So why not secede?

[Matt Collins]

And you obsess too much about the divide being rural/urban. The simple fact of the matter is - it doesn't matter. For several reasons:

1) Secession is a good thing, always. Regardless of the divide or lack thereof

Ok, tell me, which state can you go to where there are no progressives or not enough to matter? (I'm assuming this is who you are trying to get away from? I know I am).


The west has been invaded by Californians and is turning blue. The midwest is full of union types. Florida has a lot of Yanks and while the most recent batch tend to vote red, the state is still within 10 points of being blue in any statewide election (next 2 cycles may be different).

GA went blue, NC did too, the South is not a great option. And of course neither is New England.

2) Texas as a whole is very different from California as a whole (you disagree, but you are also wrong.)

Of course it is. But as someone who lived in and around Austin for close to a year it was just like being in SoCal, if not worse. DFW and SAT are not that far off and neither is HOU and ELP.

The fact is that progressives own the urban areas by their very nature. There is no way around that I can see. If you can then please enlighten me.

[jmdrake]

@Anti Federalist. Why not secede? Because we're winning. I've never seen people be so pessimistic about so much back to back good news. Do I need to enumerate?

[TheTexan]

Ok, tell me, which state can you go to where there are no progressives or not enough to matter? (I'm assuming this is who you are trying to get away from? I know I am).


The west has been invaded by Californians and is turning blue. The midwest is full of union types. Florida has a lot of Yanks and while the most recent batch tend to vote red, the state is still within 10 points of being blue in any statewide election (next 2 cycles may be different).

What you're describing are the symptoms of a forced union. The states have not been allowed to differentiate themselves, and have become largely homogenous in law, culture, and politics.

However this was not and is not sustainable, because we are not homogenous.

Like a jar of oil and vinegar, even if you mix it up, it will eventually separate.

The Left is becoming more and more extreme, and as a result, the Right is pushing back.

This is plainly visible for example in Texas.

In Texas there is a resurgence of right-wing energy, fueled mostly by a hatred of the Left, and Texas republicans are taking steps to solidify Texas as a right-wing state.

Just look at Texas's legislative priorities for the next session:

- Protect our Elections
- Ban Democrat Chairs
- Abolish Abortion in Texas
- Stop Sexualizing Texas Kids
- Ban Gender Modification of Children
- Secure the Border and Protect Texans
- Parental Rights and Educational Freedom
- Defend Our Gun Rights

Every single one of those is designed to drive a wedge between the Left and the Right.

If Texas successfully capitalizes on this energy, Texas will be fortified as a conservative state.

It's a self-reinforcing cycle. The more conservative Texas becomes, the more liberals will leave the state, the more conservatives will migrate to the state, and Texas becomes even more conservative.

This is the way the states were intended to work.

But Lincoln $#@!ed it up.

We have a chance to correct his error however.

We can either correct it now, and secede.

Or we can choose not to, and destine this country to increasingly unimaginable suffering that we have only begun to witness.

[TheTexan]

@Anti Federalist. Why not secede? Because we're winning.

2 back to back small victories is not "winning", when compared to the greater context.

We are losing bad, and if anything, these SCROTUS wins are designed to make people like you and me complacent.

[jmdrake]

What you're describing are the symptoms of a forced union. The states have not been allowed to differentiate themselves, and have become largely homogenous in law, culture, and politics.

However this was not and is not sustainable, because we are not homogenous.

Like a jar of oil and vinegar, even if you mix it up, it will eventually separate.

The Left is becoming more and more extreme, and as a result, the Right is pushing back.

This is plainly visible for example in Texas.

In Texas there is a resurgence of right-wing energy, fueled mostly by a hatred of the Left, and Texas republicans are taking steps to solidify Texas as a right-wing state.

Just look at Texas's legislative priorities for the next session:

- Protect our Elections
- Ban Democrat Chairs
- Abolish Abortion in Texas
- Stop Sexualizing Texas Kids
- Ban Gender Modification of Children
- Secure the Border and Protect Texans
- Parental Rights and Educational Freedom
- Defend Our Gun Rights

Every single one of those is designed to drive a wedge between the Left and the Right.

