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Thread: EVs can't work, and are just stepping stones to banning all personal transportation

  1. #541



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  3. #542
    Quote Originally Posted by GomerPile View Post
    Why is it that it’s always Harvard morons who want to replace what works with what sounded good??
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire

  4. #543
    You don't like the free market and are on this forum?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    Why is it that it’s always Harvard morons who want to replace what works with what sounded good??

  5. #544
    Quote Originally Posted by GomerPile View Post
    You don't like the free market and are on this forum?
    The EV push was hardly free market, but the market is speaking, regardless.

    End of the iCar: Apple Curbs Electric Vehicle Quest in Fresh Drive for AI

    So, this is now how many companies that have dropped or severely curtailed their EV plans?
    “It is not true that all creeds and cultures are equally assimilable in a First World nation born of England, Christianity, and Western civilization. Race, faith, ethnicity and history leave genetic fingerprints no ‘proposition nation’ can erase." -- Pat Buchanan



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  7. #545
    Quote Originally Posted by GomerPile View Post
    You don't like the free market and are on this forum?
    You think businesses deciding what proposed infrastructure will and won't be useful to them isn't "free market"?

  8. #546
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    The EV push was hardly free market, but the market is speaking, regardless.

    End of the iCar: Apple Curbs Electric Vehicle Quest in Fresh Drive for AI

    So, this is now how many companies that have dropped or severely curtailed their EV plans?
    You will discover that the companies curtailing their plans are the ones who built half-assed products that no one wants.

    Proof of this is the most basic feature...public charging. They all supported the stogy old CCS standard. The charging plug for CCS looks like something a 12-year-old would design, it's just awful. To make matters worse, they left the public charging network in the hands of companies that are too stupid to exist.

    OTOH, Tesla designed bespoke BEVs that people actually want to buy. They run a public charging network that works (imagine that). In fact, it works so well that all the other automakers are switching to the NACS plug so they can use the Tesla charging network (...you led Mary).

    I have no doubt that traditional automakers have learned from this experience and are busy working on designs for a $25K mass-produced BEV. Ford recently said they are working on one, and Tesla has been doing it for quite some time. Chinese companies like BYD already have models to compete in this segment (just not in the US yet).

    The $25K BEV will be the tipping point IMO. Low maintenance costs, home charging is generally cheaper than gasoline, they are fun to drive. To be fair the cost savings are not what they should be due to low gas prices. Gas near me is $3.20 and I commute 100 miles per day and save about $60 per month.

  9. #547
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    You think businesses deciding what proposed infrastructure will and won't be useful to them isn't "free market"?
    Business with a monopoly on the distribution of the product to be clear. They want to sell their IDENTICAL product for more money. With a monopoly on distribution, they can get away with it.

    This practice is not without harm. Hydro companies want to sell power to New England but have been unable to do it. We are keeping coal plants open, very old nuclear plants running, and using lots of gas turbines. Hydro power is pretty clean compared to these other power sources.

  10. #548
    Quote Originally Posted by GomerPile View Post
    Business with a monopoly on the distribution of the product to be clear.
    So why did you pretend the free market had anything to do with it?

  11. #549
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    So why did you pretend the free market had anything to do with it?
    It's a regulated monopoly where regulation should force it to operate like a free market would. Not allowing cheaper electricity to be sold over it because a local supplier won't make as much money is against the spirit of a regulated monopoly. The best power suppliers are not being rewarded for their investments....thats an issue.

  12. #550
    Quote Originally Posted by GomerPile View Post
    It's a regulated monopoly where regulation should force it to operate like a free market would. Not allowing cheaper electricity to be sold over it because a local supplier won't make as much money is against the spirit of a regulated monopoly. The best power suppliers are not being rewarded for their investments....thats an issue.
    We're on the brink of totalitarianism, WWIII is breaking out, and we're suffering from myocarditis, turbo cancers and calamari in our veins.

    It's not much of one. I hope you'll pardon me if I don't get overly excited about it.

    Last edited by acptulsa; 02-28-2024 at 05:05 PM.

  13. #551
    True.

    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    We're on the brink of totalitarianism, WWIII is breaking out, and we're suffering from myocarditis, turbo cancers and calamari in our veins.

    It's not much of one. I hope you'll pardon me if I don't get overly excited about it.


