So why not secede?

[Matt Collins]

If you say so lol.

Let's chat again 4 years from now and see how much "winning" we have accomplished.

Yes and no. Freedom is winning on some issues, and losing on others.

[Matt Collins]

What you're describing are the symptoms of a forced union. The states have not been allowed to differentiate themselves, and have become largely homogenous in law, culture, and politics.

However this was not and is not sustainable, because we are not homogenous.

Like a jar of oil and vinegar, even if you mix it up, it will eventually separate.

The Left is becoming more and more extreme, and as a result, the Right is pushing back.

This is plainly visible for example in Texas.

In Texas there is a resurgence of right-wing energy, fueled mostly by a hatred of the Left, and Texas republicans are taking steps to solidify Texas as a right-wing state.

Just look at Texas's legislative priorities for the next session:

- Protect our Elections
- Ban Democrat Chairs
- Abolish Abortion in Texas
- Stop Sexualizing Texas Kids
- Ban Gender Modification of Children
- Secure the Border and Protect Texans
- Parental Rights and Educational Freedom
- Defend Our Gun Rights

Every single one of those is designed to drive a wedge between the Left and the Right.

If Texas successfully capitalizes on this energy, Texas will be fortified as a conservative state.

Except for the influx of lefties into Houston, Dallas, Austin, San Antonio, and El Paso.

And remember, just because a legislature is red (like Florida) doesn't mean that the state will go red in a Presidential or US Senate election. The gerrymandering of state legislatures is very entrenched and has been for a while. Look at the ratios of both FL and TX, and then look at their % of the previous few Presidential elections, and you'll see it isn't exactly the same.

It's a self-reinforcing cycle. The more conservative Texas becomes, the more liberals will leave the state, the more conservatives will migrate to the state, and Texas becomes even more conservative.

Yes, kind of.... This is why DeSantis started his hard right messaging (as soon as he saw it was politically safe to). He scared away a lot of Yank libs that were planning to move down to FL exactly as you described. But again, he just slowed the change, for now, Florida is still purple statewide. It'll remain red for 2 elections, but after that there is a very good chance it goes blue.

This is the way the states were intended to work.

But Lincoln $#@!ed it up.

I don't like Lincoln either, but I'm not exactly sure how he caused the urban vs non-urban divide?

We can either correct it now, and secede.

Or we can choose not to, and destine this country to increasingly unimaginable suffering that we have only begun to witness.

Well unless the federal government disintegrates, secession isn't really an option anytime in the foreseeable future. They don't just let you leave. Having a truly independent Governor practically doesn't exist. As good as DeSantis is for example he still plays the political game. Not to mention, most people, even conservatives, do not support secession unfortunately.

[TheTexan]

I don't know that I believe this. I mean it would be nice if it were true, but urban areas attract people who like big government by their very nature. Can you show me an example?

Hong Kong, until China took it back a few years ago

[TheTexan]

I don't like Lincoln either, but I'm not exactly sure how he caused the urban vs non-urban divide?

Lincoln (and Jackson) made secession illegal. Without secession (or at least, the threat of secession), the states lost their power to differentiate. The states were put in a position where they were told "do what we [Fed Gov] tell you to do, or we will come down there and murder your families". This threat extended not just to secession but to nullification as well.

It's only until a couple decades ago that states started to grow their balls back and begin nullifying, but the damage of 150 years of Fed-enforced uniformity had already done its damage: the states had become nearly homogenous. Any legislative differences between the states were almost entirely superficial at best - all the main rules had already been decided at the federal level.

As to your question - how did this cause the urban vs non-urban divide. I would say it didn't cause the urban vs non-urban divide. That divide is always going to exist by the nature of cities vs rural. But what it did cause, is the homogeneity of cities across the country.

When every state is the same, then it's not unexpected, that all the cities are going to be the same.

