EVs can't work, and are just stepping stones to banning all personal transportation

[GomerPile]

Tesla is profitable without regulatory credits, although this has not always been the case. Subsidies exist for nearly all industries, and not taking advantage of them would be stupid.

If Tesla can make a profit building EV's, surely the legacy automakers can as well. You can throw $#@! at Tesla all you want. If you carefully look into legacy automakers they have done horrible things in order to boost their share price (IP theft, safety issues, pollution, offshoring, etc).

There are no more free markets...sorry I don't make the rules.

Not sure what you're asking here... Tesla doesn't sell ICE vehicles, so they don't need to offset their losses there. Where Tesla DOES offset its losses is through Regulatory Energy Credits and LCFCS, and the like. So where the other manufacturers fall short of the central planning targets, they are forced to buy credits from Tesla. So, yes, even Tesla purchases raise the price of ICE vehicles from other OEM's.


Are you still trying to pretend that there is anything close to resembling a free market in EV's??? Or are you still burying your head that the vehicle you bought was paid for by other people who have no interest in paying for your toys?

[GlennwaldSnowdenAssanged]

I keep hearing about Tesla losing money, Ford losing money, Nobody wanting to purchase EV's, Hertz getting rid of their entire fleet...

I want to purchase a new EV at those cheap discounted prices. I want to find one of those EV's that nobody wants.

I would be happy with a Ford Lightning, or Chevrolet Bolt, or Tesla Model Y.

Are they cheap? Are they not wanted? Are dealers lots filled with these cars that they cannot sell?

I want one. If they are so plentiful, maybe someone can provide a link to one I can buy at a deeply discounted price.

[buck000]

I keep hearing about Tesla losing money, Ford losing money, Nobody wanting to purchase EV's, Hertz getting rid of their entire fleet...

I want to purchase a new EV at those cheap discounted prices. I want to find one of those EV's that nobody wants.

I would be happy with a Ford Lightning, or Chevrolet Bolt, or Tesla Model Y.

Are they cheap? Are they not wanted? Are dealers lots filled with these cars that they cannot sell?

I want one. If they are so plentiful, maybe someone can provide a link to one I can buy at a deeply discounted price.

https://www.hertzcarsales.com/used-e...01&geoRadius=0

[GlennwaldSnowdenAssanged]

Can purchase a brand new one and get $7500 fed credit and $4200 State for less than $38,000.

[GlennwaldSnowdenAssanged]

My wife decided she wants to trade up and get 2024 Model Y with 7 seats.
At this time they offer the $7500 federal credit instant off the price along with the state credits.
Last year the MSRP was over 50k so didn't qualify for the State credits. This year MSRP $49990.
Trading in the 2023 with less than 10,000 miles.

There are no New Chevrolet Bolts for sale around me.
There are no deals on Ford Lightnings around me.
The Tesla was purchased yesterday but won't be delivered until the end of the month because they have to build it.

So there is no over inventory of new EV's. Maybe there are some EV's that nobody wants like Nissan Leaf but Tesla is not going anywhere and they are not discounting the Ford Lightnings.

Cannot afford to buy used. When purchasing used, have to purchase from licensed dealer, sales price has to be under $25,000 and the most federal credit a person can get is $4000. No state incentives.

Do the math. Those used Hertz with all those miles are just as expensive or more expensive than a new one with the incentives.

[CaptUSA]

My wife decided she wants to trade up and get 2024 Model Y with 7 seats.
At this time they offer the $7500 federal credit instant off the price along with the state credits.
Last year the MSRP was over 50k so didn't qualify for the State credits. This year MSRP $49990.
Trading in the 2023 with less than 10,000 miles.

There are no New Chevrolet Bolts for sale around me.
There are no deals on Ford Lightnings around me.
The Tesla was purchased yesterday but won't be delivered until the end of the month because they have to build it.