  14. #552
    Jer. 11:18-20. "The Kingdom of God has come upon you." -- Matthew 12:28



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  16. #553
    Quote Originally Posted by GomerPile View Post
    You don't like the free market and are on this forum?
    While you on here spouting ill-informed nonsense, I’ve been attending Distributech in Orlando and presenting to industry experts about the follies of subsidies in this space. (Yeah, I make my living doing this…. You’re an koolaid drinking internet warrior)


    I’ll respond to that Harvard “opinion piece” when I get back.
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire

  17. #554
    Quote Originally Posted by ClaytonB View Post
    For some reason that tickled my funny bone...I LOLed for good long while over that.

    +rep
    “It is not true that all creeds and cultures are equally assimilable in a First World nation born of England, Christianity, and Western civilization. Race, faith, ethnicity and history leave genetic fingerprints no ‘proposition nation’ can erase." -- Pat Buchanan

  18. #555
    Can we compile a list of all automakers that have dropped, scaled back or decreased EV production over the last six months?

    Especially ones that claimed they would be all electric by such and such a date.

    Mercedes, VW, GM off the top of my head.
    “It is not true that all creeds and cultures are equally assimilable in a First World nation born of England, Christianity, and Western civilization. Race, faith, ethnicity and history leave genetic fingerprints no ‘proposition nation’ can erase." -- Pat Buchanan

  19. #556
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    For some reason that tickled my funny bone...I LOLed for good long while over that.

    +rep
    Here, have a free screen-wipe on me, to get that Coke (or your poison of choice) off the screen...
    Jer. 11:18-20. "The Kingdom of God has come upon you." -- Matthew 12:28

  20. #557
    Quote Originally Posted by GomerPile View Post
    ...To be fair the cost savings are not what they should be due to low gas prices. Gas near me is $3.20 and I commute 100 miles per day and save about $60 per month.
    The gas is too damn low! We should have the price of gasoline follow minimum wage. $20/gallon!
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul

    Proponent of real science.
    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  21. #558
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    Can we compile a list of all automakers that have dropped, scaled back or decreased EV production over the last six months?

    Especially ones that claimed they would be all electric by such and such a date.

    Mercedes, VW, GM off the top of my head.
    I think Rivian, too.

  22. #559
    Quote Originally Posted by A Son of Liberty View Post
    I think Rivian, too.
    And Ford.
    “It is not true that all creeds and cultures are equally assimilable in a First World nation born of England, Christianity, and Western civilization. Race, faith, ethnicity and history leave genetic fingerprints no ‘proposition nation’ can erase." -- Pat Buchanan

  23. #560
    Last edited by CaptUSA; 03-05-2024 at 12:15 PM.
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire



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  25. #561

  26. #562

    EV Euphoria is Dead

    EV euphoria is dead. Automakers are scaling back or delaying their electric vehicle plans.

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news...rs/ar-BB1jOCcg

    Automakers from Ford Motor and General Motors to Mercedes-Benz, Volkswagen, Jaguar Land Rover and Aston Martin are scaling back or delaying their electric vehicle plans.
    Though consumer demand for EVs hasn't shown up in the way executives had expected, sales of the vehicles are still predicted to increase in the years to come.
    A broad return to a more mixed offering of vehicles — with lineups of gas-powered vehicles alongside hybrids and fully electric options — assumes an all-electric future at a much slower pace, and it calls attention to ambitious EV targets set for the years ahead.

    DETROIT — The buzz around electric vehicles is wearing off.

    For years, the automotive industry has been in a state of EV euphoria. Automakers trotted out optimistic sales forecasts for electric models and announced ambitious targets for EV growth. Wall Street boosted valuations for legacy automakers and startup entrants alike, based in part on their visions for an EV future.

    Now the hype is dwindling, and companies are again cheering consumer choice. Automakers from Ford Motor and General Motors to Mercedes-Benz, Volkswagen, Jaguar Land Rover and Aston Martin are scaling back or delaying their electric vehicle plans.

    Even U.S. EV leader Tesla, which is estimated to have accounted for 55% of EV sales in the country in 2023, is bracing for what "may be a notably lower" rate of growth, CEO Elon Musk said in late January.

