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Thread: Michigan bill to criminalize gender-change procedures for minors as child abuse

  1. #1

    Michigan bill to criminalize gender-change procedures for minors as child abuse

    "Our nation's growing ideological self-segregation is proceeding nicely." -- Michael Malice
    Michigan Republicans Introduce Bill to Label Gender Change Procedures for Minors as First-Degree Child Abuse, Punishable By Life in Prison
    https://timcast.com/news/michigan-re...ife-in-prison/
    Cassandra Fairbanks (17 October 2022)

    If passed, House Bill 6454 would allow parents, guardians, and licensed medical professionals to all be charged with abuse if “the person knowingly or intentionally consents to, obtains, or assists with a gender transition procedure for a child.”

    In Michigan, child abuse in the first degree is a felony punishable by imprisonment for life or any term of years.

    The bill was introduced on October 11 by GOP Reps. Beau LaFave, Ryan Berman, Steve Carra, Luke Meerman, and Steve Marino.

    “The idea that we would be making potentially life-altering changes to 11-, 12-, 13-, 14-, 15-year-old kids when it is illegal for them to have sex is insane,” LaFave told The Hill after the bill was introduced. “They’re not ‘responsible enough’ to smoke a cigarette until they’re 21.”

    According to report, “LaFave said he’s optimistic most Republicans in the state legislature will back the measure. He added that he believes most Michigan Democrats are in ideological agreement with him and the bill’s co-sponsors but would risk damaging their political careers if they supported the measure publicly.”

    Republicans currently hold a small majority in the Michigan state House.

    If passed, Michigan will become the second state in the nation to ban medicinal and surgical gender change treatments for minors.

    Alabama has already banned certain procedures and chemicals from being used on youth, including puberty blockers and hormone therapy. However, the law was blocked by a federal judge in May.

    Federally, Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene has introduced the Protect Children’s Innocence Act, H.R. 8731, which will criminalize genital mutilation and chemical castration of minor children. It currently has 37 Republican co-sponsors.

    The bill states that anyone who “knowingly performs any gender-affirming care on a minor is guilty of a class C felony” carrying a penalty of 10 to 25 years in prison and a maximum fine of $250,000.

    The bill would also prohibit “any plastic surgery that feminizes or masculinizes the facial features,” “any placement of chest implants to create feminine breasts,” or “any placement of fat or artificial implants in the gluteal region,” when they are done “for the purpose of changing the body of such individual to correspond to a sex that differs from their biological sex.”

    The bill explains that the term “gender-affirming care” refers to over a dozen procedures and treatments including castration, orchiectomy, scrotoplasty, vasectomy, hysterectomy, oophorectomy, ovariectomy, metoidioplasty, penectomy, vaginoplasty, vaginectomy, vulvoplasty, thyrochondroplasty, chondrolaryngoplasty, and mastectomy.

    Many of these treatments irreversibly sterilize and/or disfigure the patient.

    “How on earth can this even be happening in America?” Greene said during a press conference in September. “It’s hard to understand, but the fact that the medical industry is making billions of dollars on these genital mutilation surgeries on kids is absolutely horrific. These are the things that nightmares are made of.”
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  3. #2
    A key libertarian “principle” is to keep government out of personal issues. Who wants to be the libertarian purist on this issue?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    Throughout human history, there have been ideals, principles and morals. They have been illustrated, expressed and described in parables, allegories, analogies, fables, etc. throughout the ages, often as moral lessons.

    But here's the rub. They are often very specific and exist in isolation, in a vacuum. "Thou shalt not kill." That is a principle, a moral value and to many, a commandment. But it is incomplete without real world context. The interpretation of that value can vary greatly. The contexts and exceptions alone would fill a legal library.

    Even the most basic principle can lead to other principles built upon that original principle. Eventually, those principles are applied in a real world situation, where they then interact with, and possibly conflict with other principles.

