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Thread: The U.S. Constitution: Pro-Freedom?

  1. #1

    Lightbulb The U.S. Constitution: Pro-Freedom?

    “The right to life is the source of all rights—and the right to property is their only implementation. Without property rights, no other rights are possible. Since man has to sustain his life by his own effort, the man who has no right to the product of his effort has no means to sustain his life. The man who produces while others dispose of his product, is a slave.”

    An Agorist Primer



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  3. #2
    If that man ever had his way ,,his utopia would be Owned by a Warlord in 2 years.

    as soon as you organize defense you have created Government.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    If that man ever had his way ,,his utopia would be Owned by a Warlord in 2 years.

    as soon as you organize defense you have created Government.
    I agree with you that we will never rid ourselves of warlords. I hold out no hope of ever seeing that, nor do I consider it a worthy use of time and energy to pursue that as a goal.

    But accepting this inevitability doesn't require that I convince myself that these warlords who subjugate me and others are actually the good guys, and cease to state the truth that the means they depend on for their power are unjust violent acts. I have to live with this reality, but I don't have to endorse it.
    There is nothing to fear from globalism, free trade and a single worldwide currency, but a globalism where free trade is competitively subsidized by each nation, a continuous trade war is dictated by the WTO, and the single currency is pure fiat, fear is justified. That type of globalism is destined to collapse into economic despair, inflationism and protectionism and managed by resurgent militant nationalism.
    Ron Paul
    Congressional Record (March 13, 2001)

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    If that man ever had his way ,,his utopia would be Owned by a Warlord in 2 years.

    as soon as you organize defense you have created Government.

    It is amazing how indoctrinated people have become that even those who tout freedom and individualism embrace communism… in a different Kool-Aid flavor. Same basic ingredients… do you prefer Grape or Cherry?
    “The right to life is the source of all rights—and the right to property is their only implementation. Without property rights, no other rights are possible. Since man has to sustain his life by his own effort, the man who has no right to the product of his effort has no means to sustain his life. The man who produces while others dispose of his product, is a slave.”

    An Agorist Primer

  6. #5
    Not only is he right, but the Constitution was never legally ratified by Rhode Island, if one applies true justice, because Rhode Island was coerced, threatened and forced to sign it.


    When the Constitution becomes an instrument of tyranny
    http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...tution+problem
    "For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy ... Its preparations are concealed, not published. Its mistakes are buried not headlined. Its dissenters are silenced, not praised. No expenditure is questioned, no rumor is printed, no secret is revealed." - J.F.K.

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowball View Post
    Not only is he right, but the Constitution was never legally ratified by Rhode Island, if one applies true justice, because Rhode Island was coerced, threatened and forced to sign it.


    When the Constitution becomes an instrument of tyranny
    http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...tution+problem
    The CONstitution was a Hamiltonian coupe to make a strong central government that ruled all- has worked perfectly.
    There is no spoon.

  8. #7
    This is the kind of crap that has been taught in government schools and colleges for years. Sad.

    You want your liberty and freedom, bring God back to this nation.
    “The spirits of darkness are now among us. We have to be on guard so that we may realize what is happening when we encounter them and gain a real idea of where they are to be found. The most dangerous thing you can do in the immediate future will be to give yourself up unconsciously to the influences which are definitely present.” ~ Rudolf Steiner

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Ender View Post
    The CONstitution was a Hamiltonian coupe to make a strong central government that ruled all- has worked perfectly.
    Do you think that if we had kept the Articles of Confederation, with the spineless people we have in the nation now (present company and myself included), that it would not have ballooned into the government we have today?

    Or if we had nothing at all on paper, that we would have kept government either restrained, or from forming at all if it did not exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by PAF
    It is amazing how indoctrinated people have become that even those who tout freedom and individualism embrace communism… in a different Kool-Aid flavor. Same basic ingredients… do you prefer Grape or Cherry?
    I do not believe that @pcosmar was "embracing" anything. He was stating an inevitability.

