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Thread: The Workers Song

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    What am I wrong about? Are you reading my statement that Henry Ford couldn't build millions of cars without hiring anyone as me saying he was a bumbling dunce, the way Krugfan did? I see a wide, wide gulf between "can build millions of cars single handed" and "is a bumbling dunce", and I'm amazed at the mentality that can't. Do you, too, wrongly interpret my counterpoint to his hero worship as denigration of these entrepreneurs' accomplishments? Do you read my point that Sloan knew he couldn't maintain GM as an industrial power without many other people, like Kettering, as a slight on Sloan? It isn't. That's why Sloan could guide GM's growth into a giant, and Strawmanator never could.
    My reply was to the overall back-and-forth between both of you. Krugminator is presenting capitalists as some kind of hyper-competent supermen who could, McGuyver-style, assemble entire cars single-handedly if called upon to do so. What nonsense. It's not only false in the specific historical cases he mentions, but even if it had been true, it would still be irrelevant. Technical competency in actual production of goods or services is not what makes entrepreneurship valuable; it has little if anything to do with entrepreneurship. People who think this way don't understand the difference between managing and owning a business. The manager knows how to run the business; the owner knows how much revenue the business generates and how much it is worth on the market relative to other, similar (or different) businesses. Sometimes, one person performs both roles. But they really are separate concerns.

    That said, the idea that workers "do the real work" and owners are some kind of useless, entitled, bolt-on appendages is also incorrect. Yes, the shoemaker is the one with the skills in making the shoe. But a shoe-making company that mass-produces shoes is not a shoemaker, it's a mass-production shoe-making company. It may employ shoe-makers. They may even be part of the "secret sauce" that gives the company value. But the company itself is like a machine made out of people -- it is the buying, making, repairing, scrapping, etc. of those machines-made-of-people that is what large-scale entrepreneurship is really all about. Too many artisans get this mixed up, because they look at the secret-sauce in a company and they recognize the skill and talent of the core artisans in the company. "It's the coffee roasters who are the heart of Starbucks, the management chain is just fluff." Well, the roasters are the heart of it, but the management chain isn't just fluff, you simply could not have a human operation at that scale without all the accoutrements of such operations (management, payroll, fleet, facilities, etc.)

    Artisans really are very skilled at what they do, some of them have world-unique talents that no one else can exactly replicate and, in certain industries, they can be worth millions of dollars a year... Hollywood actors or well-known pop musicians are very visible examples of such artisans. But, at the end of the day, they can only work about 2,000 hours a year or so, no more than anybody else. So it's not until you "scale up" an operation that it goes from being worth maybe a few dozen million dollars a year, into hundreds of millions or billions. That 10,000x scale differential between the most valuable sole-proprietor concern in existence and the revenues of the largest corporations... is capitalism. So, you need both.

    It is this very tendency of artisans to despise the "untalented corporate zombies" which is what the Marxists have targeted in order to form the core of the revolutionary proletariat. You need artisans, but you also need the boring check-box bean-counters. You don't get modern production (both in terms of scale of automation and precision/replication) without both. That's why the Marxists have targeted this, because it is the "weak joint" of the modern system of production.

    And who or what vested the power in you to pronounce us man and wife? You kiss the bride; I'm not going to.
    Thanks but I'll pass...



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  3. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by ClaytonB View Post
    My reply was to the overall back-and-forth between both of you...
    You still haven't said what I was wrong about. That wall of text simply restates my point. Was I not being diplomatic enough to suit you? Is that how I was "wrong"? The fact is, Marxists couldn't target that and exploit it if those corporate offices (and Wall St., and the Capitol) weren't full of people who think any trained ape could lay down a weld that will hold water for decades, or design a connecting rod that can reliably turn that much force into torque--and tend to make no secret of that contempt. To the point that they'll pop up in a thread started by working men for working men for the purpose of spewing that contempt.

    And what makes you say I'd be any more willing to kiss the bitch than you are?
    Last edited by acptulsa; 03-23-2022 at 10:42 AM.
    "Stupidity got us into this mess. Why can't it get us out?"--Will Rogers

    "All I know is what I read in the newspapers, and that's an alibi for my ignorance."--Will Rogers



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  5. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by ClaytonB View Post
    My reply was to the overall back-and-forth between both of you. Krugminator is presenting capitalists as some kind of hyper-competent supermen who could, McGuyver-style, assemble entire cars single-handedly if called upon to do so. .

    He said the people I listed couldn't change a tire. They can. Changing a tire isn't some skill only a select few can learn. I illustrated how absurd it is by pointing out given Koch's background, it seems likely he could not just change a tire but build a car.

