How do you refute pro-vaccine arguments?

[sdsubball23]

I'm just looking for an honest rebuttal to those who claim the Vaccines are the answer to stopping COVID. I'm not trying to promote the vaccine here as I'm not interested in taking the vaccine myself. How would you all respond to these pro-vaccine arguments?

1) Vaccines are safe and effective and help reduce chances of being hospitalized and dying.

2) Vaccine adverse events are very small in number, so the claim is they are safe. To be fair, over a billion doses have been given and a very small percentage have had adverse events. Just look at all the athletes in our country, I only know of one athlete who had an adverse event out of 100s if not 1000s (Brandon Goodwin of the NBA).

3) Over 700k have died from COVID so they push the vaccine to help resolve mortality issues.

4) Viral load stays in the unvaccinated longer than the vaccinated so it's implied that the unvaccinated spread the virus more than the vaccinated.

5) Hospitals are being burdened and could cause those seeking non-covid treatment from not being able to seek the treatment.

6) If Vaccines aren't the answer, then what alternatives do we have that are just as safe and effective or better than vaccines?

[Anti Globalist]

1. Rushed out experimental vaccines are in no way safe or effective. It roughly takes 2-5 years to develop a good vaccine. We've seen plenty of stories of people fully vaccinated and still testing positive for COVID. In Australia, there are more vaccinated people in hospitals than unvaccinated.

2. Theres a lot of stories of people developing blood clots, myocarditis, women having issues with their pregnancy, and dying after taking this vaccination. According to the latest VAERS report, a little over 17,000 have died. OSHA has released a statement saying they are no longer going to keep track of side effects. We also don't know what the long term effects of this vaccine are going to be, something our politicians are refusing to talk about.

3. This is hard to believe considering COVID deaths have been inflated since this whole thing began. There are videos of health officials stating that if someones cause of death is from an accident, but they tested positive for COVID, they are being counted as a COVID death. There's also a difference between dying with COVID and dying from COVID.

4. 98% of Israel's population is fully vaccinated. It is not preventing the spread of the virus. Those that have taken the COVID vaccine are the real super spreaders. It is impossible to vaccinate your way out of a pandemic.

5. If a hospital is being burdened with so many COVID patients, it's not because of the virus. It's because the hospital has poor management skills. Might be best to avoid these kinds of hospitals and go to ones that have things under control and can freely focus on other health issues that people have.

6. HCQ and ivermectin have been proven to be very effective at fighting against COVID. You can also boost your immune system by getting plenty of exercise, vitamin D and zinc. In the event that you recover from COVID, your body has natural immunity meaning taking the vaccine is unnecessary.

[Occam's Banana]

I'm just looking for an honest rebuttal to those who claim the Vaccines are the answer to stopping COVID. I'm not trying to promote the vaccine here as I'm not interested in taking the vaccine myself. How would you all respond to these pro-vaccine arguments?

1) Vaccines are safe and effective and help reduce chances of being hospitalized and dying.

2) Vaccine adverse events are very small in number, so the claim is they are safe. To be fair, over a billion doses have been given and a very small percentage have had adverse events. Just look at all the athletes in our country, I only know of one athlete who had an adverse event out of 100s if not 1000s (Brandon Goodwin of the NBA).

3) Over 700k have died from COVID so they push the vaccine to help resolve mortality issues.

4) Viral load stays in the unvaccinated longer than the vaccinated so it's implied that the unvaccinated spread the virus more than the vaccinated.

5) Hospitals are being burdened and could cause those seeking non-covid treatment from not being able to seek the treatment.

6) If Vaccines aren't the answer, then what alternatives do we have that are just as safe and effective or better than vaccines?

1) I don't want to change your mind or argue with you, but I don't want to share a country with you either.

2) I don't want to change your mind or argue with you, but I don't want to share a country with you either.

3) I don't want to change your mind or argue with you, but I don't want to share a country with you either.

4) I don't want to change your mind or argue with you, but I don't want to share a country with you either.

5) I don't want to change your mind or argue with you, but I don't want to share a country with you either.

6) I don't want to change your mind or argue with you, but I don't want to share a country with you either.

[acptulsa]

Adverse effects are numerous, and not uncommon. Benefits seem to be nonexistent. Compare high-"vax" countries like Singapore, Israel and the British Isles with low-vax countries like Finland, Sweden and Norway.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...ight=Singapore

The numbers say that "vaccine" has no benefit whatsoever. Quite the opposite.