    Governments come from somewhere. Even in the complete absence of government, it must be kept at bay, lest one be formed, and that has NOTHING to do with a piece of paper, and everything to do with the people. In the effort to keep one at bay, you must organize, and in essence, you have at that moment created a de facto government. Ooopsie.

    I was in Europe when the constitution was planned & established, and never saw it till after it was established. on receiving it I wrote strongly to mr Madison urging the want of provision for the freedom of religion, freedom of the press, trial by jury, habeas corpus, the substitution of militia for a standing army, and an express reservation to the states of all rights not specifically granted to the union. he accordingly moved in the first session of Congress for these Amendments which were agreed to & ratified by the states as they now stand. this is all the hand I had in what related to the Constitution. our predecessors made it doubtful how far even these were of any value. for the very law which endangered your personal safety, as well as that which restrained the freedom of the press, were gross violations of them. however it is still certain that tho’ written constitutions may be violated in moments of passion or delusion, yet they furnish a text to which those who are watchful may again rally & recall the people: they fix too for the people principles for their political creed. - From Thomas Jefferson to Joseph Priestley, 19 June 1802
    Short of donnay's suggestion, the best chance we have, IMO, is to pit government against government. That is to say, restore the federalist system we are supposed to have. Encourage states to put up some semblance of resistance to the ever-encroaching federal usurpation of their own power and authority. But even then, it is unquestionable how much the people will whine and moan if anyone attempts it. Look what happened with Roe V Wade being overturned and the power stripped from the hands of the Feds. There is very much gnashing of teeth.
    Last edited by nobody's_hero; 09-20-2022 at 12:08 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    This is getting silly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    It started silly.
    T.S. Eliot's The Hollow Men

    "One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors." - Plato

    We Are Running Out of Time - Mini Me



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by nobody's_hero View Post
    Do you think that if we had kept the Articles of Confederation, with the spineless people we have in the nation now (present company and myself included), that it would not have ballooned into the government we have today?

    Or if we had nothing at all on paper, that we would have kept government either restrained, or from forming at all?
    If the states were left to govern themselves we wouldn't have the spineless people we have in the nation now. No One Ring To Rule Them All.

    No central banks, no huge wars all over the planet, no national depts of education, health, food, medicine, whatever, to keep you spineless.
    There is no spoon.

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by nobody's_hero View Post
    Do you think that if we had kept the Articles of Confederation, with the spineless people we have in the nation now (present company and myself included), that it would not have ballooned into the government we have today?

    Or if we had nothing at all on paper, that we would have kept government either restrained, or from forming at all?



    I do not believe that pcosmar was "embracing" anything. He was stating an inevitability.

    Governments come from somewhere. Even in the complete absence of government, it must be kept at bay, lest one be formed, and that has NOTHING to do with a piece of paper, and everything to do with the people. In the effort to keep one at bay, you must organize, and in essence, you have at that moment created a de facto government. Ooopsie.

    Here is why it is so difficult to reach people who have been indoctrinated, most if not all, of their lives: One provides them with something, such as the truth, hard-evidence, examples, and they immediately And yet they ignore everything that you try to get across to them, and expect you to revert backward and follow their time-proven failed path.

    As to your last sentence, liberty comes from within. I do not have a communist mentality where one "side" is better than the "other" therefore I must choose between the two. If each individual embraces and practices individualism and sets the example for others, maybe it still would not be overwhelming, but certainly would be more accepted, and we would be a little freer.

    @nobody's_hero and @donnay, did you even take the time to listen to the entire short video? I would be more than happy to debate the actual content of what was said in the video, if there are specifics examples that you disagree with.
    Last edited by PAF; 09-20-2022 at 12:14 PM.
    “The right to life is the source of all rights—and the right to property is their only implementation. Without property rights, no other rights are possible. Since man has to sustain his life by his own effort, the man who has no right to the product of his effort has no means to sustain his life. The man who produces while others dispose of his product, is a slave.”

    An Agorist Primer

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Ender View Post
    If the states were left to govern themselves we wouldn't have the spineless people we have in the nation now. No One Ring To Rule Them All.

