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Thread: The U.S. Constitution: Pro-Freedom?

  1. #211
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    Not drinking Reading before posting is fundamental:
    I read that. So what? Am I supposed to fall on my knees before that statement and not question it?
    ...



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  3. #212
    Quote Originally Posted by RJB View Post
    I read that. So what? Am I supposed to fall on my knees before that statement and not question it?
    You don’t have to do anything. Except maybe determine if that Centralized Communistic document has your [Individual Liberty and Personal Fiscal Responsibility] best interest at heart.


    Please refrain from embarrassing yourselves, by claiming that the so-called Amendments to the Constitution, protect you from loss of freedom or the unlimited power of government. These claims are nothing more than strawman arguments, for if the unlimited taxation powers in Article 1 were purposely left intact, as they were, any amendment would be little more than a ruse meant to fool, as contradictory language can always be used in order to achieve any outcome desired by those holding power. One does not have to rely on this single abuse however, because of all the other unlimited powers granted to Congress by the designers of the Constitution. (Thieves and criminals)

    In the same power’s clauses, those in government granted themselves the power:

    To borrow money on the credit of the United States; (no limits)

    To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes; (no limits)

    To establish a uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States; (no limits)

    To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures; (no limits)

    To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States; (no limits)

    To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water; (no limits) and;

    To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof. (Blanket protection of no limits)


    These are not the entirety of the powers given, but should be enough so that even the most obtuse among the crowd, can understand the unlimited nature of what are falsely called the “Laws of the Land,” when in fact, these are only laws against the land and against the people.

    http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...ted-Government
    ____________

    An Agorist Primer ~ Samuel Edward Konkin III (free PDF download)

    The End of All Evil ~ Jeremy Locke (free PDF download)

  4. #213
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    You don’t have to do anything. Except maybe determine if that Centralized Communistic document has your [Individual Liberty and Personal Fiscal Responsibility] best interest at heart.
    OK without platitudes, fairytales, and your usual diversions, what is your plan?
    ...

  5. #214
    Quote Originally Posted by RJB View Post
    OK without platitudes, fairytales, and your usual diversions, what is your plan?
    Fair question

    There’s not a lot one can do when we’re up against that kind of money. Even concerning the MIC, people want/need their jobs and won’t vote against it. Same with Welfare folks in Section 8, who would rather kill you than vote against it.

    Maybe instead of propping up the Central rag which allows it to happen, take advantage of the “secession movement” that seems to be popular and accepted, and try to talk to folks about ways to actually DEFUND the State/Fed. Don’t talk politicians up which only gives the .gov credibility as well as your consent, and instead try to live the best you can without observance or help from the government. It might not have much of an affect considering the $Billions$ pumped into lobbying, but the more people do this, it’s essentially seceding without the “permission” of authorities.
    ____________

    An Agorist Primer ~ Samuel Edward Konkin III (free PDF download)

    The End of All Evil ~ Jeremy Locke (free PDF download)

  6. #215
    I may have posted this before, but it bears repetition... or so I like to flatter myself.

    We are living in historic times, which means not only are certain things tough, but that we stand at a nexus, our choices likely to affect the quality of our lives from this point forward, as well as those of our posterity for long years and decades to come. It therefore behooves us to make our choices carefully. Let us go not from pan into fire, but rather let us move with strong and intelligent force to preserve our liberty and cultivate it towards ever greater perfection. This would prove a diametric departure from what we have been doing since at least the time of the Civil War, since which we have gone in the precise opposite direction, allowing those in positions of practical power to ever elide our Rights, most often under the pretext of some crisis, real or conjured.


    To that end, I propose we call an Article V Convention of the states and in that forum, put forth for ratification a Twenty Eighth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America. This Amendment specifies in clear language the duties, obligations, and responsibilities of integrity and performance to which all sworn Public servants must adhere and comport themselves during their tenures as such.


    Amendment 28 further specifies the punishments to be meted in cases where such servants, the Instruments of "state" and "government", violate their oaths of good faith and competent service. Those punishments are severe, to say the least, often including long prison sentences at hard labor, and may include death as the ultimate penalty. In addition, their families shall not rest immune in any case where they may be deemed as having shared culpability in the relevant crimes, profited from them in any way whatsoever, regardless of how indirectly, or having had even the least hint of something being amiss, failed to report their suspicions to the people.