[tod evans]

A vaccination is suppose to prevent you from acquiring a disease.

If you don't get the disease you can't spread it let alone die from it.

Their injection might lessen symptoms of covid or it might not, their injection does not 'slow the spread', just look at the data (science)...

Their propaganda alone should give any sane person pause when considering what concoctions he injects.

Don't debate their talking points, simply ask "What has any government ever done that has proven good for the people?" and let them try to explain their position.

[luctor-et-emergo]

I'm just looking for an honest rebuttal to those who claim the Vaccines are the answer to stopping COVID. I'm not trying to promote the vaccine here as I'm not interested in taking the vaccine myself. How would you all respond to these pro-vaccine arguments?

1) Vaccines are safe and effective and help reduce chances of being hospitalized and dying.

2) Vaccine adverse events are very small in number, so the claim is they are safe. To be fair, over a billion doses have been given and a very small percentage have had adverse events. Just look at all the athletes in our country, I only know of one athlete who had an adverse event out of 100s if not 1000s (Brandon Goodwin of the NBA).

3) Over 700k have died from COVID so they push the vaccine to help resolve mortality issues.

4) Viral load stays in the unvaccinated longer than the vaccinated so it's implied that the unvaccinated spread the virus more than the vaccinated.

5) Hospitals are being burdened and could cause those seeking non-covid treatment from not being able to seek the treatment.

6) If Vaccines aren't the answer, then what alternatives do we have that are just as safe and effective or better than vaccines?

Freedom ?

[69360]

I don't. I'll never take their vax, but I have better things to do with my life than argue over the virus.

[CaptUSA]

1) Vaccines are safe and effective and help reduce chances of being hospitalized and dying.
Maybe. Maybe not. The evidence is still inconclusive to me, but if you want to take your chances, go ahead.

2) Vaccine adverse events are very small in number, so the claim is they are safe. To be fair, over a billion doses have been given and a very small percentage have had adverse events. Just look at all the athletes in our country, I only know of one athlete who had an adverse event out of 100s if not 1000s (Brandon Goodwin of the NBA).
The same could be said for Covid. How many athletes have been hospitalized or died from Covid? So, if my risk is already VERY small, why would I take a "vaccine" that only adds a new risk just to potentially get a VERY small marginal benefit?

3) Over 700k have died from COVID so they push the vaccine to help resolve mortality issues.
Yeah, they really care about you - that's what this is all about. They could have gotten a bigger marginal benefit gain by telling everyone to get sunshine, exercise, reduce stress and eat healthy - but how would Big Pharma rake in billions from those policies?

4) Viral load stays in the unvaccinated longer than the vaccinated so it's implied that the unvaccinated spread the virus more than the vaccinated.
The data don't seem to support that hypothesis, but if you believe it, go ahead and take the chance.

5) Hospitals are being burdened and could cause those seeking non-covid treatment from not being able to seek the treatment.
Hospitals aren't being burdened. They set up tents and triage centers when this all started and got billions of dollars to prepare. Then tore them all down. If any hospital is having issues, it's not because of patients, it's because of poor management. Quit letting the press mislead you.

6) If Vaccines aren't the answer, then what alternatives do we have that are just as safe and effective or better than vaccines?
Exercise, sunlight, fresh air, reduced stress, healthy foods... If you're already doing those things, you have nothing to worry about. If you start doing those things, you can easily lower risk more than you could from a leaky, ineffective vaccine. And, you'll have the benefit of knowing that you're not contributing to more dangerous variants caused by a weak vaccine.

Ultimately, you can do whatever you want - just don't force it on anyone else. And quit allowing politicians and bureaucrats off the hook when they pretend they can make you safe if you just give up your wealth and liberty.

[jmdrake]

I'm just looking for an honest rebuttal to those who claim the Vaccines are the answer to stopping COVID. I'm not trying to promote the vaccine here as I'm not interested in taking the vaccine myself. How would you all respond to these pro-vaccine arguments?

1) Vaccines are safe and effective and help reduce chances of being hospitalized and dying.

