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Thread: Montana becomes the first U.S. state to ban vaccine requirements for employees

  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    Now, not so fast. 100% state taxes on all federal corporate welfare sounds like free market protection to me. I'm having a hard time finding a good reason why that's not brilliant.
    What's brilliant about it? Effectively, it would amount to nothing but a net transfer of wealth from federal tax payers to state governments.

    Federal corporate welfare doesn't come from out of nowhere, after all. [1]



    [1] And it gets even worse to the extent that it's paid for by monetary expansion rather than (direct) taxation. In that case, it won't be just federal tax payers who'll end up being fleeced ...
    Last edited by Occam's Banana; 09-09-2021 at 05:21 PM.



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  3. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Banana View Post
    What's brilliant about it? This would amount to nothing but a net transfer of wealth from federal tax payers to state governments.

    Federal corporate welfare doesn't come from out of nowhere, after all.
    Yes and no. Most of it comes out Fed Reserve printers these days, though that does lead to inflation tax. That said, it's brilliant because it disincentives D.C., and because states could use it to eliminate state taxes but keep up their roads, or just refund it to taxpayers.

    D.C. steals from us and gives to multinationals, states steal it back from multinationals and put it to work for us. And any multinational that doesn't want to pay does no business in the state.

    At that point, all we have to do is stop using the FRN, and watch the cronies try to survive on an unlimited supply of a currency no one will accept.
    "Stupidity got us into this mess. Why can't it get us out?"--Will Rogers

    "All I know is what I read in the newspapers, and that's an alibi for my ignorance."--Will Rogers

  4. #123
    Does the federal govt override Montana on this matter?

  5. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by sdsubball23 View Post
    Does the federal govt override Montana on this matter?
    Defeat “COVID” Mandates by restoring the Genuine Meaning of the “privileges and immunities” and “due process” clauses

    By Publius Huldah

    Our Constitution of 1787 is a glorious Document. But we didn’t read it, we didn’t adhere to its genuine meaning, and we permitted judges to redefine its terms. We must put a stop to that. The following draft 1 Resolution for State and local governments shows how, by restoring the genuine meanings of the “privileges and immunities” and “due process” clauses, we can defeat “COVID” tyranny.

    Right to Freedom from “COVID” mandates – Model Resolution for State and local governments

    I. The Law

    WHEREAS, our Declaration of Independence is the Fundamental Act of our Founding and part of the Organic Law of our Land, and recognizes that our Rights come from the Creator God; that among these Rights are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness; and further, that the purpose of government is to secure the Rights God gave us; and

    WHEREAS, the Constitution of the United States is one of enumerated powers only; and We The People did not grant to the federal government power over the Country at Large to interfere in medical or health matters; to dictate that injections be administered to The People; to impose quarantines or “lock-downs” for real or pretended diseases; to establish internment (concentration) camps for the purpose of confining whomsoever the federal government wishes to confine; to require that The People wear devices such as face masks, or to obtain and carry internal passports; or to exercise any other such control over the sanctity of our persons; and

    WHEREAS, the First Amendment of the Constitution of the United States provides,

    “Congress shall make no law … abridging the right of the people peaceably to assemble…”; and

    WHEREAS, the privileges and immunities clauses of the Constitution of the United States provide:

    “The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States.” (Article IV, § 2)

    “…No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States…” (§1 of the Fourteenth Amendment); and

    WHEREAS, the due process clauses of the Constitution of the United States provide:

    At the Fifth Amendment, that “No person shall…be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law…”; and

    At §1 of the Fourteenth Amendment, that “…nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law…”; and


    Continue:

    https://publiushuldah.wordpress.com/
    “The right to life is the source of all rights—and the right to property is their only implementation. Without property rights, no other rights are possible. Since man has to sustain his life by his own effort, the man who has no right to the product of his effort has no means to sustain his life. The man who produces while others dispose of his product, is a slave.”

    An Agorist Primer

  6. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by sdsubball23 View Post
    Does the federal govt override Montana on this matter?
    No, not if the state really wanted to stick to it's guns. But the thing is, individual employers have the right to impose whatever restrictions they want on their employees. And many employers are thinking about keeping their business licenses and their insurance. Yes it's coercion, but in the matters of consent that makes no difference.
    "The issue is that you to define the best candidate solely based upon what they stand for." - CaptLouAlbano

    This is the mindset trying to take hold on RPF.