    The objective of this Amendment is to make the work of anyone in "government" so fraught with real and immediate danger where failure, mishap, and criminal acts are concerned, that none but the most pure of heart, utter competence, and steadfast trustworthiness would so much as consider such positions of Special Trust. The consequences of failure, much less criminal action, for those who choose to become Instruments of governance, must be precisely so severe in order to dissuade all but the most pathologically criminal among us to eschew the burdens of Public service for the sheer terror that the gravities must rightly instill. As for that tiny minority of willful miscreants, the punishments stand to cross their names from the gene pool.


    Therefore, and in further pursuance of the goal of holding "government" on an infinitesimally short lead, I present for your edification and the ostensible salvation of humanity's last remaining bastion of hope for its own freedoms, the rightful and proper Twenty Eighth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America:




    Amendment XXVIII




    Because individuals holding Public office and other governmental appointments occupy positions of Special Trust, they must be sternly held to a higher standard of behavior. Intent of action is irrelevant to the actual results that arise from the choices made by those in such positions. It is only to the results of those choices to which the People, meaning every individual American, must turn their attentions and considerations where such choices result in the violation, diminution, or other disparagement of the Rights of innocent men, for no man holds the least authority to violate said Rights. This is trebly so of those who choose to take up the mantle of the Public Trust, and for that reason we amend this Constitution as follows.


    The purpose of this Amendment is to address the unjust results of those Servants who fail to uphold their sworn oaths, whether through design, incompetence, or mishap, and to specify the hazards all such individuals shall face for the commission of Crimes and Violations against those to whom they swore their oaths of good faith and competent service.


    Free Men stand under the constant threat of those who would see them subdued and reduced in status to some form and degree of servitude. It matters no whit whence, but when “government” in any form or fraction thereof becomes the source of such threats, the risks to life, limb, and other properties of Free Men are most acutely set to hazard and damage.

    This Amendment seeks to reduce the means and abilities by which any government Instrument may be set against the Free Men of America by outlining in detail the limits to be placed upon all such Instruments, as well as the hazards they face in the event of any violation of the Rights of a Free Man. It further reasserts the powers of Free Men to resist violations by “government”.





    I. Definitions




    This section shall set forth and define all special terms used in this Amendment




    Act of Governance


    Any action undertaken by an Instrument or group thereof under the authority of either a duly sworn warrant, or as the result of witnessing the real and immediate commission of a criminal act by an individual or group thereof.


    Any action taken by Free Men in defense against Violations or other Crimes committed by other Instruments, or other Free Men. Such actions may also be taken when “government” proves itself unworthy of the Public Trust, rendering such Instruments unreliable as to the proper discharge of the duties to which they swore Oaths of Good Faith and Competent Service.




    Amended Crime [Violation]


    An Amended Crime is one where the perpetrator has made sufficient reparations to his victim for each criminal act to assess said victim as having been remade as whole in terms of every loss suffered at the hands of the perpetrator.

    A sufficiently Amended Violation shall be deemed as not a Crime.





    Crime [Violation]


    For the purposes of this Amendment, a Crime is any Unamended Violation committed in trespass of the Sovereign Rights of Free Men who cannot be demonstrated prima facie to have committed any criminal act warranting governing action. Such action may only be undertaken by Instruments where criminal action is being witnessed as taking place in real time, or has been alleged under oath and affirmation by an individual or group thereof, resulting in an actionable warrant which shall most narrowly specify the actions to be taken and the service of which shall be confined strictly to its specifications and other instructions. Any actions taken outside the metes and bounds of such specifications shall call for in-depth investigation by third-parties unrelated to any individual or his related organizations or agencies, to determine whether such excursions from specifications were avoidable, and thereby punishable.


    Any individual, whether Instrument or Free Man, who bears intentional Formal false witness against any individual, whether Instrument or Free Man, shall face the same hazards as those to which he or they put, or would have put, the falsely accused.


    All Crimes are Violations, but not all Violations are Crimes. Crimes are a proper subset of Violations.


    Criminal


    Any human individual living within the territorial borders of the United States of America who has committed a Crime, or is living under Criminal Debt, having been previously and duly convicted of a Crime.


    That which constitutes a Crime.




    Criminal Debt


    That which is owed by an individual in consequence of having been duly convicted of a criminal act in a court of Law, by a jury of one’s peers or, in the case of those who act under sworn oaths of good faith and competent service, those who have been violated or act on their behalf.