They are NOT safe. And there are multiple vaccines with various levels of safety. One study showed that boys are 6 more times as likely to develop myocarditis from the Pfizer vaccine then they are to be hospitalized by COVID.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...suggests-study

And some European countries have suspended the Moderna vaccine in people under 30 over myocarditis concerns.

https://www.malaysiasun.com/news/271...ccines-for-men
https://www.rfi.fr/en/france/2021101...oses-in-france
https://abcnews.go.com/Business/wire...eople-80432245

As for "effective", a Harvard study shows that countries with high vaccinations rates have the same or higher number of COVID cases per million as countries with low vaccination rates.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...ccinated-areas

2) Vaccine adverse events are very small in number, so the claim is they are safe. To be fair, over a billion doses have been given and a very small percentage have had adverse events. Just look at all the athletes in our country, I only know of one athlete who had an adverse event out of 100s if not 1000s (Brandon Goodwin of the NBA).

Depends on the population. As pointed I pointed out to your point #1, young boys are more likely to have a severe adverse reaction than they are to be hospitalized from COVID.

3) Over 700k have died from COVID so they push the vaccine to help resolve mortality issues.

And they pushed burning Jews at the stake to stop the black plague too. Just because someone pushes a solution doesn't mean they are right. More people died from the Spanish flu vaccine than died from the flu.

https://lichtnahrung2015.wordpress.c...nish-flu-1918/

Don't want to believe a blog? How about the NIH which said most of the "flu" deaths were really from baterial pneumonia?

https://www.nih.gov/news-events/news...uenza-pandemic

And human to human transmission of the 1918 flu was never confirmed, despite studies where the infected would litterally breath into the nostrils of uninfected, or even giving uninfected blood from the infected.

https://medium.com/microbial-instinc...d-9f91b37c4dd8

4) Viral load stays in the unvaccinated longer than the vaccinated so it's implied that the unvaccinated spread the virus more than the vaccinated.

Source? But even if your right (and I doubt that), that doesn't change the fact that, according to god king Fauci, there's as much viral load in breakthrough cases in the vaccinated as in the unvaccinated. Which means that the vaccinated are just as likely to spread while contagious as the unvaccinated. Now, according to your sources, you are more likely to have severe symptoms if you are unvaccinated. Which means the vaccinated, with just as much viral load as the unvaccinated, are more likely to be walking around thinking they are not sick and infecting others. That's what happened when the Democratic lawmakers from Texas spread COVID to Biden's cabinet. They were ALL vaccinated.

5) Hospitals are being burdened and could cause those seeking non-covid treatment from not being able to seek the treatment.

Simply not true at all. Just a talking point. And even if it were true (it's not), then why fire first line workers who don't get vaccinated even when many of them have natural immunity from already having had COVID? The data shows that you have 17 to 27 times the immunity from getting over COVID than you do from being vaccinated alone.

https://www.israelnationalnews.com/N...ws.aspx/312538

And the Cleveland Clinic study showed no benefit to being vaccinated if you already had COVID.

https://www.news-medical.net/news/20...nic-study.aspx

The issue has never been a lack of beds. It's been a lack of nurses to tend those beds. And Biden is causing nurses to be fired. But even the non issue of hospitilization is going away. COVID hospitlization dropped in Alabama back in September by 33% in just 3 weeks and the situation continues to improve.

https://www.wsfa.com/2021/09/20/alab...VID%20patients.

6) If Vaccines aren't the answer, then what alternatives do we have that are just as safe and effective or better than vaccines?

1) Poor gut health is connected to COVID. That can be fixed with proper nutrician, probiotics and laxitives. (That's how I got over COVID in 2 to 5 days).

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...ovid+full+crap

2) Exercise greatly improved COVID outcomes. (Already gave you a link).

3) Hydrotherapy can potentially aid in COVID recovery.

https://www.hydro4covid.com/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33303302/
https://www.adventistreview.org/conc...ay-play-a-role

4) Sunlight kills COVID even under the skin. And no, you don't have to stick a light tube down your lungs.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7194064/

5) Being temperate may be important. Studies have shown that heavy alchohol consumption reduces them immune systems ability to fight off viral and bacterial infection.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7239251/

And yet, the government early on kept liquor stores open while closing churches.

6) Simply breathing fresh air helps fight COVID. But it needs to be fresh air. Air conditioning spreads COVID.

https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/heal...hing-exercises
https://www.epa.gov/coronavirus/air-...virus-covid-19

At a time when people needed to be out in the fresh air the most, Fauci said close the parks and beaches.