If Texas successfully capitalizes on this energy, Texas will be fortified as a conservative state.

It's a self-reinforcing cycle. The more conservative Texas becomes, the more liberals will leave the state, the more conservatives will migrate to the state, and Texas becomes even more conservative.

This is the way the states were intended to work.

But Lincoln $#@!ed it up.

We have a chance to correct his error however.

We can either correct it now, and secede.

Or we can choose not to, and destine this country to increasingly unimaginable suffering that we have only begun to witness.

If not for slavery, southern secession never would have happened. Tariff's alone wouldn't have done it. Southerner Andrew Jackson made sure of that. Is there any other national issue that's even comparable? Abortion? Maybe but I doubt it. The whole "rainbow agenda?" That might of jumped the shark. Disney's "Lightyear" has no "buzz" (pardon the pun) in large part because the news that Islamic countries were banning it over the lesbian kiss convinced conservative Christian parents to skip the movie as well. (LOL. Islamic homophobes to the rescue!) I don't think if Lincoln had never been born the civil war would have been avoided. "Bloody Kansas" had already happened. And "peaceful separation" would have required dealing with the question of anti slave raids from free states. (Why Andrew Jackson invaded Florida). I do see states becoming more polarized as you described. New York and Virginia can have their "Abortion until birth and beyond" laws...until the people of those states realize how absurd that is. But barring some ham fisted move by the feds that I don't see on the horizon at the moment I'm not expecting Ft. Sumptner 2.

[TheTexan]

The fact is that progressives own the urban areas by their very nature. There is no way around that I can see. If you can then please enlighten me.

Cities will always be liberal $#@!holes relative to the country side.

But they don't have to be homogenously equal in liberal $#@!-holiness.

It is possible for a big city to be relatively conservative.

We don't see that much at all these days, but that's a symptom of Lincoln's curse.

Allow differentiation to occur via secession, and you will witness big cities that are worthy of living in.

---------------

Another way to look at it Matt, is that if you are correct, that big cities are invariably liberal $#@!holes that cannot be reined in, then what's the point in even trying. Since before this country was founded, there has been a migration of people from rural to the cities. In some short decades there will be nothing left in the fields except machines and the occasional redneck hoarding gold in his 3 doomsday bunkers.

The future of the world is big cities. So if the divide is between rural, and urban, like you say, then... this fight was lost a long time ago and we should throw up our hands at this point and just accept the fate that lies before us. In the future, there will be no "rural".

[TheTexan]

If not for slavery, southern secession never would have happened.

What's your point?

Does the topic of slavery have to come up every time the topic of secession comes up?

[jmdrake]

2 back to back small victories is not "winning", when compared to the greater context.

We are losing bad, and if anything, these SCROTUS wins are designed to make people like you and me complacent.

1) Biden's numbers are in the toilet.

2) A George Soros DA just got his walking papers IN LIBERAL SAN FRANCISCO largely based on the Asian vote.

3) A Republican Latina just won an open seat in Texas previously held by a democrat.

4) Nobody is paying any attention anymore to COVID and monkey-pox hasn't scared anyone.

5) Mask mandates have been struck down.

6) Vaccine passports are going by-by even in liberal cities.

7) Most people now blame Biden for high gas prices.

8) People are souring on foreign aid for Ukraine.

9) Liz Cheney has been reduced to begging for democratic votes and it still likely won't save her.

10) We just got a 6-3 vote affirming a coaches right to do the Colin Kaepernick after a game and kneel but this time to pray.

11) Disney's latest attempt to inject the rainbow into a kid's flick has flopped.

12) People are starting to wake up to the fact that taking children to a gay bar to watch drag shows is not normal.

That's just 12 victories I rattled off the top of my head without even breaking a sweat. Oh yeah...and as a bonus the Jan 6 hearings seem to have backfired.

[jmdrake]

What's your point?

Does the topic of slavery have to come up every time the topic of secession comes up?

Only when YOU brought up southern secession and Lincoln.

[TheTexan]

Only when YOU brought up southern secession and Lincoln.

Ok... still not sure why every time that is brought up, slavery has to be brought up. The post was about secession. Not slavery.

[jmdrake]

Ok... still not sure why every time that is brought up, slavery has to be brought up. The post was about secession. Not slavery.

