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Thread: EVs can't work, and are just stepping stones to banning all personal transportation

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    Thanks for the link, I'll check them out.
    It is interesting tech. Sorry, Pete, but I'm no fan of its looks. The best thing about it is three wheels. Legally, that makes it a motorcycle, and that gets it out from under a ton of incredibly onerous and stupid regulations.

    Yes, AF, three wheels is enough, if your center of gravity is down nice and low.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    You only want the freedoms that will undermine the nation and lead to the destruction of liberty.



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  3. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by ClaytonB View Post
    Energy-efficiency is only a means to an end. A parade is a massive energy-sink, but we put on parades because people enjoy them. It is human ends which are the final measure of "efficiency". This is what the Borg-mind Left cannot comprehend. The real problem with petroleum vehicles, for the Left, is that they empower the individual. And all of that self-determination doesn't promote the Woke Borg Hivemind....
    + rep.

    That is precisely what infuriates the Marxist left.

    As with everything else with those demons, war is peace.

    Nothing promotes egalitarianism, "equity" or individuality more than the freedom to go where you want, when you want.

    Everything the Marxist Borg says it's in favor of.

    From Robert Moses' crackpot progressive road building schemes, (Yes, nominally a Republican, Moses spent his life exercising power under progressive Democrat machine politics in NYC. And yes, the wokesters are right about this: he was a racist who deliberately designed roads to keep blacks away from beaches, and parks and such. Although I imagine more than a few shanty Irish and his fellow poor Jews found themselves blocked out as well.) to Ralph Nader's fictions, to the climate change hor$#@! of today, the Marxist left has hated the "car for everyman" since the very first Model T rolled off the assembly line in Detroit.
    “It is not true that all creeds and cultures are equally assimilable in a First World nation born of England, Christianity, and Western civilization. Race, faith, ethnicity and history leave genetic fingerprints no ‘proposition nation’ can erase." -- Pat Buchanan



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  5. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    It is interesting tech. Sorry, Pete, but I'm no fan of its looks. The best thing about it is three wheels. Legally, that makes it a motorcycle, and that gets it out from under a ton of incredibly onerous and stupid regulations.

    Yes, AF, three wheels is enough, if your center of gravity is down nice and low.
    “It is not true that all creeds and cultures are equally assimilable in a First World nation born of England, Christianity, and Western civilization. Race, faith, ethnicity and history leave genetic fingerprints no ‘proposition nation’ can erase." -- Pat Buchanan

  6. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by nobody's_hero View Post
    When automobiles were invented, the government did not immediately order all horses to be slaughtered. But that seems to be the equivalent of what they're trying to do today.
    It is being Pushed,,and I am opposed to that..

    Build a superior Car,, and let the Market Decide..

    There are a LOT of Teslas on the road,, and several Producers trying to copy that.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  7. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    It is interesting tech. Sorry, Pete, but I'm no fan of its looks. The best thing about it is three wheels. Legally, that makes it a motorcycle, and that gets it out from under a ton of incredibly onerous and stupid regulations.

    Yes, AF, three wheels is enough, if your center of gravity is down nice and low.
    It looks like the stuff I was sketching as a teen. It is very "Form Follows Function".



    Three wheels is less Rolling Resistance than 4.
    Last edited by pcosmar; 12-08-2022 at 10:59 PM.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  8. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    I said you argued the government position, and in the context of the conversation, that's exactly what you did--government can put its fat thumb on the scale and supply will magically appear (never mind that consumers will have to foot the bill for development).
    I genuinely have no idea what your point here is. It's incoherent.

    Do you think that government can't put its finger on the scale of the economy?

    It can. It has. It is.


    Through subsidy, tax break, and regulation (primarily CAFE) it has incentivized both EV usage and green energy. The supply (quantity supplied) demand (quantity demanded) for both are undoubtedly higher than they would be otherwise.

    Do you disagree? Do you think that's not happening, that it won't happen? That it can't?



    Unless you mean that the government position is... physics? Math? Logic? Reason?
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Pinochet is the model
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Liberty preserving authoritarianism.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Enforced internal open borders was one of the worst elements of the Constitution.

  9. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    + rep.

    That is precisely what infuriates the Marxist left.

    As with everything else with those demons, war is peace.

    Nothing promotes egalitarianism, "equity" or individuality more than the freedom to go where you want, when you want.

    Everything the Marxist Borg says it's in favor of.

    From Robert Moses' crackpot progressive road building schemes, (Yes, nominally a Republican, Moses spent his life exercising power under progressive Democrat machine politics in NYC. And yes, the wokesters are right about this: he was a racist who deliberately designed roads to keep blacks away from beaches, and parks and such. Although I imagine more than a few shanty Irish and his fellow poor Jews found themselves blocked out as well.) to Ralph Nader's fictions, to the climate change hor$#@! of today, the Marxist left has hated the "car for everyman" since the very first Model T rolled off the assembly line in Detroit.
    Yep. Here's the shortcut -- think of a daycare or kindergarten. Anything a kindergarten teacher would naturally want to do in the course of managing the kids, is precisely the kind of public-policy measure that the Marxists will always be in favor of (or actively engineer). Fences to keep them in. Check. CCTVs to track them at all times. Check. Daily roll calls. Check. A constant bustle of pointless, assigned activities. Check. You get the idea.