    Thus, there can be endless debate about which principles are in play, which ones are valid (or adhered to), which ones conflict, which ones cancel other ones. The most generic end result of all of this is that many people dislike philosophy.
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
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  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    A key libertarian “principle” is to keep government out of personal issues. Who wants to be the libertarian purist on this issue?
    There will always be good and evil in this world. It is up to each of us, as individuals, to abide by the Golden Rule. Laws, statues and ordinances do little to curb atrocities, those who are intent will find a away regardless. Once laws, statues and ordinances are enacted, it leaves the door wide open to enact other laws, statutes and ordinances which can/will be abused. Good intentions almost always lead to bad consequences.
    ____________

    An Agorist Primer ~ Samuel Edward Konkin III (free PDF download)

    The End of All Evil ~ Jeremy Locke (free PDF download)

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    A key libertarian “principle” is to keep government out of personal issues. Who wants to be the libertarian purist on this issue?
    Children cannot consent to cutting off their genitals. Full stop. Parents and government licensed "medical professionals" cannot choose to make that decision for them. Full stop. You cannot sell your child into slavery, harvest their organs, nor can you perform genial mutilation in a libertarian society BECAUSE EVERYTHING IS DONE BY CONSENT. What these people are doing is taking advantage of ignorance for personal gain i.e. FRAUD and fraud is illegal in a free country. Full disclosure: I also oppose circumcision before the age of consent and that's 18 in America.
    Last edited by Gumba of Liberty; 10-17-2022 at 07:21 PM.
    "If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be." - Thomas Jefferson

    "It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds" - Sam Adams

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    A key libertarian “principle” is to keep government out of personal issues. Who wants to be the libertarian purist on this issue?
    I'm a non-aggression principle purist on this issue. Does that count?

    Doctors making money by mutilating children isn't all that "personal" an issue.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    We believe our lying eyes...

  7. #6
    Isn't Michigan run by Democrats? This is probably DOA. I agree with it, I don't think it should be allowed until 18. Once you are an adult, what you do is not my business.

  8. #7
    ..
    Last edited by Gumba of Liberty; 10-17-2022 at 07:20 PM.
    "If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be." - Thomas Jefferson

    "It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds" - Sam Adams

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by 69360 View Post
    Isn't Michigan run by Democrats? This is probably DOA. I agree with it, I don't think it should be allowed until 18. Once you are an adult, what you do is not my business.
    Arbitrary age dictated by government?

    How about, if one personally has the money and decides to do so, sign a bilateral contract between person and service provider which eliminates all liability, costs and damages to any/all outside body.
    ____________

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    The End of All Evil ~ Jeremy Locke (free PDF download)



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Banana View Post
    If passed, House Bill 6454 would allow parents, guardians, and licensed medical professionals to all be charged with abuse if “the person knowingly or intentionally consents to, obtains, or assists with a gender transition procedure for a child.”
    ...
    The bill explains that the term “gender-affirming care” refers to over a dozen procedures and treatments including castration, orchiectomy, scrotoplasty, vasectomy, hysterectomy, oophorectomy, ovariectomy, metoidioplasty, penectomy, vaginoplasty, vaginectomy, vulvoplasty, thyrochondroplasty, chondrolaryngoplasty, and mastectomy.
    I looked through the referenced bill and couldn't find references for castration or any of the tomies or plasties ... or even the term "gender-affirming care". Does the reference point to the entire bill or just an extract.

    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Banana View Post
    “How on earth can this even be happening in America?” Greene said during a press conference in September. “It’s hard to understand, but the fact that the medical industry is making billions of dollars on these genital mutilation surgeries on kids is absolutely horrific. These are the things that nightmares are made of.”
    The only way the medical industry is making billions of dollars each year on genital mutilation surgeries on kids is if they include circumcision (roughly 55 percent of the 2 million males born each year in the United States are circumcised, a decline from a high of 79 percent in the 1970s and '80s). But something tells me that no one sponsoring the bill intended for adults to be punished for circumcision genital mutilation upon children.

