The U.S. Constitution: Pro-Freedom?

[nobody's_hero]

No, actually, it isn’t.

An agreement to VOLUNTARILY cooperate for our mutual defense is the very farthest thing from a government imaginable. For it to become a government a small group of it’s members would have to be given authority to coerce everyone else into or out of certain otherwise allowable behaviors against their will. Since no such thing is necessary or desirable to provide for mutual defense, no government ever need come into being.

How do you suppose the first governments in the history of mankind ever came into existence? I'm talking about the very first primitive tribal chief with a half dozen ho mo-sapien followers who subjugated their neighbors. Someone had to voluntarily agree to follow him. At least at first. Wait! I know, maybe he had a written Constitution! Damn, that piece of paper. Why didn't others voluntarily agree to come together to defend against this petty tyrant warlord? Maybe they did and accidentally ended up creating tribes themselves. Oops.

If you guys wanna bounce philosophical idealism off each other all day, let's get philosophical.

really RPF: ****sapiens? Ho mo

To be clear, I have no argument against you guys in principle. If the entire world followed this arrangement and understanding, it would be a much better place. The moment one person doesn't, the seed is planted. And that's where the reality that pcosmar describes kinda drops a turd in the think tank.

We probably don't disagree on the basic premise that ultimately it's the duty of the people to decide the best form of government for themselves, if any at all. Any written formal agreement is irrelevant if that foundation doesn't exist. I just think it's silly to be getting mad at a piece of paper, when the people have no desire to uphold it as written, much less resist any form of over-reaching government that, I strongly believe, would ultimately have come into fruition even without the Constitution.

[PAF]

I understand some of the points that you make, so respectfully we will agree to disagree. I can only speak for myself, and maybe offer an alternative for what might work for others as well. I can tell you that Agorism isn't an overnight lesson. It takes thought, practice and a willingness to weight Risk-versus-Reward which eventually becomes a way of life. For me personally it has worked out tremendously well and I will never go back. Everybody's life is different, with different sets of circumstances. One thing is certain - truth, NAP (unless in self-defense) and a desire to make ones own path should always be promoted and never stifled. What other people choose to do, that's on them.

Edited to add: why is communism, fascism, statism, always accepted as the norm, even when they are repugnant to society and viscously fought against, yet any talk of Agorism and Voluntarism is always, always, rejected - even by the so-called freedom lovers?

[PAF]

That won't put Gas in the Tank..

You need a Corporation and Supply Chain.

No man is an Island.

Okay? And?

I put gas in my car every day. Did you think I ride a camel?

[CCTelander]

How do you suppose the first governments in the history of mankind ever came into existence? I'm talking about the very first primitive tribal chief with a half dozen ho mo-sapien followers who subjugated their neighbors. Someone had to voluntarily agree to follow him. At least at first. Wait! I know, maybe he had a written Constitution!

If you guys wanna bounce philosophical idealism off each other all day, let's get philosophical.

really RPF: ****sapiens? Ho mo

My god! When I entered an agreement with my neighbors to keep an eye on each other’s houses and property, and let the owner know if something sketchy is going on, we actually formed a government? $#@! now I’m gonna be paying taxes to my neighborhood watch too?!?

Your obdurate refusal to acknowledge facts doesn’t negate them. Mutual cooperation WITHOUT forming any kind of coercive government is both possible and common in every day life right now.

Government is NOT inevitable, no matter how many times you and others declare it to be.

You may continue to revere and even love your chains. I do not, which is why I continue to work to remove them ... completely.

[Invisible Man]

All societies need laws because humans are a fallen creature.

By this very same understanding, we can know something about the nature of the laws all societies need.

They need laws that are authoritative over them. The people governed by the laws cannot simultaneously have authority over those laws. The laws must be transcendent, objective, timeless, and universal. The law that all societies need is strictly justice itself. No manmade laws can add to or take away from this one, already existing, authoritative law of justice. Our relationship with justice can only be one of discovering its laws, not inventing them, just like with the laws of physics, math, and logic. We may not know what the laws of justice are perfectly (just as our knowledge of physics, math, and logic is imperfect), especially when it comes to gray and questionable situations, but we can do our best and approximate them. And our approach to these laws is different when we see them as laws to be discovered and submitted to, and we disabuse ourselves of the notion that we get to just make them up and legislate them.

The expression, "There ought to be a law..." should be removed from our discourse. Whatever said law may be, it either already exists inasmuch as it is just, or it does not already exist. If it does not already exist, then it is unjust and ought not exist.

[TheTexan]

Government is NOT inevitable, no matter how many times you and other declare it to be.