So there is no over inventory of new EV's. Maybe there are some EV's that nobody wants like Nissan Leaf but Tesla is not going anywhere and they are not discounting the Ford Lightnings.

Cannot afford to buy used. When purchasing used, have to purchase from licensed dealer, sales price has to be under $25,000 and the most federal credit a person can get is $4000. No state incentives.

Do the math. Those used Hertz with all those miles are just as expensive or more expensive than a new one with the incentives.

What you keep calling "credits" and "incentives" are really SUBSIDIES. Meaning they took money from other people to give to these corporations. Yes, you benefit from the vehicle, but they benefit from the sale they wouldn't have had. Ask yourself, are you in a position that you should be subsidized by lower income people? Or do you just bury your head in the sand about it?

I'm all for electric transportation - heck, I work in the industry - but let them succeed or fail on their own merit.

[PAF]

What you keep calling "credits" and "incentives" are really SUBSIDIES. Meaning they took money from other people to give to these corporations. Yes, you benefit from the vehicle, but they benefit from the sale they wouldn't have had. Ask yourself, are you in a position that you should be subsidized by lower income people? Or do you just bury your head in the sand about it?

I'm all for electric transportation - heck, I work in the industry - but let them succeed or fail on their own merit.

I approve this message. And because it saved me from typing it all ;-)

[CaptUSA]

I approve this message. And because it saved me from typing it all ;-)

I may be a little jaded by the industry. But I do enjoy knocking the self-righteous chip off their shoulders. A lot of the same people who complain about government spending and debt, have no problem sucking on the government's teat all day long. And they do it while feeling good about themselves like they're saving the planet or something. In reality, they're hypocritical leeches draining the wealth of the lower classes and future generations. But somehow, they'll always find a way to rationalize it in their own heads. These little reminders can't hurt.

[GlennwaldSnowdenAssanged]

What you keep calling "credits" and "incentives" are really SUBSIDIES. Meaning they took money from other people to give to these corporations. Yes, you benefit from the vehicle, but they benefit from the sale they wouldn't have had. Ask yourself, are you in a position that you should be subsidized by lower income people? Or do you just bury your head in the sand about it?

I'm all for electric transportation - heck, I work in the industry - but let them succeed or fail on their own merit.

I have been married to two accountants.
Lower income people do not pay income tax or pay very little.
The Tax Credits are not available unless you have taxable liabilities.
I will take what is offered with a clean conscience. I have paid into the corrupt system my entire life.

If you remodel and purchase insulation, would you take the tax credit?

Low income people are not paying for my Subsidy. If you want to argue that the subsidies cause inflation that might be a legitimate argument. But I am forced to have my money extorted to pay for foreign aid/wars that I do not agree with, welfare, housing, too many things to list. So yes I will take this subsidy that I can use.

[CaptUSA]

I have been married to two accountants.
Lower income people do not pay income tax or pay very little.

You suck at this. But hey, however you justify it in your own mind.

[CaptUSA]

But I am forced to have my money extorted to pay for foreign aid/wars that I do not agree with, welfare, housing, too many things to list. So yes I will take this subsidy that I can use.

Boeing CEO: "I am forced to pay for EV's, welfare, education, health care, too many things to list. So, yes, I'll take every subsidy I can get!"

See how that works?! Kinda hard to operate with a clear conscience when you're sucking on the same teat.

[fisharmor]

I have been married to two accountants.

This doesn't say anything positive about your ability to assess value.

[Anti Federalist]

RADICAL RAGE Moment army of black-clad anarchists storms Elon Musk’s Tesla gigafactory in Germany after ‘Vulkan Group’ declares war

Video shows the eco-protesters battling with cops as they breached police lines

https://www.the-sun.com/news/1133175...ctory-germany/

A GROUP of angry black-clad anarchists clashed with police as it stormed the Tesla gigafactory in Brandenburg.

Dramatic footage shows far-left demonstrators defying cops and breaking through police lines before reaching the fence of the Tesla plant.