If it weren't for Lincoln/Jackson, then Texas would be a much different place than it is today. Texas would be much more conservative, and likewise the cities in Texas would be much more conservative. The cities in Texas would still be liberal $#@!holes relative to the rural areas of Texas, but the cities in Texas would still be much more conservative than the cities in California. (Which as you've pointed out is really not the case today)

[TheTexan]

Well unless the federal government disintegrates, secession isn't really an option anytime in the foreseeable future. They don't just let you leave.

Until secession and nullification is re-normalized, meaning - people aren't $#@!ting their pants at the thought of Fed Gov invading them if they secede/nullify -

Nothing Will Change.

Not to mention, most people, even conservatives, do not support secession unfortunately.

Correct, but that number is growing, and fairly rapidly over the past 10 years or so. And one reason for the lack of support is people don't even consider it as an option (because the ghost of Lincoln will kill their children if they think about it). If the right leader grew some balls - and that's probably not DeSantis, and its definitely not Abbott - then I think a lot of people would be inspired to grow their balls back and reclaim their sovereignty.

[TheTexan]

As an example of the damage that Lincoln and Jackson have done:

Texas passed a law "nullifying" silencer bans last year, but it hasn't changed a god damn thing. Why? Everyone in Texas is still waiting for permission from the federal government to "approve" of the nullification.

It's $#@!ing retarded and until we grow our balls back and stop begging the Fed Gov for permission,

nothing will change

Until we as people stop being afraid of big daddy Lincoln killing us in our sleep if we choose to disobey him,

nothing will change

[TheTexan]

Yes, kind of.... This is why DeSantis started his hard right messaging (as soon as he saw it was politically safe to). He scared away a lot of Yank libs that were planning to move down to FL exactly as you described. But again, he just slowed the change, for now, Florida is still purple statewide. It'll remain red for 2 elections, but after that there is a very good chance it goes blue.

I think you might be surprised.

It all hinges on whether or not this recent trend of nullification continues to grow. I'm seeing the signs of people starting to grow their balls back (Jan 6 is one example) and if that trend continues, we might see some actually meaningful nullifications start to happen. If that happens, the "differentiation" that I've referred to earlier in this thread, will begin to occur, and Florida will never be blue again in our lifetimes.

If I'm wrong, and nullifications don't happen, the "Red wave" will hit a barrier, and as you say, just roll back into the ocean.

[Matt Collins]

As an example of the damage that Lincoln and Jackson have done:

Texas passed a law "nullifying" silencer bans last year, but it hasn't changed a god damn thing. Why? Everyone in Texas is still waiting for permission from the federal government to "approve" of the nullification.

It's $#@!ing retarded and until we grow our balls back and stop begging the Fed Gov for permission,

Yes, that is due to the lawyers and weak politicians. Lawyers are now trained in the legal hierarchy and that the SCOTUS is the end all be all to every legal question (it isn't). And the weak politicians listen to the lawyers.

Why bother suing the federal government in federal court? That is asinine and nearly always a foregone conclusion. You are absolutely correct.

Sadly most of the nullification laws that have been passed simply prevent state government officials from assisting the feds in enforcing specific federal laws. Interposition laws are whats needed. But there are very few with the spine to push that into law, not to mention actually enforce it.

Lots of it has to do with the power the feds have over money really. It is impossible to compete against an unlimited money machine.

As I've maintained for years, if the US ever has a currency crisis, that will be the time when regional balkanization will be the most opportune. At that point the feds will have a lot less control over state governments if their currency is worthless.

Until we as people stop being afraid of big daddy Lincoln killing us in our sleep if we choose to disobey him,

nothing will change

Big Daddy Lincoln WILL kill us in our sleep if we choose to disobey him. He has already proven this multiple times over.

[osan]

Secession is not the answer, at least not under current circumstances. We live in an eon of superorganisms. We shall remain in that era into the foreseeable future, barring cultural collapse. Sufficient advances in technology may one day free the individual from the tyrannies of the mob, but until that day arrives, being part of a feudal group is the best hope any man has of remaining minimally enslaved by his fellows. This is a sad truth, but true it remains in any event.

The most practical solution under these circumstances of humanity's persistent state of technical and moral barbarism is to clean up the extant order of superorganization in America to the greatest extent possible. Were we to do that, our lives would improve by orders of magnitude, even with the progressives whining and howling about it every step of the way.

