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Thread: FBI 'raided' Mar-a-Lago

  1. #331
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    He did document it. He took the documents to his house.
    No, he took documents that didn't belong to him and didn't give some of them them up after being supoenaed. That sounds like theft, not declassification.

    Incidentally, the warrant covered unclassified material ("Any governmental and/or Presidential Records created between January 20, 2017 and January 20, 2021") as well as classified material.
    We have long had death and taxes as the two standards of inevitability. But there are those who believe that death is the preferable of the two. "At least," as one man said, "there's one advantage about death; it doesn't get worse every time Congress meets."
    Erwin N. Griswold

    Taxes: Of life's two certainties, the only one for which you can get an automatic extension.
    Anonymous



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  3. #332
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    He did document it. He took the documents to his house.
    Uh, you know, that isn't exactly what that word means...
    "Pity we didn't nominate Rand Paul--a man who actually has the Alpha Cojones to put his life on the line, but unfortunately lacks the bad taste necessary to brag about them."-- acptulsa

  4. #333
    If he did in fact declassify the docs, we could presumably get them though FOIA. I've always wondered what nuclear codes look like. It's probably like "super potato smash pumpkin alpha 3"
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Crenshaw 2024!!!!

    My pronouns are he/him/his

  5. #334
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonny Tufts View Post
    Has anyone seen any evidence that Trump declassified any of the records that were taken in the execution of the warrant?
    A president - ANY president - can declassify any document at any time, without permission from anyone, QED. Do you think that a president needs permission to declassify a document? From whom? And upon what basis should he receive such "permission"? He may request advice, but ultimately, the decision to declassify documents is his, and his alone.

    It's my understanding that Trump was subpoenaed last spring and some records were turned over to the National Archives. In June a Trump attorney told the DOJ that there were no more classified documents at Mar-a-Lago.
    This is false - Trump was advised in the spring that the documents in which he was of possession should be secured, and certain elements of the DOJ/FBI advised him as to how he should secure said documents. It is not in the least bit circumspect that an outgoing executive should carry with him some/many documents relevant to his administration, and that the possession of which would be coordinated with the relevant executive bureaucracies, which very much seems to be the circumstances in this case.

    I assume that subsequently the FBI or DOJ received information that this wasn't the case and that there were additional classified documents at the residence, thus prompting the search warrant.
    Well, I'm sorry. But you know what they say about "assume"...

    OK, you don't like "ultra high security". How about TS/SCI, which stands for Top Secret/Sensitive Compartmented Information?
    Irrelevant. See above.

    Please keep in mind that, based on my posting record here at RPF's, I am no ardent supporter of Trump. Feel free to search my posting history. I'm merely observing facts as I see them. I suggest you do the same, for the sake of your own integrity.

  6. #335
    Quote Originally Posted by 69360 View Post
    Simple answer is because Trump had hard copies.
    "Simple" is damned right. Digital is FAR worse that hard copies.

    How can you even make that argument? I expected better.

  7. #336
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonny Tufts View Post
    I'm a good enough lawyer to understand that when you declassify something you should document that decision in writing. That way nobody has to rely only on the word of someone with very little credibility, such as Trump.
    I'd like to see the CFR reference which codifies this requirement.



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  9. #337
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    Trump kept the documents at his home for 18 months.
    And not only was it known to DOJ/FBI, but they advised him as to how to keep said documents secured.

  10. #338
    Anybody else in awe of how much folks argue or even opine on things they know absolutely nothing about?

    Never mind that quip. Carry on with certainty
    Last edited by vita3; 08-16-2022 at 02:03 PM.

  11. #339
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonny Tufts View Post
    No, he took documents that didn't belong to him and didn't give some of them them up after being supoenaed. That sounds like theft, not declassification.

    Incidentally, the warrant covered unclassified material ("Any governmental and/or Presidential Records created between January 20, 2017 and January 20, 2021") as well as classified material.
    You're saying the quiet part out loud - this was clearly, unequivocally, a fishing expedition. ANY DOCUMENT between the beginning and end of his presidency?? That's as vague of a warrant as you can get, particularly for a former president and prospective challenger to the current regime.

    Can you not just be honest about this?

  12. #340
    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Banana View Post
    I doubt Biden's handlers would allow him to oversee so much as the flower arrangements in the Rose Garden. let alone taking down a former President.