    No central banks, no huge wars all over the planet, no national depts of education, health, food, medicine, whatever, to keep you spineless.
    This is true. I amended my post while you were typing this to say just that.
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    This is getting silly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    It started silly.
    T.S. Eliot's The Hollow Men

    "One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors." - Plato

    We Are Running Out of Time - Mini Me

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post

    @nobody's_hero and @donnay, did you even take the time to listen to the entire short video? I would be more than happy to debate the actual content of what was said in the video, if there are specifics examples that you disagree with.
    To be frank, I was responding to your implication that pcosmar endorsed communism with his comment, which was a matter-of-fact statement of reality rather than an opinion. It really had nothing to do with the video.

    Let's say you live in a land with 1,000 rugged individualists and a massive government rolls up to the border er, excuse me, non-border of your land, how do you intend or expect to stop it, without organizing? And what would you call this organization, keeping in mind that it quacks like a government, walks like government, and swims like government?
    Last edited by nobody's_hero; 09-20-2022 at 12:22 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    This is getting silly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    It started silly.
    T.S. Eliot's The Hollow Men

    "One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors." - Plato

    We Are Running Out of Time - Mini Me

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by donnay View Post
    This is the kind of crap that has been taught in government schools and colleges for years. Sad.

    You want your liberty and freedom, bring God back to this nation.
    That has been the focus of Some.. and strongly opposed by atheists.

    Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by nobody's_hero View Post
    To be frank, I was responding to your implication that pcosmar endorsed communism with his comment, which was a matter-of-fact statement of reality rather than an opinion. It really had nothing to do with the video.

    Let's say you live in a land with 1,000 individualists and a massive government rolls up to the border er, excuse me, non-border of your land, how do you intend or expect to stop it, without organizing?

    Perfect example of why I would like you to listen to the video. He discusses exactly that in either the above video or this one here: http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...arndest-Things
    “The right to life is the source of all rights—and the right to property is their only implementation. Without property rights, no other rights are possible. Since man has to sustain his life by his own effort, the man who has no right to the product of his effort has no means to sustain his life. The man who produces while others dispose of his product, is a slave.”

    An Agorist Primer

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    It is amazing how indoctrinated people have become that even those who tout freedom and individualism embrace communism… in a different Kool-Aid flavor. Same basic ingredients… do you prefer Grape or Cherry?
    I Tire Quickly with Philosophical debate,,Been dealing with Reality too long.

    and I have NO interest in listening to any of that mans Garbage. Heard it before.

    go on with your mental masturbation.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    That has been the focus of Some.. and strongly opposed by atheists.
    Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.
    Bullsh|t. That is what STATISTS brainwash you to believe.

    Statists Say The Darndest Things
    “The right to life is the source of all rights—and the right to property is their only implementation. Without property rights, no other rights are possible. Since man has to sustain his life by his own effort, the man who has no right to the product of his effort has no means to sustain his life. The man who produces while others dispose of his product, is a slave.”

    An Agorist Primer



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    Perfect example of why I would like you to listen to the video. He discusses exactly that in either the above video or this one here: http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...arndest-Things
    I'm listening to it now, and there is much I agree with, at least in principle.

    However, I still think it's rather silly to blame a piece of paper for our woes. Whether it's the US Constitution, the Articles of Confederation, or mama's List of Chores for the household that she slapped to the fridge with a magnet, it's all utterly meaningless if it isn't enforced.

    And I'd be willing to bet everything that if the people had been steadfast in enforcing the constitution as it exists in writing today, this guy would have no audience.
    Last edited by nobody's_hero; 09-20-2022 at 12:33 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    This is getting silly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    It started silly.
    T.S. Eliot's The Hollow Men

    "One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors." - Plato

    We Are Running Out of Time - Mini Me

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    I Tire Quickly with Philosophical debate,,Been dealing with Reality too long.

    and I have NO interest in listening to any of that mans Garbage. Heard it before.

    go on with your mental masturbation.
    Watermelon, perhaps?
    “The right to life is the source of all rights—and the right to property is their only implementation. Without property rights, no other rights are possible. Since man has to sustain his life by his own effort, the man who has no right to the product of his effort has no means to sustain his life. The man who produces while others dispose of his product, is a slave.”