    A Criminal Debt may include material assets, as well as time such as that comprising a prison sentence, or a death penalty.

    Anything penal or compensatory in nature as assessed against a Public Instrument duly convicted of a Crime as part of what they owe in restitution to their victims and/or as punishment for the deeds of which they have been duly convicted.





    Formal/Formal Act


    A Formal Act is one made so as to incite an official act of governance.


    Any act committed as part of an act of governance, such as a trial, sworn deposition, grand jury testimony, etc..




    Free Man


    Any human individual not living under Criminal Debt.








    Instrument, “Government Instrument”, "Public Instrument"


    Any individual who has been elected to Public office, whether by the people, by a Public body, or by any other means whatsoever.


    Any individual appointed to any Public office or other Public position by any means whatsoever.


    Any individual hired as a Public employee to any Public position whatsoever.


    Any individual Publicly contracted to discharge any Public duties whatsoever.


    This applies not only to individuals, but any group thereof imaginable that might be elected, appointed, hired, or contracted pursuant to Public duties.

    These three terms are perfect analogs.



    Furthermore, an Instrument is also the product of any individual, or group thereof in positions of Special Trust and service, the enactment or other application of which results in violations of the Rights of Free Men.




    Public

    Anything or anyone vested in the Public Trust



    Anything funded through taxation, whether in whole or in part.


    All Public personnel occupy Positions of Public Trust.


    All Public endeavors are vested of the Public Trust.


    The specifications of this definition applies to any and all levels and forms of governance/"government", whether federal, state, county, city, or village, etc.. There is no form, level, type, category, or degree of “government” to which this definition does not apply. All Public business, positions, and endeavors fall under this definition.


    No Public office, agency, Instrumentality, goal, objective, or endeavor may be labeled or categorized as not being Public. Any such mislabeling or false categorization, or misuse, or misapplication shall constitute a Crime.




    Public Trust/ Special Trust


    "Public Trust" and "Special Trust" are perfect synonyms and are interchangeable.


    A Special Trust is the trust of the People, taken as individuals and as an abstract collective, provisionally and conditionally granted to Instruments for the purposes of the discharge of their Public duties, all of which fall under the provisions of their sworn oaths of Good Faith and Competent Service. This trust is special in that it is assumed that those so vested in that trust shall not violate in any manner or to any degree and any time, or for any reason whatsoever. To violate the Public Trust is to have committed the most grave sort of Crime.

    The condition of the grant is that and Instrument never violate the Public Trust, whether through intent, incompetence, or mishap. Any such violation immediately divests the Instrument of his position of Special Trust and places him at risk of facing charges for a Crime.





    Restored Man


    The moment a Criminal Debt is discharged in full, the convict is restored to full Rights and may no longer be referred to as “convict”, save to state the fact that he was once convicted of a Crime.


    In the case of Instruments, restoration is limited as specified herein.




    Unamended Crime/Violation


    An Unamended Crime is one where the perpetrator is either incapable of, or unwilling to make whole the victims upon whom he has committed a Violation.

    In the case of incapacity, the Crime committed may not be regarded as being aggravated beyond the usual measure of such a Crime. For example, in the case of death resulting from the Crime, there is no means of restoring the victim to wholeness.

    In the case of no will to amend, the Crime committed may be regarded as being aggravated beyond the usual measure of such a Crime. For example, in the case of theft, the perpetrator refuses to return the stolen items to his victim, despite his ability to do so, or provide said victim with a suitable replacement.



    An Unamended Violation shall stand prima facie as a Crime against its victim.






    Violation


    A violation is any act committed by a government Instrument, as such, in trespass against the Sovereign Rights of any individual. Prevailing circumstances provide no defense for Instruments who act to violate Free Men, but may provide mitigating relief in cases of Amended Crimes where sentencing is to be considered. Unamended Violations and Crimes are perfect analogs.

    Any Violation committed that was based on information proven false, shall not constitute a crime, provided all good restitutions are made. In such cases of “innocent” violations, those ultimately responsible for providing false information shall be held to account for their failures in the relevant instances. This responsibility includes all individuals making official statements of facts they cannot substantiate as being true. Such individuals may be Instruments, witnesses, or those of other involvements in the relevant matter.