    The broad return to a more mixed offering of vehicles — with lineups of gas-powered vehicles alongside hybrids and fully-electric options — still assumes an all-electric future, eventually, but at a much slower pace of adoption than previously expected.

    "What we saw in '21 and '22 was a temporary market spike where the demand for EVs really took off," said Marin Gjaja, chief operating officer for Ford's EV unit, during a recent interview with CNBC. "It's still growing but not nearly at the rate we thought it might have in '21, '22."

    Ford is significantly increasing its production and sales of hybrid models, which can help ease the transition to electrified vehicles for drivers who may not be ready for fully electric models. They can also help companies meet tighter federal standards for carbon emissions.

    GM, which was the first traditional automaker to go all in on EVs, plans to roll out plug-in hybrid electric vehicles for consumers alongside EVs and gas cars. Others, such as Hyundai Motor, Kia, Toyota Motor and, potentially, Volkswagen, plan to offer different levels of electrification across their lineups.

    "I think the balanced approach is the best way," VW of America CEO Pablo Di Si told CNBC last month, adding he is in discussions to bring hybrid vehicles to the U.S. The automaker currently sells hybrid vehicles in Europe, but none stateside.

    "These technologies exist within the VW group, whether it's hybrids or plug-in hybrids," he said. "I think it's just a matter of time until we bring it here."

    To be clear, although consumer demand for EVs hasn't shown up in the way executives had expected, sales of the vehicles are still predicted to increase in the years to come.

    U.S. EV sales were a record 1.2 million units last year, representing 7.6% of the overall national market, Cox Automotive estimates. That share is expected to increase to between 30% and 39% by the end of the decade, according to analyst forecasts.

    "The market was never going to make a smooth transition to EVs, and we expected a slowdown in this shift as early adopters were satisfied," said Sam Fiorani, vice president of global vehicle forecasting at AutoForecast Solutions. "Moving on to less tech-savvy buyers will slow the EV market share growth over the next few years."

    EV targets
    As ESG investing — or investing geared toward environmental, social and governance principles — emerged in recent years and as Tesla rose from niche EV player to the most valued automaker by market cap globally in 2020, the automotive industry largely took note and began plotting its path forward in EVs.

    Automakers wanted to emulate Tesla's success, with some promising to exclusively offer EVs in the not-too-distant future.

    Among those targets: Stellantis-owned Alfa Romeo said its vehicle lineup would be all-electric by 2027. Jaguar Land Rover and Volvo said the same but by 2030. GM said it would offer only electric consumer vehicles by 2035, with its brands Buick and Cadillac aiming to exclusively offer EVs five years sooner. Honda Motor set its target to exclusively sell EVs and fuel-cell-powered vehicles in North America by 2040. Other, more specialized brands such as Lotus and Bentley have also announced EV-exclusive targets.

    While none of those automakers has officially announced changes to its long-term goals, there's been a notable shift in tone and messaging around their goals. Companies are monitoring consumer adoption, global emissions regulations and EV charging infrastructure to determine future plans, officials have said.

    Since first adopting an all-electric deadline, of sorts, in January 2021, GM CEO Mary Barra and other executives have more recently said customer demand will steer its efforts. They maintain that the 2035 goal remains its guiding plan. Cadillac now says it will offer a full lineup of EVs, but not necessarily end production of all gas-powered models by 2030.

    "We have the best of both worlds right now," Cadillac Vice President John Roth said last month during an interview. "We'll see where it heads here in the future, but we are still committed to offering a full EV portfolio by the end of the decade."

    Ford, for its part, has never stated plans to exclusively offer EVs globally, but it did set targets to be all-electric in Europe by 2030, for 50% of its sales in North America to be electric by that same year and to achieve an 8% EV profit margin by 2026. It has since backed off many targets and is cranking out hybrids — specifically trucks — along with EVs and plug-in hybrid electric vehicles for the U.S.

    "We've always had a freedom-of-choice kind of approach," Gjaja said. "Some of that was to protect ourselves against going too far in one direction, because the market right now, as we've seen, is very uncertain."

    CEO Oliver Blume during Porsche's annual media event Tuesday said the German sports carmaker is "in a flexible position" regarding its vehicle manufacturing. He said the company is monitoring EV adoption and regulations but still has a goal of EVs making up 80% of its global sales by 2030.

