amounts of data inside and outside the vehicle.

But most of all, the increased costs are not borne by the drivers who own them, but by everyone else. If you had to pay the full costs, your cost/benefit analysis of the vehicle might change.

[GlennwaldSnowdenAssanged]

Couldn't agree more! If you can charge at home and don't have to bother with public charging, the vehicle itself is really amazing! Another reason why it shouldn't need to be subsidized! (The owners of those vehicles should really be paying the full costs.)

Well, not exactly... The costs to recycle them are also much higher. And environmentally "touchy".

But yeah, Tesla makes really cool toys! I mean, really cool! The issues in this thread were never about how cool they are - they're about the underbelly of things that never get advertised.

They cost more to insure.
They cost more to repair.
They cost more in the road damage.
They cost more to put out the flames.
Public charging is doable, but kind of a hassle.
They're heavy.
They're collecting mass amounts of data inside and outside the vehicle.

But most of all, the increased costs are not borne by the drivers who own them, but by everyone else. If you had to pay the full costs, your cost/benefit analysis of the vehicle might change.

That may be true.
But, if the agenda is to get everyone into one, sooner or later everyone will have one.
People that purchased later would pay more.

[CaptUSA]

That may be true.
But, if the agenda is to get everyone into one, sooner or later everyone will have one.
People that purchased later would pay more.

I already showed you that their agenda doesn't always come to fruition.

They had an agenda to convert the US to the metric system. FAIL
They had an agenda to install Hillary Clinton as president. FAIL
They had an agenda to get 100% covid jabs. FAIL
They had an agenda to go to war in Syria. Partial FAIL

Now they have an agenda to end personal travel, end private ownership, end free speech and get you to eat bugs... These things will fail as well. They are not omnipotent - they are actually quite pathetic. Which is why they need to steal your wealth and liberty to get you to do what they want.

And as far as people who purchase later will pay more... Those people are ALREADY paying. And once all the costs are socialized, we will ALL pay more.

[acptulsa]

That may be true.
But, if the agenda is to get everyone into one, sooner or later everyone will have one.

Their agenda is to get everybody on the bus. Is that going to work on you?

I've got news for you and them. Existing automobiles can be rebuilt. Happens all the time.

And as far as people who purchase later will pay more... Those people are ALREADY paying. And once all the costs are socialized, we will ALL pay more.

It is an amazing transfer of wealth from the poor to the rich, isn't it? If you can afford fifty grand despite devaluation making all your other expenses intolerable, then those poor slobs on the bus will pay the rest so Elon and Ford don't lose money on your new vehicle. Such a deal.