EVs can't work, and are just stepping stones to banning all personal transportation

[GlennwaldSnowdenAssanged]

So, a couple things here... First, Massie powered his home with solar panels and a reclaimed Tesla battery that weren't eligible for any credits.

Secondly, you are again deflecting and saying that because someone else does it, we all should do it.

Thirdly, you are not just taking advantage of tax credits to do something you would have done otherwise - you are actively pursuing new ways to suck at the teat of the taxpayer at the expense of the less fortunate. If it weren't for the subsidies, you already admitted you wouldn't be doing this.

That is not true. I have purchased many brand new automobiles. Probably over 20. I would purchase a new Tesla with or without the credit. The first one was over 50k and did not qualify for $4200 in CT credits. We fully expected the $4200 and were informed when at the dealership that it didn't qualify. We bought it anyway.

Still the point is if Thomas Massie was putting new Solar on or purchasing a new Tesla would he use the available tax credits?

Solar panels. I would put solar on my home with or without the credit. The only difference is that I would have done a DIY self install. So my net expense would have been the same. So I guess you could say that I was not the beneficiary of the Solar system installation but the workers installing Solar were the recipients.

I don't tell you how to file your taxes or spend your money. Pay more in taxes if that is what you want. Do not take tax credits. If that strokes your ego then be satisfied with that.

But do you think, the most Libertarian Congressman would utilize a Federal Income Tax credit of $7500 if he purchased a brand new Tesla? Do you think Ron Paul would use the Federal Income tax credit if he purchased a new Tesla? I would bet money that Ron Paul would use the tax credit.

You are the hypocrite. Either stop paying all taxes or stop taking any money home and give it all to the government. This fallacy that the poor man's income tax is paying for my Tesla is totally wrong. The poor man pays no income tax and gets an earned income tax credit. As mentioned when I had kids in college and only one income we paid nearly no income tax and we were a family of 4 making over $100,000 gross which included rental income.

Do you contribute to a 401k or an IRA and take the deduction? Stop taking that deduction. The poor man cannot afford to contribute....

Dude just agree to disagree and don't put a label on me.

[GlennwaldSnowdenAssanged]

I am white privilege because I purchased a home on some acreage years ago and got a 3% or less interest rate. My beautiful home with taxes and insurance cost about the same as a poor working stiff has to pay for a 2 bedroom apartment. The poor people are paying my mortgage. They have inflated credit card interest rates because I have cheap interest on my home. I pay no interest on my charge cards because I pay them off. I have credit cards that offer zero interest for a year.
Hmm Zero percent for a year promo offer to a person that pays off their credit card each month. That is terrible because the poor working stiff that cannot afford his apartment, or food, or ... has to pay close to 30% on his credit cards while I get a zero percent promo rate. And guess what? I probably have more than one zero percent promo rates and if I opened an account that offered zero percent for a year they would probably offer me a $30,000 credit limit. So go figure. It is the guy that doesn't need the credit that get offered the credit. It is the guy that already has the beautiful woman that has beautiful women hitting on him.

If I was purchasing something tomorrow for $30,000 and had a year with zero interest promo offer, and had the cash to pay for the purchase, I will use zero interest for a year. That is just good business.

I have been more than full circle. Been poor, been pretty well off with no help from anyone, ran several business's, been bankrupt and broke with terrible credit, am not hurting for anything and have a great credit score.

No help from anyone except wife. When down and out, climb out and prosper, When prosperous, don't waste money and conserve.

Nearly 27 year old son has over $375,000 net worth, 2 paid off vehicles, a two family home where he occupies 2nd and 3rd floor with roommates, first floor pays the mortgage. He did it all on his own. No money from me or my wife. Graduated with 2 degrees and a Masters. Saves almost all his income. He is on year 4 of a 10 year plan to be financially independent. Great physical shape. Ran 10k race last week and won. Running marathon next week in MA. Here are the results. Beat 2nd place by over a minute:https://www.plattsys.com/m1shell.php?eventid=2163

[osan]

Subsidies exist for nearly all industries, and not taking advantage of them would be stupid.

If someone is throwing millions at me, I will not step out of the way.

