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Thread: Rand Paul "neutral" on admitting Sweden and Finland to NATO

  1. #1

    Rand Paul "neutral" on admitting Sweden and Finland to NATO

    Rand Paul

    The U.S. Senate will likely vote this summer on admitting Sweden and Finland to NATO. Prior to Putin’s invasion of Ukraine, I have been an automatic “no” on expanding NATO to Russia’s borders. I have seen such expansion as needless provocation.

    But Putin’s invasion of Ukraine has changed the world and a realistic view of foreign policy changes as the world does. In this new world, I am less adamant about preventing NATO’s expansion with Sweden and Finland.

    More at: https://www.theamericanconservative....n-and-finland/

    Ron must be so proud.
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  3. #2
    I'm a little disappointed in Rand Paul for not opposing NATO, but he did throw in a key phrase that's important.

    ...

    But Putin’s invasion of Ukraine has changed the world and a realistic view of foreign policy changes as the world does. In this new world, I am less adamant about preventing NATO’s expansion with Sweden and Finland.

    In the coming days I will propose conditions to the treaty stating that Article 5 does not supersede the constitutional requirement that Congress declare war before engaging in hostilities, and that the U.S. will not bear any costs caused by the addition of Sweden and Finland to NATO.

    ...

    SOURCE:
    The American Conservative Op-Ed: Dr. Rand Paul: Should NATO Admit Sweden and Finland?
    https://www.paul.senate.gov/american...en-and-finland
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  4. #3
    Rand's foreign policy positions are not very good lately.
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
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  5. #4
    "In the coming days I will propose conditions to the treaty stating that Article 5 does not supersede the constitutional requirement that Congress declare war before engaging in hostilities, and that the U.S. will not bear any costs caused by the addition of Sweden and Finland to NATO."

    Next time, read the article you linked before throwing Rand under the bus.

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by WisconsinLiberty View Post
    I'm a little disappointed in Rand Paul for not opposing NATO, but he did throw in a key phrase that's important.

    ...

    But Putin’s invasion of Ukraine has changed the world and a realistic view of foreign policy changes as the world does. In this new world, I am less adamant about preventing NATO’s expansion with Sweden and Finland.

    In the coming days I will propose conditions to the treaty stating that Article 5 does not supersede the constitutional requirement that Congress declare war before engaging in hostilities, and that the U.S. will not bear any costs caused by the addition of Sweden and Finland to NATO.

    ...

    SOURCE:
    The American Conservative Op-Ed: Dr. Rand Paul: Should NATO Admit Sweden and Finland?
    https://www.paul.senate.gov/american...en-and-finland
    Remember it's 3D chess when Donald "I love big government" Trump does it but when Rand does it, he hates the Constitution.

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTexan View Post
    Rand's foreign policy positions are not very good lately.
    Because unlike Trump and the rest of the sellouts, Rand wants to follow the Constitution?

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by tebowlives View Post
    Because unlike Trump and the rest of the sellouts, Rand wants to follow the Constitution?
    If it was purely about following the Constitution, Rand would say it's none of our business what Finland and Sweden does and otherwise keep his opinions about Russia to himself. (Ron's position on Ukraine, basically)

    But Rand has chosen to take an active position to label Putin as the aggressor in this conflict, which is both an entirely false and dangerous position to take, and pushes us closer to WW III.
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Crenshaw 2024!!!!

    My pronouns are he/him/his

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTexan View Post
    If it was purely about following the Constitution, Rand would say it's none of our business and otherwise keep his opinions to himself. (Ron's position on Ukraine, basically)
    Why don't you think Rand wants us out of NATO anymore?
    Do you see that plate of crap with the side of toast? Rands responsible for the side of toast.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTexan View Post
    But Rand has chosen to take an active position to label Putin as the aggressor in this conflict, which is both an entirely false and dangerous position to take, and pushes us closer to WW III.
    Ohh an "active" position. Well then...

    Because it's not considered aggressive when Putin attacked Ukraine?

    WW3? Really? You get that from Michele Bachmanns playbook?



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  11. #9
    Rand is pathetic here and has abandoned his principles most likely because he was told to do so by the GOP leadership, or he would be punished by having a scandal arise that would ultimately remove him from his Senate seat.

    Russia is just the scapegoat rationale, like it is for almost every other thing right now, inflation, gas prices, supply chain, etc. Sad he has used the exact same scapegoat that literally every other neocon, RINO, and globalist Dem has been using for 6 years now. We don't need NATO and should have nothing to do with it, which should be his response to this, just like his father.