In another clip, eco-thugs are seen storming over the railway tracks and clashing with police as they make their way to the site.

The radicals are seen running towards the EV plant with some being dragged on the ground by German cops.

One of the protesters and three police officers were injured in the skirmish, Bild reports.

A police spokesperson described the situation as "dynamic" as it is estimated about 1200 protesters are on the plant's premises.

The radical group apparently divided into two groups in a bid to confuse police, the outlet reports.

A number of protesters have already been arrested.

Earlier this week Tesla announced it would halt production in the Gruenheide plant for four days due to protests, German newspaper Handelsblatt reported.

Security level 1 has been in effect in the forest and lake community of Grünheide near Berlin since Thursday.

Demonstrators from all over Germany and Europe gathered at the Grünheider Festwiese to protest against the carmaker.

Grünheide's local council is meant to approve the development plan for the expansion of the plant on May 16.

Tesla is looking to expand the facility after the factory opened in March 2022.

Manu Hoyer from the Grünheide citizens’ initiative told Bild: "We will influence the community representatives to ensure that this does not happen."

Police fear the far-left militant group "Vulkan Group" which has declared war on Tesla could be behind the attacks.

The twisted group posted online that it was "looking forward to an exciting week of action" and that there were "many opportunities to attack companies like Tesla."

The extremist group previously claimed responsibility for the arson attack in the Brandenburg gigafactory in March vowing that "no Tesla is safe."

They described the hit as a gift marking International Women's Day on March 8.

In a 2,700 - word letter posted online the group accused the firm of contaminating the drinking water and blamed Musk for "militarising the road” with cars as a “weapon."

"Together we will bring Tesla to its knees. Switch off for Tesla," their statement reads.

The Vulkangruppe, or "Volcano group" has been on Berlin's radar since it was founded in 2011.

German authorities listed it as a left-wing extremist organisation, operating in the capital and Brandenburg, according to a 2019 report.

Their usual method is to target railway lines or cable ducts, data lines and radio masts.

[PAF]

Hey @fisharmor , @Anti Federalists used the word anarchist right between you and me

[Anti Federalist]

Hey @fisharmor , @Anti Federalists used the word anarchist right between you and me

https://twitter.com/i/status/1788902369511555364

[PAF]

https://twitter.com/i/status/1788902369511555364

That's better. Lumping anarchists in with "far-left extremists" doesn't do any good when the true anarchists simply want government off of our backs

[GlennwaldSnowdenAssanged]

Boeing CEO: "I am forced to pay for EV's, welfare, education, health care, too many things to list. So, yes, I'll take every subsidy I can get!"

See how that works?! Kinda hard to operate with a clear conscience when you're sucking on the same teat.

From 2008 through 2010, Paul won nearly $125 million in earmarks, most of them for spending in his district. Last year, he was one of just four House Republicans who refused to abide by their party’s voluntary earmarks ban. Trying to justify his projects in a 2009 Fox News interview, Paul said, “If they are going to allot the money, I have a responsibility to represent my people.”
https://www.motherjones.com/politics...spending-pork/

[Anti Federalist]

That's better. Lumping anarchists in with "far-left extremists" doesn't do any good when the true anarchists simply want government off of our backs

That's what the MMO's call them.

Just seem to be run of the mill anarcho-communists to me.

[Anti Federalist]

https://twitter.com/i/status/1789289822655316380

[GlennwaldSnowdenAssanged]

I have owned many New Vehicles my entire life and many came equipped with factory Cruise Control.


Most times I elect to not use cruise control because you set it and end up behind someone going slower and can't move over, or are in the passing lane with someone wanting to go much faster.


Another factor is when it kicks in often it changes to a lower gear so it is kinda all or nothing. Once you tap the brake it is off, So it ends up being more work and less efficient to turn on and off and reset when using cruise control. Maybe in the 70's and 80's traveling the highway things were different but today, roads are often packed and traffic is unpredictable.