Add Amendment XXVIII to the Constitution and enforce it with grim intent and indefatigable tenacity, and life would be transformed in miraculous ways in the direction of freedom. Those who assume the mantle of the public trust must be held to stern account for their every action, down to how they wipe their backsides, or all is lost. We see how non-accountability has worked out for humanity as a whole. It has produced and tolerated the Stalins and Maos, with hundreds of millions butchered pursuant to whatever the agenda of demented evil-du-jour might be. It is because we allow it. Kill the tyrants, destroy their families and see how rapidly the synthetic horrors of the Tyrant disappear from the earth.

None of us will see a time where a single man will be able to live as a wholly sovereign unit, but there is nothing to stop us from instilling wild terror into the hearts of those who would claim to serve the common good in an official capacity. Let them and their families live in the endless apprehension that they might even in the least measure disturb the rights of free men. Let them step up, serve a short tenure, and as rapidly as possible remove themselves from their positions of special trust for the fear that would live with them during that time. Let that terror weed out the false servants whose deeper desire would be to rule.

Butcher violators and render to wrack and ruin their families until within the culture the common mindset of a coyote seeking corrupt advantage stamps itself from existence in all but the rarest cases, those few remaining being readily treated with goodly made hemp rope and widely televised publicity. Leave the abjectly miserable dregs of their families as testament of that to which all may look forward when the public trust is violated in so much as the least degree. There is nothing less - nothing more kindly, that such people will understand and respect. Physical destruction must remain the reward for all who abuse their positions of special trust.

Make that one meager, yet fundamental change, and watch a new world arise from the ashes of our current and headlong arc into annihilation.

There is no other solution because humans are what they are. Gentleness and reason have no place in such affairs, but only brute and heartless force against all who trespass. Anything short of this is a cop-out; a sell-out; a mark of corrupted hearts and minds, and the guarantee of our ultimate failure as a species. Tyrants must be killed and their genetic lines severed, lest we suffer perpetually the slings and arrows of tyrannical outrage.

Kill Themme. Kill all of Themme. Kill Themme without hesitation, compunction, or the least shred of mercy for their plights which so suddenly take on the human cast from that of the haughty "authority" when they are caught and taken to task for their crimes of barking orders at you as if you were a dog to be beaten or even destroyed in accord with his whim. Kill Themme swiftly and with clinical cold, giving them nothing human as they meet their grim and sticky ends. Let the entire world witness what you do, for there is to be no shame in it. Let the message and the lesson there be grim, clear, and devoid of all equivocation in terms of consequence. Let every man know what awaits him if he chooses public service, and brings harm to the very people to whom he renders himself subservient.

There is no freedom without brute, cold-hearted force pursuant to its defense.

[osan]

Yes and no. Freedom is winning on some issues, and losing on others.

On the whole, it is losing. Miserably.

For example, what difference does it make that SCOTUS renders a ruling that is thinly marginal in favor of RKBA to a people too corrupted with gutlessness to make proper use of it?

Freedom is losing at an alarming rate. Titanic is taking on huge volumes of sea.

[Snowball]

Secession is the most easy-to-understand (VERY, VERY IMPORTANT FOR AMERICANS!!!) way to break the system.

This doesn't necessarily mean that the ELECTED REPRESENTATIVES will do the seceding, but that connected groups will... in a number
that would cause sufficient crisis -- and then more -- and then more --- until there is a REALPOLITIK revolution.

[PAF]

Secession is the most easy-to-understand (VERY, VERY IMPORTANT FOR AMERICANS!!!) way to break the system.

This doesn't necessarily mean that the ELECTED REPRESENTATIVES will do the seceding, but that connected groups will... in a number
that would cause sufficient crisis -- and then more -- and then more --- until there is a REALPOLITIK revolution.

Snowball, seceding has about about a snowballs chance in hell. Once folks figure out what seceding actually means - no they will not secede. Hell, anarchists, Agorists are still viewed as the idiot-enemy.