7) A study fromt the Cleveland Clinic showed that melatonin decreased COVID risks in whites by 25% and in blacks by 54%. You can get melatonin in supplements, from food, and your body naturally produces it from proper rest.

https://health.clevelandclinic.org/c...reat-covid-19/

8) Trust in God. Everything I listed above has been taught by the Seventh Day Adventist Church since the late 1800s. We believe that was from inspiration from God. Regardless, it's all been proven true. Barbara O'Neil, an SDA health evangelist, was persecute in Austrailia back in 2018 because she was falsely accused of pushing these over modern medicine. The truth is that she always maintained people should go to the doctor as well, but that natural healing was something that should also be considered. This is her story:

[sdsubball23]

1. Rushed out experimental vaccines are in no way safe or effective. It roughly takes 2-5 years to develop a good vaccine. We've seen plenty of stories of people fully vaccinated and still testing positive for COVID. In Australia, there are more vaccinated people in hospitals than unvaccinated.

2. Theres a lot of stories of people developing blood clots, myocarditis, women having issues with their pregnancy, and dying after taking this vaccination. According to the latest VAERS report, a little over 17,000 have died. OSHA has released a statement saying they are no longer going to keep track of side effects. We also don't know what the long term effects of this vaccine are going to be, something our politicians are refusing to talk about.

3. This is hard to believe considering COVID deaths have been inflated since this whole thing began. There are videos of health officials stating that if someones cause of death is from an accident, but they tested positive for COVID, they are being counted as a COVID death. There's also a difference between dying with COVID and dying from COVID.

4. 98% of Israel's population is fully vaccinated. It is not preventing the spread of the virus. Those that have taken the COVID vaccine are the real super spreaders. It is impossible to vaccinate your way out of a pandemic.

5. If a hospital is being burdened with so many COVID patients, it's not because of the virus. It's because the hospital has poor management skills. Might be best to avoid these kinds of hospitals and go to ones that have things under control and can freely focus on other health issues that people have.

6. HCQ and ivermectin have been proven to be very effective at fighting against COVID. You can also boost your immune system by getting plenty of exercise, vitamin D and zinc. In the event that you recover from COVID, your body has natural immunity meaning taking the vaccine is unnecessary.

Appreciate your thoughts. But what do you think of my responses?

1) I agree, but so far over a billion doses have been given and in the US alone we have 58% fully vaccinated and tiny percent have had adverse events. Nobody I know that's been vaccinated has had any adverse events. Maybe some have because I know two people that have had some recent health issues arise, but they haven't said it's due to the vaccine and I don't know for sure.

Where do you have the stats for Australia having more vaccinated in the hospital?

2) I hear stories too, but overall the numbers seem very small don't you think? Maybe there are a lot of unreported events? But with the data we have so far, I feel as if it's hard to argue against the safety of the vaccine so far. How else would you argue against this?

3) How would you respond to those that rely on the CDC and gov't to give their official data on COVID deaths? I'm kinda skeptical myself regarding the numbers.

[BortSimpson]

Check the "Estimated Study Completion Date" for Pfizer clinical trials for "SAFETY, TOLERABILITY, IMMUNOGENICITY, AND EFFICACY"

https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04368728

Sponsor:

BioNTech SE

Collaborator:

Pfizer

Information provided by (Responsible Party):

BioNTech SE

Study Design

Go to

Study Type :	Interventional (Clinical Trial)
Estimated Enrollment :	43998 participants
Allocation:	Randomized
Intervention Model:	Parallel Assignment
Masking:	Triple (Participant, Care Provider, Investigator)
Primary Purpose:	Prevention
Official Title:	A PHASE 1/2/3, PLACEBO-CONTROLLED, RANDOMIZED, OBSERVER-BLIND, DOSE-FINDING STUDY TO EVALUATE THE SAFETY, TOLERABILITY, IMMUNOGENICITY, AND EFFICACY OF SARS-COV-2 RNA VACCINE CANDIDATES AGAINST COVID-19 IN HEALTHY INDIVIDUALS
Actual Study Start Date :	April 29, 2020
Estimated Primary Completion Date :	May 2, 2023
Estimated Study Completion Date :	May 2, 2023

[BortSimpson]

This is the clinical trial for Moderna testing "Efficacy, Safety, and Immunogenicity".

Estimated Study Completion Date : October 27, 2022

https://www.clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04470427

Sponsor:

ModernaTX, Inc.

