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Thread: Conservatives and the Free Trade Straw Man

  1. #271
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    But there would be less billionaires in America. The Walton family would have a business which may have grown enough to compete with JC Penny. They would not be billionaires. Jeff Bezos would be working as a programmer somewhere.
    True, although I think Wal Mart was quite successful even before it went international.
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Trump Jr 2024!!!!



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  3. #272
    Even from a global wealth perspective free trade is a dumb idea.

    Option 1) Buy a wooden chair from your neighbor for $30, hand-made with lumber from his land
    Option 2) Buy a wooden chair from China for $25, and pack and ship it 8,000 miles

    With option #1, the world as a whole gained $30 in wealth.

    With option #2, the world only really gained $5 in wealth. $20 was literally thrown in the ocean to get it shipped 8,000 miles.
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Trump Jr 2024!!!!



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  5. #273
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTexan View Post
    True, although I think Wal Mart was quite successful even before it went international.
    Yep. They were regional, and could have gone national under your scenario. But they wouldn't do it via importing cheap products from China.
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul

    Proponent of real science.
    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  6. #274
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTexan View Post
    If you hate America, look at it then at a smaller scale.

    Replace "America" with "your family & friends".

    Would you rather:
    1) Buy a $30 lawn chair from your friend, who frequents your shop often in turn, or
    2) Buy a $29 lawn chair from some random dude in China so he can spend it in China

    Is the $1 savings worth it?
    I don't hate America. Your appeal to emotion is probably working on douche nozzles like Swordsmyth, but I'm entirely uncompelled by it.

    "America" and "my family & friends" are in nearly no way analogous.

  7. #275
    Quote Originally Posted by A Son of Liberty View Post
    I don't hate America. Your appeal to emotion is probably working on douche nozzles like Swordsmyth, but I'm entirely uncompelled by it.
    It was sarcasm. I don't care if you hate America. I hate America. But as long as I'm an involuntary member, I may as well want the best for America. Because it involuntarily includes me.

    "America" and "my family & friends" are in nearly no way analogous.
    They are, though. Economic effects that happen at the micro level, happen exactly the same at the macro level, unless there's a compelling reason to think otherwise.
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Trump Jr 2024!!!!

  8. #276
    If tomorrow every country except the US just disappeared from the globe, the people gone, and the land replaced with oceans,

    It would take like 1 year to recover economically.

    Then things would keep going on as they always have.

    And we would be just as productive as we have always been.

    And you would still have affordable lawn chairs.

    Trade with other nations, is overrated.
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Trump Jr 2024!!!!

  9. #277
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTexan View Post
    I use China as an example but really the above formulation applies to every transaction with any person or any country.

    If we are in agreement that:
    A consumer purchase is a transfer of future economic security from one person to another.

    Can we agree then that the below is true?
    When America imports consumer goods, it has a negative effect on America's economic future and corresponding positive effect on the other country's economic future
    When America exports consumer goods, it has a positive effect on America's economic future and corresponding negative effect on the other country's economic future
    When America builds and then consumes those consumer goods, it has a positive effect on both America's present and America's futures

    If you disagree with the above statements, can you tell me why we can agree that it can be true for an individual transaction, but is no longer true when considered in the aggregate?
    I already did. Green squares aren't eaten or used as decoration. They ultimately flow back to the US either in the form of investment or in purchasing products that will be exported to China. If imports made the US poorer, then the value of the dollar would drop relative to Yuan until you hit a new equilibrium where imports and exports would be in balance if you include investment.



    A pretty good rule of thumb in life is whatever Milton Friedman says on any topic is correct. And if you think you know better you need a really good explanation and it helps to have other smart people in the field of economics on your side. Instead the only economists against free trade are far left wing economists like James Galbraith and Joseph Stiglitz and Dean Baker. That is not good company. You are choosing between Milton Friedman and the guy who thinks Hugo Chavez was doing a great job. https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna21246144
    Last edited by Krugminator2; 01-16-2022 at 11:49 AM.

  10. #278
    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post
    I already did. Green squares aren't eaten or used as decoration. They ultimately flow back to the US either in the form of investment or in purchasing products that will be exported to China. If imports made the US poorer, then the value of the dollar would drop relative to Yuan until you hit a new equilibrium where imports and exports would be in balance if you include investment.



    A pretty good rule of thumb in life is whatever Milton Friedman says on any topic is correct. And if you think you know better you need a really good explanation and it helps to have other smart people in the field of economics on your side. Instead the only economists against free trade are far left wing economists like James Galbraith and Joseph Stiglitz and Dean Baker. That is not good company. You are choosing between Milton Friedman and the guy who thinks Hugo Chavez was doing a great job. https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna21246144
    First off, USDCNY has indeed dropped since its peak in 1994. (though I disagree that should be used as a measuring stick of relative wealth anyway)

    Second, you're making a lot of assumptions that aren't backed up by reality. You are assuming that every dollar sent out flows back to the US. They don't. You're also assuming that the dollars flow back to the US for the same class of goods (consumer vs b2b). Again - they don't.
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Trump Jr 2024!!!!