    Regardless of circumstances, any Instrument who commits a Violation, or contributes to the commitment of a Violation, shall at minimum be held responsible in part or in whole for reparations to the victims.



    Any and all contraventions, breaches, breaking, nonobservance, disobedience, defiance, flouting, neglect, ignoring, or disruption of one's sworn Oath of Good Faith and Competent Service constitutes a Violation. All Unamended Violations are Crimes.






    II. Limits of Action


    Under no circumstance, including those of declared “emergencies” and “crises” shall any Instrument be empowered to violate the inherent Rights of Free Men within the territorial boundaries of the United States of America, nor those of any American citizen who may be abroad of those bounds.


    The Bill of Rights, as embodied in Amendments 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9, reign supreme, all other considerations and purports to governmental authority waning to near vanishing in the shadows of those enumerations, most especially Amendments II, IX, and I.





    III. Waiver of Rights


    Where matters concerning the duties of an Instrument’s office and position are concerned, prior to perfection of the Instrument, the individual must agree to a waiver of certain Constitutional protections. The waiver shall include the following:





    1. Right to privacy
    2. Right to free speech (limited)
    3. Right to remain silent
    4. Right to not self-incriminate
    5. Right to legal counsel



    Pursuant to these waivers, all Instruments agree to answer fully and with complete candor and honesty, with no omissions of truth, all questions put to them during investigations of possible Crimes and Violations committed by themselves or other Instruments against Free Men.

    Refusal to answer in the ways required shall constitute a Crime in sé, shall constitute prima facie proof of one’s criminal intent, and shall result in one year at hard labor with no possibility of parole, for each count.

    Instruments deemed by investigating and prosecuting authorities to be of a lesser culpability, may trade sentencing for information deemed to be of extraordinary value by said authorities in pursuit of those of greater culpability. Under no circumstance shall a sentence be reduced below that of one year at hard labor.



    In all cases the Instrument shall lose his position as such and shall be forever barred from securing any position of Special Trust.


    These restrictions, as they apply to their tenures of service as Instruments, shall remain in effect for twenty years as of the last day of their service as an Instrument.



    IV. Amended Violations


    Any Instrument convicted of a Crime or other Violation and who amends his deeds sufficient to the victim’s assessment shall have their penalties reduced in severity as judge and victim(s) shall agree.


    In all cases, the Instrument shall lose his position as such and shall be forever barred from securing any position of Special Trust.





    V. Unamended Violations


    Any Instrument convicted of a Crime or other Violation and who is either incapable of making proper amends due to the nature of the Crime, or his incapacity, shall endure the full force of penalties but may be shown consideration if the victims accede to it unanimously.

    In the case where the convicted refuses to make amends where he might otherwise be able to do so, the Crime shall stand as aggravated and the convict shall bear the full force of penalties, with neither consideration nor mercy, the victim(s) having no say in the matters of such consideration or mercy.



    In all cases, the Instrument shall lose his position as such and shall be forever barred from securing any position of Special Trust.







    VI. Penalties and Exoneration


    Those convicted of Crimes or other Violations as Instruments of government shall bear the following penalties:



    1. Immediate loss of office/position, as well as all benefits, Rights, privileges, and protections attached thereto.
    2. Prohibition from holding any Public office or other position of Public Trust, whether elected, appointed, hired, or contracted, for life.
    3. All properties and other assets of the Instrument and his immediate family shall be forfeit. Any properties transferred to other parties, which can be demonstrated to have been so transferred as a measure to avoid forfeiture, including those so transferred within two years prior to having assumed his first position of Special Trust, shall come nonetheless equally under forfeiture.
    4. Any family member, friend, or other associate of the Instrument who can be proven to have had knowledge of the Crime(s) in question and who failed to come forward to expose said Crime(s) shall be held equally guilty and shall endure equal penalties.
    5. Unamended Crimes shall be punished with not less than one year at hard labor and not more than life at hard labor, save those that constitute Treason, which shall punished by Public execution.
    6. Instruments may not be pardoned for their Crimes by anyone, including the President. Any attempt to pardon a convicted instrument shall constitute a Crime.
    7. Any Instrument falsely convicted of a Crime and who has been exonerated through sufficient post-trial evidence shall be immediately restored in all ways to his pre-conviction condition. All parties responsible for such miscarriages of justice shall be held criminally culpable for the results of false conviction, including all witnesses who bore false testimony. There shall be no exceptions.
    8. Any failure of responsible parties to bring the proper charges against those for whom formal charges have been made and a prima facie case exists, shall be guilty of a Crime and shall be punished without trial to not less than one year at hard labor.
    9. Any Instrument convicted of intentionally obstructing justice pursuant to his service as an Instrument, or that of any other Instrument, shall be sentenced to not less than twenty years at hard labor with no possibility of parole.
    10. Any individual convicted of falsely formally accusing, or intentionally bearing false witness against an Instrument shall be sentenced double that which the Instrument would have received.
    11. Any individual convicted of having caused the false conviction and punishment of an instrument shall be sentenced trebly to that which said Instrument received. The individual shall be held accountable, along with his immediate family, for all material losses incurred by the victim of such a crime.