When Andrew Jackson was president, secession was about tariffs. When Lincoln was president, secession was about slavery. I'm not sure why you chose to talk about Lincoln and not Jackson...but anyway.

[TheTexan]

1) Biden's numbers are in the toilet.

2) A George Soros DA just got his walking papers IN LIBERAL SAN FRANCISCO largely based on the Asian vote.

3) A Republican Latina just won an open seat in Texas previously held by a democrat.

4) Nobody is paying any attention anymore to COVID and monkey-pox hasn't scared anyone.

5) Mask mandates have been struck down.

6) Vaccine passports are going by-by even in liberal cities.

7) Most people now blame Biden for high gas prices.

8) People are souring on foreign aid for Ukraine.

9) Liz Cheney has been reduced to begging for democratic votes and it still likely won't save her.

10) We just got a 6-3 vote affirming a coaches right to do the Colin Kaepernick after a game and kneel but this time to pray.

11) Disney's latest attempt to inject the rainbow into a kid's flick has flopped.

12) People are starting to wake up to the fact that taking children to a gay bar to watch drag shows is not normal.

That's just 12 victories I rattled off the top of my head without even breaking a sweat. Oh yeah...and as a bonus the Jan 6 hearings seem to have backfired.

If you say so lol.

Let's chat again 4 years from now and see how much "winning" we have accomplished.

[TheTexan]

When Andrew Jackson was president, secession was about tariffs. When Lincoln was president, secession was about slavery. I'm not sure why you chose to talk about Lincoln and not Jackson...but anyway.

I talk about Lincoln because that's who people idolize, noone even knows who Jackson was. I agree with you on Jackson's significance to the downfall of this nation. But Lincoln has plenty of share of blame on his side as well. For your purposes, when I say "Lincoln", just imagine that I wrote, "Lincoln and Jackson".

[jmdrake]

If you say so lol.

Let's chat again 4 years from now and see how much "winning" we have accomplished.

[jmdrake]

I talk about Lincoln because that's who people idolize, noone even knows who Jackson was. I agree with you on Jackson's significance to the downfall of this nation. But Lincoln has plenty of share of blame on his side as well. For your purposes, when I say "Lincoln", just imagine that I wrote, "Lincoln and Jackson".

Jackson gets idolized in liberty movement for his role in killing the central bank.

[TheTexan]

Jackson gets idolized in liberty movement for his role in killing the central bank.

Ok, and in threads where that is relevant, I will refer to Jackson by name lol

[jmdrake]

Ok, and in threads where that is relevant, I will refer to Jackson by name lol

LOL Touche'

[Anti Federalist]

@Anti Federalist. Why not secede? Because we're winning. I've never seen people be so pessimistic about so much back to back good news. Do I need to enumerate?

We're far from winning brother...we've moved the ball down the field and made a first down, that's about it.

The Marxists never stop, they never quit, it never ends...I'd like to separate from them all so we don't have to live our lives like Inspector Clouseau, who instructed his Chinese man-servant, Kato, to randomly attack him at the most inopportune and ridiculous of times, so as to always keep Clouseau in a state of "cat like readiness, for any attack". I had a marriage like that, and it gets downright intolerable after a while.

That said, I'm delighted that the decisions came down like that. And yes, Trump deserves some of the credit, he said what and who he was going to appoint to the court, and they delivered. My god, if you had told me back in 1982 that in 40 years the majority of states would be "constitutional carry", the SCOTUS would affirm the Second Amendment as a right of the people to keep and bear arms, and the freaking Sullivan Law in NYC would be overturned, I'd have laughed in your face.

But because of who and what are enemy is, our time for celebration is short. By the end of this term, for instance, mark my words, there will be federal legislation or an Executive fatwa that will state something to the effect that "Any state that bans abortion in any way, will have all federal Medicare funds withheld".

That's how we got fed speed limits and seat belts laws and NHTSB fatwas and California emissions, among a whole host of other things.