    "Kelly Thomas did this to himself." - FrankRep

  7. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by belian78 View Post
    No, not if the state really wanted to stick to it's guns. But the thing is, individual employers have the right to impose whatever restrictions they want on their employees. And many employers are thinking about keeping their business licenses and their insurance. Yes it's coercion, but in the matters of consent that makes no difference.
    People need to stick to their guns.
    “The right to life is the source of all rights—and the right to property is their only implementation. Without property rights, no other rights are possible. Since man has to sustain his life by his own effort, the man who has no right to the product of his effort has no means to sustain his life. The man who produces while others dispose of his product, is a slave.”

    An Agorist Primer

  8. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    People need to stick to their guns.
    Exactly right. An Australian Congressman made the accurate statement that if less than 10% of any province refused to consent and clogged up the system, that system would come to a standstill immediately. Less than 10% and much less than that stateside here.. I mean what kind of statement would that be? 100,000 people all at once saying 'I'm not in fault, I'm not showing up for court, I'm not paying any fines, $#@! you'. The 'system' would collapse on it'self in short order. And now we begin to see why so many lines of division have been drawn between us.
    "The issue is that you to define the best candidate solely based upon what they stand for." - CaptLouAlbano

    This is the mindset trying to take hold on RPF.

    "Kelly Thomas did this to himself." - FrankRep

  9. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by sdsubball23 View Post
    Does the federal govt override Montana on this matter?
    It depends. Is this still the law of the land?

    Quote Originally Posted by Amendment X
    The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
    "Stupidity got us into this mess. Why can't it get us out?"--Will Rogers

    "All I know is what I read in the newspapers, and that's an alibi for my ignorance."--Will Rogers



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  11. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    Yes and no. Most of it comes out Fed Reserve printers these days, though that does lead to inflation tax. That said, it's brilliant because it disincentives D.C., [...]
    Disincentivizes D.C. from what? They'll just redistribute their efforts across the many other carrots and sticks at their disposal, which will surely include any subsidies Montana itself receives from the feds. And meanwhile, corporations being subsidized by the feds will suddenly find that they are well-incentivized to do their business elsewhere than in Montana.

    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    [...] and because states could use it to eliminate state taxes but keep up their roads, or just refund it to taxpayers.
    It doesn't matter how any state might use it. It would still be a market-warping transfer of wealth from federal tax payers to state governments. (And doing things like giving Joe Blow in Helena money from the pocket of Joe Blow in Peoria is a good part of how we got into the mess we're in in the first place.)

    Not being a Montanan, I'm just not seeing the appeal of being made to help Montana pay the cost of fighting too much government with yet more government. Or even if I were a Montanan ...
    Last edited by Occam's Banana; 09-09-2021 at 06:03 PM.

  12. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    It depends. Is this still the law of the land?
    This would lead a reasonable person to believe neither has the right to force something like gene manipulation on an individual.
    "The issue is that you to define the best candidate solely based upon what they stand for." - CaptLouAlbano

    This is the mindset trying to take hold on RPF.

    "Kelly Thomas did this to himself." - FrankRep

  13. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Banana View Post
    What's brilliant about it? Effectively, it would amount to nothing but a net transfer of wealth from federal tax payers to state governments.

    Federal corporate welfare doesn't come from out of nowhere, after all. [1]



    [1] And it gets even worse to the extent that it's paid for by monetary expansion rather than (direct) taxation. In that case, it won't be just federal tax payers who'll end up being fleeced ...
    I'm just trying to minimize the damage. Yeah, it's a transfer of wealth from taxpayer to state government but isn't that an improvement over a transfer of wealth from taxpayer to the federal government? At least they're not going full on fascism by mandating how business owners can run their business.

    Yeah, it would be better if they could reduce the taxation up front but I'm not sure how to to that. They could secede but then they'd all die and that would suck.

    What's your solution?

  14. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by belian78 View Post
    As long as you are harming no one but yourself, not a single entity on this earth has the right to tell you what you can and can not do with your life. Period, end of story. Any that let themselves be tricked into believing otherwise deserve everything brought upon them. If you are the one to stop me from living my life, then by god make your best play. It better be a damn good one, otherwise we both die at least.
    Exactly right. Just remember that an employer can't force you to do anything. Only governments can do that.

  15. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by Madison320 View Post
    Exactly right. Just remember that an employer can't force you to do anything. Only governments can do that.
    No man on the face of this earth has the right to dictate anything to you, unless you let them.
    "The issue is that you to define the best candidate solely based upon what they stand for." - CaptLouAlbano

    This is the mindset trying to take hold on RPF.

    "Kelly Thomas did this to himself." - FrankRep

  16. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    Well, @Krugminator2? Montana "impinging on the rights of" people whose are already forced by insurance companies and lawsuit threats elicited plenty of your verbiage. They are now subject to an executive dictat with which Congress had nothing to do. Did you save any moral outrage for this?
    Yeah. It isn't hard when you have principled opinions. What Biden did is disgusting and probably unconstitutional. I think his actions on the eviction moratorium and now this are impeachable offenses.
    Last edited by Krugminator2; 09-09-2021 at 07:47 PM.