    "We have to keep tabs on it ... although the ramp-up is slower than planned last year, we are always in a position to respond flexibly," he said, adding the company will "have to see in 2026 and 2027" regarding its plans to significantly reduce spending on gas-powered vehicles.

    The widespread shift in sentiment brings more automakers closer to the ethos of Toyota. Led by Chairman and former CEO Akio Toyoda, the world's top-selling automaker has argued for years that a diversified lineup was the right strategy to meet all customer needs and reach its goal of being carbon-neutral by 2050.

    The Japanese automaker is now expected to reap the benefits of its strategy, which includes hybrids, plug-in hybrids, EVs and hydrogen fuel cells.

    "Toyota is almost completely absent from the [battery electric vehicle] market yet will gain more U.S. market share than any other car company this year. Let that sink in," Morgan Stanley analyst Adam Jonas wrote in an investor note last week. "EVs may be 'the future' but are struggling in the present. Hybrid sales are growing 5x faster than EVs in the US."

    What happened?
    After significant interest from early EV adopters — bolstered by low interest rates and Tesla's rise — interest rates skyrocketed, raw materials costs surged and the vehicles became much more expensive compared with their traditional counterparts.

    It's also become clear that the automotive industry and the Biden administration, which set its own target for half of new U.S. vehicle sales to be electric by 2030, overestimated the willingness of consumers to adopt a new technology without a reliable and prevalent charging infrastructure.

    The adoption curve of EVs rapidly went through first adopters and some "EV curious" consumers, but has been a tougher sell with mainstream buyers. <I told them all that this would happen. But they still stole your money to please their friends>

    "The expectations for EV growth in the U.S. market have shifted from 'rosy to reality' as sales increase, but customer acceptance of EVs isn't keeping pace," Cox Automotive said in its 2024 forecast report.
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire

  27. #563
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    EV euphoria is dead. Automakers are scaling back or delaying their electric vehicle plans.

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news...rs/ar-BB1jOCcg
    Thread: EV sales plummet, but no worry, new rules soon to be enacted will ban gas cars
    “It is not true that all creeds and cultures are equally assimilable in a First World nation born of England, Christianity, and Western civilization. Race, faith, ethnicity and history leave genetic fingerprints no ‘proposition nation’ can erase." -- Pat Buchanan

  28. #564
    So, the Chinese CEO said it first, huh?

    When was the last time you heard such tough inspirational talk from the dykes, fairies, weaklings and soulless holding companies that run America's "Big Three"?


    Chinese Auto Executive: ‘Bloodbath’ Coming for American Auto Industry

    https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2...auto-industry/

    JOHN BINDER 18 Mar 2024

    He Xiaopeng, the CEO of XPeng Motors, predicts a “bloodbath” against America’s auto industry with the help of cheap China-made electric vehicles (EVs).

    Over the weekend, former President Donald Trump was campaigning in Andalia, Ohio, when he warned that without fierce new United States tariffs on China-made EVs, the American auto industry will face “a bloodbath for the country” with jobs lost and industry offshored.

    “We’re going to put a 100 percent tariff on every single car that comes across the line and you’re not going to be able to sell those cars if I get elected,” Trump said. “Now if I don’t get elected, it’s going to be a bloodbath for the whole, that’s going to be the least of it, it’s going to be a bloodbath for the country, that’s going to be the least of it.”

    Trump’s remark mimicked comments made by Xiaopeng in a letter to XPeng employees obtained by CNBC last month. Xiaopeng suggested that “a bloodbath” is coming for the American auto industry this year.

    China seeks to deliver a “brutal knockout round” against its Western competitors, including the U.S., in the global EV market, Xiaopeng said.