[Snowball]

Snowball, seceding has about about a snowballs chance in hell. Once folks figure out what seceding actually means - no they will not secede. Hell, anarchists, Agorists are still viewed as the idiot-enemy.

99% of them don't know what an agorist is, and 96% of them are not anarchists.
So, yeah. I'm not, either. A Revolution or Separation needs organization, something anarchists aren't particularly good at.
The French Revolution is a good example of what happens, as is parts of 19th century Italy. Anarchism is replaced by something else because humans are communal and tribal in nature, and there are many undertakings that individuals and sole families cannot perform alone.
There are goods and services which anarchism cannot address, and evils it fails to suppress.

[PAF]

99% of them don't know what an agorist is, and 96% of them are not anarchists.
So, yeah. I'm not, either. A Revolution or Separation needs organization, something anarchists aren't particularly good at.
The French Revolution is a good example of what happens, as is parts of 19th century Italy. Anarchism is replaced by something else because humans are communal and tribal in nature, and there are many undertakings that individuals and sole families cannot perform alone.
There are goods and services which anarchism cannot address, and evils it fails to suppress.

So, in other words, leave the system of Kings [prez], trilateral negotiators [representatives] and lobbyists intact, just give it a different name.

[Snowball]

So, in other words, leave the system of Kings [prez], trilateral negotiators [representatives] and lobbyists intact, just give it a different name.

All the Catholic kings were better than the Protestant kings, regarding true freedom in daily affairs.
All the Catholic kings were better than the presidents, and some Protestant kings were better than presidents, others, merely equal.

[acptulsa]

All the Catholic kings were better than the presidents...

Not Coolidge.

...and some Protestant kings were better than presidents, others, merely equal.

Who was equal to Coolidge and Biden at the same time? And, like, how?

[PAF]

All the Catholic kings were better than the Protestant kings, regarding true freedom in daily affairs.
All the Catholic kings were better than the presidents, and some Protestant kings were better than presidents, others, merely equal.

Lessers of evil, as long as evil prevails [places hand over heart for the pledge]?

[TheTexan]

Big Daddy Lincoln WILL kill us in our sleep if we choose to disobey him. He has already proven this multiple times over.

Maybe he will, maybe he won't. Until we grow back the nuts to be willing to face that if necessary,

nothing will change

[Snowball]

Lessers of evil, as long as evil prevails [places hand over heart for the pledge]?

Well, there was a tiny excise tax and it was described as tyranny, even if that excise tax was really only there so that Catholic kingdoms
could be warred against by the Protestants... still, weren't the American colonists in better shape before they deemed "representation"
so essential? What has "representation" really gotten us?

[acptulsa]

Well, there was a tiny excise tax and it was described as tyranny, even if that excise tax was really only there so that Catholic kingdoms
could be warred against by the Protestants... still, weren't the American colonists in better shape before they deemed "representation"
so essential? What has "representation" really gotten us?

Move to Canada and find out.

Roll up your sleeve.

[acptulsa]

DP

[jmdrake]

On the whole, it is losing. Miserably.

For example, what difference does it make that SCOTUS renders a ruling that is thinly marginal in favor of RKBA to a people too corrupted with gutlessness to make proper use of it?

Freedom is losing at an alarming rate. Titanic is taking on huge volumes of sea.

You only need one person exercising his RKBA at 40 yards with a handgun to stop an active shooter with an AR-15.

https://americanmilitarynews.com/202...ctive-shooter/



What better way to throw a monkey wrench in the gun control machine? Having politicians extol the virtues of the 2nd amendment? Or having private citizens demonstrate it?

[osan]

You only need one person exercising his RKBA at 40 yards with a handgun to stop an active shooter with an AR-15.

That's not the relevant sense to which I refer. I'm speaking of the greater political context.

What better way to throw a monkey wrench in the gun control machine? Having politicians extol the virtues of the 2nd amendment? Or having private citizens demonstrate it?

Every little bit helps, but such matters are not how freedom is secured and maintained, which is a far larger sphere. I will add that so long as the tyrants are allowed to live, they shall always pose a clear and present threat to liberty. Elimination is the only hope.