    VII. False Accusation


    Pursuant to truer justice, and given the severity of the penalties for Instruments convicted of Crimes or Violations, government Instruments must enjoy proper protection against false accusation. To that end, anyone who accuses an Instrument of Crimes and/or Violations in a Formal manner shall face the precise same hazards of those whom they so accuse. In the case where accusations prove to be intentionally false, the accuser shall suffer the punishments that would have been meted to the Instrument, had said Instrument been convicted. Where false accusations have been made where it can be demonstrated that proper care would have lead to no charge, the accusers shall be punished by six months at hard labor.





    VIII. Defense Against Crimes and Violations


    Free Men retain the right to resist Crimes and other Violations perpetrated against them by government Instruments, using any means they deem necessary to preserve the integrity of life, limb, freedom, and other property. It is only by the non-violent presentation of a validly sworn and issued warrant that a Free Man may be compelled to cooperate with Instruments in the immediate term. Any violence initiated by Instruments in the service of a warrant renders the warrant invalid, leaving subject(s) of the warrant free to take defensive measures. Any violence initiated by the subject of a valid warrant gives the serving Instruments leave to take defensive measures to affect service and preserve life, but nothing more.


    Anyone who acts in false defense against actions ultimately proven valid, those false actions may be deemed as aggravating factors if the actor is convicted of crimes which are directly related to said valid acts.


    Free Men may convene courts of their own making to address Crimes and Violations, particularly when it is deemed that governmental courts have not, cannot, or will not discharge their duties in accord with the protections against Crimes and Violations. Such failures in themselves constitute Crimes and shall be treated in accord with the specifications of this Amendment. The convethg of such courts renders all who become administratively involved with the proceedings as Public Instruments for the tenure of said proceedings, and shall bear the precise same obligations and face the identical risks, hazards, and penalties as any other Instrument in the discharge of the relevant duties.






    IX. Limited Restoration


    All Instruments convicted of crimes shall be restored to their Rights upon completion of their sentences, with the following exceptions.



    1. They may never again seek positions of Public Trust, doing so constituting a felony to be punished by not less than one year at hard labor and not more than five years at hard labor.
    2. All restrictions of Article III as apply to their service as an Instrument shall remain in effect for the remainder of their natural lives.
    3. They and their immediate family shall remain under official scrutiny for twenty years after the date of lapse of their sentences.
    4. Immediate family members shall be debarred from securing any position of Special Trust for a period of twenty years from the date of conviction of an Instrument.



    X. Oath of Good Faith and Competent Service


    Prior to perfecting any governmental Instrument, the individual(s) in question must take the following oath, which shall remain in force for the duration of the Instrument’s tenure. The requirement to answer questions relating to duties of said tenure shall persist for not less than thirty years after lapse:

    I , <state full name>, do solemnly swear under pain of penalties I acknowledge and to which I accede in advance, to uphold the Constitution of the United States of America and to defend it from all enemies, foreign and domestic.



    I do further solemnly swear, under even penalties, to abstain from committing Crimes and other Violations of the Rights of those to whom I swear this oath, the entirety of the People of the United States of America.


    I do finally and solemnly swear, under pain of even penalties, to make whole all those whom I unjustly damage, whether through accident, incompetence, ignorance, or unjust intent. Any refusal to make my victims whole shall stand as prima facie proof of criminal intent against them.