We went to the Casino last night and my wife drove the Tesla. I asked her about cruise control. She turned it on. Tesla has the best cruise control I have ever experienced. If you are in a lane and approach the vehicle in front of you, the car automatically adjusts the speed and paces the car. Once the path is clear it once again accelerates to the set speed.


Understand this is not a Tesla with self driving options. Another thing about this Tesla is slow down, it is almost instantaneous. That is because the motors are actually slowing the vehicle. So instead of some friction brake pads trying to slow the vehicle by squeezing a rotor, the vehicle almost instantly comes to a controlled slowdown or stop.


The thing about this Tesla is even if you do not have the cruise control on, and you are traveling in 70 mph traffic and all of a sudden everybody is at a dead stop in front of you the car comes to a stop. This stop is unlike any stop I have experienced in any of my other vehicles. If you have not ridden in an automobile like this Tesla and been in that situation, you would not know how controlled the stop is. No skidding or pulsating brakes or wondering if you will stop in time. There is no question in my mind that this controlled stop is almost instantaneous and practical. There is no more stopping than necessary. If you are doing 70 in the right lane and come up to a car with 4 way flashers doing 45, it will slow the car down to 45 but not a half mile before necessary. You would be doing 70 and then in such a graceful manner the car will slow down to pace the vehicle in front. If the vehicle were at a dead stop, the Tesla would come to a complete stop. Remarkable experience.


There is no doubt vehicles have evolved. Maybe all not for the better but denying that many things have improved would mean that you wouldn't be driving anything but a Model A all the time. If you can recognize that there were improvements then you would be wise to recognize the good features in a modern day Tesla.


When a Tesla with autonomous driving gets into a wreck the entire nation hears about it. What about all the human caused wrecks that happen each and every day...." I cannot and will not say if autonomous driving is better than a human, but I know that a Tesla without self driving capability can get you from 70 at highway speeds to a dead stop in a comfortable safe way. I am 100% confident that the Tesla is safer than any other vehicle I own or have ever owned.

I do not think EV's should be mandated.

[Anti Federalist]

Losing $100k per “Sale”

https://www.ericpetersautos.com/2024...100k-per-sale/

By eric -May 12, 20241143

Ford just announced it is “cutting back” on battery orders for its battery powered devices – i.e., its electric vehicles – because it is costing Ford $100,000 to “sell” each device it makes.

Cutting back?

How about cutting bait?

Ordinarily, that’s what Ford – that’s what any car company – would have done already. It is why Ford stopped trying to sell Edsels, which did actually sell. Just not very well. Ford stopped making Edsels because it wasn’t selling enough of them to make it worth making more of them. Similarly, GM isn’t making Pontiac Azteks – or Pontiacs – anymore, either.

But never before has it cost this much to “sell” a vehicle.

A 2024 Ford F-150 Lightning lists for $54,995 (to make it sound better than $55,000). If Ford loses $100k on each “sale” of this device after recovering the $55k someone paid to buy the device then the true cost of making this device is in the range – so to speak – of $155,000.

Put another way, to make a modest 3 percent profit on this device, Ford would have to price it closer to $160,000 – and that is something more than merely a money-flush. It is what detectives call a clue as to what this is ultimately all about. That being to price almost everyone who cannot afford to spend six figures on a device out of driving.

Reason it out.

Why else would Ford – and all the others – continue to make devices they are well-aware are money flushes? Big corporations are not generally run by stupid people, although there are exceptions to that. But don’t make the mistake of thinking that running a corporation into the ground is stupid when there’s money in it for those doing it. The CEO of Ford, Jim Farley, is paid a sum comparable that paid Mary Barra, who is the head of GM. Both are paid more than $20 million annually – and that buys a lot.

Cooperation, for instance.

