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Thread: Montana becomes the first U.S. state to ban vaccine requirements for employees

  1. #181
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    If you were logicially consistent, which you are not, you would say "With regard to Montana banning emplorer vaccine mandates, I think a reasonable argument could be made in either direction."
    If the goal is to keep government out of business then I don't think that there's a reasonable argument for getting government more involved in business.


    "Government should be less involved in X but it can't be for some reason and also it needs to outlaw the thing that I don't like" is a common refrain here whenever there's some kind of government control which is... culturally appealing, let's say.

    The last time it was this popular was "government shouldn't be involved in marriage, but since it already does regulate marriage it needs to outlaw gay marriage."


    Exact same argument so far as I can tell.


    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    Now if you were a principled "Whenver government gets involved that's a bad thing" person then you would take the Barry Goldwater approach, be opposed to Jim Crow and be opposed to the CRA and take the position that there was no other reasonable argument. Instead....you hedged your bets on the CRA. So, what is the "reasonable argument" you think applies to the CRA?
    No one advocating the CRA pretended that it was somehow actually saving people from government by governing them more.
    "The abiding purpose of every nationalist is to secure more power and more prestige, not for himself but for the nation or other unit in which he has chosen to sink his own individuality."
    -George Orwell, "Notes on nationalism"



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  3. #182
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    If the goal is to keep government out of business then I don't think that there's a reasonable argument for getting government more involved in business.


    "Government should be less involved in X but it can't be for some reason and also it needs to outlaw the thing that I don't like" is a common refrain here whenever there's some kind of government control which is... culturally appealing, let's say.

    The last time it was this popular was "government shouldn't be involved in marriage, but since it already does regulate marriage it needs to outlaw gay marriage."


    Exact same argument so far as I can tell.
    But of course you can see that some of us are saying, "Oh, good. A state put itself in a position where it now has no choice but oppose this weaponization of OSHA." You just don't want to talk about that aspect of it.
    "Stupidity got us into this mess. Why can't it get us out?"--Will Rogers

    "All I know is what I read in the newspapers, and that's an alibi for my ignorance."--Will Rogers

  4. #183
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    If the goal is to keep government out of business then I don't think that there's a reasonable argument for getting government more involved in business.


    "Government should be less involved in X but it can't be for some reason and also it needs to outlaw the thing that I don't like" is a common refrain here whenever there's some kind of government control which is... culturally appealing, let's say.

    The last time it was this popular was "government shouldn't be involved in marriage, but since it already does regulate marriage it needs to outlaw gay marriage."


    Exact same argument so far as I can tell.




    No one advocating the CRA pretended that it was somehow actually saving people from government by governing them more.
    Actually that's not true. The ulitmate reason Rand Paul gave for support for the CRA is that the Jim Crow laws created an environment that needed correcting. Yes he flip flopped on the issue. But his final position is correct. The Jim Crow system had a government and a pseudo government part. Ten years after Brown v Board of Education outlawed segregation you still had state mandated and terrorist mandated (KKK) segregation. And ultimately the goal is individual freedom.
    Last edited by jmdrake; 09-18-2021 at 07:25 AM.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  5. #184
    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post
    There isn't a reasonable argument for restricting private employers from compulsory vaccination.
    Oh, sure there is. If those private employers demand compulsory vaccination, and it results in a substantial number of unemployed men with nothing left to lose/ostracized from society, then widespread violence is much more likely to occur. It is reasonable to desire the avoidance of such an outcome.

    People intent on allowing society to "encourage" individuals to receive the vaccine by making the lives of those that refuse to take it more difficult are going to sow the wind and reap the whirlwind. If a point is reached that your endeavors have made life sufficiently intolerable for the unvaccinated, then you may suddenly find yourself hanged by one of those unvaccinated aware of what you support.



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  7. #185
    Quote Originally Posted by BSWPaulsen View Post
    People intent on allowing society to "encourage" individuals to receive the vaccine by making the lives of those that refuse to take it more difficult are going to sow the wind and reap the whirlwind. If a point is reached that your endeavors have made life sufficiently intolerable for the unvaccinated, then you may suddenly find yourself hanged by one of those unvaccinated aware of what you support.
    The same thing might be said of the unvaccinated -- as they continue to take up all the ICU beds such that people with other illnesses can't get proper care, they may find that the loved ones of those others in need might just sneak in and disconnect a few ventilators.
    We have long had death and taxes as the two standards of inevitability. But there are those who believe that death is the preferable of the two. "At least," as one man said, "there's one advantage about death; it doesn't get worse every time Congress meets."
    Erwin N. Griswold

    Taxes: Of life's two certainties, the only one for which you can get an automatic extension.
    Anonymous

  8. #186
    Quote Originally Posted by BSWPaulsen View Post
    Oh, sure there is. If those private employers demand compulsory vaccination, and it results in a substantial number of unemployed men with nothing left to lose/ostracized from society, then widespread violence is much more likely to occur. It is reasonable to desire the avoidance of such an outcome.

