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Thread: What Ashli Babbit was doing the moment she got shot

  1. #121
    Former President Bush likens U.S. extremists to foreign terrorists

    Published Sat, Sep 11 2021
    Violent extremists in the United States and abroad are “children of the same foul spirit,” former President George W. Bush said in his speech commemorating the 20th anniversary of the September 11 terror attacks.
    In the speech, Bush likened domestic extremists to foreign terrorists who attacked the U.S. 20 years ago.
    “We have seen growing evidence that the dangers to our country can come not only across borders, but from violence that gathers within,” Bush said.
    “There’s little cultural overlap between violent extremists abroad and violent extremists at home,” he continued.
    The former president said domestic and foreign extremists share a “disdain for pluralism,” a “disregard for human life,” and a determination to defile national symbols, appearing to reference the January 6 Capitol riot.
    The former president had previously said that the Capitol riot left him “sick to his stomach” and said that he was “still disturbed” for weeks following the insurrection.
    Of the more than 500 people arrested in connection with the Capitol riot, dozens had links to U.S. extremist groups such as the Oathkeepers, Three Percenters and Proud Boys.



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  3. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    Massie wasn't alone either. He was with his staff. That said there's no telling how much help they would have been. From the video I can't tell how many people were with Byrd. But, and you keep ignoring this, I think a Spartan kick would have been enough. As for the violence of the specific group, they said they were violent. They told the police that other people had already gotten hurt and they didn't want them (the police) to get hurt. Two of the members of the violent mob were smashing the barricade, one with a helmet and the other with a wooden dowel about an inch in diameter. Remember the skateboard wielding thug that Kyle Rittenhouse shot? A one inch wooden dowel is at least as deadly as a skateboard.



    With a backpack? And Ashli Babbitt was the only woman I saw in the crowd. The next person through was most likely the man with the wooden dowel. And Byrd was the only person at the door at that time. I saw one maybe two other people further down the hall. From the best information that's been posted in this thread at this point the evacuation, which was still ongoing at 2:40, was not finished when Ashli Babbitt was killed at 2:44. So the other people that could have helped contain the breach were likely occupied. That's why those three cowards who "stood aside" shouldn't have left their post. They plus Byrd could have held the crowd back. Byrd could not have afforded to let Ashli Babbitt get through the window and then "deal with her", hoping that the next person to jump through the window wasn't the wooden dowel wielding thug who could have clocked Byrd in the back of the head while she was handcuffing Babbitt. That's why I keep saying (and you keep ignoring) SPARTAN KICK. That would have kept Babbitt on the other side of the barricade. He could have kept Spartan Kicking everyone who tried to come through. But I can't thing of anything else that would have worked. Even pepper spray might not have been enough because she could have kept her forward momentum going despite the pain and blindness. Taser? Maybe. But those have at most two shots.
    At minimum, he should have waited until at least her feet had hit the ground on the other side to shoot her.

    Which would have given him an ample amount of time to issue a clear and direct warning to Babbitt.

    Instead, he chose to shoot Babbitt the moment her head visibly appeared through the window. Which is indefensible.
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Trump Jr 2024!!!!

  4. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTexan View Post
    I've already said that 1 person (Himes) chose to stick around longer than others. But his egress route was never in question and he did evacuate once it started getting too close for comfort.

    I've also already said, that anyone who didn't evacuate (e.g., Massie) would have done so entirely by choice. Massie is not the type of congress critter that would be scared by a little interaction with the average MAGA crowd.

    As for sources, find your own... 0 $#@!s and all that, remember.
    The video on the link I just gave you showed nearly 50 people still in the House chamber at 2:40 and article time stamps Ashli Babbitt being shot at 2:44. Sorry but 4 minutes is just not enough time to get that many people all of the way out of the capital building. And even if 50 people were led out of the House Chamber and all of the way out of the capital building in 4 minutes, it's quite likely that Byrd wasn't aware of that. You mentioned Himes. Googling him this is what I found. At 1:37 he tweeted that he was in the House Chamber and police telling congress to don gas masks. Neither he nor his staff tweeted for the next 90 minutes. Then one of his staff tweeted that he was evacuated and safe.

    https://goodmorningwilton.com/himes-...of-the-nation/

    So from that timeline we have him out at least by 3:07. The key question is when was Babbitt shot. I've seen 2:44. But another source says she was shot some time before 3:15. 3:07 is before 3:15 but so is 2:44. I'm certain there were a lot of VIPs still in the capital building, and likely still in the house chamber, at 2:44.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  5. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTexan View Post
    At minimum, he should have waited until at least her feet had hit the ground on the other side to shoot her.