  11. #279
    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post
    A pretty good rule of thumb in life is whatever Milton Friedman says on any topic is correct. And if you think you know better you need a really good explanation and it helps to have other smart people in the field of economics on your side. Instead the only economists against free trade are far left wing economists like James Galbraith and Joseph Stiglitz and Dean Baker. That is not good company. You are choosing between Milton Friedman and the guy who thinks Hugo Chavez was doing a great job. https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna21246144
    I don't need someone else to tell me how I should think. Economics is not hard - its just human action, and I am just as much human as any of those "economists".
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Trump Jr 2024!!!!

  12. #280
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTexan View Post
    I don't need someone else to tell me how I should think. Economics is not hard - its just human action, and I am just as much human as any of those "economists".
    That's a point of difference. I know that I know nothing. Therefore I listen to people who spent their life to studying a topic and have a track record of being right and who have worked critiqued and debated among other people who have spent their lives studying a topic.

    Maybe you are Ray Dalio and worth listening to. Most likely you aren't so I'll stick to citing Milton.



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  14. #281
    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post
    That's a point of difference. I know that I know nothing. Therefore I listen to people who spent their life to studying a topic and have a track record of being right and who have worked critiqued and debated among other people who have spent their lives studying a topic.

    Maybe you are Ray Dalio and worth listening to. Most likely you aren't so I'll stick to citing Milton.
    Pretty much any economic theory can be "right" depending on how you choose to interpet it and in what context. Most economic theories are shielded from rational criticism by hiding behind the complexities of global human behavior.

    It's only by shedding the complexities and looking at first principles can you actually understand something. You don't need an expert to understand first principles.
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Trump Jr 2024!!!!

  15. #282
    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post
    I already did. Green squares aren't eaten or used as decoration. They ultimately flow back to the US either in the form of investment or in purchasing products that will be exported to China. If imports made the US poorer, then the value of the dollar would drop relative to Yuan until you hit a new equilibrium where imports and exports would be in balance if you include investment.
    You will reach that equilibrium when the American people are as poor and enslaved as the Chinese.
    Only you won't even reach it then while China tariffs us and subsidizes their own industries.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  16. #283
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    You will reach that equilibrium when the American people are as poor and enslaved as the Chinese.
    Only you won't even reach it then while China tariffs us and subsidizes their own industries.
    Your free market capitalism causes poverty takes are amusing and useful.

    I also enjoy your immigrants ruin the country takes (all the while typing and using technology that was likely developed by immigrants). Your businesses shouldn't have free association with speech codes or vaccines takes but kicking blacks off the lunch counter should be allowed takes are great. I am sure I am missing other takes but it gets hard to juggle the dog's breakfast of agrarian populism and theocracy that you and phil and RJB and sammy have.
    Last edited by Krugminator2; 01-16-2022 at 09:48 PM.

  17. #284
    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post
    Your free market capitalism causes poverty takes are amusing and useful.

    I also enjoy your immigrants ruin the country takes (all the while typing and using technology that was likely developed by immigrants). Your businesses shouldn't have free association with speech codes or vaccines takes but kicking blacks off the lunch counter should be allowed takes are great. I am sure I am missing other takes but it gets hard to juggle the dog's breakfast of agrarian populism and theocracy that you and phil and RJB and sammy have.
    Nice strawmen.
    "Free trade" is not free market capitalism, it is globalist capitalism.
    It subjects the free market to the distortions of unfree markets, even if the whole world was composed of free market countries it wouldn't be worth the possible increase in wealth that it might create in theory to lose our independence to interdependence.
    And since the world is not and never has been economically uniform it is an absolute fact that the imbalances will be used to enrich the powerful and impoverish the weak, the whole pie may or may not be larger but the piece that the American middle class gets to eat is diminished both as a fraction of the pie and in simple weight/calorie count.

    Immigrants are ruining the country and they are not worth the inventions that they may or may not have created and that may or may not have been invented by others instead. (not to mention that we can allow some limited immigration of the best while excluding the barbarian hordes)
    And you do know that we can obtain inventions created in other countries, right? we do it all the time.

    Businesses have every right to speech codes for their employees on the clock, they do not have a right to them for their customers when they collude with government and monopolize the speech industry while advertising free speech.
    Kicking minorities out of the diner is a borderline issue, it can be argued either way, especially if the diner is the only source of food in town.
    Forcing people to inject experimental substances into their bodies in order to participate in the economy while colluding with government is unconscionable and absolutely not anyone's right.

    I'll take a "dog's breakfast of agrarian populism and theocracy" over your lockstep globalist positions every time and so did the Founding Fathers.
    Last edited by Swordsmyth; 01-16-2022 at 11:26 PM.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

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