    CNBC reported:

    “This year also marks the beginning of a fierce competition that may end in a ‘bloodbath’ (or as I prefer to call it, the brutal ‘knockout round’) among Chinese auto makers,” Xiaopeng wrote in the employee memo. [Emphasis added]

    “XPeng has engaged in this cutthroat competition right from the outset, thus accumulating considerable experience. Our guts, grit and perseverance, I firmly believe, will lead us to victory.”
    “It is not true that all creeds and cultures are equally assimilable in a First World nation born of England, Christianity, and Western civilization. Race, faith, ethnicity and history leave genetic fingerprints no ‘proposition nation’ can erase." -- Pat Buchanan

  29. #565

    Insanity

    Incentive programs could allow state residents to score a new EV for as low as $5,500

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/auto...98b27f58f&ei=9

    $7500 from the Feds (your tax money)
    $7500 from Colorado (State tax money)
    $6000 from Colorado if you turn in an old vehicle (State tax money)
    $1300 from Xcel energy for a home charger (your utility rates)
    $5500 from Xcel for a vehicle credit (your utility rate - although this one can't be combined with other state money, you'll still get the Fed money)

    Those who qualify for all three incentives would be able to purchase a 2024 Chevy Bolt EV that costs $26,500 for just $5,500. A Chevy Bolt EUV model that starts at $27,800 can be had for $6,800. A Tesla Model 3 basic rear-wheel drive version with a manufacturer's suggested retail price of $35,000 would be knocked down to $14,000. A base-model Tesla Y with an MSRP of $44,000 would cost $23,000.

    And then they'll tell you that EV adoption is UP!! People love them!! Look at how fast people are buying them!!!

    NEVER will they consider where that money is coming from and the harm that they are doing to the economy and the environment!
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire

  30. #566
    “It is not true that all creeds and cultures are equally assimilable in a First World nation born of England, Christianity, and Western civilization. Race, faith, ethnicity and history leave genetic fingerprints no ‘proposition nation’ can erase." -- Pat Buchanan

  31. #567
    With the EPA's new rules that make it so about 2/3rds of vehicles sold by 2032 have to be electric and economic realities, you can expect some pretty radical repercussions.

    The price of ICE vehicles is going to go up - WAY up! Why? Because automakers will have to offset their losses on EV's with higher gains on the vehicles that people actually want. This is already happening, but it's going to get worse. Everyone buying a new ICE vehicle is also helping to subsidize the cost of an EV for the elite classes.

    If you have a good vehicle now, make sure to keep it operational for as long as possible! Just know that at some point, when their current policies are backfiring, they'll increase the pressure again. Will they ban gas vehicles on certain roadways? Will they shut down gas stations so you can't refuel them? Nothing is off the table for the cult!
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire

  32. #568
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    With the EPA's new rules that make it so about 2/3rds of vehicles sold by 2032 have to be electric and economic realities, you can expect some pretty radical repercussions.

    The price of ICE vehicles is going to go up - WAY up! Why? Because automakers will have to offset their losses on EV's with higher gains on the vehicles that people actually want. This is already happening, but it's going to get worse. Everyone buying a new ICE vehicle is also helping to subsidize the cost of an EV for the elite classes.

    If you have a good vehicle now, make sure to keep it operational for as long as possible! Just know that at some point, when their current policies are backfiring, they'll increase the pressure again. Will they ban gas vehicles on certain roadways? Will they shut down gas stations so you can't refuel them? Nothing is off the table for the cult!
    Yes, yes and yes.
    “It is not true that all creeds and cultures are equally assimilable in a First World nation born of England, Christianity, and Western civilization. Race, faith, ethnicity and history leave genetic fingerprints no ‘proposition nation’ can erase." -- Pat Buchanan



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  34. #569
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    With the EPA's new rules that make it so about 2/3rds of vehicles sold by 2032 have to be electric and economic realities, you can expect some pretty radical repercussions.

    The price of ICE vehicles is going to go up - WAY up! Why? Because automakers will have to offset their losses on EV's with higher gains on the vehicles that people actually want. This is already happening, but it's going to get worse. Everyone buying a new ICE vehicle is also helping to subsidize the cost of an EV for the elite classes.
    Does that include Tesla?

  35. #570
    Quote Originally Posted by GomerPile View Post
    Does that include Tesla?
    Not sure what you're asking here... Tesla doesn't sell ICE vehicles, so they don't need to offset their losses there. Where Tesla DOES offset its losses is through Regulatory Energy Credits and LCFCS, and the like. So where the other manufacturers fall short of the central planning targets, they are forced to buy credits from Tesla. So, yes, even Tesla purchases raise the price of ICE vehicles from other OEM's.


    Are you still trying to pretend that there is anything close to resembling a free market in EV's??? Or are you still burying your head that the vehicle you bought was paid for by other people who have no interest in paying for your toys?
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire

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