  6. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    Maybe even by a flat tire. [emphasis added]
    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post
    He said the people I listed couldn't change a tire. They can.
    Sam Walton cannot change a tire. He could when he was alive. But he can not. And the fact that pretty much everyone can learn a skill is worthless if no one in the car learned it before the driver ran over the nail forty miles west of Dog$#@!, Iowa. Furthermore, I don't recognize you as an expert on Bezos' and Koch's current life skills, much less whether or not Bezos has been to the gym enough, or Koch has remained spry enough in his eighth decade on earth, to break loose a nut applied with the aid of pneumatic pressure.

    Keep building those scarecrows, bud. I can disavow 'em faster than you can stuff the straw in 'em.
    Last edited by acptulsa; 03-23-2022 at 10:29 AM.
    "Stupidity got us into this mess. Why can't it get us out?"--Will Rogers

    "All I know is what I read in the newspapers, and that's an alibi for my ignorance."--Will Rogers

  7. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    You still haven't said what I was wrong about. That wall of text simply restates my point. Was I not being diplomatic enough to suit you? Is that how I was "wrong"? The fact is, Marxists couldn't target that and exploit it if those corporate offices (and Wall St., and the Capitol) weren't full of people who think any trained ape could lay down a weld that will hold water for decades, or design a connecting rod that can reliably turn that much force into torque--and tend to make no secret of that contempt. To the point that they'll pop up in a thread started by working men for working men for the purpose of spewing that contempt.

    And what makes you say I'd be any more willing to kiss the bitch than you are?
    Look, I'm not trying to "take a side", here, I just wanted to point out the (usually overlooked) tension between these two perspectives -- the "workers' perspective" on production and "the firm-owners' perspective". Both are equally valid! That's the overlooked point. So, no matter how snobby the firm-owners are, they better learn to get along with their workers and properly value the work they do. And no matter how annoyed the workers may be with the ignorance or backwardness of the firm-owner's decisions, they need to learn to respect the role of firm-owner and, imagine this, maybe even aspire to become a firm-owner themselves one day! That was the original "American dream". I think you get that, so just carry on. I just wanted to make that point, because it's the main ideological sleight-of-hand that the Marxists have been using as a wedge-issue for over a century. It's time that people start catching on to the trick ...

  8. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by ClaytonB View Post
    Look, I'm not trying to "take a side", here...
    Ah. Or maybe even, trying not to. Fair enough.
    "Stupidity got us into this mess. Why can't it get us out?"--Will Rogers

    "All I know is what I read in the newspapers, and that's an alibi for my ignorance."--Will Rogers

  9. #37
    From my old Bones,,
    Ok,,and some Beer

    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  10. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post
    That first song is just pure disgusting Marxist trash. Somewhere along the way that fat cat delayed gratification, took calculated risks, and is now reaping the rewards. The worker is actually first to get the cream not the last and gets paid no matter what. But setting that aside, the fat cat gets more because the fat cat worked 100 hours a week for nothing while the worker was screwing off. And the fat cat still has the important job. Making decisions. The fat cat can't be easily replaced and is the reason the business sinks or swims.

    I have a solution to lyrics in the first song. Maybe don't screw off in school and work harder. Or if that didn't happen have the initiative to start a business and become a fat cat so that a robot can't replace your very important job of screwing in a lug nut. Nobody is forced to do anything.

    There is nothing wrong with being a worker. It can be noble but let's not act like they are what make society function. It is the entrepreneur that makes the system go. Sam Walton, Elon Musk, Charles Koch, Jeff Bezos are what make life great for everyone else and what the system depends on.
    Next time you need an electrician, plumber or carpenter hold off. Just wait for the robot to get your $#@! running again. That robot $#@! ain't happening in your lifetime.

  11. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post
    It doesn't change the fact that the average person and the average worker isn't what makes society go.
    What $#@!ing balderdash. Next time your power goes out in a storm ask a Bezos or Elon to to fix the wreckage from the storm.


  12. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    What $#@!ing balderdash. Next time your power goes out in a storm ask a Bezos or Elon to to fix the wreckage from the storm.

    Privates don't plan a strategic invasion, generals do that...



    Even senior enlisted and warrant-officers do not usually directly perform strategic-level planning, even if they play a pivotal role. There is a reason every major military in the history of the world has consisted of clearly distinct soldiers and commanders... each performs a unique role. Both needs the other. You can't put your full concentration on killing the enemy if you do not believe your officers have your back on a strategic level, and that the teams you're supposed to meet at the designated marker will indeed be there, that the extraction team will come for you. And you can't fight boots on the ground without soldiers... an army consisting of officers alone would be useless.