  17. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post
    Yeah. It isn't hard when you have principled opinions. What Biden did is disgusting and probably unconstitutional. I think his actions on the eviction moratorium and now this are impeachable offenses.
    In that case, the axiom under scrutiny becomes, "All's fair in love and war". D.C. clearly believes they are at war with us, and therefore nothing they can do is unfair.

    We don't want to sink to their level. We also can't afford to lose. A favorable Tenth Amendment ruling might be big. Any push back will be encouraging. A spark to light the brush is needed. At this point, I'm ready to grasp at straws.
    "Stupidity got us into this mess. Why can't it get us out?"--Will Rogers

    "All I know is what I read in the newspapers, and that's an alibi for my ignorance."--Will Rogers

  18. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post
    Yeah. It isn't hard when you have principled opinions. What Biden did is disgusting and probably unconstitutional. I think his actions on the eviction moratorium and now this are impeachable offenses.
    Man you sound really intense there.
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    This is getting silly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    It started silly.
    T.S. Eliot's The Hollow Men

    Some of you still watch the news, and it shows.

    "One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors." - Plato

    We Are Running Out of Time - Mini Me



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  20. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by Madison320 View Post
    They could secede but then they'd all die and that would suck.

    What's your solution?
    Secede and don't die. Plenty of others have done it (just ask the Baltic states, for three).

    Or nullify, resist, and refuse to comply. There are no other solutions. [1]

    Not unless you count "inching towards Hell by playing the lesser-of-evils game, until you're finally within the Devil's grasp" as a solution. I don't.



    [1] The Founding Fathers knew it ("When in the Course of human events ..."). And some of them even knew that sooner or later it would need to happen again ("What country before ever existed a century and half without a rebellion? And what country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance?").
    Last edited by Occam's Banana; 09-09-2021 at 08:29 PM.

  21. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post
    Yeah. It isn't hard when you have principled opinions. What Biden did is disgusting and probably unconstitutional. I think his actions on the eviction moratorium and now this are impeachable offenses.
    So I just found out about Biden's vaccine mandate this morning. Wow.

    This is the worst thing the government has done that I can remember in my lifetime, except for the draft, which was before my time.

  22. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Banana View Post
    [W]hen it comes to Biden's just announced anti-COVID plan, the states ought to be making it clear that any attempt by OSHA (or any other federal agency) to actually impose any of that bull$#@! on their citizens or their businesses will be resisted - up to and including the arrest and prosecution of any of their agents who attempt to actually enforce any of the feds' nonsense.
    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Banana View Post
    Secede [... or] nullify, resist, and refuse to comply. There are no other solutions.
    THIS is the way:

    https://twitter.com/AnthonySabatini/...96328569954311


    (Unfortunately, this guy also apparently supports using the state to violate private sector rights in the name of fighting "woke" corporations. But that's a separate issue, and hypocrites can still be half-right.)
    Last edited by Occam's Banana; 09-10-2021 at 07:59 PM.

  23. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Banana View Post
    THIS is the way:

    https://twitter.com/AnthonySabatini/...96328569954311


    (Unfortunately, this guy also apparently supports using the state to violate private sector rights in the name of fighting "woke" corporations. But that's a separate issue, and hypocrites can still be half-right.)

    Bill [draft] 79925 is not available to read yet.
    “The right to life is the source of all rights—and the right to property is their only implementation. Without property rights, no other rights are possible. Since man has to sustain his life by his own effort, the man who has no right to the product of his effort has no means to sustain his life. The man who produces while others dispose of his product, is a slave.”

    An Agorist Primer

  24. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    Will you accept the answer that I gave you the last time you asked me that exact same question?





    Same answer but subtract the cruise ships.
    Okay. Well the justifiable interest is the states pushing back against pressure from the federal government for employee mandates. President Biden himself has called on employers to mandate vaccines. It's likely that "proof of employee vaccination" will make it's way into the federal bidding process. It's not a level playing field where these experimental vaccines, that don't seem to be working as advertised, are just "out there" for employers (or cruise ships) to decide on their own whether or not to mandate them.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  25. #142
    Keep in mind that a MANDATE is NOT LAW.

    Turning VAXTERMINATION SHOTS into LAW is in the works.

    Now, keep in mind that a LAW is not LAWFUL unless it is CONSTITUTIONAL.
    1776 > 1984

    The FAILURE of the United States Government to operate and maintain an
    Honest Money System , which frees the ordinary man from the clutches of the money manipulators, is the single largest contributing factor to the World's current Economic Crisis.