    From the bill:
    22 (i) Alter or remove physical or anatomical characteristics or
    23 features that are typical of an individual's biological sex.
    I'm pretty sure that a foreskin is a physical or anatomical characteristic that is typical of biological males (at least as they pop out the chute)
    Last edited by Voluntarist; 10-17-2022 at 07:23 PM.
    You have the right to remain silent. Anything you post to the internet can and will be used to humiliate you.

  12. #10
    ..
    "If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be." - Thomas Jefferson

    "It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds" - Sam Adams

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    Arbitrary age dictated by government?

    How about, if one personally has the money and decides to do so, sign a bilateral contract between person and service provider which eliminates all liability, costs and damages to any/all outside body.
    I don't really want a country that Devoid of Ethics and Morals..

    Pretty Phucking Sick.

    But you are OK with Mutilate them for Money.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    I don't really want a country that Devoid of Ethics and Morals..

    Pretty Phucking Sick.

    But you are OK with Mutilate them for Money.
    I will defend your right to get a tattoo if you want, or a nipple ring, if you assume 100% responsibility for your own body and on your own dime.
    ____________

    An Agorist Primer ~ Samuel Edward Konkin III (free PDF download)

    The End of All Evil ~ Jeremy Locke (free PDF download)

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Voluntarist View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Banana View Post
    If passed, House Bill 6454 would allow parents, guardians, and licensed medical professionals to all be charged with abuse if “the person knowingly or intentionally consents to, obtains, or assists with a gender transition procedure for a child.”
    ...
    The bill explains that the term “gender-affirming care” refers to over a dozen procedures and treatments including castration, orchiectomy, scrotoplasty, vasectomy, hysterectomy, oophorectomy, ovariectomy, metoidioplasty, penectomy, vaginoplasty, vaginectomy, vulvoplasty, thyrochondroplasty, chondrolaryngoplasty, and mastectomy.
    I looked through the referenced bill and couldn't find references for castration or any of the tomies or plasties ... or even the term "gender-affirming care". Does the reference point to the entire bill or just an extract.
    The referenced bill is (federal) H.R. 8731, not (Michigan) House Bill 6454:

    Federally, Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene has introduced the Protect Children’s Innocence Act, H.R. 8731, which will criminalize genital mutilation and chemical castration of minor children. It currently has 37 Republican co-sponsors.

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    I will defend your right to get a tattoo if you want, or a nipple ring, if you assume 100% responsibility for your own body and on your own dime.
    My Tattoos are all illegal.

    mutilating CHILDREN is another Question.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    Arbitrary age dictated by government?

    How about, if one personally has the money and decides to do so, sign a bilateral contract between person and service provider which eliminates all liability, costs and damages to any/all outside body.
    No, when it comes to child abuse I am fine with an arbitrary age dictated by government.

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    My Tattoos are all illegal.

    mutilating CHILDREN is another Question.
    Quote Originally Posted by 69360 View Post
    No, when it comes to child abuse I am fine with an arbitrary age dictated by government.
    I don't want this to go off topic, but I will clarify:

    If/when the child is under my care, under my roof, on my dime, that is one thing. But once the child is capable of earning enough money on their own and insists on moving out of my house, the responsibility would fall upon him/her. Of course I would try to talk to him/her and express my views, but outside of that, the decision would be theirs only, whether 16, 17 or 21. The choices one makes can/will affect the rest of their life, they certainly would have learned that while living under my roof, and that is something they would need to heavily consider in their decision making.

    Arbitrary age set by government. The kids today are coddled, education is beyond substandard, they are not allowed to work at an early age, and the government would sooner raise the age of adult beyond 16, 18 or 21 to 25. My grandparents were married and owned a farm in their early teens. They worked hard and were responsible. They didn't have free time on their hands to sit in front of the TV for 15 hours playing games or think about crap like cancel culture and trans/sex change.
    ____________

    An Agorist Primer ~ Samuel Edward Konkin III (free PDF download)

    The End of All Evil ~ Jeremy Locke (free PDF download)



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  20. #17
    If Liberals/Democrats do this this will hurt them on mid terms.

    Only few would support them on this.