    Pursuant to the above sworn oath, I hereby waive my Constitutional Rights in all matters as they may relate to every facet of my sworn duties of office, and my position of Special Trust as a Public servant, as specified in Article Three of the Twenty Eighth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America. Namely, I waive my right to Right to privacy, my Right to free speech, my Right to remain silent, my Right to not self-incriminate, and my Right to legal counsel.


    I vow to answer all questions, officially put to me as they relate to the relevant matters of my duties with the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


    I swear this oath of fealty, good faith, and competent, honest, and honorable service to every individual man, woman, and child of the United States of America.


    I so swear this oath in the full capacity to do so with informed will, understanding, and consent without mental reservation or other impediment.


    I swear this affirmation and oath upon my honor, my freedom, and my life.



    Thus endeth the Amendment.





    I submit that it is only through the brute force of so seemingly draconian a set of specifications that we, the People, hold even the least hope of holding the Tyrant at bay. We are all witness to the mania of the various agents of "government". We are all witness to the endless destruction and misery caused by these mobs of criminally insane lunatics who pilfer, rape, rob, threaten, and murder their ways through careers in crime under the imprimatur of "the state".


    If we do not end Themme, Theye will end us. It is really that stark and simple.


    Until next time, please accept by best wishes.
    freedomisobvious.blogspot.com

    There is only one correct way: freedom. All other solutions are non-solutions.

    It appears that artificial intelligence is at least slightly superior to natural stupidity.

    Our words make us the ghosts that we are.

    Convincing the world he didn't exist was the Devil's second greatest trick; the first was convincing us that God didn't exist.

  7. #216
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    Ron needed a platform of which to speak, hoping that the indoctrinated people would come around and begin to think. Sure, it would be good to return to the CONstitution temporarily, which at that point discussions could be had among a more educated people:
    Sorry, but bull$#@!. I have followed Ron Paul since he first ran for the House. He has always been a strong proponent of the Constitution. Including what our Founders told us to do when our government was out of control and not following it.
    ================
    Open Borders: A Libertarian Reappraisal or why only dumbasses and cultural marxists are for it.

    Cultural Marxism: The Corruption of America

    The Property Basis of Rights



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  9. #217
    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyEagle View Post
    Sorry, but bull$#@!. I have followed Ron Paul since he first ran for the House. He has always been a strong proponent of the Constitution. Including what our Founders told us to do when our government was out of control and not following it.
    Yes, Ron has been a proponent of the constitution and wishes that we [and bureaucrats] would return to some of those principles, namely the Bill of Rights. It would be a lot of fun if you could find an opportunity to spend time with him and have lengthy conversation. Remember, he is a libertarian, not so much a republican, and whole-heartedly advocates the Austrian school, not the Keynesian system we are under.

    But then, it [liberty] should come from within, not just because somebody said so.
    ____________

    An Agorist Primer ~ Samuel Edward Konkin III (free PDF download)

    The End of All Evil ~ Jeremy Locke (free PDF download)

  10. #218
    Quote Originally Posted by RJB View Post
    OK without platitudes, fairytales, and your usual diversions, what is your plan?
    His stated plan is to opposed anyone doing anything,, except burning down and rejecting everything..

    it appears to be the result of Butt-hurt, at not getting their own way..

    therefore destroy everything.

    There is no plan.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  11. #219
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    Yes, Ron has been a proponent of the constitution and wishes that we [and bureaucrats] would return to some of those principles, namely the Bill of Rights[.
    Wrong,, Ron wants to end the Bureaucracy..

    That is most of the problems, the alphabet agencies. and Foreign control of a Central Bank(another Bureaucracy) a Close second.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  12. #220
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    Wrong,, Ron wants to end the Bureaucracy..

    That is most of the problems, the alphabet agencies. and Foreign control of a Central Bank(another Bureaucracy) a Close second.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    We believe our lying eyes...

  13. #221
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTexan View Post
    You didn't answer the question. I didn't ask from a "legal perspective". I asked from an ethical perspective: specifically, your ethical perspective.

    What do you believe?

    Do you believe that Texas has the unilateral right to secede, provided it makes a good faith effort to address any specific and legitimate damages the separation causes?

    It's a yes or no question... it does not require a thesis paper.
    I said it depends on the reason for seceding. In 1861 did Texas have the ethical right to secede so it could continue to maintain slavery?

