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Thread: EV drivers : Why You Might Not Be Pumped Over Privacy-Jolting Mileage Taxes

  1. #1

    EV drivers : Why You Might Not Be Pumped Over Privacy-Jolting Mileage Taxes

    Electric Car Drivers: Why You Might Not Be Pumped Over Privacy-Jolting Mileage Taxes

    https://www.realclearinvestigations....48307893223424

    The environmental impact of electric cars may still be unknown, but leaders are growing concerned about the threat they pose to the financing of the nation’s highway system. Because freeways and bridges are funded, in large part, through federal and state taxes on gasoline and diesel fuel, the battery-powered future will test whether roads can just be paved with good intentions.

    Lawmakers on both sides of the aisle are trying to devise new ways to raise that fuel tax revenue, which in fiscal year 2020 delivered $35 billion to the federal government and an additional $51 billion to state and local governments. But experts say that proposed fixes to the anticipated highway funding shortfall – involving charging drivers for the miles they travel by tracking their movement – pose a significant threat to personal privacy and liberty.

    The Infrastructure Investment and Jobs Act, passed with bipartisan support last year, authorized the Department of Transportation to launch new pilot programs to test ways to collect necessary fees. These include a range of high-tech means such as accessing location data from third-party on-vehicle diagnostic devices, smart phone applications, telemetric data collected by automakers, motor vehicle data obtained by car insurance companies, data obtained from fueling stations, and “any other method that the Secretary [of Transportation] considers appropriate.”

    “Location data” – that is, information about where people are and where they’ve been – “is highly sensitive,” said Lee Tien, legislative director at the Electronic Frontier Foundation, a nonprofit that defends civil liberties in cyberspace. It can reveal “what they do, who they’re with, where they worship, what medical procedures they’re having.”

    While the infrastructure act authorizes a pilot program to test collecting the personal information needed to charge drivers for their use of roads and highways, it doesn’t answer the far thornier questions about how to protect that data. Will only the feds track drivers? Will each state and locality that currently depends on fuel taxes also monitor drivers? If so, will the data be pooled? Will destinations be tracked along with mileage?

    These questions are arising as the Biden administration demands more energy-related data across the board as it seeks to achieve its ambitious climate change goals. The Securities and Exchange Commission, for example, wants almost all U.S. companies to tally and disclose the total amount of carbon emitted in producing their products. The Federal Highway Administration and the Department of Transportation proposed new regulations in July requiring states to measure carbon dioxide emissions “associated with transportation” and report those figures to the federal government. States will be required to establish emissions targets aligned with “national policy” established by Biden’s climate-related executive orders.

    Advocates of new highway user fees acknowledge the threat to privacy and promise to find ways to protect sensitive information. Asked about the risks posed by tracking vehicles, Rep. Sam Graves of Missouri, ranking Republican member of the House Committee on Transportation and Infrastructure, pointed to a previous statement: “For years, I have been talking about the need to eliminate the gas and diesel taxes. It’s time to move this solution toward reality, but in doing so, we must ensure that privacy concerns are addressed.”

    The Department of Transportation isn’t taking on these issues from scratch. For more than a decade, DOT has been awarding grants to states willing to work out the kinks in a pay-as-you-go system. Pilot programs have been funded in states such as Minnesota, Iowa, and Nevada. The Nevada Vehicle Miles Traveled Fee Study found “The greatest barrier to public acceptance is recognized as insuring driver privacy to the greatest extent allowed by available technology.”

    Asked by RealClearInvestigations about such concerns, a spokesman for the Department of Transportation said, "Privacy is of paramount importance and a requirement that has to be addressed in the pilot programs."

    Drivers have proved to be accepting of technologies that track travel when they offer obvious benefits, such as skipping toll booths or fighting crime. E-ZPass shares data with “law enforcement agencies conducting criminal investigations in accordance with subpoenas, court orders or amber alerts.”

    At Capitol Hill hearings last year, witnesses assured lawmakers that threats to privacy could be overcome. Peter J. Basso, chair of the Mileage-Based User Fee Alliance said, “The pilots are showing the technical viability of a mileage-based system,” and are showing how to address questions of “protection of personal privacy” and “data security.”