Maybe a nit but I'd disagree with that statement.

Government, like crime, is inevitable... but that doesn't mean it's necessary, justified, or ethical.

[PAF]

My god! When I entered an agreement with my neighbors to keep an eye on each other’s houses and property, and let the owner know if something sketchy is going on, we actually formed a government? $#@! now I’m gonna be paying taxes to my neighborhood watch too?!?

Your obdurate refusal to acknowledge facts doesn’t negate them. Mutual cooperation WITHOUT forming any kind of coercive government is both possible and common in every day life right now.

Government is NOT inevitable, no matter how many times you and other declare it to be.

You may continue to revere and even love your chains. I do not, which is why I continue to work to remove them ... completely.

That's the underlying problem. People are so brainwashed, so incredibly indoctrinated, the reason why the country is the way that it is is because people scratch, claw, clutch and embrace the slave-owners over them. They can't even fathom, let alone entertain, or at least try to imagine life without them.

[CCTelander]

Maybe a nit but I'd disagree with that statement.

Government, like crime, is inevitable... but that doesn't mean it's necessary, justified, or ethical.

That’s a bit of a fatalistic POV.

We’ll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

[Snowball]

I understand some of the points that you make, so respectfully we will agree to disagree. I can only speak for myself, and maybe offer an alternative for what might work for others as well. I can tell you that Agorism isn't an overnight lesson. It takes thought, practice and a willingness to weight Risk-versus-Reward which eventually becomes a way of life. For me personally it has worked out tremendously well and I will never go back. Everybody's life is different, with different sets of circumstances. One thing is certain - truth, NAP (unless in self-defense) and a desire to make ones own path should always be promoted and never stifled. What other people choose to do, that's on them.

Voluntarists and "agorists" lived by the millions all throughout pre-revolutionary history, before the republics and the democracies.
Yeomen and Monks and Scholars and Farmers and Merchants all thrived and were more free than we are today. They just didn't have good dentists yet.

[CCTelander]

That's the underlying problem. People are so brainwashed, so incredibly indoctrinated, the reason why the country is the way that it is is because people scratch, claw, clutch and embrace the slave-owners over them. They can't even fathom, let alone entertain, or at least try to imagine life without them.

Very true. And until they can and do, they’ll never be free, even if the rest of us are.

[Invisible Man]

Maybe a nit but I'd disagree with that statement.

Government, like crime, is inevitable... but that doesn't mean it's necessary, justified, or ethical.

That was surprisingly well said.

[PAF]

Voluntarists and "agorists" lived by the millions all throughout pre-revolutionary history, before the republics and the democracies.
Yeomen and Monks and Scholars and Farmers and Merchants all thrived and were more free than we are today. They just didn't have good dentists yet.

LOL ok we agree :-)

So then why dis Agorists so much? Is it that commies and fascists seem like a better, new-and-improved approach? Or fashionably accepted because they are the new black?

[nobody's_hero]

That’s a bit of a fatalistic POV.

We’ll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

So you think because you don't want to form a government, your neighbors won't? the Texan isn't wrong. Governments are inevitable.

And as I said, if everyone agrees with you, it works fine. The moment someone doesn't . . .

That's why I usually don't dedicate much time to these philosophical masturbatory threads, and I feel like I've spent too much of the day involved with this one.

[Snowball]

LOL ok we agree :-)

So then why dis Agorists so much? Is it that commies and fascists seem like a better, new-and-improved approach? Or fashionably accepted because they are the new black?

Only on the points I made earlier, on the macro level, it is insufficient and I suspect it would lead back to democracy again.
I do not ascribe to democracy on anything but the local level.

[PAF]

So you think because you don't want to form a government, your neighbors won't? the Texan isn't wrong. Governments are inevitable.

Just like communism spreads like cancer... wouldn't it be logical that the more people who would like volunteerism to flourish to embrace it, rather than dis it, so that it would likewise flourish enough that we would have more of an impact?

Or is that completely out of the question because STATISM is the only and preferred way to go.

[pcosmar]

And as I said, if everyone agrees with you, it works fine. The moment someone doesn't . . .

Someone willing to use Violence will set new rules.

[CCTelander]

So you think because you don't want to form a government, your neighbors won't? the Texan isn't wrong. Governments are inevitable.

And as I said, if everyone agrees with you, it works fine. The moment someone doesn't . . .

That's why I usually don't dedicate much time to these philosophical masturbatory threads, and I feel like I've spent too much of the day involved with this one.

There are simple, practical and effective ways of preventing such outcomes once we get to the point that it becomes necessary.