If Tesla can make a profit building EV's, surely the legacy automakers can as well.

Au contraire, mon ami. When I did my MBA we did endless case studies on precisely this issue. The fact is that what one company is able to accomplish, others cannot. It tends to be a subtle and often complicated interplay of factors. The bottom line is that the big automakers may well be unable to pull off a Tesla.

I would add that just because Tesla is doing well now, as the scam that is the EV begins to unravel, Tesla may find itself heading for ultimate doom.

You can throw $#@! at Tesla all you want.

Tesla is almost certainly a scam. Musk is a smart guy and his future lies with SpaceX, not Tesla. But his strategy may have been to milk the market with bull$#@! automobiles in order to finance his real endeavor. It would surprise me not at all to fund this to be the case.

If you carefully look into legacy automakers they have done horrible things in order to boost their share price (IP theft, safety issues, pollution, offshoring, etc).

Big deal. Look carefully into any manufacturer as you find exactly the same things. We live in a competitive world and no amount of phony baloney whinging by the left about eliminating "senseless competition". We are a predatory species. Competition is in our DNA. Those who deny this universally prove to be leaf-eaters, to which I say "GOOD!", less competition for the meat-eaters.

There are no more free markets...sorry I don't make the rules.

Well sure there are. Flea markets are good examples. That the main economy is hobbled by "government" jerkoffs, well there we agree. They have torpedoed prosperity and for what? All because Theye want it all for themselves.

[GlennwaldSnowdenAssanged]

Maybe one day they will just outlaw gasoline or make it extremely hard to acquire. At that point people would be very happy with the range of an EV.

[acptulsa]

Maybe one day they will just outlaw gasoline or make it extremely hard to acquire. At that point people would be very happy with the range of an EV.

Now there's something libertarians can get behind. Not exactly what the speechwriters call an applause line, dude.

[Occam's Banana]

Maybe one day they will just outlaw gasoline or make it extremely hard to acquire

That is exactly what they explicitly intend to do,

Believe them when they tell you:

2030-2049: "Fossil fuels complete[ly] phased out":

THREAD: Absolute Zero: "All remaining airports close" ... "All shipping declines to zero"

At that point people would be very happy with the range of an EV.

If they are able to get to that point, what makes you think they'd be willing to allow "most people" to have or use EVs?

[GlennwaldSnowdenAssanged]

Mad Max in the last EV.

[acptulsa]

Mad Max in the last EV.

Only if one of the first outlives the rest.



One command sent over the net and everything Musk built will refuse to operate.

[GlennwaldSnowdenAssanged]

Seems like a horse would be even more reliable. Maybe a bicycle with solid rubber tires. I didn't live in the old days but it seemed like people traveled on horse and the horse survived. But then again all the vegetation is gone. Maybe they can live on Japanese knotweed, there is plenty of that.

[GlennwaldSnowdenAssanged]

I would add that just because Tesla is doing well now, as the scam that is the EV begins to unravel, Tesla may find itself heading for ultimate doom.

Any industry could face ultimate doom. Growing up GM was the stock all others were measured by.

I think in the foreseeable future Tesla is not going anywhere. EV's are not for everyone and the Grid cannot support EV's for everyone. My wife just purchased a new Tesla and guess what, it won't be ready for several weeks. This is where Tesla shines. My guess is they have more AI, robots, and automation than any manufacturer. Even their sales is mostly done via app. The entire process requires little human interaction. If they are building cars to meet demand and not overproducing they will never have cars they cannot sell. Tesla will taylor production to meet demand. In my opinion as long as there is self transportation the EV is not going anywhere and Tesla is the best EV out there and is competitive with comparable non EV vehicles with or without tax subsidies/incentives/credits.

The problem is not the EV it is the Government. Tesla probably has a brighter future than ICE only or manufacturers that are trying to produce both. I think Tesla has lean manufacturing that other companies will never achieve. Look at it this way. For a competitor to begin to compete the first thing they need to do is get rid of every dealer and sell direct to the public. But maybe the problem with that model is that all ICE vehicles need service departments to handle the warranty work and repairs and maintenance whereas Tesla simply sends a WIFI software update.