    Which would have given him an ample amount of time to issue a clear and direct warning to Babbitt.

    Instead, he chose to shoot Babbitt the moment her head visibly appeared through the window. Which is indefensible.
    Ummmm....no. Worst possible outcome. By that time other people would have been coming through, or already through, the window. At least one of them would have been armed with a club. When her body, not just her head, was in the window frame and halfway through he should have Spartan kicked her back through. Instead he shot her in the shoulder.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  6. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    So if you've barricaded yourself in your house, someone has smashed open your window, you show that person your gun, they climb through it anyway....you're going to wait until you can see him or her pull the weapon out of the backpack. And there is a violent mob behind him or her. Got it. I will say this. Byrd did a horrible job defending himself. That's why most lawyers tell their clients to just shut the F up. But no. This isn't the same as just "shooting through your front door." Ashli Babbitt was halfway through when she was shot. Still, she shouldn't have been shot. A Spartan Kick would have done just fine.
    Oh, my. You just learned a new term today. "Spartan kick." Please use it several more times.

  7. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowball View Post
    No, she deserved the bullet. They crossed the Rubicon. Watch again.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/inves...video-capitol/
    Strange your use of the term "crossing the Rubicon" as that applies to the Roman army and not to Roman civilians. And I've watched the video enough times to know what happened. While she was in the window frame she could have been kicked back through.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  8. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Oh, my. You just learned a new term today. "Spartan kick." Please use it several more times.
    And you've learned to be your regular ignore the facts self. Carry on.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  9. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    The video on the link I just gave you showed nearly 50 people still in the House chamber at 2:40 and article time stamps Ashli Babbitt being shot at 2:44. Sorry but 4 minutes is just not enough time to get that many people all of the way out of the capital building. And even if 50 people were led out of the House Chamber and all of the way out of the capital building in 4 minutes, it's quite likely that Byrd wasn't aware of that. You mentioned Himes. Googling him this is what I found. At 1:37 he tweeted that he was in the House Chamber and police telling congress to don gas masks. Neither he nor his staff tweeted for the next 90 minutes. Then one of his staff tweeted that he was evacuated and safe.

    https://goodmorningwilton.com/himes-...of-the-nation/

    So from that timeline we have him out at least by 3:07. The key question is when was Babbitt shot. I've seen 2:44. But another source says she was shot some time before 3:15. 3:07 is before 3:15 but so is 2:44. I'm certain there were a lot of VIPs still in the capital building, and likely still in the house chamber, at 2:44.
    I can't watch your original link as its behind a pay wall. I would consider it safe to assume that the vast majority of the 50 people you see are capitol police. And maybe Himes and perhaps a few other doucheholes who want to take selfies in gas masks for dramatic effect.

    All I can tell you is what I saw and heard on the live coverage. That the congress critters had been safely evacuated to the basement, and even that fact was supposed to be confidential. Most news sources you will find today will redact even the word basement and replace it with "secure location in the Capitol".
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Trump Jr 2024!!!!



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  11. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    Ummmm....no. Worst possible outcome. By that time other people would have been coming through, or already through, the window. At least one of them would have been armed with a club. When her body, not just her head, was in the window frame and halfway through he should have Spartan kicked her back through. Instead he shot her in the shoulder.
    It's a broken glass window. They aren't going to be jumping through that window very quickly.

    I've played enough zombie games to be pretty safe to say that if a broken window is the mob's only ingress, you're in pretty good shape.
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Trump Jr 2024!!!!

  12. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTexan View Post
    I can't watch your original link as its behind a pay wall. I would consider it safe to assume that the vast majority of the 50 people you see are capitol police. And maybe Himes and perhaps a few other doucheholes who want to take selfies in gas masks for dramatic effect.
    I've learned how to get around paywalls. Just turn of Javascript temporarily. But I'll try to find another source. They don't look like Capital Hill police to me.