    Apparently the same applied to Trump.
    There is nothing to fear from globalism, free trade and a single worldwide currency, but a globalism where free trade is competitively subsidized by each nation, a continuous trade war is dictated by the WTO, and the single currency is pure fiat, fear is justified. That type of globalism is destined to collapse into economic despair, inflationism and protectionism and managed by resurgent militant nationalism.
    Ron Paul
    Congressional Record (March 13, 2001)

  13. #341
    Quote Originally Posted by Invisible Man View Post
    Apparently the same applied to Trump.
    I disagree. I'm inclined to give Trump himself much more of the "credit" for his being such a disappointment.

    As for Biden, I'm not entirely confident he is even always aware that he is the President.
    Last edited by Occam's Banana; 08-16-2022 at 02:25 PM.

  14. #342
    Quote Originally Posted by A Son of Liberty View Post
    I'd like to see the CFR reference which codifies this requirement.
    I never said it was legally required. It's just smart to put it in writing so that there's no misunderstanding that declassification has in fact occurred.

    EDIT: See below for a statutory requirement (44 USC §2203).
    Last edited by Sonny Tufts; 08-16-2022 at 03:14 PM.
    We have long had death and taxes as the two standards of inevitability. But there are those who believe that death is the preferable of the two. "At least," as one man said, "there's one advantage about death; it doesn't get worse every time Congress meets."
    Erwin N. Griswold

    Taxes: Of life's two certainties, the only one for which you can get an automatic extension.
    Anonymous

  15. #343
    Quote Originally Posted by A Son of Liberty View Post
    ANY DOCUMENT between the beginning and end of his presidency?? That's as vague of a warrant as you can get, particularly for a former president and prospective challenger to the current regime.

    Can you not just be honest about this?
    There's an entire statute dealing with presidential records -- the Presidential Records Act of 1978, which defines "Presidential records" as:

    The term “Presidential records” means documentary materials, or any reasonably seg*regable portion thereof, created or received by the President, the President’s immediate staff, or a unit or individual of the Executive Office of the President whose function is to advise or assist the President, in the course of conducting activities which relate to or have an effect upon the carrying out of the constitutional, statutory, or other official or ceremonial duties of the President. Such term—

    (A)includes any documentary materials relating to the political activities of the President or members of the President’s staff, but only if such activities relate to or have a direct effect upon the carrying out of constitutional, statutory, or other official or ceremonial duties of the President; but

    (B)does not include any documentary materials that are (i) official records of an agency (as defined in section 552(e) [1] of title 5, United States Code); (ii) personal records; (iii) stocks of publications and stationery; or (iv) extra copies of documents produced only for convenience of reference, when such copies are clearly so identified.
    44 USC §2201(2)
    "Personal records" is defined as:

    The term “personal records” means all documentary materials, or any reasonably segregable portion therof,[2] of a purely private or nonpublic character which do not relate to or have an effect upon the carrying out of the constitutional, statutory, or other official or ceremonial duties of the President. Such term includes—

    (A)diaries, journals, or other personal notes serving as the functional equivalent of a diary or journal which are not prepared or utilized for, or circulated or communicated in the course of, transacting Government business;

    (B)materials relating to private political associations, and having no relation to or direct effect upon the carrying out of constitutional, statutory, or other official or ceremonial duties of the President; and

    (C)materials relating exclusively to the President’s own election to the office of the Presidency; and materials directly relating to the election of a particular individual or individuals to Federal, State, or local office, which have no relation to or direct effect upon the carrying out of constitutional, statutory, or other official or ceremonial duties of the President. 44 USC §2201(3)
    The Act further provides, "The United States shall reserve and retain complete ownership, possession, and control of Presidential records; and such records shall be administered in accordance with the provisions of this chapter." 44 USC §2202

    Here's an interesting tidbit from §2203:

    (a)Through the implementation of records management controls and other necessary actions, the President shall take all such steps as may be necessary to assure that the activities, deliberations, decisions, and policies that reflect the performance of the President’s constitutional, statutory, or other official or ceremonial duties are adequately documented and that such records are preserved and maintained as Presidential records pursuant to the requirements of this section and other provisions of law.
    "Adequately documented" -- gee, ya think that just might be referring to putting it in writing?
    We have long had death and taxes as the two standards of inevitability. But there are those who believe that death is the preferable of the two. "At least," as one man said, "there's one advantage about death; it doesn't get worse every time Congress meets."
    Erwin N. Griswold

    Taxes: Of life's two certainties, the only one for which you can get an automatic extension.
    Anonymous

  16. #344
    Quote Originally Posted by A Son of Liberty View Post
    I'd like to see the CFR reference which codifies this requirement.
    Here you go.

    https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov...ty-information

    Declassifying documents involves a lot more than just somebody who has the authority to declassify them deciding to treat them like they're not classified anymore without telling anyone they're going to do that.