Both Ford and GM were co-opted after the near-collapse of each back in 2008-2009. The price they both paid to stave off collapse was their cooperation with the forces that have been at war with everything Henry Ford (and Alfred P. Sloan) set in motion more than a century ago. The industry was not reorganized. It was reconstructed. Kind of like the South – by the North – after the South failed in its bid to separate itself from a “union” that was held together by force rather than affection, let alone consent.

As it remains, today.

VW was reconstructed, too. And it is now very cooperative. The industry as a whole has become extremely cooperative. This turnaround has not been as abrupt nor as obvious as a parking brake 180 performed by pulling up on the brake lever (which almost no politically correct new cars have anymore) so as to lock the rear wheels and then by cranking the steering wheel hard over, so as to get the car to come around and end up facing the opposite direction.

But it amounts to the same thing.

The industry no longer seems much interested in selling vehicles to people who want to buy them and can afford to buy them – the two things that are necessary to sell a vehicle and without losing money on the deal. The industry seems very interested, on the other hand, in complying with whatever fatwas are hurled by the regulatory ayatollahs who control the federal apparat. Superficially, this makes a poltroonish kind of sense – in the sense that poltroons don’t like to make waves.

They love to be seen as . . . cooperative.

But when cooperation is suicidal then other motives are probably in play. They include not being personally affected by this cooperation; indeed, profiting from it. When you are paid $20 million in one year – or for that matter, $10 million – then you know that it won’t be difficult for you to pay $160,000 for a device. Or, if you prefer, a vehicle such as the brand-new 1960s Mustangs made by small-batch manufacturers that are exempted from all the “safety” and “emissions” regulations that ran the 1960s – and 1970s and 1980s and 1990s and 2000s-and-up – vehicles (and engines) off the road.

Just like those who can afford to fly privately do not have to deal with being groped by low-IQ government goons.

You’ll have no worries – so why would you worry about whether others do?

Maybe the leadership of the big car companies does not think this way consciously. Maybe neither did Marie Antoinette. Who – never having had to worry about missing a meal – could not conceive of anyone else having to worry about missing one.

Isn’t there plenty of cake to go around?

[Anti Federalist]

There’s Not Enough Power for America’s High-Tech Ambitions

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/ar-BB1mfhwf

Story by David Uberti • 1h • 8 min read

ATLANTA—Bill Thomson needs power fast. The problem is that many of the other businesspeople racing into Georgia do too.

Thomson heads marketing and product management at DC Blox, which in recent years built a string of data centers in midsize cities across the fast-growing Southeast. The company more recently set its sights on Atlanta—the would-be capital of the region—joining a slew of tech and industrial firms piling into the state.

Vying for a piece of one of America’s hottest markets, those businesses tend to have two things in common. One is that they represent a U.S. economy increasingly driven by advanced manufacturing, cloud computing and artificial intelligence. The other is that they promise to hoover up huge amounts of electricity.
That combination means Georgia’s success in luring this development comes with a side effect: Power is a big source of tension. The clean-energy goals of companies and governments are running up against the need for projects to break ground fast. So far, climate advocates fear the imperatives of growth mean more fossil fuels.

Georgia’s main utility, Georgia Power, has boosted its demand projections sixteen-fold and is pushing ahead on a hotly contested plan to burn more natural gas. Critics warn it will yield higher bills and unnecessary carbon emissions for decades. Some companies are scrambling to secure bespoke renewable-energy deals to power their development.

More at link...