    All I can tell you is what I saw and heard on the live coverage. That the congress critters had been safely evacuated to the basement, and even that fact was supposed to be confidential. Most news sources you will find today will redact even the word basement and replace it with "secure location in the Capitol".
    It's not surprising that the exact location of where they went has been redacted. Back to your watching the live coverage. When did you find out about the Ashli Babbitt shooting? Was she dead by the time you found out about it?
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  13. #131
    For the record, the hallway that Ashli Babbitt was trying to enter, is called "The Speaker's Lobby". It's directly connected to the House Chamber and tons of rooms.

    So, no, Byrd was not some lone soldier holding the crowd all by himself.

    There was a small army of capitol police in the House Chamber behind him, who could have backed him up if things got out of control.

    https://history.house.gov/Education/...e-Scenes-Tour/
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Trump Jr 2024!!!!

  14. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    It's not surprising that the exact location of where they went has been redacted. Back to your watching the live coverage. When did you find out about the Ashli Babbitt shooting? Was she dead by the time you found out about it?
    I learned about it within a few minutes of it happening. She was presumably still alive at that point but based on the video I saw I knew she would die from her injuries.
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Trump Jr 2024!!!!

  15. #133
    She gambled...... and lost.

    Lesson learned - If you're going to violently charge into the US Capitol, make damn sure your cause is worth dying for, and that you have a reasonable chance of success. Otherwise, it's just mental instability or suicide. The government has killed a whole helluva lot of people for less than she did.

    Just being pragmatic. May her soul rest in peace.
    "For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy ... Its preparations are concealed, not published. Its mistakes are buried not headlined. Its dissenters are silenced, not praised. No expenditure is questioned, no rumor is printed, no secret is revealed." - J.F.K.

  16. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTexan View Post

    I've also already said, that anyone who didn't evacuate (e.g., Massie) would have done so entirely by choice. Massie is not the type of congress critter that would be scared by a little interaction with the average MAGA crowd.

    As for sources, find your own... 0 $#@!s and all that, remember.
    Massie wasn't scared of those 92% peaceful rioters.

    GOP Rep. Thomas Massie ‘glad’ he was armed during Capitol siege
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/nypost....tol-siege/amp/


    NKY's Thomas Massie barricaded office, grabbed his gun after Trump's speech. 'My Spidey senses were going off.' https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cincinnati.com/amp/6586298002


    Kentucky Republican Rep. Thomas Massie says 'Trump is at fault' for deadly riot at Capitol
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.usa...amp/6611721002
    Last edited by Krugminator2; 09-11-2021 at 05:14 PM.

  17. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post
    Kentucky Republican Rep. Thomas Massie says 'Trump is at fault' for deadly riot at Capitol
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.usa...amp/6611721002
    Massie's earned enough credit with me to assume that these statements were taken out of context.

    If that is indeed genuinely how Massie feels about Jan 6 I would lose a great deal of respect for him.
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Trump Jr 2024!!!!

  18. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTexan View Post
    Massie's earned enough credit with me to assume that these statements were taken out of context.

    If that is indeed genuinely how Massie feels about Jan 6 I would lose a great deal of respect for him.
    What context were there? Here are the quotes.

    “I think Trump is at fault here,” Massie told The Dispatch. “I watched almost all of his speech. I felt like it was inevitable.”

    “People did mislead the folks that came here, and Trump was among them,” Massie said. “He insinuated that states wanted their electors thrown out, which was not true. I kept a spreadsheet of every document every state produced, and in no case did a majority of any legislature even put their name on the letter.”

    "His speech concerned me," Massie said. "He was posturing to the nation that if people did something, they could change the result of the election."


    The whole thing was based on a total lie. Trump lost. It wasn't like the rioters even had a virtuous cause. They are equals to Black Lives Matter rioters fighting for nothing.



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  20. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post
    What context were there? Here are the quotes.

    [FONT="]“I think Trump is at fault here,” Massie told [/FONT]The Dispatch[FONT="]. “I watched almost all of his speech. I felt like it was inevitable.”

    [/FONT]
    [FONT="]“People did mislead the folks that came here, and Trump was among them,” Massie said. “He insinuated that states wanted their electors thrown out, which was not true. I kept a spreadsheet of every document every state produced, and in no case did a majority of any legislature even put their name on the letter.”