    There's another factor to consider apart from damages, btw. Suppose an extreme anti-abortion State desires to punish any doctor or woman who facilitated or had an abortion prior to the overturning of Roe v. Wade. Knowing that such an ex post facto law would violate the federal constituion's ban on such laws it secedes and then passes a statute criminalizing such activity after the fact (assume the State's constitution doesn't contain a prohibition on such laws). A woman who had an abortion when Roe was the law is arrested before she has a chance to leave the State and is tried under the new law. Her defense is that the secession was illegal and the federal constitution's ban on ex post facto laws remains applicable. What should the result be?

    You could substitute some offense other than one relating to abortion. Maybe a State criminalizes the practice of a religion other than the one favored by a majority of the State's citizens. The point is that if an individual loses a right that is protected by the federal constitution (e.g., the right not to be subject to an ex post facto law or the right to freedom of religion) as a result of the secession is he just out of luck? The ex post facto example is an extreme case; only a rabid statist would think it ethical to punish someone for an act he performed not only when there was no prohibition against it, but also when the State was prohibited from criminalizing the act.
    We have long had death and taxes as the two standards of inevitability. But there are those who believe that death is the preferable of the two. "At least," as one man said, "there's one advantage about death; it doesn't get worse every time Congress meets."
    Erwin N. Griswold

    Taxes: Of life's two certainties, the only one for which you can get an automatic extension.
    Anonymous

  14. #222
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonny Tufts View Post
    I said it depends on the reason for seceding. In 1861 did Texas have the ethical right to secede so it could continue to maintain slavery?
    The better question is, did the North have a right to invade the south?

    If the North had invaded the South for the express purpose of ending slavery - I would be ok with that. But that did not happen.

    And even if the North did invade the South to end slavery (they didn't), they still would not have the right to keep the South perpetually in the union. At some point they would have to agree to let the South go their own way after the slavery issue was resolved.


    There's another factor to consider apart from damages, btw. Suppose an extreme anti-abortion State desires to punish any doctor or woman who facilitated or had an abortion prior to the overturning of Roe v. Wade. Knowing that such an ex post facto law would violate the federal constituion's ban on such laws it secedes and then passes a statute criminalizing such activity after the fact (assume the State's constitution doesn't contain a prohibition on such laws). A woman who had an abortion when Roe was the law is arrested before she has a chance to leave the State and is tried under the new law. Her defense is that the secession was illegal and the federal constitution's ban on ex post facto laws remains applicable. What should the result be?
    Basic respect for human rights would dictate that the doctors/women that this law would apply to, be allowed some time to leave the state (and never return). (or, secede from Texas itself)

    Otherwise yes, a sovereign nation is allowed to enact laws. The fact that these laws conflict with the laws of other nations, isn't exactly a new thing, and is zero justification for preventing a secession.

    You could substitute some offense other than one relating to abortion. Maybe a State criminalizes the practice of a religion other than the one favored by a majority of the State's citizens. The point is that if an individual loses a right that is protected by the federal constitution (e.g., the right not to be subject to an ex post facto law or the right to freedom of religion) as a result of the secession is he just out of luck? The ex post facto example is an extreme case; only a rabid statist would think it ethical to punish someone for an act he performed not only when there was no prohibition against it, but also when the State was prohibited from criminalizing the act.
    Again, a sovereign nation is allowed to pass laws, and those laws sometimes conflict with the laws of other nations. Sometimes those laws are to us morally reprehensible. The primary ethical concern is the right to self determination. Are they keeping people in their country (politically or physically) against their own free will? If the answer is no, then who are we to judge another nation's laws?

    Now, to try to get an answer on my original question:

    Quote Originally Posted by Sonny Tufts View Post
    I said it depends on the reason for seceding.
    That's not for you to decide. If we assume that Texas would give plenty of time for people to leave the state (including "slaves"), is there any reason that would preclude Texas from unilaterally seceding?

    If the answer to that question is anything but a straight-up "No", you are a tyrant.
    Last edited by TheTexan; 09-30-2022 at 04:52 PM.
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Crenshaw 2024!!!!

    My pronouns are he/him/his

  15. #223
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTexan View Post
    That's not for you to decide. If we assume that Texas would give plenty of time for people to leave the state (including "slaves"), is there any reason that would preclude Texas from unilaterally seceding?