    Unless Trump himself ever overrode this executive order. I'm pretty sure he didn't, or that fact would be an important aspect of this story. And if he chose not to, then that's on him.
    There is nothing to fear from globalism, free trade and a single worldwide currency, but a globalism where free trade is competitively subsidized by each nation, a continuous trade war is dictated by the WTO, and the single currency is pure fiat, fear is justified. That type of globalism is destined to collapse into economic despair, inflationism and protectionism and managed by resurgent militant nationalism.
    Ron Paul
    Congressional Record (March 13, 2001)



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  18. #345
    Quote Originally Posted by A Son of Liberty View Post
    "Simple" is damned right. Digital is FAR worse that hard copies.

    How can you even make that argument? I expected better.
    You misunderstand. Hard copies is easier to find and prove.

  19. #346
    Good grief, three pages of arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

    This is a politically motivated "hit".

    If there is nothing at all to prosecute in this, then they will move on to something else.

    Sooner or later, they'll find something and achieve their goal: keeping Trump legally off the ballot in 2024.

    Throwing him in jail for some manufactured crime is a whole lot easier than rigging yet another presidential election.
    "Truly, whoever can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." - Voltaire

  20. #347
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    Good grief, three pages of arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

    This is a politically motivated "hit".

    If there is nothing at all to prosecute in this, then they will move on to something else.

    Sooner or later, they'll find something and achieve their goal: keeping Trump legally off the ballot in 2024.

    Throwing him in jail for some manufactured crime is a whole lot easier than rigging yet another presidential election.
    From what I've heard, they say he couldn't be on the ballots.

    What if he told everybody to write him in?

  21. #348
    Since no one would know what was or was not in the boxes, I guess we will just have to take the FBI's word for it.

  22. #349
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    Uh, you know, that isn't exactly what that word means...
    My point was it was better than documentation, I was hoping somebody would try to deny that. If he had just written "Declassified" on the sides of the boxes with magic marker and stuck them in some random storage locker, you would have to figure out who did it. Did President Trump authorize it? Was it his handwriting? Was it Trump who had access to the storage locker? The questions go on and on.

    When the President takes classified documents TO HIS OWN HOUSE, then there is no question that the documents had been declassified, which he had the power to do. He can literally say it in his own head "These documents are now declassified" and not tell anybody and take them home. He is the sole authority on whether that occurred. If you ever want to know whether the documents were declassified, the only person who would know is Donald Trump.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  23. #350
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    When the President takes classified documents TO HIS OWN HOUSE, then there is no question that the documents had been declassified
    Are you saying that the mere act of a president treating the documents as if they are not classified is the same as declassifying them? You can't honestly believe this.

    Does Trump himself even claim that he declassified the documents?
    There is nothing to fear from globalism, free trade and a single worldwide currency, but a globalism where free trade is competitively subsidized by each nation, a continuous trade war is dictated by the WTO, and the single currency is pure fiat, fear is justified. That type of globalism is destined to collapse into economic despair, inflationism and protectionism and managed by resurgent militant nationalism.
    Ron Paul
    Congressional Record (March 13, 2001)

  24. #351
    Quote Originally Posted by Invisible Man View Post
    Are you saying that the mere act of a president treating the documents as if they are not classified is the same as declassifying them? You can't honestly believe this.

    Does Trump himself even claim that he declassified the documents?
    Yes, 100%, and yes, he did.

    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    Yes. He said himself he declassified them.

    When the President is negotiating with a foreign leader, let's say they are negotiating a nuclear weapons treaty.. he doesn't have to go through a "process" to declassify certain materials in the middle of the negotiation. The President has ultimate authority on what gets declassified. There is no higher authority on this matter.