    If Ron took this approach, it would be absolutely unacceptable and contradictory, and many of us would be unhappy. He warned us for years about the dangers of entangling alliances. His son should be held accountable by the liberty movement and Ron Paul supporters, and thus far I am barely hearing a peep.

  12. #10
    My position is neutral on them joining as well because I think the US should leave NATO. It's past it's usefulness date. Putin has already stated that Russia doesn't oppose them joining so this will not lead to any new conflict if the US has to remain a member.

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by tebowlives View Post
    "In the coming days I will propose conditions to the treaty stating that Article 5 does not supersede the constitutional requirement that Congress declare war before engaging in hostilities, and that the U.S. will not bear any costs caused by the addition of Sweden and Finland to NATO."

    Next time, read the article you linked before throwing Rand under the bus.
    I did.
    His proposed conditions will be ignored and he knows it.
    His vote will make almost as little difference as his proposed conditions but that doesn't mean he should not vote no.
    The worst thing he is doing is not even voting present, the worst thing is taking the anti-Russia, pro-Ukraine, interventionist position rhetorically.
    If either side is less bad and less wrong it is Russia and we should be looking to leave NATO not to expand the number of nations we are obligated to defend.
    Russia is not our enemy and Ukraine has committed crimes against us in collusion with Biden and his friends.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
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  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by tebowlives View Post
    Remember it's 3D chess when Donald "I love big government" Trump does it but when Rand does it, he hates the Constitution.
    Trump didn't expand NATO and even threatened to leave it.
    Trump also is not a doctrinaire noninterventionist who was betraying his principles and promises when he did or said anything close to this.

    And I would oppose Trump saying anything like this.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    I did.
    His proposed conditions will be ignored and he knows it.
    His vote will make almost as little difference as his proposed conditions but that doesn't mean he should not vote no.
    The worst thing he is doing is not even voting present, the worst thing is taking the anti-Russia, pro-Ukraine, interventionist position rhetorically.
    If either side is less bad and less wrong it is Russia and we should be looking to leave NATO not to expand the number of nations we are obligated to defend.
    Russia is not our enemy and Ukraine has committed crimes against us in collusion with Biden and his friends.
    How do you know which way he is voting?
    His proposed conditions for not giving Ukraine money were ignored too. Do you have a point?
    Show proof he's taking the anti-Russia, pro-Ukraine, interventionist position stance.
    Last edited by tebowlives; 07-16-2022 at 04:40 AM.

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Trump didn't expand NATO and even threatened to leave it.
    Trump also is not a doctrinaire noninterventionist who was betraying his principles and promises when he did or said anything close to this.

    And I would oppose Trump saying anything like this.
    Oh he threatened to leave, well then. That is something. Is that like how Reagan threatened to cut spending?

    You oppose Rand saying, "lets have a conversation"? How in the world is he betraying his principles by making it about the Constitution?

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Champ View Post
    Rand is pathetic here and has abandoned his principles most likely because he was told to do so by the GOP leadership, or he would be punished by having a scandal arise that would ultimately remove him from his Senate seat.
    Prove this or STFU. So every time he has opposed leadership they haven't done that to him but this time they will?

    Quote Originally Posted by Champ View Post
    Russia is just the scapegoat rationale, like it is for almost every other thing right now, inflation, gas prices, supply chain, etc. Sad he has used the exact same scapegoat that literally every other neocon, RINO, and globalist Dem has been using for 6 years now. We don't need NATO and should have nothing to do with it, which should be his response to this, just like his father.
    or he could engage in a conversation and make it about the Constitution.

    Quote Originally Posted by Champ View Post
    If Ron took this approach, it would be absolutely unacceptable and contradictory, and many of us would be unhappy. He warned us for years about the dangers of entangling alliances. His son should be held accountable by the liberty movement and Ron Paul supporters, and thus far I am barely hearing a peep.
    because he wants to have a conversation and make it about he Constitution?
    Last edited by tebowlives; 07-16-2022 at 04:41 AM.

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by tebowlives View Post
    What proof do you have he bought the medias bs on Putin, you drama queen?
    He tweeted the below in May. Shows that he bought the media bs in wholesale quantities.

    "
    While I sympathize with the people of Ukraine, and commend their fight against Putin"
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTexan View Post
    He tweeted the below in May. Shows that he bought the media bs in wholesale quantities.

    "
    While I sympathize with the people of Ukraine, and commend their fight against Putin"
    rest of the quote - "we cannot continue to spend money we don’t have. Passing this bill brings the total we’ve sent to Ukraine to nearly $54 billion over the course of two months."
    Were you expecting Rand to say Ukraine should have just rolled over and not fight? People shouldn't defend themselves? You're seeing too much into this imo.