Collaborators:

Biomedical Advanced Research and Development Authority

National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases (NIAID)

Information provided by (Responsible Party):

ModernaTX, Inc.

Study Design

Go to

Study Type :	Interventional (Clinical Trial)
Actual Enrollment :	30420 participants
Allocation:	Randomized
Intervention Model:	Parallel Assignment
Masking:	Quadruple (Participant, Care Provider, Investigator, Outcomes Assessor)
Masking Description:	Part A is observer-blind. During Part B participants may request to be unblinded by scheduling a Participant Decision clinic visit.
Primary Purpose:	Prevention
Official Title:	A Phase 3, Randomized, Stratified, Observer-Blind, Placebo-Controlled Study to Evaluate the Efficacy, Safety, and Immunogenicity of mRNA-1273 SARS-CoV-2 Vaccine in Adults Aged 18 Years and Older
Actual Study Start Date :	July 27, 2020
Estimated Primary Completion Date :	October 27, 2022
Estimated Study Completion Date :	October 27, 2022

[acptulsa]

Nobody I know that's been vaccinated has had any adverse events.

How nice for you. I know--knew--a woman just entering middle age whose heart seized up as a result of myocarditis. May your luck hold out for you.

[TheTexan]

1) I don't want to change your mind or argue with you, but I don't want to share a country with you either.

2) I don't want to change your mind or argue with you, but I don't want to share a country with you either.

3) I don't want to change your mind or argue with you, but I don't want to share a country with you either.

4) I don't want to change your mind or argue with you, but I don't want to share a country with you either.

5) I don't want to change your mind or argue with you, but I don't want to share a country with you either.

6) I don't want to change your mind or argue with you, but I don't want to share a country with you either.

+rep x100

[cjm]

Pro-jab arguments are like flat earth arguments or "we need government for roads" arguments. They only appear to take the form of science or fact based arguments. At their core, those arguments are professions of faith and no amount of "refuting claims" can change what someone believes. I don't waste my time (any more).

[tod evans]

They are NOT safe. And there are multiple vaccines with various levels of safety. One study showed that boys are 6 more times as likely to develop myocarditis from the Pfizer vaccine then they are to be hospitalized by COVID.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...suggests-study

And some European countries have suspended the Moderna vaccine in people under 30 over myocarditis concerns.

https://www.malaysiasun.com/news/271...ccines-for-men
https://www.rfi.fr/en/france/2021101...oses-in-france
https://abcnews.go.com/Business/wire...eople-80432245

As for "effective", a Harvard study shows that countries with high vaccinations rates have the same or higher number of COVID cases per million as countries with low vaccination rates.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...ccinated-areas



Depends on the population. As pointed I pointed out to your point #1, young boys are more likely to have a severe adverse reaction than they are to be hospitalized from COVID.



And they pushed burning Jews at the stake to stop the black plague too. Just because someone pushes a solution doesn't mean they are right. More people died from the Spanish flu vaccine than died from the flu.

https://lichtnahrung2015.wordpress.c...nish-flu-1918/

Don't want to believe a blog? How about the NIH which said most of the "flu" deaths were really from baterial pneumonia?

https://www.nih.gov/news-events/news...uenza-pandemic

And human to human transmission of the 1918 flu was never confirmed, despite studies where the infected would litterally breath into the nostrils of uninfected, or even giving uninfected blood from the infected.

https://medium.com/microbial-instinc...d-9f91b37c4dd8



Source? But even if your right (and I doubt that), that doesn't change the fact that, according to god king Fauci, there's as much viral load in breakthrough cases in the vaccinated as in the unvaccinated. Which means that the vaccinated are just as likely to spread while contagious as the unvaccinated. Now, according to your sources, you are more likely to have severe symptoms if you are unvaccinated. Which means the vaccinated, with just as much viral load as the unvaccinated, are more likely to be walking around thinking they are not sick and infecting others. That's what happened when the Democratic lawmakers from Texas spread COVID to Biden's cabinet. They were ALL vaccinated.



Simply not true at all. Just a talking point. And even if it were true (it's not), then why fire first line workers who don't get vaccinated even when many of them have natural immunity from already having had COVID? The data shows that you have 17 to 27 times the immunity from getting over COVID than you do from being vaccinated alone.

https://www.israelnationalnews.com/N...ws.aspx/312538

And the Cleveland Clinic study showed no benefit to being vaccinated if you already had COVID.

https://www.news-medical.net/news/20...nic-study.aspx

The issue has never been a lack of beds. It's been a lack of nurses to tend those beds. And Biden is causing nurses to be fired. But even the non issue of hospitilization is going away. COVID hospitlization dropped in Alabama back in September by 33% in just 3 weeks and the situation continues to improve.

https://www.wsfa.com/2021/09/20/alab...VID%20patients.