Think "necessary condition" v. "sufficient".

[TheTexan]

What better way to throw a monkey wrench in the gun control machine? Having politicians extol the virtues of the 2nd amendment? Or having private citizens demonstrate it?

The thing is, even if were proven 1000x over it would not be enough.

They don't care. It's never been about safety, or protecting lives.

It's always been about control.

They will not cease until they have you under their control.

[jmdrake]

That's not the relevant sense to which I refer. I'm speaking of the greater political context.



Every little bit helps, but such matters are not how freedom is secured and maintained, which is a far larger sphere. I will add that so long as the tyrants are allowed to live, they shall always pose a clear and present threat to liberty. Elimination is the only hope.

Think "necessary condition" v. "sufficient".

You talked about the RKBA and mentioned "people too corrupted with gutlessness to make proper use of it." Well Eli Dicken wasn't too gutless to use it. And that's the time when it should have been used. When you have a clear enemy (active shooter) and clear objective (take out the active shooter before he kills more people). If you're talking about more people not taking up arms for circle jerks like what happened on January 6th...no clear objective and no clear enemy. That moronic insanity inspires no good people to do any good thing. But Eli Dicken's action? I think I'm ready to plunk down $300 for a side arm and go to the range.

[jmdrake]

The thing is, even if were proven 1000x over it would not be enough.

They don't care. It's never been about safety, or protecting lives.

It's always been about control.

They will not cease until they have you under their control.

Every person who is inspired by Eli Dicken and what he did as opposed to what those 400 loser cops in Uvalde Texas failed to do and goes and gets armed and trained just in case he finds himself in an active shooter scenario is one more person that they will have a hard time getting under their control.

[osan]

You talked about the RKBA and mentioned "people too corrupted with gutlessness to make proper use of it." Well Eli Dicken wasn't too gutless to use it. And that's the time when it should have been used. When you have a clear enemy (active shooter) and clear objective (take out the active shooter before he kills more people). If you're talking about more people not taking up arms for circle jerks like what happened on January 6th...no clear objective and no clear enemy. That moronic insanity inspires no good people to do any good thing. But Eli Dicken's action? I think I'm ready to plunk down $300 for a side arm and go to the range.

I very specifically meant the greater political context and not the mere taking of an active shooter. That's a big fish in a small pond.

As for a sidearm, better late than never.

[jmdrake]

I very specifically meant the greater political context and not the mere taking of an active shooter. That's a big fish in a small pond.

As for a sidearm, better late than never.

Yes. I addressed that in my response by giving the example of the January 6th circle jerk as the "broader political context." Complete and total strategic and tactical disaster. You want to talk a big fish in a little points? Jan 6 is a rotting whale washed up on the beach. We don't get are freedom back by people running around RKBArming without rhyme or reason or purpose. But more people actually becoming proficient with firearms because they see how that really could impact their lives for the better? That's a lot of small fish that can add up to a school of piranha if/when the time presents itself. The Oathkeepers had the right idea to start off with when they were protecting black owned businesses in Ferguson. They spread goodwill and the message of liberty in a way that baffled their enemies. And then they went full retard on January 6th. Never go full retard.

[osan]

Yes. I addressed that in my response by giving the example of the January 6th circle jerk as the "broader political context." Complete and total strategic and tactical disaster. You want to talk a big fish in a little points? Jan 6 is a rotting whale washed up on the beach. We don't get are freedom back by people running around RKBArming without rhyme or reason or purpose. But more people actually becoming proficient with firearms because they see how that really could impact their lives for the better? That's a lot of small fish that can add up to a school of piranha if/when the time presents itself. The Oathkeepers had the right idea to start off with when they were protecting black owned businesses in Ferguson. They spread goodwill and the message of liberty in a way that baffled their enemies. And then they went full retard on January 6th. Never go full retard.

We do not disagree.

[Matt Collins]

Maybe he will, maybe he won't.

He will, unless he can't (such as his money is worthless).