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by tebowlives View Post
    rest of the quote - "we cannot continue to spend money we don’t have. Passing this bill brings the total we’ve sent to Ukraine to nearly $54 billion over the course of two months."
    Were you expecting Rand to say Ukraine should have just rolled over and not fight? People shouldn't defend themselves? You're seeing too much into this imo.
    The beauty of libertarian positions is that you usually arrive at the correct actions, even when youre wrong about everything else.

    Rand has arrived at the right conclusion - we should stay put of this, stay out of NATO, definitely not send them weapons. All good.

    But at the same time he is taking an unnecessary pro-Ukraine and anti-Putin position.

    He's clearly not informed on this conflict, as there is nothing "commendable" about Ukraine's fight against Putin. He has also said there is "no justification" for Putins invasion.

    The reason why I even bring this up, is because basically 99% of people have bought into the left's bulll$#@! about Putin being the aggressor in this conflict. It simply is not true, and that realization, if communicated by someone could at the very least provide some foundation to improve relations with Russia. And if Rand, Massie, and other libertarians wont be this communicator, then who will?

    When you're taking the same opinion as George Soros, maybe it's time to reevaluate..
    Last edited by TheTexan; 07-16-2022 at 05:40 AM.
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Crenshaw 2024!!!!

    My pronouns are he/him/his

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTexan View Post
    The beauty of libertarian positions is that you usually arrive at the correct actions, even when youre wrong about everything else.

    Rand has arrived at the right conclusion - we should stay put of this, stay out of NATO, definitely not send them weapons. All good.

    But at the same time he is taking an unnecessary pro-Ukraine and anti-Putin position.

    He's clearly not informed on this conflict, as there is nothing "commendable" about Ukraine's fight against Putin.

    The reason why I even bring this up, is because basically 99% of people have bought into the left's bulll$#@! about Putin being the aggressor in this conflict. It simply is not true, and that realization, if communicated by someone could at the very least provide some foundation to improve relations with Russia. And if Rand, Massie, and other libertarians wont be this communicator, then who will?
    It is commendable of Ukraine to protect their own borders. I don't recall Ukraine goose stepping into Russia and firing shots.

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by tebowlives View Post
    It is commendable of Ukraine to protect their own borders. I don't recall Ukraine goose stepping into Russia and firing shots.
    Well the thing is, Ukraine isn't protecting their borders. It ceased to be their borders when DPR and LPR seceded from Ukraine.

    It even further ceased to be their borders when they began shelling innocent people in DPR and LPR for simply being ethnically Russian.

    If you want to use "commendable" and "Ukraine" in the same sentence, it comes with an epic $#@!load of nuance, as the vast majority of Ukrainians fighting this war are civilian murdering $#@!bags if not outright nazis. Rand Paul has not demonstrated that he understands this conflict to any significant degree, so when he says "commendable Ukraine" its safe to assume he's lacking the necessary nuance.

    For people who understand this conflict, " commendable" is basically the last way you would describe the Ukrainians. The Ukrainians aren't defending their homeland, they are defending their right to continue the systematic genocide of innocent people.
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Crenshaw 2024!!!!

    My pronouns are he/him/his

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by tebowlives View Post
    How do you know which way he is voting?
    His proposed conditions for not giving Ukraine money were ignored too. Do you have a point?
    Show proof he's taking the anti-Russia, pro-Ukraine, interventionist position stance.
    Read the article before commenting:

    'I have shifted from being against their admittance to NATO to neutral on the question, and will as a consequence vote “present.”'
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  25. #22
    I've deleted over a dozen posts in this thread for gratuitous insults and name-calling.

    Disagree as vehemently as you like, but please remain civil.

    If it happens again, I will start issuing infractions.
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  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Banana View Post
    I've deleted over a dozen posts in this thread for gratuitous insults and name-calling.

    Disagree as vehemently as you like, but please remain civil.

    If it happens again, I will start issuing infractions.
    It's a shame those posts are lost to history though. Some of tebow's insults were really good.
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Crenshaw 2024!!!!

    My pronouns are he/him/his

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTexan View Post
    It's a shame those posts are lost to history though.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WChTqYlDjtI


    Quote Originally Posted by TheTexan View Post
    Some of tebow's insults were really good.
    You seemed to be giving as good as you got.



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Read the article before commenting:

    'I have shifted from being against their admittance to NATO to neutral on the question, and will as a consequence vote “present.”'
    Read Rands point before commenting. Even though you have continued to ignore Rands entire point, I will continue to point it out because that is what matters.
    Again -
    "In the coming days I will propose conditions to the treaty stating that Article 5 does not supersede the constitutional requirement that Congress declare war before engaging in hostilities, and that the U.S. will not bear any costs caused by the addition of Sweden and Finland to NATO."