In my opinion Tesla is way ahead of the competittion and it doesn't matter if they lose China or don't sell to every American. They are sustainable at any foreseeable level of production volume. They don't need to expand and grow to be profitable and they don't need subsidies either. People will buy Tesla because it is a good car and they can charge it at home. That same person will have a ICE car for long trips or just rent for trips or figure it out. Everybody doesn't need to travel 10 hours without stopping.

[CaptUSA]

We may not agree that seeking ways to benefit from your fellow man without their consent is morally justified, but we can agree on this:

The problem is not the EV it is the Government.

Not so sure about this:

In my opinion as long as there is self transportation the EV is not going anywhere and Tesla is the best EV out there and is competitive with comparable non EV vehicles with or without tax subsidies/incentives/credits.

I'd sure like to see that tried... The problem is that government won't allow that because those subsidies are popular with corporations and wealthier EV purchasers. Even without the purchase credits, Tesla gets renewable energy credits and Low Carbon Fuel Credits from manufacturers of combustion vehicles, they get subsidies for the charging infrastructure, they get Fed-printed money from the institutional investors, the battery manufacturers are subsidized, the material mining is subsidized, and their impact to the roads is subsidized by combustion vehicles. Earlier in this thread, you'll find the Texas Policy Institute's study that showed each vehicle is subsidized to the tune of $52,000 before you even get to the Fed money.

They're cool vehicles, to be sure, but they are pretty cost-prohibitive for all but the most elite without subsidies.

[CaptUSA]

Ford Cuts Battery Orders as EV Losses Top $100,000 Per Car
Automaker is shifting its strategy for EVs as demand wanes
Suppliers in South Korea, China grapple with unsold inventory

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...00-000-per-car

Ford's already forecast it will lose up to $5.5 billion from EVs alone this year. Take a guess where they make up the difference.

[GlennwaldSnowdenAssanged]

We may not agree that seeking ways to benefit from your fellow man without their consent is morally justified, but we can agree on this:

Not so sure about this:

I'd sure like to see that tried... The problem is that government won't allow that because those subsidies are popular with corporations and wealthier EV purchasers. Even without the purchase credits, Tesla gets renewable energy credits and Low Carbon Fuel Credits from manufacturers of combustion vehicles, they get subsidies for the charging infrastructure, they get Fed-printed money from the institutional investors, the battery manufacturers are subsidized, the material mining is subsidized, and their impact to the roads is subsidized by combustion vehicles. Earlier in this thread, you'll find the Texas Policy Institute's study that showed each vehicle is subsidized to the tune of $52,000 before you even get to the Fed money.

They're cool vehicles, to be sure, but they are pretty cost-prohibitive for all but the most elite without subsidies.

I was thinking of putting in some replacement windows. Is it okay with you to use Federal income tax credit for energy efficient windows?

[osan]

Any industry could face ultimate doom.

It would seem either you missed my point, or have consciously skirted it.

I think in the foreseeable future Tesla is not going anywhere...

As in not succeeding or not failing? I'd rather not assume your meaning.

EV's are not for everyone and the Grid cannot support EV's for everyone. My wife just purchased a new Tesla and guess what, it won't be ready for several weeks. This is where Tesla shines. My guess is they have more AI, robots, and automation than any manufacturer. Even their sales is mostly done via app. The entire process requires little human interaction. If they are building cars to meet demand and not overproducing they will never have cars they cannot sell.

Over production is, all else equal, a microeconomic decision based on that sweet spot on the efficiency curve. One can "over produce" and still make optimal profit and serve the market with equal efficiency. It all really turns on how one views these things. Use the right standard and saving the lives of sick children can be convincingly peddled as some brand of ultimate evil.

Tesla will taylor production to meet demand.

Which may or may not prove economically wise, again depending on the yardstick. Microeconomic choices are often counterintuitive, most particularly to the uninitiated. Just because a company does something that seems wrong, it does not follow that it is. The same goes for the company that intuitively appears to be doing right. Economics is a bit of a weird animal in certain places, and very straightforward in others.

In my opinion as long as there is self transportation the EV is not going anywhere and Tesla is the best EV out there and is competitive with comparable non EV vehicles with or without tax subsidies/incentives/credits.