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by AngryCanadian View Post
    If Liberals/Democrats do this this will hurt them on mid terms.

    Only few would support them on this.
    I know lots of dems who only vote straight ticket, just like @pcosmar said he was going to do. Because they are too stoopid/lazy to look at the Records to see what they are actually consenting to. That's not my problem, it's theirs.
    ____________

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  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    There will always be good and evil in this world. It is up to each of us, as individuals, to abide by the Golden Rule. Laws, statues and ordinances do little to curb atrocities, those who are intent will find a away regardless. Once laws, statues and ordinances are enacted, it leaves the door wide open to enact other laws, statutes and ordinances which can/will be abused. Good intentions almost always lead to bad consequences.
    It’s not so much about good and evil, it’s more about “saving people from themselves”. Should government be involved in that?

    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    Arbitrary age dictated by government?

    How about, if one personally has the money and decides to do so, sign a bilateral contract between person and service provider which eliminates all liability, costs and damages to any/all outside body.
    Yes, an arbitrary age which changes over time. Hard to call that a principle, except in clown world.

    But this is under the same category as long established age related laws, such as those on bars, smoking, drinking, driving or having sexual relations. Should they all be repealed? Who will save the kids from themselves? Even worse, who will save them from misguided, ignorant, woke parents?
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul

    Proponent of real science.
    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Gumba of Liberty View Post
    Children cannot consent to cutting off their genitals. Full stop. Parents and government licensed "medical professionals" cannot choose to make that decision for them. Full stop. You cannot sell your child into slavery, harvest their organs, nor can you perform genial mutilation in a libertarian society BECAUSE EVERYTHING IS DONE BY CONSENT. What these people are doing is taking advantage of ignorance for personal gain i.e. FRAUD and fraud is illegal in a free country. Full disclosure: I also oppose circumcision before the age of consent and that's 18 in America.
    Very good points. Irreversible plastic surgery can result in regrets. Are children capable of intelligently making an informed decision and consenting? Are their parents?

    What about medical ethics? Can this be considered ethical from a medical perspective? Why doesn’t the AMA or the hospitals or health care organizations have an opinion on this? They certainly have no problem recommending and almost forcing other things, like COVID shots. Hold on, I may have answered my own question. It’s called follow the money, especially when the money can be hidden behind a veneer of politics, wokeism and faux fear.
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul

    Proponent of real science.
    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    It’s not so much about good and evil, it’s more about “saving people from themselves”. Should government be involved in that?



    Yes, an arbitrary age which changes over time. Hard to call that a principle, except in clown world.

    But this is under the same category as long established age related laws, such as those on bars, smoking, drinking, driving or having sexual relations. Should they all be repealed? Who will save the kids from themselves? Even worse, who will save them from misguided, ignorant, woke parents?
    Then my Post #16 does have relevance to this thread. Government creates more problems that it solves, taking personal responsibility away from people. Even concerning contract rights, and then charges revenue to enforce unjust laws/statutes/ordinances. Kids can't have lemonade stands to keep busy and make a profit, or the curious scientist working in their own garage without having homeland security knock at the door. Ever see The Astronaut Farmer and when he let the kids stay home from school?

    When people are left to deal with the ramifications of their own decisions on their own, they seem, I think, to make much better decisions. Revenue from cradle to grave is the goal of .Gov and the corporations which are in bed with them, including prisons and hospitals.

    You nailed it in Post #20 - Follow the Money.
    Last edited by PAF; 10-18-2022 at 07:09 AM.
    ____________

    An Agorist Primer ~ Samuel Edward Konkin III (free PDF download)

    The End of All Evil ~ Jeremy Locke (free PDF download)

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    I don't want this to go off topic, but I will clarify:

    If/when the child is under my care, under my roof, on my dime, that is one thing. But once the child is capable of earning enough money on their own and insists on moving out of my house, the responsibility would fall upon him/her. Of course I would try to talk to him/her and express my views, but outside of that, the decision would be theirs only, whether 16, 17 or 21. The choices one makes can/will affect the rest of their life, they certainly would have learned that while living under my roof, and that is something they would need to heavily consider in their decision making.