    If you want to ignore the fact that he wants Congress to declare war, which they won't, that's on you.

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTexan View Post
    Well the thing is, Ukraine isn't protecting their borders. It ceased to be their borders when DPR and LPR seceded from Ukraine.

    It even further ceased to be their borders when they began shelling innocent people in DPR and LPR for simply being ethnically Russian.

    If you want to use "commendable" and "Ukraine" in the same sentence, it comes with an epic $#@!load of nuance, as the vast majority of Ukrainians fighting this war are civilian murdering $#@!bags if not outright nazis. Rand Paul has not demonstrated that he understands this conflict to any significant degree, so when he says "commendable Ukraine" its safe to assume he's lacking the necessary nuance.

    For people who understand this conflict, " commendable" is basically the last way you would describe the Ukrainians. The Ukrainians aren't defending their homeland, they are defending their right to continue the systematic genocide of innocent people.
    It's not your call on where the borders are. Right now they are part of Ukraine. They can fight their way out but for now they are Ukraine. If they form their own country, maybe they can join NATO.
    Last edited by tebowlives; 07-17-2022 at 06:08 AM.

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by tebowlives View Post
    It's not your call on where the borders are. Right now they are part of Ukraine. They can fight their way out but for now they are Ukraine. If they form their own country, maybe they can join NATO.
    Well, according to your own definition from a deleted post, large parts of eastern "Ukraine" are actually now "Russia" because Russia has secured the territory and Ukraine is not getting it back. All of the LPR oblasts are now in full Russian control. (DPR oblasts are still in progress)

    Either way, you're missing the point. Russia isn't the aggressor in this conflict and anyone who does think so is either 1) misinformed, or 2) does not respect the right to self determination.

    I'd much rather believe that Rand is misinformed, than does not respect the right to self determination.
    Last edited by TheTexan; 07-17-2022 at 07:40 AM.
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Crenshaw 2024!!!!

    My pronouns are he/him/his

  32. #28
    The below is an argument between Rand and Blinken, where it's actually Blinken promoting the "right to self determination" (0:35). Which is just hilariously ironic in so many ways.

    Either way, this Rand/Blinken argument is just pathetic. It's a debate with zero of actual substance and proves that neither one knows what they are talking about.



    @3:25 the blonde chick gets closest to the truth, when she says "Russia was not actually just concerned about Ukraine joining NATO, Russia just didnt want Ukraine to be a sovereign independent nation at all"
    Last edited by TheTexan; 07-17-2022 at 07:59 AM.
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Crenshaw 2024!!!!

    My pronouns are he/him/his

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTexan View Post
    Well, according to your own definition from a deleted post, large parts of eastern "Ukraine" are actually now "Russia" because Russia has secured the territory and Ukraine is not getting it back. All of the LPR oblasts are now in full Russian control. (DPR oblasts are still in progress)
    Don't misrepresent what I've posted while you deflect away from Rands point which is about applying the Constitution.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTexan View Post
    Either way, you're missing the point. Russia isn't the aggressor in this conflict and anyone who does think so is either 1) misinformed, or 2) does not respect the right to self determination.
    You're missing the entire point while deflecting elsewhere. It's about Rands stance on having a discussion based on the Constitution.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTexan View Post
    I'd much rather believe that Rand is misinformed, than does not respect the right to self determination.
    Because you don't care what Rand is emphasizing which is strange since he's obviously making it about the Constitution. That you continue to ignore that and not address it, is telling. Deflect away.

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by tebowlives View Post
    Don't misrepresent what I've posted while you deflect away from Rands point which is about applying the Constitution.

    You're missing the entire point while deflecting elsewhere. It's about Rands stance on having a discussion based on the Constitution.

    Because you don't care what Rand is emphasizing which is strange since he's obviously making it about the Constitution. That you continue to ignore that and not address it, is telling. Deflect away.
    You're right, I dont care about Rand following the constitution. When it comes to Rand, that's the baseline I've come to expect, and even here, he does not disappoint on that issue.

    It's not "unconstitutional" for him to say that Ukraine's fight against Putin is "commendable" nor is it "unconstitutional" for him to say that he "supports Ukraine's cause", but that doesn't mean its not both ignorant and idiotic to say such things.

    It is possible to be "constitutional" and ignorant at the same time and unfortunately Rand is proving that. As I've posted elsewhere, this isn't intended to be a dig on Rand, as nearly every other libertarian is as ignorant as he is on this issue.
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Crenshaw 2024!!!!

    My pronouns are he/him/his

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