As far as “philosophical masterbatory threads” go, it seems to me that CONstitutional fantasIes qualify as such as well. The difference is that in real life, where CONstitutions have been tried, they have UNIVERSALLY FAILED, miserably.

In those few instances where some form of statelessness has been tried, it usually works out rather well, until conquered by an outside force.

Modern technology provides ways to prevent that eventuality too, but you’re not really interested in those kinds of “masterbatory” ideas it seems.

Keep on doing that CONstitution fap then. To each his own, I guess.

[PAF]

Only on the points I made earlier, on the macro level, it is insufficient and I suspect it would lead back to democracy again.
I do not ascribe to democracy on anything but the local level.

Even at the local level I reject it. Are there times that I vote on very local issues? Yes, sometimes. But I make damned sure that I speak to the locals first, which more people ought to do. Not so much to "vote", but rather so that they know the positions they believe they are supporting.

[PAF]

Someone willing to use Violence will set new rules.

The NAP accounts for that. So? Without .Gov intervention, you'll have a much better chance of standing your ground.

And you still didn't respond to my camel post.

[pcosmar]

The NAP accounts for that. So?

Very few even know what NAP is,, even less actually follow it..

Does NOT apply to an Aggressor.

and I can't afford Camels,,I roll my own.

Apparently you support the Saudi Head-choppers.. and keep filling their Coffers.

[Snowball]

Even at the local level I reject it. Are there times that I vote on very local issues? Yes, sometimes. But I make damned sure that I speak to the locals first, which more people ought to do. Not so much to "vote", but rather so that they know the positions they believe they are supporting.

Yes, I did not mean democracy pertaining to government. I meant on local matters permitted, such as whether to build a dam, or zoning, or a fire department, etc. certain referendums or customs.

[PAF]

Very few even know want NAP is,, even less actually follow it..

Does NOT apply to an Aggressor.

and I can't afford Camels,,I roll my own.

Costly, and more than that time consuming - I get my mine at the Indian Res $10/carton - already rolled. As an Agorist, Indians are exempt from taxation on smokes ;-) You're still paying taxes on what you buy.

[Snowball]

Costly, and more than that time consuming - I get my mine at the Indian Res $10/carton - already rolled. As an Agorist, Indians are exempt from taxation on smokes ;-) You're still paying taxes on what you buy.

I used to get mine delivered from them until the Democratist Representatives said I could not. So, now I RYO.

[PAF]

Yes, I did not mean democracy pertaining to government. I meant on local matters permitted, such as whether to build a dam, or zoning, or a fire department, etc. certain referendums or customs.

Do you support Eminent Domain, if the private dam happens to be planned on being built on somebody's property but interferes with your view? Just want to know where you stand.

[PAF]

I used to get mine delivered from them until the Democratist Representatives said I could not. So, now I RYO.

I drive 2-1/2 hours each way. Beautiful view, great rib joint along the way, so I make it a fun trip twice per year. I stock up good, just to avoid Funding the State, as a good Agorist should ;-)

[Snowball]

Do you support Eminent Domain, if the private dam happens to be planned on being built on somebody's property but interferes with your view? Just want to know where you stand.

Well, since there are two parties with obtuse opinions, the matter has to be solved, does it not. The way you describe it, that's not eminent domain.

[PAF]

Well, since there are two parties with obtuse opinions, the matter has to be solved, does it not. The way you describe it, that's not eminent domain.

Right on

[PAF]

Very few even know what NAP is,, even less actually follow it..

Does NOT apply to an Aggressor.

and I can't afford Camels,,I roll my own.

Apparently you support the Saudi Head-choppers.. and keep filling their Coffers.

It doesn't matter, the NAP accounts for that too, just break into my home and find out how the NAP works ;-)

Saudi Head-choppers - is that a biker gang? Seems you can't quit with the commie thing-a-ma-jig lol

[pcosmar]

Costly, and more than that time consuming - I get my mine at the Indian Res $10/carton - already rolled. As an Agorist, Indians are exempt from taxation on smokes ;-) You're still paying taxes on what you buy.

I pay tax on everything.
but less than $30 a month.

I think Govt should run from a TIP Jar. and less of it,

The Constitution was that model.. what has been done in the last 200 years,, is a Violation of the Constitution.

and you are judging something that has not been in used at all in the last 100 years.
It's bad because it was discarded by nefarious individuals working in concert to destroy it.

pretty lame thought process.

[pcosmar]

It doesn't matter, the NAP accounts for that too, just break into my home and find out how the NAP works ;-)

I break in ,,You would do Nothing.. Likely already Dead or not present at all..

I come with that intent I will kill first. while you contemplate the NAP.