    But privacy experts such as Theodore Claypoole, an Atlanta lawyer who edits the “HeyDataData” blog, cautions that concerns might increase if such tracking becomes universal.

    He said a lot of people do understand they are less anonymous on the road than they used to be. Cars these days come default-set to gather and horde data on their drivers. What app doesn’t reveal its users’ geo-locations? Insurance companies place bugs in some cars to tell what kind of drivers we are. Every day we are stalked by the Billion-Byte Beast, and yet we remain relatively blasé about it. But gathering information on our driving for tax purposes is something different, says Claypoole. It’s the federal government, not businesses, hoovering up our sensitive information. Do we find this more frightening, or less so?

    Similarly, once it used to be difficult to collect comprehensive information about someone’s movements. It might take a team of field agents – the FBI has traditionally used five cars to tail a single suspect in an automobile. Surveillance used to have what privacy scholars call “high transaction costs.” Those costs served as a protection of one’s privacy.

    The Supreme Court has wrestled with the question of protecting privacy in an age of tracking devices, but hasn’t resolved what happens to one’s personal information when it is being lawfully collected. In a 2012 decision, United States v. Jones, the court considered whether police could place a GPS device on a suspect’s car without a warrant. The court ruled, 9-0, that such tracking was an unreasonable search that violated the Fourth Amendment of the Constitution.

    But that ruling did not settle the question of what the government could or couldn’t do with the same sort of information when it is, in essence, freely handed over. In a concurring opinion, Justice Sonia Sotomayor noted that the biggest threats to privacy may come from technologies that invite surveillance: “With increasing regularity, the Government will be capable of duplicating the monitoring undertaken in this case by enlisting factory- or owner-installed vehicle tracking devices or GPS-enabled smartphones.”

    It turns out that people are not as quick to give up freedoms as one might think. The Government Accountability Office published a report in January on the state-level user-fee pilot programs. The GAO wrote, “Many state DOT officials told us that drivers felt concerned that a government-administered mileage fee system may track their location and collect personal data.” They reported that “public acceptance of mileage fee systems remains limited by concerns about protecting privacy.”

    Recently, some abortion-rights activists worry that states with strict anti-abortion laws might prohibit travel to other states for the purpose of obtaining an abortion. (Missouri has already considered such a law.) Could vehicle tracking be used to identify individuals who cross a state border and drive to the address of an abortion provider?

    Privacy advocates suggest that activists may not want there to be digital tire tracks showing them driving to the sites of controversial political rallies such as on Jan. 6, 2021 in Washington.

    Convincing the public that the government will protect their privacy and won’t track their travel, the GAO found, made for “major challenges facing mileage fee systems.” Minnesota DOT officials were blunt about the lack of trust people have in the tech-enabled state: The “public does not want governments to have their travel or personal information.”

    Privacy advocates tell RCI that sooner or later highway funding will move to user fees – and probably sooner, given the effect electric vehicles will have on fuel tax revenues. And yet, for all the assurances made in pilot programs that privacy will be protected, the public remains unconvinced. Will the government have to change those attitudes, or will rules be made by bureaucrats? Will voters have a say in whether and how their travels are tracked? Or will they find that the decision has been made for them?
    “Civilizations die from suicide, not by murder.” - Arnold Toynbee



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  3. #2
    While the infrastructure act authorizes a pilot program to test collecting the personal information needed to charge drivers for their use of roads and highways, it doesn’t answer the far thornier questions about how to protect that data. Will only the feds track drivers? Will each state and locality that currently depends on fuel taxes also monitor drivers? If so, will the data be pooled? Will destinations be tracked along with mileage?
    There is only one guarantee, and that's that the data will be abused.
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
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    Proponent of real science.
    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  4. #3
    The thing is that most typical EV drivers don't mind being tracked by the government.

  5. #4
    EV drivers don't care. This will not deter them from driving their cars.
    "Perhaps one of the most important accomplishments of my administration is minding my own business."

    Calvin Coolidge

  6. #5
    I always thought if this were really about maintaining 'muh roads', it would be weight-based.

    Quote Originally Posted by 69360 View Post
    The thing is that most typical EV drivers don't mind being tracked by the government.
    This is true.
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    This is getting silly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    It started silly.
    T.S. Eliot's The Hollow Men

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    Quote Originally Posted by Philhelm
    I part ways with "libertarianism" when it transitions from ideology grounded in logic into self-defeating autism for the sake of ideological purity.