1) Poor gut health is connected to COVID. That can be fixed with proper nutrician, probiotics and laxitives. (That's how I got over COVID in 2 to 5 days).

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...ovid+full+crap

2) Exercise greatly improved COVID outcomes. (Already gave you a link).

3) Hydrotherapy can potentially aid in COVID recovery.

https://www.hydro4covid.com/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33303302/
https://www.adventistreview.org/conc...ay-play-a-role

4) Sunlight kills COVID even under the skin. And no, you don't have to stick a light tube down your lungs.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7194064/

5) Being temperate may be important. Studies have shown that heavy alchohol consumption reduces them immune systems ability to fight off viral and bacterial infection.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7239251/

And yet, the government early on kept liquor stores open while closing churches.

6) Simply breathing fresh air helps fight COVID. But it needs to be fresh air. Air conditioning spreads COVID.

https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/heal...hing-exercises
https://www.epa.gov/coronavirus/air-...virus-covid-19

At a time when people needed to be out in the fresh air the most, Fauci said close the parks and beaches.

7) A study fromt the Cleveland Clinic showed that melatonin decreased COVID risks in whites by 25% and in blacks by 54%. You can get melatonin in supplements, from food, and your body naturally produces it from proper rest.

https://health.clevelandclinic.org/c...reat-covid-19/

8) Trust in God. Everything I listed above has been taught by the Seventh Day Adventist Church since the late 1800s. We believe that was from inspiration from God. Regardless, it's all been proven true. Barbara O'Neil, an SDA health evangelist, was persecute in Austrailia back in 2018 because she was falsely accused of pushing these over modern medicine. The truth is that she always maintained people should go to the doctor as well, but that natural healing was something that should also be considered. This is her story:

I just got around to watching this video, thanks for posting it!

I've been a Barbra O'Neil fan for years and had no idea the problems she was having with the AU government.

Anyone who likes natural remedies would do themselves a favor by seeking out her lectures.

[GlennwaldSnowdenAssanged]

[Brian4Liberty]

How do you refute <insert left wing arguments>?

There may be a pattern here...

[ClaytonB]

I'm just looking for an honest rebuttal to those who claim the Vaccines are the answer to stopping COVID. I'm not trying to promote the vaccine here as I'm not interested in taking the vaccine myself. How would you all respond to these pro-vaccine arguments?

1) Vaccines are safe and effective and help reduce chances of being hospitalized and dying.

2) Vaccine adverse events are very small in number, so the claim is they are safe. To be fair, over a billion doses have been given and a very small percentage have had adverse events. Just look at all the athletes in our country, I only know of one athlete who had an adverse event out of 100s if not 1000s (Brandon Goodwin of the NBA).

3) Over 700k have died from COVID so they push the vaccine to help resolve mortality issues.

4) Viral load stays in the unvaccinated longer than the vaccinated so it's implied that the unvaccinated spread the virus more than the vaccinated.

5) Hospitals are being burdened and could cause those seeking non-covid treatment from not being able to seek the treatment.

6) If Vaccines aren't the answer, then what alternatives do we have that are just as safe and effective or better than vaccines?

According to this table from the Mayo Clinic (grabbed today):



... nearly 100% of the major risk groups have received the first vaccine dose. So, the entire narrative that "we have to maintain economy-busting epidemic-control policies because otherwise the doomsday-virus would swamp the capacity of hospitals" is busted. Not to mention that we've had 18 months to put into place additional medical flex-infrastructure in the event of an outbreak (perhaps of something completely other than the doomsday-virus). If you're 18-50 and you want to run the risk of coming down with it, that's your choice. Yes, that presents some very tiny, yet real, additional risk to others. But you present a vastly greater additional risk to others (thousands of times greater) every time you get behind the wheel, regardless of whether you're insured (insurance does not and cannot reduce the risk you pose to others when behind the wheel).