    The Elimination of Privacy is the Architecture of Genocide

    Belief, Money, and Violence are the three ways all people are controlled

    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Our central bank is not privately owned.

  26. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    Okay. Well the justifiable interest is the states pushing back against pressure from the federal government for employee mandates.
    I don't think that you can push back on the concept of mandates by issuing a different mandate.
    "The abiding purpose of every nationalist is to secure more power and more prestige, not for himself but for the nation or other unit in which he has chosen to sink his own individuality."
    -George Orwell, "Notes on nationalism"

  27. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    I don't think that you can push back on the concept of mandates by issuing a different mandate.
    Oh, definitely. In fact, mandating an end to mandates would be establishing a mandate, so clearly that mandate would collapse upon itself and create a black hole or wormhole or something...
    "Stupidity got us into this mess. Why can't it get us out?"--Will Rogers

    "All I know is what I read in the newspapers, and that's an alibi for my ignorance."--Will Rogers



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  29. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    mandating an end to mandates
    Except that's not what was done, now was it? Instead they replaced one mandate with a different, competing mandate.

    If, instead, they had chosen to legislate that there could not be a mandate either for or against, ensuring that employers could choose, that would be an entirely different matter.


    But that sort of legislation isn't going to get anyone to donate now is it? Got to stoke the fires one way or the other...
    "The abiding purpose of every nationalist is to secure more power and more prestige, not for himself but for the nation or other unit in which he has chosen to sink his own individuality."
    -George Orwell, "Notes on nationalism"

  30. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    If, instead, they had chosen to legislate that there could not be a mandate either for or against, ensuring that employers could choose, that would be an entirely different matter.
    Would it ensure that employers could choose? There were mandates before this law passed, and before Biden weaponized OSHA. There has been coercion, corporate coercion, and suppliers for certain industries (particularly medical) are sufficiently monopolized (through overregulation) to make it stick.

    Yes, if they had decided that they would not respond to monopolized corporate coercion with government coercion because you would sit high and mighty at your keyboard and call it hypocrisy, things would be different. Montana would have been caught as flat-footed as the other 49 states when Biden started issuing federal diktats falsely giving the corporate collusion the color of law.

    No, I'm not asking, to paraphrase Will Rogers, "If liberal hypocrisy (my body, my choice anyone?) got us into this mess, why can't our own hypocrisy get us out?" What I'm saying to you is, if government is not allowed to use public coercion to counter the collusion of private entities to coerce the public, what good is it? What's the point of having it? Why am I a libertarian and not an anarchist?

    In short, no, I don't believe corporations have one single God-given right. To declare that a collective has the rights God gives a person is, as a philosophical matter, to insist that "people" can create other people by decree, instead of using the usual method. As a practical matter, it mainly serves to allow certain real people within that collective to commit crimes--real crimes with real victims--with immunity.
    Last edited by acptulsa; 09-13-2021 at 09:09 AM.
    "Stupidity got us into this mess. Why can't it get us out?"--Will Rogers

    "All I know is what I read in the newspapers, and that's an alibi for my ignorance."--Will Rogers

  31. #147
    Then you simply aren't thinking.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    I don't think that you can push back on the concept of mandates by issuing a different mandate.

  32. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    Would it ensure that employers could choose? There were mandates before this law passed, and before Biden weaponized OSHA. There has been coercion, corporate coercion, and suppliers for certain industries (particularly medical) are sufficiently monopolized (through overregulation) to make it stick.
    Regulating our way to freedom is like taxing our way to prosperity.

    More government has never led to less government.


    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    In short, no, I don't believe corporations have one single God-given right. To declare that a collective has the rights God gives a person is, as a philosophical matter, to insist that "people" can create other people by decree, instead of using the usual method.
    Who said anything about corporations? I thought we were talking about employers.
    "The abiding purpose of every nationalist is to secure more power and more prestige, not for himself but for the nation or other unit in which he has chosen to sink his own individuality."
    -George Orwell, "Notes on nationalism"

  33. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    Except that's not what was done, now was it? Instead they replaced one mandate with a different, competing mandate.

    If, instead, they had chosen to legislate that there could not be a mandate either for or against, ensuring that employers could choose, that would be an entirely different matter.


    But that sort of legislation isn't going to get anyone to donate now is it? Got to stoke the fires one way or the other...
    A state cannot legislate the feds not issue a mandate. All a state can do is blunt the effect of the mandates.

  34. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    Regulating our way to freedom is like taxing our way to prosperity.

    More government has never led to less government.




    Who said anything about corporations? I thought we were talking about employers.
    So... Now you're against the 1964 civil rights act? I'm confused. You seem to only take absolutiists positions when it's convenient.

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