  7. #6
    Here they want to do it by logging your yearly mileage. At a mandatory yearly checkup. Which cars over 3 years have to do anyways and the km's are logged already.

    Of course, it would mean pulling people over randomly in order to check they do not roll back their clock. And of course a standard routine at any traffic stops that occur.

    But they will also make people pay for mileage done in OTHER COUNTRIES. While that may not be that relevant in the US. Just think what it would mean if you would live and have your vehicle registered in one state but do most of your business in other states. Oh and foreign cars still do not have to pay to drive our roads.

    It's a complete $#@!show where people will start demanding GPS beacons in order to not pay tax when they go to France for vacation in summer.
    "I am a bird"

  8. #7
    Jaguar I-Pace Car Catches on Fire While Charging, Burns to Bare Metal

    https://www.breitbart.com/tech/2022/...to-bare-metal/

    ALANA MASTRANGELO 3 Aug 2022



    An electric Jaguar I-Pace vehicle caught on fire and burned to ash in Florida, but the vehicle wasn’t in a car wreck like many notorious Tesla fires — it was simply charging in the owner’s garage.

    The electric car is the fourth known I-Pace battery fire that seemingly started on its own — a concerning amount of fires, given that there are so few of these vehicles on the road — according to a report by Electrek.

    The Florida-based electric car owner, Gonzalo Salazar, told the outlet that he had purchased a brand new 2019 Jaguar I-Pace in 2020, and was driving the vehicle without issues for a few years, until one day the car caught fire in his garage, after having been charging for the night.

    “On June 16, I plugged the car in before going to bed,” Salazar said. “In the morning of June 17, I woke up and unplugged the car. Later that morning, I set out to run some errands. I drove about 12 miles that morning before returning back home and parking the car back in the garage, leaving the garage door open.”

    “As I was doing things at home, I heard pops coming from the garage,” he added. “I decided to go see where the sounds were coming from, and upon walking into the garage, I faced a thick wall of smoke. My thought immediately was, ‘When there is smoke there is fire,’ and I need to get the car out of the house garage.”

    In an attempt to protect his home and pets, Salazar managed to move his smoking electric car out of his garage, to the street in front of his house.

    Salazar explained what happened next:

    I went back to the house to get my phone and also noticed that all the smoke in the garage now had filled my entire house because the A/C unit is right next to the garage door. While I was trying to ventilate my house from the smoke I called Jaguar roadside assistance to have them come get the car. When I ended the conversation with them there were more pops, but this time it was followed by fire from under the car. I then called 911 to come help with the situation. But this was not a slow burn, once the fire started there were multiple pops, and the car was just engulfed in flames rapidly.

    After the fire department extinguished the fire, Jaguar showed up and collected the remains of the vehicle. Salazar was not impressed, as he was left with having to clean up the debris on the street.

    “My insurance company sent a forensic specialist, did their investigation, and declared the car a total loss,” he told Electrek.

    Salazar added that Jaguar “is not being helpful at all,” and that the company claims it needs to “complete their own investigation.”

    “But because of the risk of igniting the fire once again, they are unable to find a place where they can lift the car up, therefore their ‘investigation’ is on hold, and they are not taking any responsibility for what happened,” Salazar added.

    Jaguar told Electrek that the company “is committed to our customers’ safety, and we are aware of this I-PACE incident in Boynton Beach, FL.”

    “We have been in contact with and are cooperating with the customer’s insurance company expert regarding a vehicle inspection,” Jaguar added. “JLRNA [Jaguar Land Rover North America, LLC] is unable to comment further on your questions until the investigation is completed.”

    Salazar’s Jaguar I-Pace is the latest electric vehicle to catch fire due to its battery.

    Last month, a battery fire caused an electric bus to burst into flames in Hamden, Connecticut. Luckily, no one died in the inferno, although two transit workers and two firefighters were hospitalized as a result of the blaze.
    “Civilizations die from suicide, not by murder.” - Arnold Toynbee

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by nobody's_hero View Post
    I always thought if this were really about maintaining 'muh roads', it would be weight-based.