    This structure is universal. It is so universal, it is etched into the Cosmos itself (Heavens and Earth) and is etched into the very words and structure of Scripture. How much more does it apply to firm-owners and workers? Both are inter-dependent. There have been some lone guns in history, and a few of them have left a notable dent in the Universe. But they are so remarkable precisely because of how rare they are. They are the exception that proves the rule. The rule is: head and body, spirit and flesh, heaven and earth, officers and enlisted, firm-owners and workers. There's no way around it except to buy yourself a horse and a gun, hit the road as a hired gun and try to make your own dent in the Universe...
    Last edited by ClaytonB; 03-25-2022 at 04:51 PM.



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  14. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by ClaytonB View Post
    Privates don't plan a strategic invasion, generals do that...



    Even senior enlisted and warrant-officers do not usually directly perform strategic-level planning, even if they play a pivotal role. There is a reason every major military in the history of the world has consisted of clearly distinct soldiers and commanders... each performs a unique role. Both needs the other. You can't put your full concentration on killing the enemy if you do not believe your officers have your back on a strategic level, and that the teams you're supposed to meet at the designated marker will indeed be there, that the extraction team will come for you. And you can't fight boots on the ground without soldiers... an army consisting of officers alone would be useless.

    This structure is universal. It is so universal, it is etched into the Cosmos itself (Heavens and Earth) and is etched into the very words and structure of Scripture. How much more does it apply to firm-owners and workers? Both are inter-dependent. There have been some lone guns in history, and a few of them have left a notable dent in the Universe. But they are so remarkable precisely because of how rare they are. They are the exception that proves the rule. The rule is: head and body, spirit and flesh, heaven and earth, officers and enlisted, firm-owners and workers. There's no way around it except to buy yourself a horse and a gun, hit the road as a hired gun and try to make your own dent in the Universe...
    Each does perform a unique role. In this you are correct. I don't dispute that. I've recently started working for an electrical company. Industrial. Waste water and water treatment plants. Multi-million dollar jobs.

    So when it comes to building or expanding these plants what would you consider the structure? Obviously the power players are the county/city funders. Then there are the general contractors. Then the sub-contractors. The owners of these companies. Then there are the logistics power players which would be the engineers/architects.
    Then you work down the chain to the contractors project managers. I'll call them the senior enlisted/warrant officer. Then there is myself and co-horts. The enlisted.
    Do you know how much, every single day, myself and co-horts troubleshoot and work around FUBAR snafus?
    Every single day. It's the enlisted that makes $#@! happen. Every $#@! up that trickles down from the top is corrected in the field. By the enlisted.

  15. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Every $#@! up that trickles down from the top is corrected in the field. By the enlisted.
    ..
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    Last edited by acptulsa; 03-25-2022 at 07:21 PM.
    "Stupidity got us into this mess. Why can't it get us out?"--Will Rogers

    "All I know is what I read in the newspapers, and that's an alibi for my ignorance."--Will Rogers

  16. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Each does perform a unique role. In this you are correct. I don't dispute that. I've recently started working for an electrical company. Industrial. Waste water and water treatment plants. Multi-million dollar jobs.

    So when it comes to building or expanding these plants what would you consider the structure? Obviously the power players are the county/city funders. Then there are the general contractors. Then the sub-contractors. The owners of these companies. Then there are the logistics power players which would be the engineers/architects.
    Then you work down the chain to the contractors project managers. I'll call them the senior enlisted/warrant officer. Then there is myself and co-horts. The enlisted.
    Do you know how much, every single day, myself and co-horts troubleshoot and work around FUBAR snafus?
    Every single day. It's the enlisted that makes $#@! happen. Every $#@! up that trickles down from the top is corrected in the field. By the enlisted.
    I've never been in the military, but I've heard plenty of the same stories about how it's up to the enlisted to fix the FUBARs from "on high". I won't pretend to be able to fully sympathize since I do work in engineering, so I would be one of those guys doing the FUBARs (but I try not to!). However, I am a holistic "systems thinker", so I see how all these parts can and should work together. Marxism is what you get when you lop off the head and try to have a zombie-body running the entire economy. Inflation-fueled crony capitalism creates the fake-economy we have in the US... all chiefs and no Indians, as the old-fashioned saying went. It's what you get when you try to have a head and no body. Both are equally insane.

    I don't have any immediate solutions. All I know is the end-goal... you have to have both head and body, and they have to work together instead of pulling against each other. There is no other way.

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