    If the answer to that question is anything but a straight-up "No", you are a tyrant.
    How interesting. One of the standard responses to anarchists and the like who complain about government is "Well, if you don't like it here, why don't you leave?", to which the response is "Why should I leave? The government has no right to impose its will on me without my consent and negate my right of self-determination." You seem to be saying that the state government does have the right to force someone to leave if he doesn't like the state's law. Are you a tyrant?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTexan View Post
    If the North had invaded the South for the express purpose of ending slavery - I would be ok with that. But that did not happen.

    And even if the North did invade the South to end slavery (they didn't), they still would not have the right to keep the South perpetually in the union. At some point they would have to agree to let the South go their own way after the slavery issue was resolved.
    You have you history wrong. South Carolina fired the first shot against federal property. See http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...er#post7016772 I understand you disagree, but you're still wrong.

    Moreover, since slavery was the reason for secession and since the North would never allow slavery to continue, why would the Confederacy states wish to remain independent? You can generalize that: if a state secedes solely because it wants to impose a condition on its citizens that the rest of the country will not abide and uses force to prevent, why would the seceding state want to remain independent if it knows it can never impose that condition?

    It's interesting that you seem to be OK with the North's using force to deny the South's right of self determination regarding slavery, but you're not OK with its using force to keep the South in the Union.
    Last edited by Sonny Tufts; 10-06-2022 at 09:44 AM.
    We have long had death and taxes as the two standards of inevitability. But there are those who believe that death is the preferable of the two. "At least," as one man said, "there's one advantage about death; it doesn't get worse every time Congress meets."
    Erwin N. Griswold

    Taxes: Of life's two certainties, the only one for which you can get an automatic extension.
    Anonymous

  16. #224
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonny Tufts View Post
    How interesting. One of the standard responses to anarchists and the like who complain about government is "Well, if you don't like it here, why don't you leave?", to which the response is "Why should I leave? The government has no right to impose its will on me without my consent and negate my right of self-determination." You seem to be saying that the state government does have the right to force someone to leave if he doesn't like the state's law. Are you a tyrant?
    You seem to be having a great deal of trouble with the concept of a "voluntary association". Yes, that association can be terminated at either time, by either party.

    As long as both parties involved pursue a good faith negotiation to address any specific & legitimate damages caused by the termination of that association, there is nothing "tyrannical" about it.


    You have you history wrong. South Carolina fired the first shot against federal property.
    The Union had no right to be in Ft Sumpter. Invading was an act of war. If you want to make the claim "but it was federal land paid with federal dollars", that is a claim that can be easily pursued through negotiation. But obviously Lincoln had no interest in negotiating. Lincoln wanted war, and war is what he got.

    since the North would never allow slavery to continue, why would the Confederacy states wish to remain independent? You can generalize that: if a state secedes solely because it wants to impose a condition on its citizens that the rest of the country will not abide and uses force to prevent, why would the seceding state want to remain independent if it knows it can never impose that condition?
    It's pretty obvious that slavery was not the only issue that the south cared about, so this is a moot point.

    It's interesting that you seem to be OK with the North's using force to deny the South's right of self determination regarding slavery, but you're not OK with its using force to keep the South in the Union.
    "deny the South's right of self determination [ to hold other people as slaves ]" ???

    LOL the fact that you even think that's a valid point at all just goes to show how clearly $#@!ed up you are from an ethical standpoint.

    I have tried to give you every benefit of the doubt but I'm done arguing with you.

    You are obviously a psychopath and a tyrant, and I will do my best from this point forward to avoid engaging in any kind of discussion with you.

    And for the record this has nothing to do with your leftist views. Leftist views alone do not make one a tyrant.
    Last edited by TheTexan; 10-06-2022 at 12:10 PM.
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Crenshaw 2024!!!!

    My pronouns are he/him/his



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  18. #225
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTexan View Post
    It's pretty obvious that slavery was not the only issue that the south cared about, so this is a moot point.
    I suggest you read the secession declarations from the southern states.
    We have long had death and taxes as the two standards of inevitability. But there are those who believe that death is the preferable of the two. "At least," as one man said, "there's one advantage about death; it doesn't get worse every time Congress meets."
    Erwin N. Griswold

    Taxes: Of life's two certainties, the only one for which you can get an automatic extension.
    Anonymous

  19. #226
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonny Tufts View Post
    I suggest you read the secession declarations from the southern states.
    Ya sure ok buddy
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Crenshaw 2024!!!!

    My pronouns are he/him/his

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