    An Agorist Primer

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by nobody's_hero View Post
    I'm listening to it now, and there is much I agree with.

    However, I still think it's rather silly to blame a piece of paper for our woes. Whether it's the US Constitution, the Articles of Confederation, or mama's List of Chores for the household that she slapped to the fridge with a magnet, it's all utterly meaningless if it isn't enforced.
    The problem is, that "piece of paper" coerces people into thinking and believing that criminal acts of stealing, waging war, transferring power and wealth, are somehow moral and just. As Larken stated, the very CONstitution is a complete and utter contradiction to what the Declaration of Independence stood for. And yet today, people believe they go hand-in-hand.
    “The right to life is the source of all rights—and the right to property is their only implementation. Without property rights, no other rights are possible. Since man has to sustain his life by his own effort, the man who has no right to the product of his effort has no means to sustain his life. The man who produces while others dispose of his product, is a slave.”

    An Agorist Primer

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    Bullsh|t. That is what STATISTS brainwash you to believe.

    Statists Say The Darndest Things

    LOL


    I learned Liberty in a Cage.. Maximum Security Authoritarian Environment..
    And there were the Power Brokers,, the soldiers,, and the Prey.

    I walked the Main Yard as a Free Man.

    got out,,jumped through hoops,, Then Didn't.

    Lived 8 years,,Portland to Key West..

    Local Cops Did not want to arrest me,, I had to ask them nice.. To get my Name back.

    Currently Kept as an old pet by 2 women.

    You obviously do not know me very well.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    The problem is, that "piece of paper" coerces people into thinking and believing that criminal acts of stealing, waging war, transferring power and wealth, are somehow moral and just. As Larken stated, the very CONstitution is a complete and utter contradiction to what the Declaration of Independence stood for. And yet today, people believe they go hand-in-hand.
    And would the absence of a piece of paper prevent that? (<--- my point in all this)

    (my answer: No.)

    You need only look at areas of the world where actual warlords exist. The weak submit to the strong. Or more accurately, the unorganized submit to the organized. But they don't need any paper to show who is boss.

    In the absence of government, one will be formed. Just like 'bad money drives out good money'. Bad government drives out good government (or even no government).
    Last edited by nobody's_hero; 09-20-2022 at 12:47 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    This is getting silly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    It started silly.
    T.S. Eliot's The Hollow Men

    "One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors." - Plato

    We Are Running Out of Time - Mini Me

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post

    LOL


    I learned Liberty in a Cage.. Maximum Security Authoritarian Environment..
    And there were the Power Brokers,, the soldiers,, and the Prey.

    I walked the Main Yard as a Free Man.

    got out,,jumped through hoops,, Then Didn't.

    Lived 8 years,,Portland to Key West..

    Local Cops Did not want to arrest me,, I had to ask them nice.. To get my Name back.

    Currently Kept as an old pet by 2 women.

    You obviously do not know me very well.
    A hard life for sure. But, I can assure you, you don't know me too well either. More than half a century, traveled to many a land and country, gone through everything and more than one can even imagine, I have learned the HARD WAY. Only recently have I begun to see.
    “The right to life is the source of all rights—and the right to property is their only implementation. Without property rights, no other rights are possible. Since man has to sustain his life by his own effort, the man who has no right to the product of his effort has no means to sustain his life. The man who produces while others dispose of his product, is a slave.”

    An Agorist Primer

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by nobody's_hero View Post
    And would the absence of a piece of paper prevent that? (<--- my point in all this)

    (my answer: No.)
    It "legalized" everything in it. And what recourse do people have because of it?
    “The right to life is the source of all rights—and the right to property is their only implementation. Without property rights, no other rights are possible. Since man has to sustain his life by his own effort, the man who has no right to the product of his effort has no means to sustain his life. The man who produces while others dispose of his product, is a slave.”