    This is true.
    Yeah, weight is a huge factor in wear and tear on the road. The only “good” thing about a gas tax was that by it’s very nature it took into account weight. Heavier vehicle uses more gas, thus higher tax.
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul

    Proponent of real science.
    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    Yeah, weight is a huge factor in wear and tear on the road. The only “good” thing about a gas tax was that by it’s very nature it took into account weight. Heavier vehicle uses more gas, thus higher tax.
    You could simply put a kWh meter on a car that only tracks kWh's.

    I think the most ideal way to do this is as we do it here currently, you just pay a monthly fee to be able to drive your car. Unfortunately based also on fuel type, so I pay x3 for my diesel car... But otherwise it's just by weight. (I'm $#@!ed again there but at least I drive a nice car).

    I don't like all of it of course. But if the roads beed to be paid for, I think it would be fair to make the heavier user pay more... Toll highways would be one solution. IDK, pay a monthly fee for local roads and toll on highways. Then no privacy needs to be lost.
    "I am a bird"

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by luctor-et-emergo View Post
    You could simply put a kWh meter on a car that only tracks kWh's.

    I think the most ideal way to do this is as we do it here currently, you just pay a monthly fee to be able to drive your car. Unfortunately based also on fuel type, so I pay x3 for my diesel car... But otherwise it's just by weight. (I'm $#@!ed again there but at least I drive a nice car).

    I don't like all of it of course. But if the roads beed to be paid for, I think it would be fair to make the heavier user pay more... Toll highways would be one solution. IDK, pay a monthly fee for local roads and toll on highways. Then no privacy needs to be lost.
    Yeah, I don't think that's ideal at all.

    I agree that you want to know the weight of the vehicle and the miles traveled on the roads to determine how much someone should pay for the wear and tear.

    Taxing fuel doesn't get you there. Every vehicle has different efficiencies and more and more are using different fuels. If you tax the fuel, you are constantly setting up a battle between fuel types and putting government in the position of ALWAYS picking winners and losers.

    In my mind, the best way to do this is for people to report their mileage on a yearly basis. Some states require annual inspections - others require registration renewals. Use established processes to report mileage and vehicle type. Calculate the tax burden based on the weight of the vehicle (+ an average payload) X the mileage. No tracking. (either through the vehicle or toll scanners) No battle of fuel types. No cost-shifting to other taxpayers who may rarely drive on the roads. Simple and fair. (BTW, I'm involved with policymakers in these discussions, so I'd appreciate if anyone sees issues with this approach.)

    The problem I'm dealing with is that most states really want the road tax to be hidden. They don't want people knowing how much they're paying in taxes to fund their projects. My solution offers transparency for the taxpayer - they don't really like that.
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    Yeah, I don't think that's ideal at all.

    I agree that you want to know the weight of the vehicle and the miles traveled on the roads to determine how much someone should pay for the wear and tear.

    Taxing fuel doesn't get you there. Every vehicle has different efficiencies and more and more are using different fuels. If you tax the fuel, you are constantly setting up a battle between fuel types and putting government in the position of ALWAYS picking winners and losers.

    In my mind, the best way to do this is for people to report their mileage on a yearly basis. Some states require annual inspections - others require registration renewals. Use established processes to report mileage and vehicle type. Calculate the tax burden based on the weight of the vehicle (+ an average payload) X the mileage. No tracking. (either through the vehicle or toll scanners) No battle of fuel types. No cost-shifting to other taxpayers who may rarely drive on the roads. Simple and fair. (BTW, I'm involved with policymakers in these discussions, so I'd appreciate if anyone sees issues with this approach.)

    The problem I'm dealing with is that most states really want the road tax to be hidden. They don't want people knowing how much they're paying in taxes to fund their projects. My solution offers transparency for the taxpayer - they don't really like that.
    First hole in this and I'll try to find more is, people who live in rural area's but will have to pay a lot for driving to the store on badly maintained roads.
    "I am a bird"

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by luctor-et-emergo View Post
    First hole in this and I'll try to find more is, people who live in rural area's but will have to pay a lot for driving to the store on badly maintained roads.
    Well, that's a matter of where the dollars are spent, I think, more than how they're gathered. Unless, you're referring to the distance we have to travel. In which case, it doesn't matter if you tax fuel or mileage, people who have to travel further will always have to pay more.
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire



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