Self-transportation has little to nothing to do with the broader question. Our energy technologies are grossly lacking our capacity to engineer a good electric motor, which incidentally will not run a whit without electrical input. Batteries as they currently exist are not very favorably impressive. All the whiners, moaners, and squealers about "clean energy", pitching foot-stamping-fits about "clean energy" seem to turn blind eyes to the wild filth currently needed to produce it. Have you not seen the pathetic images of small braak African children working in lithium mines? Then there's the fact that lithium is an alkaline metal, which means highly reactive. I take it you've seen them burn? There's a reason they are not allowed in the cargo holds of commercial airliners. One of those goes up and it may burn a hole right through the fuselage, not to mention the very slight but nonetheless present possibility of setting the aluminum to burning. Ever seen an aluminum fire? It's wildly hot and very dangerous.

The problem is not the EV it is the Government.

The problem is BOTH. EV without energy is just a very costly boat anchor. Without good batteries, there's no energy. Without the possibility of a five minute charge, nobody with an operating brain who seeks a vehicle with greater than a 30-foot range is going to buy one, and the safety concerns regarding burning lithium just inches under one's holy-sphincter are quite valid.

And of course we agree strongly that "government" is in fact a major problem here, as it is with everything upon which it places its Midas^-1 touch.

Tesla probably has a brighter future than ICE only or manufacturers that are trying to produce both.

Only time will tell, but I would point out that if they have taken "taxpayer" money, we should all be getting one of those things free of charge because I sure as hell didn't pay for it with consent.

I think Tesla has lean manufacturing that other companies will never achieve. Look at it this way. For a competitor to begin to compete the first thing they need to do is get rid of every dealer and sell direct to the public. But maybe the problem with that model is that all ICE vehicles need service departments to handle the warranty work and repairs and maintenance whereas Tesla simply sends a WIFI software update.

Has someone paid you to suck Tesla's dick? Just kidding, of course, but come now. Is a software update going to repair this:



Let us keep things real just for a moment. Tesla ain't magic.

[Tesla is] sustainable at any foreseeable level of production volume.

Sweet Jesus, tell me you didn't just use the s-word. Lie if you must.

They don't need to expand and grow to be profitable and they don't need subsidies either.

OK, now you're just $#@!ing with me, right? If not, you either stand in dire need of an economics class, of you slept through the one you took.

I would also point out that "just in time" inventory models are great... until they aren't. Their vulnerabilities to supply chain interruptions are legendary in the bad sense.

Tesla is perched atop an enormously precarious circumstance, made worse with JIT manufacturing. So long as things remain nominally stable in their environment, they will be MAYBE fine. It would take no great hiccup to put them right in the cross-hairs, though, don't fool yourself.

People will buy Tesla because it is a good car and they can charge it at home.

This is a bit naive and rather simplistic. I've spoken with several such buyers and they seem to labor under the wildly false impression that they are doing something good to "save the planet". They are not. If anything, they are doing the precise opposite, but that's just my opinion on the question.

That same person will have a ICE car for long trips or just rent for trips or figure it out. Everybody doesn't need to travel 10 hours without stopping.

You seem to be ignoring a majority of the population, or perhaps I'm just not understanding you.

[Madison320]

I just bought a battery powered lawn mower and so far I really like it. I still think battery tech and the electrical grid have a long way to go for electric cars though.

[CaptUSA]

I just bought a battery powered lawn mower and so far I really like it. I still think battery tech and the electrical grid have a long way to go for electric cars though.

I use a battery powered trimmer every week. It's great. Charges at 120v. Minimum impact to the grid. The batteries don't last very long, but you get replacements for relatively cheap. Doesn't use up my 2-cycle mix. The right tool for the right job. And no one subsidized it.

[PAF]

I use a battery powered trimmer every week. It's great. Charges at 120v. Minimum impact to the grid. The batteries don't last very long, but you get replacements for relatively cheap. Doesn't use up my 2-cycle mix. The right tool for the right job. And no one subsidized it.