In short, the entire doomsday-virus narrative is completely busted, and has been completely busted from the moment the first provisionally-approved dose of vaccine rolled out of the lab. It was always political theater but now it's transparently political theater. Throughout this entire "epidemic" the infection rates in Democrat-controlled states was higher than in Republican-controlled states, just go back and look at the historical infection-rate maps, they look pretty much the same as the US political map for any recent Presidential election. I haven't done a county-by-county comparison, but it might be even more enlightening in this regard.

If I need to take the vaccine for some legitimate reason, I'll take it. But otherwise, no, I don't trust the same bungling morons that have screwed up on every possible dimension that you can screw up, and yet somehow keep managing to pass themselves off as "the experts in the room". I won't voluntarily become a lab-rat.

[fisharmor]

1) Vaccines are safe and effective and help reduce chances of being hospitalized and dying.

We have known since April 2020 that the numbers on hospitalization and death are complete bull$#@!, and the numbers for reducing chances of hospitalization and death are being presented by the same people.

2) Vaccine adverse events are very small in number, so the claim is they are safe. To be fair, over a billion doses have been given and a very small percentage have had adverse events. Just look at all the athletes in our country, I only know of one athlete who had an adverse event out of 100s if not 1000s (Brandon Goodwin of the NBA).

The same people who have presented bull$#@! data for nearly two years have also logged thousands of deaths in the US that 'happened after vaccination' but refuse to admit there is a potential causal relationship and just like every other VAERS reported case going back to 1986, there is zero follow-up investigation. So they want it both ways. They want any dead body in any way associated with COVID antibodies to count as a COVID death, but they want every death that happens shortly after vaccination to remain an utter mystery.
That's hard proof that they're playing faster and looser with the facts than most people can even conceive.

3) Over 700k have died from COVID so they push the vaccine to help resolve mortality issues.

Already addressed.

4) Viral load stays in the unvaccinated longer than the vaccinated so it's implied that the unvaccinated spread the virus more than the vaccinated.

Who says so? The same people who got so tired of it being brought up that there were no studies saying masks worked that they simply published some data-free studies that say masks work, after the start of the mask mandates? I'm not sure why anyone capable of typing out questions like this haven't gotten by themselves to the point of realizing the people pushing this narrative have no concern at all for truth.

5) Hospitals are being burdened and could cause those seeking non-covid treatment from not being able to seek the treatment.

Hospitals are being burdened?
Think back to the beginning of all this when they were bringing in hospital ships (which all went totally unused) to high population areas to help ease that burden. What were they saying?
"We don't have enough beds."
That went TOTALLY unchallenged.
How $#@!ing long has mankind known how to make a bed? 20000 years? And we're expected to just take that statement at face value?
What they never divulged, at least not clearly, was that the real statement is "Our state government colluded with hospitals to put a legal limit on the number of beds we're allowed to have in our hospital and we legally can't operate at greater than X capacity".
Of course they put temporary suspensions on those restrictions - and things worked themselves out. The initial problem has been gone for some time now.

What about ventilators? Again- what is the definition of a ventilator?
Is it one of the state-controlled devices that they had limited numbers of, or is it one of the devices that YouTubers immediately started publishing plans for that could serve not one, but 200 or more people at a time, using common plumbing components?

The 'burden on hospitals' issue is the most blatant and abject horse$#@! about any of this. If there is a burden or ever was a burden, or ever will be a burden, it is strictly because state regulatory bodies have CREATED AND MAINTAINED THAT BURDEN.

MOREOVER, it has come out in the last four months or so, that the initial reaction to COVID was completely contrary to the way pneumonias and other respiratory issues were handled. Here is a video of a nurse who explains in detail that up until COVID the object was to get the patient breathing, exercising, and the hell out of their bed - and this is the polar opposite of how COVID was handled. My sister is an RN who worked in New York City during the absolute worst of it in April/May 2020 and confirmed everything in this video.

https://www.bitchute.com/embed/m6tKbyYhLrGE/

So you have to ask two questions after knowing that:
1) How much of this 'burden' was actually self-imposed by dragging out the patient's convalescence, and
2) How many of these COVID 'fatalities' were actually the direct result of $#@!ty medical practice?

6) If Vaccines aren't the answer, then what alternatives do we have that are just as safe and effective or better than vaccines?

Have you had COVID? I have - my entire family was part of an outbreak involving over 50 people who weren't doing any of the nonsense and of course all got it at the same time. We had not one single fatality and most of us, including myself, had incredibly mild symptoms that were gone within a day. Dave Chapelle and Rand Paul aren't the exception: they are the NORM.