[paleocon1]

Secession by either the Left or Americans simply creates a fully Leftist controlled base from which to expand. Better to fight a bitter civil war, sanction all the leftists with enough nerve to become wolves, then cull the remaining leftist politicals while helping the mundanes to learn to be Americans again and never ever again allow people with signs of leftist dementia to have a voice in government. Ideally future 'bill clintons' would get called out and removed from the gene pool in a duel around age 20.

[jmdrake]

We're far from winning brother...we've moved the ball down the field and made a first down, that's about it.

The Marxists never stop, they never quit, it never ends...I'd like to separate from them all so we don't have to live our lives like Inspector Clouseau, who instructed his Chinese man-servant, Kato, to randomly attack him at the most inopportune and ridiculous of times, so as to always keep Clouseau in a state of "cat like readiness, for any attack". I had a marriage like that, and it gets downright intolerable after a while.

That said, I'm delighted that the decisions came down like that. And yes, Trump deserves some of the credit, he said what and who he was going to appoint to the court, and they delivered. My god, if you had told me back in 1982 that in 40 years the majority of states would be "constitutional carry", the SCOTUS would affirm the Second Amendment as a right of the people to keep and bear arms, and the freaking Sullivan Law in NYC would be overturned, I'd have laughed in your face.

But because of who and what are enemy is, our time for celebration is short. By the end of this term, for instance, mark my words, there will be federal legislation or an Executive fatwa that will state something to the effect that "Any state that bans abortion in any way, will have all federal Medicare funds withheld".

That's how we got fed speed limits and seat belts laws and NHTSB fatwas and California emissions, among a whole host of other things.

I'm willing to bet that no such federal legislation has any chance of passage and if Biden attempted it by executive order he'd risk it getting overturned by SCOTUS. And we're months away from Nancy Pelosi losing the gavel.

[TheTexan]

Secession by either the Left or Americans simply creates a fully Leftist controlled base from which to expand. Better to fight a bitter civil war, sanction all the leftists with enough nerve to become wolves, then cull the remaining leftist politicals while helping the mundanes to learn to be Americans again and never ever again allow people with signs of leftist dementia to have a voice in government. Ideally future 'bill clintons' would get called out and removed from the gene pool in a duel around age 20.

There will always be a leftist base. Pretty much the entire civilized world outside of Russia is a leftist base currently.

Unless you are prepared to go to war with the entire world to exterminate leftism, there will always be a fully Leftist controlled based from which they can expand.

You are correct however, that their desire for aggression is a constant threat, and that it needs to be managed.

"While it remains a burden assiduously avoided, it is not unexpected, and thus not beyond a measure of control. "

[Anti Federalist]

I'm willing to bet that no such federal legislation has any chance of passage and if Biden attempted it by executive order he'd risk it getting overturned by SCOTUS. And we're months away from Nancy Pelosi losing the gavel.

I'll bet you a bottle of Mike Rowe's whiskey.

No snark, explain to me the legal reason why such a measure would be overturned, when it's used in so many other ways.

[jmdrake]

I'll bet you a bottle of Mike Rowe's whiskey.

No snark, explain to me the legal reason why such a measure would be overturned, when it's used in so many other ways.

Explain to me why you think the same SCOTUS that overturned Biden's workplace vaccine executive order and just struck down Roe v. Wade would then magically turn around an let Biden reinstate Roe v Wade by executive order.

[Anti Federalist]

Explain to me why you think the same SCOTUS that overturned Biden's workplace vaccine executive order and just struck down Roe v. Wade would then magically turn around an let Biden reinstate Roe v Wade by executive order.

If I'm not mistaken, all they did is remove a bad ruling based on bad legal reasoning for bad political purposes and returning the entire situation back to status quo ante.

What legal basis would the court use to overturn such a law or executive order?

I'm asking because you practice law, if there is some legal reasoning that would prohibit that, then it could be applied to all manners of fatwas that the feds impose on the states through the threat of withholding federal funds?

If there is not, then what would prevent the feds from doing something like that?

Or even worse, setting up "abortion camps" on federal land within anti states?

[jmdrake]

If I'm not mistaken, all they did is remove a bad ruling based on bad legal reasoning for bad political purposes and returning the entire situation back to status quo ante.

What legal basis would the court use to overturn such a law or executive order?