    People intent on allowing society to "encourage" individuals to receive the vaccine by making the lives of those that refuse to take it more difficult are going to sow the wind and reap the whirlwind. If a point is reached that your endeavors have made life sufficiently intolerable for the unvaccinated, then you may suddenly find yourself hanged by one of those unvaccinated aware of what you support.

    This Ron Paul Forums not Rick Santorum forums. Your argument is the same argument used for every nanny state policy that ever existed.

    Just fill in the blank. Drugs should be illegal because drug users will commit get violent. Online gambling should be illegal because people will easily their money and do bad things. Violent video games should be banned because people will be violent. Prostitution and porn should be banned because of whatever terrible thing happens because if them. Money should be redistributed to the poor because if it isn't they will commit crimes.

  9. #187
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    Hospitals existed without government.

    Caring for the sick and Injured has been a MORAL DUTY,, until recent times..

    You sound like a Eugenicist,,Just kill off the useless(whoever you deem them to be).
    And you sound like a Communist. From each according to their ability to each according to their need, amirite?

    The only moral duty of government is to protect property rights. No one has a moral claim on the goods and services of others. Free people voluntarily trading with one another is both moral and creates a horn of plenty. There is no right to health care.

  10. #188
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonny Tufts View Post
    The same thing might be said of the unvaccinated -- as they continue to take up all the ICU beds such that people with other illnesses can't get proper care, they may find that the loved ones of those others in need might just sneak in and disconnect a few ventilators.
    Are there more unvaccinated taking up hospital beds than unvaccinated with jobs?

    The vaccinated could unplug every single unvaccinated taking up an ICU bed and... the numbers would still be irrelevant to the issue.

    Try again.

  11. #189
    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post
    And you sound like a Communist. From each according to their ability to each according to their need, amirite?

    The only moral duty of government is to protect property rights. No one has a moral claim on the goods and services of others. Free people voluntarily trading with one another is both moral and creates a horn of plenty. There is no right to health care.
    You have no idea what the term "moral duty" means. It doesn't mean one that is coerced by the state but one that comes from conscience. Whether from our creator or through evolutionary biology, such moral duty has served our species well. And it predates communism by thousands of years. The story of the Good Samaritan is an example of moral duty.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  12. #190
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    You have no idea what the term "moral duty" means. It doesn't mean one that is coerced by the state but one that comes from conscience. Whether from our creator or through evolutionary biology, such moral duty has served our species well. And it predates communism by thousands of years. The story of the Good Samaritan is an example of moral duty.


    My view is the view is the view of the namesake of this site. Ron Paul wouldn't sure wouldn't say a hospital is practicing eugenics by denying service to people who can't pay because of choices they made. If you want to take the risk of no health insurance and buy a boat. That's fine. You should live with the consequences of taking that risk.

  13. #191
    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post

    The only moral duty of government is to protect property rights.
    I did not say it was a duty or even a function of Government YOU DAMN FOOL..

    It is a Moral duty of a Human.

    Hospitals were not established by govt,,

    they were built by Churches.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  14. #192
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    I did not say it was a duty or even a function of Government YOU DAMN FOOL..
    Of course that is what you mean. Otherwise you wouldn't have disagreed with what I said and called me a eugenicist. It fits in nicely with your views on usury in this thread and banning employers from requiring vaccination and drug tests.



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  16. #193
    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post
    Of course that is what you mean. .
    You don't get to tell me "What I Mean". you stupid $#@! Head.

    You are the one pushing Poison Shots that KILL People. A Eugenic Depopulation agenda.

    Phuck YOU.
    Last edited by pcosmar; 09-18-2021 at 04:13 PM.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  17. #194
    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post
    This Ron Paul Forums not Rick Santorum forums. Your argument is the same argument used for every nanny state policy that ever existed.