    [/FONT]
    "His speech concerned me," Massie said. "He was posturing to the nation that if people did something, they could change the result of the election."


    The whole thing was based on a total lie. Trump lost. It wasn't like the rioters even had a virtuous cause. They are equals to Black Lives Matter rioters fighting for nothing.
    I suppose I'm just hoping that the source at the Dispatch wrote down the wrong name in the phone interview.

    It wouldn't be the first time a news article posted a complete fabrication.

    With that said, I'll take into consideration that these might be his genuine views.
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Trump Jr 2024!!!!

  21. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post
    Massie wasn't scared of those 92% peaceful rioters.

    GOP Rep. Thomas Massie ‘glad’ he was armed during Capitol siege
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/nypost....tol-siege/amp/


    NKY's Thomas Massie barricaded office, grabbed his gun after Trump's speech. 'My Spidey senses were going off.' https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cin...amp/6586298002


    Kentucky Republican Rep. Thomas Massie says 'Trump is at fault' for deadly riot at Capitol
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.usa...amp/6611721002
    Massie is entitled to his own opinions. I watched the speech and then everything else as the event progressed. I disagree with Massie. <shrug>

  22. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTexan View Post
    As far as violent threats go, it was pretty polite. "Guys, we've seen others get hurt, probably best if you step aside".

    We don't even know if that's a true statement "we've seen others get hurt".

    With that said, yes, it's an implicit threat, so while I wouldn't go as far as to call the mob "violent" I would definitely say they are "dangerous".

    And yes, the officers that stepped aside, are most likely cowards. Though it's also possible they were ordered to step aside through their ear pieces. They did seem to act in a fair amount of unison.

    It's entirely possible they stepped aside, because there was no longer anything beyond that barricaded that needed to be protected.
    Okay. I can accept that. They could have been bluffing. They could have been lying when they said "We've seen others get hurt." But that's a dangerous lie to tell. It was dangerous to themselves. When we're talking about the use of force either in defense of oneself or of others, all that matters is what's in the mind of the force user. If it's reasonable for me to believe that you have violent intent against myself or someone else, I have a right to act. It doesn't matter if you actually have violent intent or not nor does it matter if there's really someone behind me to protect or not as long as I have reason to believe there is.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTexan View Post
    It's a broken glass window. They aren't going to be jumping through that window very quickly.

    I've played enough zombie games to be pretty safe to say that if a broken window is the mob's only ingress, you're in pretty good shape.
    LOL at the zombie game reference. In the video in the OP the window was already clear of broken glass. Ashli Babbitt went from not being seen at second 26 to having her torso through the window at second 29. That means that in 2 to 5 seconds another protestor could have gotten through that window. I take it that when you play zombie games you're actually shooting the zombies?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTexan View Post
    For the record, the hallway that Ashli Babbitt was trying to enter, is called "The Speaker's Lobby". It's directly connected to the House Chamber and tons of rooms.

    So, no, Byrd was not some lone soldier holding the crowd all by himself.

    There was a small army of capitol police in the House Chamber behind him, who could have backed him up if things got out of control.

    https://history.house.gov/Education/...e-Scenes-Tour/
    Ummmm...no. There was not an "army of capital police." But, looking at this other video, we can see what looks like an army of congressional staffers and/or congressmen walking through that hallway just minutes before Ashli Babbitt tried to climb through the window and got shot.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/inves...video-capitol/

    At times 0:02 - 0:14 you can see the evacuees are still in the hallway. One of the congressmen, Rep. James P. McGovern, is identified in the video at time 0:11. At time 0:15 you see a dude with a hat with ear flaps and backpack purposefully shoulder bump the cop on the far left and then peek through the window. Note that he doesn't get shot. Then he raises his fist and starts punching the glass window shattering it. He still doesn't get shot. He punches the glass on the OTHER side of the cop. He still doesn't get shot. At time 0:29 there is an edit so I don't know how much time really passed. At time 0:33 the video highlights that this is indeed the door to the "Speaker's Lobby." At time 0:46 the video highlights Ashli Babbitt who is jumping up and down and yelling something at the cops on her side of the barricade. At time 1:36 the "shoulder to shoulder" cops leave. From that time to time 1:58 you see some members of the mob attempting to bust through the barricade. At time 1:59 you see a good view down the hall. It's almost empty. You can see Byrd's gun. There is one other person at the other end of the hallway on Byrd's side of the barricade. At time 2:05 you seen one other person 2/3rds of the way down the hall. I'm not sure if that's the same other person. But there's no "army of cops" on Byrd's side of the barricade. At time 2:16 Ashli Babbitt is shot.