I'm asking because you practice law, if there is some legal reasoning that would prohibit that, then it could be applied to all manners of fatwas that the feds impose on the states through the threat of withholding federal funds?

If there is not, then what would prevent the feds from doing something like that?

Or even worse, setting up "abortion camps" on federal land within anti states?

Congress has the power of the purse, not the president. Biden would need to reinterpret some already existing law, like he's doing with title-9 for trans athletes, to do that. The title-9 action by Biden for trans-athletes falls in line with SCOTUS reinterpreting "sex" to include "sexual orientation."

Oh...and looking back in the vote on that ridiculous opinion, I'm again shocked that Roe v Wade was overturned.

https://www.ncfamily.org/scotus-rede...nder-identity/

In a surprise to many, Justice Neil Gorsuch authored the majority opinion in Bostock and was joined by Chief Justice Roberts along with Justices Ginsburg, Breyer, Sotomayor, and Kagan. Justice Alito wrote a scathing rebuke of the majority opinion in a dissent and was joined by Justice Thomas. Justice Kavanaugh wrote a separate dissent.

Were Gorsuch and Roberts playing that infamous "4D chess" we kept hearing about? Throw the liberals one more bone so that Trump would get a chance to replace Ginsburg and get a 6-3 conservative majority? If that's the case (and....I think it might be), then this is simple math. They've got their 6-3 majority, they've got lifetime appointments, Biden's not going to get a change to make another appointment before he leaves office at the end of 2024, and they're going to do whatever the hell they want.

But back to the legal analysis. You've got a better chance at an all transwoman Olympic team in 2024 than you have Biden reinstating Roe via executive order. Seriously, beating Biden's title 9 order would mean getting Gorsuch to overturn Gorsuch. Judges are some vain mamma jammas. They'll overturn 200 years of precedence before they go against their own rulings.

[Pauls' Revere]

People fight wars, not governments. Abstract concepts are not capable of firing weapons.

[ClaytonB]

I'm willing to bet that no such federal legislation has any chance of passage and if Biden attempted it by executive order he'd risk it getting overturned by SCOTUS. And we're months away from Nancy Pelosi losing the gavel.

All outta rep...

[Snowball]

Secession must ALWAYS remain a fundamental right. Those who roil against secession are hypocrites if they are Republicans or Democrats.

True democrats hold secession in high esteem because it is a function of democracy to choose to leave a Union.
True republicans hold secession in high esteem because a republic consists of lesser republics that voluntarily joined a union of republics.

Those who seek to criminalise secession are not truly American in their philosophy whatsoever.

This country has had more bad presidents than good ones. This country has had more absolutely horrible presidents than great ones.

Of them all, the worst was Abraham Lincoln, because Lincoln desecrated the most sacred rights enshrined in all our laws, founding principles
and the spirit of this country, then he washed our fields with bloodshed in order to uphold that perverse, diabolical tyranny.

[Matt Collins]

Cities will always be liberal $#@!holes relative to the country side.

But they don't have to be homogenously equal in liberal $#@!-holiness.

It is possible for a big city to be relatively conservative.

We don't see that much at all these days, but that's a symptom of Lincoln's curse.

Allow differentiation to occur via secession, and you will witness big cities that are worthy of living in.

I don't know that I believe this. I mean it would be nice if it were true, but urban areas attract people who like big government by their very nature. Can you show me an example?

Another way to look at it Matt, is that if you are correct, that big cities are invariably liberal $#@!holes that cannot be reined in, then what's the point in even trying. Since before this country was founded, there has been a migration of people from rural to the cities. In some short decades there will be nothing left in the fields except machines and the occasional redneck hoarding gold in his 3 doomsday bunkers.

The future of the world is big cities. So if the divide is between rural, and urban, like you say, then... this fight was lost a long time ago and we should throw up our hands at this point and just accept the fate that lies before us. In the future, there will be no "rural".

I think Jefferson touched on this in some of his writings, and I think the divide has been as old as the nation itself.

The problem isn't so much that urban areas are liberal and progressive, it's that they want to impose their will on people who choose not to live their lifestyle.

And even worse there is actually a liberal / progressive movement for these types to leave the urban areas and move into small and rural towns in an attempt to transform them.

Here are some examples:

[Matt Collins]