Same experience that I have, with my wall clock from China

[Madison320]

I use a battery powered trimmer every week. It's great. Charges at 120v. Minimum impact to the grid. The batteries don't last very long, but you get replacements for relatively cheap. Doesn't use up my 2-cycle mix. The right tool for the right job. And no one subsidized it.

I was going to get a gas mower but it was like going to a music store and looking for a vinyl record. I figured electrics must be ok since that's all they were selling. At least small walk behinds. Mine has a side discharge and it's a push mower so it doesn't stress out the battery. It's so light I can't see why anyone would even need a self propelled. As long as it lasts for a couple years I'll be happy. No more oil or gas to worry about, and no more getting pissed off when it doesn't start.

[PAF]

I was going to get a gas mower but it was like going to a music store and looking for a vinyl record. I figured electrics must be ok since that's all they were selling. At least small walk behinds. Mine has a side discharge and it's a push mower so it doesn't stress out the battery. It's so light I can't see why anyone would even need a self propelled. As long as it lasts for a couple years I'll be happy. No more oil or gas to worry about, and no more getting pissed off when it doesn't start.

Really. I just bought a brand new gas-powered mower: NEVER Change Lawn Mower Oil Again. Yes, never.

I guess electrics would be ok if all you want to do is run over your artificial turf for exercise. Cutting dense, tall grass [and heavy brush], especially after all of the rain, would take forever, I would imagine. Plus, gas powered will literally last years.

[Madison320]

Really. I just bought a brand new gas-powered mower: NEVER Change Lawn Mower Oil Again. Yes, never.

I guess electrics would be ok if all you want to do is run over your artificial turf for exercise. Cutting dense, tall grass [and heavy brush], especially after all of the rain, would take forever, I would imagine. Plus, gas powered will literally last years.

Yeah, the electric has its limits. You need a small yard. If you get over a third of an acre you're starting to get into gas territory. But for a small yard it's perfect.

[PAF]

Yeah, the electric has its limits. You need a small yard. If you get over a third of an acre you're starting to get into gas territory. But for a small yard it's perfect.

I do like the electric weed whacker I just got. No more 2-cycle oil! ;-)

[acptulsa]

[luctor-et-emergo]

Microwave or microwave oven? Also, in case it's not the full oven, which direction is the cavity pointing too and is there much reflective material around.

So many questions... Having knowledge on how EM works and also the standards products have to follow in order to be sold to consumers, fun meme, but no champagne.

[Brian4Liberty]

I just bought a battery powered lawn mower and so far I really like it. I still think battery tech and the electrical grid have a long way to go for electric cars though.

I use a battery powered trimmer every week. It's great. Charges at 120v. Minimum impact to the grid. The batteries don't last very long, but you get replacements for relatively cheap. Doesn't use up my 2-cycle mix. The right tool for the right job. And no one subsidized it.

I have a good battery powered blower. Dual batteries. It pretty much runs out of juice before I am done, every time.

[CaptUSA]

I have a good battery powered blower. Dual batteries. It pretty much runs out of juice before I am done, every time.

What's her name?






(sorry, couldn't resist)

[Brian4Liberty]

What's her name?






(sorry, couldn't resist)

Makita.

[69360]

I have a battery powered weed Wacker and leaf blower. They work good and I like them. But my riding mower is still gas. Battery powered riders are like $5000 and that just isn't a good value at all.

[GlennwaldSnowdenAssanged]

If electricity is so bad, why do we use so much of it?
Why not have a bunch of ICE engines to do all your work?
Grind coffee beans, open your garage door?
Why are big huge machines run on electric motors and not ICE engines?

[CaptUSA]

If electricity is so bad, why do we use so much of it?
Why not have a bunch of ICE engines to do all your work?
Grind coffee beans, open your garage door?
Why are big huge machines run on electric motors and not ICE engines?

Who said electricity was bad??!

Right tool for the right job.

[acptulsa]

If electricity is so bad, why do we use so much of it?
Why not have a bunch of ICE engines to do all your work?
Grind coffee beans, open your garage door?
Why are big huge machines run on electric motors and not ICE engines?

You need batteries to open your garage door? You can't just run a wire?

Why the $#@! do you have a portable garage?