    Of course, to scare us into the arms of the "reasonable" Marxists, the globalist Left also has to keep trained attack dogs to scare the living snot out of us. The deep ecologists are not like kindergarten teachers, they're more like the kennel operators at a pet cemetery. They want us kenneled, (physically sedated is preferable), ready to be put down and fed into the incinerator. "Don't worry, children, the attack dogs are behind the fence and can't hurt you. Recess is over and it's time to come inside -- Mx. Furrilove is going to read you all a gender-fluid story and then we're each going to make a tutu for ourselves out of paper plates and glitter!!"
    Jer. 11:18-20. "The Kingdom of God has come upon you." -- Matthew 12:28

  10. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    I genuinely...
    I don't believe you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    You only want the freedoms that will undermine the nation and lead to the destruction of liberty.

  11. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    The main driver for the downward trend in price of renewables is technology.
    Nope. The MAIN driver is subsidy. There are direct subsidies for "renewable" technologies and there are indirect subsidies that increase the costs of grid operations by adding their intermittency on the grid. Without those subsidies, there is no way wind or solar could be a profitable grid resource. And it's not even close.

    It IS possible now, through technology, that wind and solar can be the cheaper alternative for local energy production in off-grid situations, though. No need to throw the baby out with the bath water. But the ideologues pushing these policies don't care about the costs imposed on non-participants. They want what they want and they don't care about the harm done. And they completely ignore the shared benefits of low-cost energy.

    As economist, Anthony Downs put it, “The elite’s environmental deterioration is often the common man’s improved standard of living.”

    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    Through subsidy, tax break, and regulation (primarily CAFE) it has incentivized both EV usage and green energy. The supply (quantity supplied) demand (quantity demanded) for both are undoubtedly higher than they would be otherwise.
    As typical with The Count, he finally gets around to contradicting his original point. (seriously, it's like nailing Jell-O to the wall with this poster)


    This entire EV industry is a scam to get other peoples' money - not through market transactions, but through government.
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire

  12. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    Nope. The MAIN driver is subsidy
    Coal, oil, and natural gas received $5.9 trillion in subsidies in 2020 — or roughly $11 million every minute — according to a new analysis from the International Monetary Fund.
    https://e360.yale.edu/digest/fossil-...0-report-finds
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom



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  14. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    Coal, oil, and natural gas received $5.9 trillion in subsidies in 2020 — or roughly $11 million every minute — according to a new analysis from the International Monetary Fund.
    https://e360.yale.edu/digest/fossil-...0-report-finds
    Really, quoting the IMF?!! Lol.

    Listen, I've been VERY adamant in here that all subsidies need to end, including those for fossil fuels. The largest real subsidy being our military interventionism to fix the oil markets. But what the IMF is doing here is COMPLETELY disingenuous!

    Explicit subsidies accounted for only 8 percent of the total. The remaining 92 percent were implicit subsidies, which took the form of tax breaks or, to a much larger degree, health and environmental damages that were not priced into the cost of fossil fuels, according to the analysis.
    "Health and environmental damages"... Interesting. They NEVER calculate the health and environmental benefits that more than offset those "damages". Climate-related deaths and illnesses have never been lower thanks to fossil fuels. Low-cost energy is responsible for a 98% reduction in climate-related deaths. Just think of what the air was like in big cities prior to fossil fuels. Manure everywhere, wood smoke billowing, no plastics to store food... the list goes on. But the IMF has an agenda here.

    As someone who has done the research here as part of my job, I will say that a price of carbon is warranted. The problem is that when you accurately price out what the cost of carbon should be, it's so low to make any sort of impact. The harm done per ton of carbon emissions is decimal dust compared to the cost of production or use.
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire

  15. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    Coal, oil, and natural gas received $5.9 trillion in subsidies in 2020 — or roughly $11 million every minute — according to a new analysis from the International Monetary Fund.
    https://e360.yale.edu/digest/fossil-...0-report-finds
    Pardon me for not reading the link, but (knowing the playbook) tax breaks do not equal subsidies.

    Maybe I'm wrong and really governments are giving trillions of dollars to O&G companies and I just somehow missed it, but I'm guessing that's the angle, here.

    ETA: Sorry, @CaptUSA beat me to it! And brought the receipts!

  16. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    "Health and environmental damages"... Interesting. They NEVER calculate the health and environmental benefits that more than offset those "damages". Climate-related deaths and illnesses have never been lower thanks to fossil fuels. Low-cost energy is responsible for a 98% reduction in climate-related deaths. Just think of what the air was like in big cities prior to fossil fuels. Manure everywhere, wood smoke billowing, no plastics to store food... the list goes on. But the IMF has an agenda here.
    Take a stroll thru old town Glasgow, and note the black soot that stains so many of the old sandstone buildings. That ain't from oil and NG... that's from the coal and wood smoke that heated and powered the city through the 19th and early 20th centuries.