[GlennwaldSnowdenAssanged]

Tesla makes a good car.
EV's should not be mandated. Neither Ford nor any other Company should be making EV's if they cannot make money on them.
All mandates and subsidies by Government should be ended. All entitlements should be ended. We should get out of all wars. Foreign aid should be ended. The border should be secure.
We need to fix this: https://twitter.com/WallStreetApes/s...rc=twsrc%5Etfw

[CaptUSA]

Tesla makes a good car.
EV's should not be mandated. Neither Ford nor any other Company should be making EV's if they cannot make money on them.
All mandates and subsidies by Government should be ended. All entitlements should be ended. We should get out of all wars. Foreign aid should be ended. The border should be secure.
We need to fix this: https://twitter.com/WallStreetApes/s...rc=twsrc%5Etfw

But until they are ended, let's all lap up at the teat, amirite?!! We can all find a way to rationalize it in our own minds! Raise the price of combustion vehicles to pay for my toys! Gimme taxpayer money to buy my toys!! Indebt our grandchildren so I can have cool toys!! Explode inflation and hurt the lower classes to make my toys cheaper!! I can rationalize it all later and say, "well, everyone is doing it! It's OK!!"


(Sorry, GSA. I'm a big fan of the technology if it works for you. It's way less efficient to move that much more weight everywhere you go, but it does have lots of advantages for certain drivers. I do, however, want you to come to terms with your hypocrisy and how you're doing backflips in your head to try to rationalize it. It's called cognitive dissonance and rather than accept that you're acting hypocritically, you're in the denial part where you try to deflect and rationalize it all.)

[acptulsa]

Yeah, the line between standing on principle, and getting your share because you can't stop this self-destruction, and you're going to suffer, so stock up on whatever you can while you can. Which is a strong instinct, and not without reason. It's a survival trait.

How long these electrics last before they're mass deactivated, or their batteries get old, is an open question. That's why they don't figure in my survival kit.

[PAF]

Tesla makes a good car.
EV's should not be mandated. Neither Ford nor any other Company should be making EV's if they cannot make money on them.
All mandates and subsidies by Government should be ended. All entitlements should be ended. We should get out of all wars. Foreign aid should be ended. The border should be secure.
We need to fix this: https://twitter.com/WallStreetApes/s...rc=twsrc%5Etfw

No offense intended, but I see you and Mitch in that twitter link as one and the same

[GlennwaldSnowdenAssanged]

But until they are ended, let's all lap up at the teat, amirite?!! We can all find a way to rationalize it in our own minds! Raise the price of combustion vehicles to pay for my toys! Gimme taxpayer money to buy my toys!! Indebt our grandchildren so I can have cool toys!! Explode inflation and hurt the lower classes to make my toys cheaper!! I can rationalize it all later and say, "well, everyone is doing it! It's OK!!"


(Sorry, GSA. I'm a big fan of the technology if it works for you. It's way less efficient to move that much more weight everywhere you go, but it does have lots of advantages for certain drivers. I do, however, want you to come to terms with your hypocrisy and how you're doing backflips in your head to try to rationalize it. It's called cognitive dissonance and rather than accept that you're acting hypocritically, you're in the denial part where you try to deflect and rationalize it all.)

No offense. I have a clear head and have no issue with taking advantage of the abuse. There were years in the 1990's that I paid nearly $100,000 in Federal Income taxes. I still have huge tax liability.
Ron Paul took advantage of Earmarks for his district. It is the same thing. Money is getting extorted and spent. If you want to stand on principle and be financially worse off for it then that is your business.
I quit a $70,000 job when my kids were in college. My son's first year with his full tuition scholarship had a FAFSA parents contribution of $23,000. That was even with his $48,500 per year tuition scholarship. So I was working full time with overtime for what exactly? To be liable to be sued for malpractice, pay taxes, and tuition? Fuch that. I quit working, we survived on one income, Instead of $23,000 parent obligation, the kid qualified for a pell grant, our income taxes went down to next to nothing. Daughter entered college also on Full scholarship. We had more net income without me working than we had when I worked full time with overtime.

So when there are grants by the city to fix old houses and you own a qualifying home, you should just ignore the grants and let every other person use them.

I am against all that stuff. But if it is out there and I have to literally pay for it, I am going to know what is there, and use whatever I can to my advantage.

I put solar on the house. Why? Because of a 30% tax credit and to minimize my exposure to rising out of control energy costs.