    An Agorist Primer

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    The problem is, that "piece of paper" coerces people into thinking and believing that criminal acts of stealing, waging war, transferring power and wealth, are somehow moral and just. .
    NO They Don't..
    Barkin Larken is FULL of $#@!. and ignoring a lot of History..

    Prior to the Socialist Coup.. all military was Volunteer.

    I remember being the First of the Volunteer Army in 1974.. after the end of the Draft.
    Last edited by pcosmar; 09-20-2022 at 12:47 PM.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom



  28. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    A hard life for sure. But, I can assure you, you don't know me too well either. More than half a century, traveled to many a land and country, gone through everything and more than one can even imagine, I have learned the HARD WAY. Only recently have I begun to see.
    It's all Biblical. The scales hast descended from thine eyes. All that remains is the blinding truth.
    "For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy ... Its preparations are concealed, not published. Its mistakes are buried not headlined. Its dissenters are silenced, not praised. No expenditure is questioned, no rumor is printed, no secret is revealed." - J.F.K.

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    It "legalized" everything in it. And what recourse do people have because of it?
    Something I learned during this change of the British monarchy is that the UK doesn't have a written constitution. Some countries don't. They still have unwritten constitutions. But they end up with similar regimes just by different means.
    There is nothing to fear from globalism, free trade and a single worldwide currency, but a globalism where free trade is competitively subsidized by each nation, a continuous trade war is dictated by the WTO, and the single currency is pure fiat, fear is justified. That type of globalism is destined to collapse into economic despair, inflationism and protectionism and managed by resurgent militant nationalism.
    Ron Paul
    Congressional Record (March 13, 2001)

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    It "legalized" everything in it. And what recourse do people have because of it?
    Tell me where it Legalized Gun Laws??

    and what in there could be construed as a Legal Right to Kill Babies?
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    NO They Don't..
    Barkin Larken is FULL of $#@!. and ignoring a lot of History..

    Prior to the Socialist Coup.. all military was Volunteer.

    I remember being the First of the Volunteer Army in 1974.. after the end of the Draft.
    And look what the CONstitution did. Commander in Chief ring a little bell?
    “The right to life is the source of all rights—and the right to property is their only implementation. Without property rights, no other rights are possible. Since man has to sustain his life by his own effort, the man who has no right to the product of his effort has no means to sustain his life. The man who produces while others dispose of his product, is a slave.”

    An Agorist Primer

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    Tell me where it Legalized Gun Laws??

    and what in there could be construed as a Legal Right to Kill Babies?
    Simple: The power to TAX, and delegate authority. Try telling Fed.gov you disagree with something on a personal level and that you don't want to pay taxes toward that. And State.gov too for that matter.
    “The right to life is the source of all rights—and the right to property is their only implementation. Without property rights, no other rights are possible. Since man has to sustain his life by his own effort, the man who has no right to the product of his effort has no means to sustain his life. The man who produces while others dispose of his product, is a slave.”

    An Agorist Primer

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    It "legalized" everything in it. And what recourse do people have because of it?
    The same recourse they would have if it didn't exist: the balls to do something about it, to alter or even abolish government. Everything King George III did was legal up until the people decided it wasn't. But again that responsibility rests entirely on the people, not a piece of paper. You could sneak into the national archives and replace the Constitution with some kindergartener's first finger-painting, and it wouldn't change much.

    However on my list of priorities of things to change about the federal government, getting rid of the Constitution and the BoR with it, would not make the first thousand pages.

    Especially when there are people who are ALSO calling for the abolition of that 'racist document hatched by white nationalists' because they want to rule uncontested in a vacuum devoid of any common principles. I cannot abide that. And I do not see the merit in helping them point out its flaws, at this time. (which is why, you must forgive me, I could not finish even this dude's short video)

    The constitution, at least, is as Jefferson put it:

    "a text to which those who are watchful may again rally & recall the people: they fix too for the people principles for their political creed."
    Last edited by nobody's_hero; 09-20-2022 at 01:04 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    This is getting silly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    It started silly.
    T.S. Eliot's The Hollow Men

    "One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors." - Plato

    We Are Running Out of Time - Mini Me

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