    Arbitrary age set by government. The kids today are coddled, education is beyond substandard, they are not allowed to work at an early age, and the government would sooner raise the age of adult beyond 16, 18 or 21 to 25. My grandparents were married and owned a farm in their early teens. They worked hard and were responsible. They didn't have free time on their hands to sit in front of the TV for 15 hours playing games or think about crap like cancel culture and trans/sex change.
    I think 18 is about right in our current world. As life expectancy increases, the coming of age tends to increase too.

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by 69360 View Post
    I think 18 is about right in our current world. As life expectancy increases, the coming of age tends to increase too.
    Enabler much? So, you are fine with increasing the age [to be considered an adult] to work until say, 24, or 34 as life expectancy increases? I guess retiring at an age where one is still able to enjoy is out of the question too, since they will have to work until age 100, if they don't start until mid 20-30's.

    Edit to say, I would MUCH rather have older folks have all the free time that they want, after learning the value of work and responsibility, than the young generation who sit around doing next to nothing and expecting others to coddle and take care of them.
    Last edited by PAF; 10-18-2022 at 09:30 AM.
    ____________

    An Agorist Primer ~ Samuel Edward Konkin III (free PDF download)

    The End of All Evil ~ Jeremy Locke (free PDF download)

  27. #24
    THREAD: Virginia Parents Could Face Felony Charges for Not ‘Affirming’ Child’s Gender Identity
    As much as we may want to keep government out of most personal decisions, the woke left in conjunction with the crony kleptocracy have other plans...
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul

    Proponent of real science.
    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    When people are left to deal with the ramifications of their own decisions on their own, they seem, I think, to make much better decisions. ...
    Unfortunately, they are being actively misled, by other misled people, ignorant people, and people with hidden agendas like politics and money. Now they want to enforce their agenda via law. How can a person make a truly informed decision in a storm of misinformation?
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul

    Proponent of real science.
    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    Unfortunately, they are being actively misled, by other misled people, ignorant people, and people with hidden agendas like politics and money. Now they want to enforce their agenda via law. How can a person make a truly informed decision in a storm of misinformation?
    True. And no matter how much we try to educate, for the most part, they "do not want to hear it".

    But, truth always prevails, even after the fact and it is too late for some/many. The words "I can't believe it happened to me" is the best teacher of life. If they brush aside asking questions, or refuse to consider other points of view, that's on them, not me.

    As to "law", people are conditioned to abide by the top-down approach Fed-down-to-local, when in fact it is the other way around. Once again, only after "I can't believe it happened to me" do some begin to realize that. It is not easy protecting one's own life and liberty, but that is absolutely what is required.

    Rumble and Bitchute, buying from local farmers, using natural remedies, at least some folks are in-the-know.
    ____________

    An Agorist Primer ~ Samuel Edward Konkin III (free PDF download)

    The End of All Evil ~ Jeremy Locke (free PDF download)

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    I will defend your right to get a tattoo if you want, or a nipple ring, if you assume 100% responsibility for your own body and on your own dime.
    So if a 6 year old hands some 50 year old dude some money, they can get a full body tattoo of a unicorn done?
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    So if a 6 year old hands some 50 year old dude some money, they can get a full body tattoo of a unicorn done?
    Post #16. Did you even bother to read it?
    ____________

    An Agorist Primer ~ Samuel Edward Konkin III (free PDF download)

    The End of All Evil ~ Jeremy Locke (free PDF download)

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    Post #16. Did you even bother to read it?
    I thought I read all the posts, but I missed that one. I was more curious about your thoughts than trying to be combative.

    I don't have a huge problem with that.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    I thought I read all the posts, but I missed that one. I was more curious about your thoughts than trying to be combative.

    I don't have a huge problem with that.


    I am curious though, not a huge problem? Care to share?
    ____________

    An Agorist Primer ~ Samuel Edward Konkin III (free PDF download)

    The End of All Evil ~ Jeremy Locke (free PDF download)

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