    It frustrates me to no end how oblivious people today are of the fact that O&G bi-products have made human civilization and life so immeasurably more comfortable and longer-lasting... humanity is literally - LITERALLY - choking the goose that laid the golden egg.

  17. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    Listen, I've been VERY adamant in here that all subsidies need to end, including those for fossil fuels. The largest real subsidy being our military interventionism to fix the oil markets.
    CaptUSA wins the thread...

    /thread

    Everyone, time to go home, this thread is over.

    Bye.
    Jer. 11:18-20. "The Kingdom of God has come upon you." -- Matthew 12:28

  18. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by A Son of Liberty View Post
    Take a stroll thru old town Glasgow, and note the black soot that stains so many of the old sandstone buildings. That ain't from oil and NG... that's from the coal and wood smoke that heated and powered the city through the 19th and early 20th centuries.

    It frustrates me to no end how oblivious people today are of the fact that O&G bi-products have made human civilization and life so immeasurably more comfortable and longer-lasting... humanity is literally - LITERALLY - choking the goose that laid the golden egg.
    I grew up on a Coal Dock.. Refueling Lake Freighters. Coal heat in the house.

    Times Change..Sail was replaced by steam,,and then oil,, and now a few are Nuclear.

    Lime Island Michigan was deemed "Contaminated",, and has been turned into a Park.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  19. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by A Son of Liberty View Post
    tax breaks do not equal subsidies.
    Jer. 11:18-20. "The Kingdom of God has come upon you." -- Matthew 12:28

  20. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    Current energy supply meets current demand. If demand grows, supply will grow to meet it. If the demand is for green energy, then that is what will be supplied.
    Unless the government interferes too much. There's always a point where government interference becomes too much and the suppliers stop supplying. The gas lines in the 1970s for example.

    That being said I don't believe the govt is intentionally going to keep people from driving. Politicians want votes.

  21. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by ClaytonB View Post
    Not sure what to tell ya, guy. A tax break is not a subsidy. It's just not.



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  23. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    I grew up on a Coal Dock.. Refueling Lake Freighters. Coal heat in the house.

    Times Change..Sail was replaced by steam,,and then oil,, and now a few are Nuclear.

    Lime Island Michigan was deemed "Contaminated",, and has been turned into a Park.
    Okay?

  24. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by A Son of Liberty View Post
    Not sure what to tell ya, guy. A tax break is not a subsidy. It's just not.
    Jer. 11:18-20. "The Kingdom of God has come upon you." -- Matthew 12:28

  25. #51
    Do they know that EVs dont work well in winter, cold climates?

  26. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by AngryCanadian View Post
    Do they know that EVs dont work well in winter, cold climates?
    https://www.taigamotors.com/products/nomad

    https://www.aurorapowertrains.com/
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  27. #53

  28. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by ClaytonB View Post


    At least you spared us an unbearably long-winded, meandering reply.

    Last edited by A Son of Liberty; 12-09-2022 at 09:02 PM.

  29. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by AngryCanadian View Post
    That is just for snowmobiling.
    So... You don't think it'll work on anything else?
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    You only want the freedoms that will undermine the nation and lead to the destruction of liberty.

  30. #56
    Here's a thought...

    Has anyone added up the subsidies to the EV industry?

    I can make this happen.

    There's Infrastructure Investment and Jobs Act (IIJA) [Also, marketed as the Bi-Partisan Infrastructure Law (BIL) by government officials, by the way]
    There's the Inflation Reduction Act (IRA)
    There's the VW Mitigation Trust Fund from the Volkswagen frame job
    There's the Regional Greenhouse Gas Initiative (RGII)
    Utility Ratepayer programs
    Many states find money for programs in other areas of their budgets
    Local municipalities and city investments
    There are also "pseudo-subsidies" where speculative loans are given out because they're relying on the other subsidies

    I can get people working on finding that number, but I may be out of a job for asking the question
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire



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  32. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    So... You don't think it'll work on anything else?
    You're actually defending EVs?

  33. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by AngryCanadian View Post
    You're actually defending EVs?
    Nothing wrong with running your vehicle on electric. The right tool for the right job, you know. They have their place. I think we object to the manner in which the market is being distorted and the propaganda campaigns designed to rob people.
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire

  34. #59
    You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to A Son of Liberty again.

    Quote Originally Posted by A Son of Liberty View Post
    Not sure what to tell ya, guy. A tax break is not a subsidy. It's just not.
    Why, of course it is.

    And the reduction of a spending increase is a spending cut.

    And trans-women are women.

    And freedom is slavery.

    And so on and so forth.
    Last edited by Occam's Banana; 12-10-2022 at 01:24 AM.

  35. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    Just put some ski's on either side and problem solved
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Crenshaw 2024!!!!

    My pronouns are he/him/his

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