    Some "lawyer" you are.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  25. #352
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    When the President is negotiating with a foreign leader, let's say they are negotiating a nuclear weapons treaty.. he doesn't have to go through a "process" to declassify certain materials in the middle of the negotiation.
    Why do you believe this?
    There is nothing to fear from globalism, free trade and a single worldwide currency, but a globalism where free trade is competitively subsidized by each nation, a continuous trade war is dictated by the WTO, and the single currency is pure fiat, fear is justified. That type of globalism is destined to collapse into economic despair, inflationism and protectionism and managed by resurgent militant nationalism.
    Ron Paul
    Congressional Record (March 13, 2001)



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  27. #353
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    Good grief, three pages of arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

    This is a politically motivated "hit".

    If there is nothing at all to prosecute in this, then they will move on to something else.

    Sooner or later, they'll find something and achieve their goal: keeping Trump legally off the ballot in 2024.

    Throwing him in jail for some manufactured crime is a whole lot easier than rigging yet another presidential election.
    But you have to reject the black-pill. The ominous "They". Always mentioned in hushed-tones. "They" could be sitting in the creepy white van across the street. "They" could gag&bag anybody anytime, anywhere. And so on and so forth. At some point, we have to choose sides and prepare to take this to the final limit. I'm on the side of the good and the true -- that means I'm on the side of Jesus. And I know I'm not the only one. By a long shot. The Beast system is literally baiting the book of Revelation. So be it. "They" know just as well as I do who wins that fight. Bring it on...
    Psalm 35:7-10, Psalm 109, Isaiah 13:9

  28. #354
    Quote Originally Posted by ClaytonB View Post
    But you have to reject the black-pill. The ominous "They". Always mentioned in hushed-tones. "They" could be sitting in the creepy white van across the street. "They" could gag&bag anybody anytime, anywhere. And so on and so forth. At some point, we have to choose sides and prepare to take this to the final limit. I'm on the side of the good and the true -- that means I'm on the side of Jesus. And I know I'm not the only one. By a long shot. The Beast system is literally baiting the book of Revelation. So be it. "They" know just as well as I do who wins that fight. Bring it on...
    One good thing that came out of Trump's presidency, is it's pretty clear now who "they" are. At least to me it's clear.
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Crenshaw 2024!!!!

    My pronouns are he/him/his

  29. #355
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTexan View Post
    One good thing that came out of Trump's presidency, is it's pretty clear now who "they" are. At least to me it's clear.
    White people?

  30. #356
    Quote Originally Posted by Invisible Man View Post
    White people?
    Close, but complete opposite
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Crenshaw 2024!!!!

    My pronouns are he/him/his

  31. #357
    Quote Originally Posted by Invisible Man View Post
    Why do you believe this?
    Because that is what the Constitution says?
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  32. #358
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    Because that is what the Constitution says?
    You are at your comedic best this evening.
    "Pity we didn't nominate Rand Paul--a man who actually has the Alpha Cojones to put his life on the line, but unfortunately lacks the bad taste necessary to brag about them."-- acptulsa

  33. #359
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    Because that is what the Constitution says?
    Can you quote the part you are referring to?
    There is nothing to fear from globalism, free trade and a single worldwide currency, but a globalism where free trade is competitively subsidized by each nation, a continuous trade war is dictated by the WTO, and the single currency is pure fiat, fear is justified. That type of globalism is destined to collapse into economic despair, inflationism and protectionism and managed by resurgent militant nationalism.
    Ron Paul
    Congressional Record (March 13, 2001)

  34. #360
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonny Tufts View Post
    There's an entire statute dealing with presidential records -- the Presidential Records Act of 1978, which defines "Presidential records" as:



    "Personal records" is defined as:



    The Act further provides, "The United States shall reserve and retain complete ownership, possession, and control of Presidential records; and such records shall be administered in accordance with the provisions of this chapter." 44 USC §2202

    Here's an interesting tidbit from §2203:



    "Adequately documented" -- gee, ya think that just might be referring to putting it in writing?
    And yet we again return to the unanswered question as to what differentiates HRC's crimes from DJT's. Thank you for citing chapter and verse, reverend. You still haven't answered the actual question, however.
    Last edited by A Son of Liberty; 08-16-2022 at 06:43 PM.



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