I would vote to eliminate all tax credits and income taxes. I would be against all extortion. But, since it is there, I am not going to lose out and pay more. If I meet the qualifications for the credit, I will take it.

You do too. Why don't you just give all your money to the Federal Government? Why do you keep any? Why not give all your money to the state? Why pay any federal or state taxes? Because you have to pay and you take the available credits, deductions, or whatever.

As mentioned Ron Paul voted no on bills but took money from bills for his district.

I am not independently wealthy and even if I was, I would still not overpay per the rules. Fuch that. When I owned a rental home and had deadbeat non paying tenants in the home it took me months to get them out. Judges grant them hardship extensions while they destroy my home and I receive nothing. Screw that schite. I have been paying my entire life.

I stand on my moral ground, you stand on yours.

I am not against you or your principles. Your Government is against you. I don't make the rules, I have to live by them.

[CaptUSA]

No offense. I have a clear head and have no issue with taking advantage of the abuse. There were years in the 1990's that I paid nearly $100,000 in Federal Income taxes. I still have huge tax liability.
Ron Paul took advantage of Earmarks for his district. It is the same thing. Money is getting extorted and spent. If you want to stand on principle and be financially worse off for it then that is your business.
I quit a $70,000 job when my kids were in college. My son's first year with his full tuition scholarship had a FAFSA parents contribution of $23,000. That was even with his $48,500 per year tuition scholarship. So I was working full time with overtime for what exactly? To be liable to be sued for malpractice, pay taxes, and tuition? Fuch that. I quit working, we survived on one income, Instead of $23,000 parent obligation, the kid qualified for a pell grant, our income taxes went down to next to nothing. Daughter entered college also on Full scholarship. We had more net income without me working than we had when I worked full time with overtime.

So when there are grants by the city to fix old houses and you own a qualifying home, you should just ignore the grants and let every other person use them.

I am against all that stuff. But if it is out there and I have to literally pay for it, I am going to know what is there, and use whatever I can to my advantage.

I put solar on the house. Why? Because of a 30% tax credit and to minimize my exposure to rising out of control energy costs.

I would vote to eliminate all tax credits and income taxes. I would be against all extortion. But, since it is there, I am not going to lose out and pay more. If I meet the qualifications for the credit, I will take it.

You do too. Why don't you just give all your money to the Federal Government? Why do you keep any? Why not give all your money to the state? Why pay any federal or state taxes? Because you have to pay and you take the available credits, deductions, or whatever.

As mentioned Ron Paul voted no on bills but took money from bills for his district.

I am not independently wealthy and even if I was, I would still not overpay per the rules. Fuch that. When I owned a rental home and had deadbeat non paying tenants in the home it took me months to get them out. Judges grant them hardship extensions while they destroy my home and I receive nothing. Screw that schite. I have been paying my entire life.

I stand on my moral ground, you stand on yours.

I am not against you or your principles. Your Government is against you. I don't make the rules, I have to live by them.

You see that this is just a rationalization, right?

[GlennwaldSnowdenAssanged]

You see that this is just a rationalization, right?

Call it what you want.

Do you think if Thomas Massie purchased a New Tesla, or New Solar panels, or new Battery Storage, or insulation, for his solar powered home, he would utilize any tax credits when filing his taxes?

[CaptUSA]

Call it what you want.

Do you think if Thomas Massie purchased a New Tesla, or New Solar panels, or new Battery Storage, or insulation, for his solar powered home, he would utilize any tax credits when filing his taxes?

So, a couple things here... First, Massie powered his home with solar panels and a reclaimed Tesla battery that weren't eligible for any credits.

Secondly, you are again deflecting and saying that because someone else does it, we all should do it.

Thirdly, you are not just taking advantage of tax credits to do something you would have done otherwise - you are actively pursuing new ways to suck at the teat of the taxpayer at the expense of the less fortunate. If it weren't for the subsidies, you already admitted you wouldn't be doing this.