    Just fill in the blank. Drugs should be illegal because drug users will commit get violent. Online gambling should be illegal because people will easily their money and do bad things. Violent video games should be banned because people will be violent. Prostitution and porn should be banned because of whatever terrible thing happens because if them. Money should be redistributed to the poor because if it isn't they will commit crimes.
    The point of what I wrote is not that anything should be banned but rather that it is reasonable to ban it in light of what can reasonably be expected of the societal repercussions stemming from the potential consequences of vaccine mandates. This makes Montana's decision reasonable despite any disagreement you have with their reasoning. The result of this is that your claim that, "There isn't a reasonable argument..." is plainly false. There are reasonable arguments, but they are arguments you do not like. Nothing more, nothing less.

    The even broader point is that most of the unvaccinated do not care if the practice of employers mandating vaccines is banned.

  18. #195
    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post


    My view is the view is the view of the namesake of this site. Ron Paul wouldn't sure wouldn't say a hospital is practicing eugenics by denying service to people who can't pay because of choices they made. If you want to take the risk of no health insurance and buy a boat. That's fine. You should live with the consequences of taking that risk.
    Ron Paul also talked about how hospitals did chartiy work. That's based on a moral obligation. You are not representing his views.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  19. #196
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    Ron Paul also talked about how hospitals did chartiy work. That's based on a moral obligation. You are not representing his views.
    I am not misrepresenting what Ron says at all. He would disagree with nothing I said.

    But to make it easy so there is no more pointless arguing. Just put me down for what Ron says in the video. I agree 100% with Ron.

  20. #197
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    You don't get to tell me "What I Mean".
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    Ron Paul also talked about how hospitals did chartiy work. That's based on a moral obligation. You are not representing his views.
    This guy is obviously a lefty posing as one of us. He is acting in a way that lefties stereotype limited government people. He really sees us as heartless and he is playing his one dimensional libertarian very well. Don't react to his technique and get banned. He may not understand the compassion of a libertarian, but he knows how to push buttons.
    Last edited by RJB; 09-18-2021 at 05:18 PM.
    ...

  21. #198
    Quote Originally Posted by RJB View Post
    This guy is obviously a lefty posing as one of us.
    Always has been one,, and on the Authoritarian side of Fascism at that.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  22. #199
    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post
    I am not misrepresenting what Ron says at all. He would disagree with nothing I said.

    But to make it easy so there is no more pointless arguing. Just put me down for what Ron says in the video. I agree 100% with Ron.
    You are not in 100% agreement with Ron Paul.

    https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-...e-of-uninsured

    BLITZER: But Congressman, are you saying that society should just let him die?

    A few in the crowd hollered and at least a couple screamed, "Yeah."

    Paul responded, "No. I practiced medicine before we had Medicaid, in the early 1960s, when I got out of medical school. I practiced at Santa Rosa Hospital in San Antonio, and the churches took care of them. We never turned anybody away from the hospitals."


    What part of "We never turned anybody away from the hospitals" do you not understand? Ron Paul is clearly talking about a moral obligation as oposed to a legal obligation.
    Last edited by jmdrake; 09-18-2021 at 06:53 PM.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  23. #200
    I think it's very telling that hospitals are afraid to hand people termination letters, preferring instead to let employees leave, or even bully them into leaving, on their own volition.



    It's almost as if they're worried that in the future when/if the data clearly shows that having unvaccinated nurses was no more a risk to their workplace than vaccinated nurses, they're going to be inundated with wrongful-termination lawsuits.

    Personally if I were on a jury in a civil case like that, they'd be owning the hospital when the judge slaps his gavel down.
    Last edited by nobody's_hero; 09-18-2021 at 07:08 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    This is getting silly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    It started silly.
    T.S. Eliot's The Hollow Men

    Some of you still watch the news, and it shows.

    "One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors." - Plato

    We Are Running Out of Time - Mini Me



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  25. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonny Tufts View Post
    The same thing might be said of the unvaccinated -- as they continue to take up all the ICU beds such that people with other illnesses can't get proper care, they may find that the loved ones of those others in need might just sneak in and disconnect a few ventilators.
    Unvaccinated people are doing just fine.

    Vaccinated people are Far more likely to be in ICU. Blood clots, enlarged Hearts, Stroke, Miscarriage, and a Hyper-Immune Response, etc.etc.etc.

    and anyone on a Ventilator at this point is a clear victim of Malpractice.
    Last edited by pcosmar; 09-18-2021 at 09:47 PM.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  26. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Banana View Post
    Secede [... or] nullify, resist, and refuse to comply. There are no other solutions.
    THIS is the way:

    https://twitter.com/Zieleds/status/1442839776210522117

  27. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Banana View Post
    THIS is the way:

    https://twitter.com/Zieleds/status/1442839776210522117
    https://twitter.com/RealSpikeCohen/s...08381692293121



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