You know what was weird about the outbreak, though? It was at church, in a group of people that don't associate with each other on a regular basis. We all got it at the exact same time, after being in proximity to each other for about four hours. It was literally like a bomb went off.

Now this is an environment where we've had bugs run through the parish before notably a stomach bug in 2018, and it happened the way bugs are *supposed* to run through a population: one family gets it, maybe a couple days spaced apart, then another family gets it, one member after another, and then another family, but very rarely more than one family at a time.

COVID was not at all like that. It all happened all at once. We all got it at the same time and all had the exact same 10 day quarantine period. There is NO evolutionary advantage to that - in fact there is evolutionary pressure AGAINST a virus spreading that quickly as it burns itself out.

There is some shady $#@! going on with that.

The best argument against all your points is WHO $#@!ING CARES WHEN THE LAB THAT CREATED IT IS STILL WORKING?

What reason do you have to believe that the next one that gets 'accidentally' 'leaked' is going to be one with a 99.94% survival rate?

Why in the everfucking $#@! are we arguing about stupid bull$#@! like vaccinations when we should be arguing about the fastest way to get the people who made this thing to cut the $#@!?

[Anti Federalist]

[Working Poor]

I tell them because I am not a cannibal.

[sdsubball23]

4) Viral load stays in the unvaccinated longer than the vaccinated so it's implied that the unvaccinated spread the virus more than the vaccinated.
The data don't seem to support that hypothesis, but if you believe it, go ahead and take the chance.

Source? But even if your right (and I doubt that), that doesn't change the fact that, according to god king Fauci, there's as much viral load in breakthrough cases in the vaccinated as in the unvaccinated. Which means that the vaccinated are just as likely to spread while contagious as the unvaccinated. Now, according to your sources, you are more likely to have severe symptoms if you are unvaccinated. Which means the vaccinated, with just as much viral load as the unvaccinated, are more likely to be walking around thinking they are not sick and infecting others. That's what happened when the Democratic lawmakers from Texas spread COVID to Biden's cabinet. They were ALL vaccinated.

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1....16.21251535v3

I know it's pre-print, but it's a study discussing how vaccinated clear the virus more quickly than the unvaccinated.

[tod evans]

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1....16.21251535v3

I know it's pre-print, but it's a study discussing how vaccinated clear the virus more quickly than the unvaccinated.

Anything put forth by government/Big-Pharma should be questioned if not discounted off hand.

[TheTexan]

You can be pro-vaccine all you want - I don't care.

But if you're gonna start talking mandates, the only argument I need against that, is chambered in 5.56

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

I'm just looking for an honest rebuttal....

No, you are not.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

[sdsubball23]

There may be a pattern here...

I guess so as it's mostly if not fully coming from the left. But then the right is pretty much the opposite.

[sdsubball23]

Check the "Estimated Study Completion Date" for Pfizer clinical trials for "SAFETY, TOLERABILITY, IMMUNOGENICITY, AND EFFICACY"

https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04368728

Sponsor:

BioNTech SE

Collaborator:

Pfizer

Information provided by (Responsible Party):

BioNTech SE

Study Design

Go to

Study Type :	Interventional (Clinical Trial)
Estimated Enrollment :	43998 participants
Allocation:	Randomized
Intervention Model:	Parallel Assignment
Masking:	Triple (Participant, Care Provider, Investigator)
Primary Purpose:	Prevention
Official Title:	A PHASE 1/2/3, PLACEBO-CONTROLLED, RANDOMIZED, OBSERVER-BLIND, DOSE-FINDING STUDY TO EVALUATE THE SAFETY, TOLERABILITY, IMMUNOGENICITY, AND EFFICACY OF SARS-COV-2 RNA VACCINE CANDIDATES AGAINST COVID-19 IN HEALTHY INDIVIDUALS
Actual Study Start Date :	April 29, 2020
Estimated Primary Completion Date :	May 2, 2023
Estimated Study Completion Date :	May 2, 2023

I assume you're saying that the vaccines are still experimental? I think the Pfizer vaccine may have been approved by the fda as they said you can use it interchangeably with their new vaccine Comirnaty that was "officially" approved by the fda. Comirnaty has the same formulation as the pfizer-biontech vaccine. Though I could be wrong on what they meant.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

neg rep