    I wish I had access to the unedited version of this video so I could have a fully accurate timeline. I can't say for sure home much time passed between the time when you seen congressmen in the hallway of the Speaker's Lobby and Ashli Babbitt getting shot nor can I tell from this video how much time it was from when Byrd's gun was visible and Ashli's attempt to climb through the window. You said they went to the basement. How secure was the basement? From what you've described, the congressmen after they evacuated were still in the same building. Had they even gotten to the basement by that time? Was there another round of evacuees? Hard to tell. Was Byrd or anyone else given an "All clear?" Or was Byrd told in no uncertain terms "Don't let anybody through that barricade under any circumstances?" We don't know. And I agree that "I was just following orders" is no excuse. But if you're going by information that tells you the people you are sworn to protect aren't fully out yet then it's legitimate to go from that information and assume you are acting to save lives when you keep the barricade manned.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTexan View Post
    I learned about it within a few minutes of it happening. She was presumably still alive at that point but based on the video I saw I knew she would die from her injuries.
    Okay. I know this has been some months ago now and memories fade. But do you have an idea the time from when you perceived the capital was fully evacuated and you hearing about her being shot? Are we talking half an hour or a few minutes?
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  23. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    LOL at the zombie game reference. In the video in the OP the window was already clear of broken glass. Ashli Babbitt went from not being seen at second 26 to having her torso through the window at second 29. That means that in 2 to 5 seconds another protestor could have gotten through that window. I take it that when you play zombie games you're actually shooting the zombies?
    Plenty of time to issue a warning.

    How long does it take to say "Freeze or I'll shoot"?? That's basically the bare minimum standard before shooting anyone who isn't directly pointing a gun at someone.


    Ummmm...no. There was not an "army of capital police." But, looking at this other video, we can see what looks like an army of congressional staffers and/or congressmen walking through that hallway just minutes before Ashli Babbitt tried to climb through the window and got shot.
    It looks like an army of capitol police to me. White guys with bald heads = security detail / secret services.

    And the people in that hallway, I have no way to prove it to you, but I know for a fact that they were loitering. They had a clear egress route if they chose to take it.


    You said they went to the basement. How secure was the basement? From what you've described, the congressmen after they evacuated were still in the same building.
    It's a system of tunnels that interconnect. Plus a subway system. There were protestors that made it down there but they were under control. Protestors in the subway were on the floor with hands on their heads.

    Pure speculation - they were probably evacuated to the Dunkin Donuts that is in the tunnels 1 building over. Because several of them likely needed latte's at this point.

    Had they even gotten to the basement by that time? Was there another round of evacuees? Hard to tell.
    What I can tell you, based on the live coverage at the time, was that the basement was secure. It's extraordinarily unlikely that the Speaker's Lobby and subway would both be secure but the route between them would not be. In other words - the egress route from the Speaker's Lobby was secure.

    Also, the tunnel system is quite sizable. It's not like they were out of room down there.


    Was Byrd or anyone else given an "All clear?" Or was Byrd told in no uncertain terms "Don't let anybody through that barricade under any circumstances?" We don't know. And I agree that "I was just following orders" is no excuse. But if you're going by information that tells you the people you are sworn to protect aren't fully out yet then it's legitimate to go from that information and assume you are acting to save lives when you keep the barricade manned.
    No clue, doesn't change anything for me. The people who he is sworn to protect, do not have additional rights that you and I do not have, just because they are Congress critters.

    Ask yourself, if Byrd was private security at a coin collecting convention, and there was an angry mob outside who apparently had been cheated out of expensive coins or whatever and was making their way through, and Byrd shot Ashli Babbitt in otherwise the exact same situation:

    What would the media reaction would have been?

    Okay. I know this has been some months ago now and memories fade. But do you have an idea the time from when you perceived the capital was fully evacuated and you hearing about her being shot? Are we talking half an hour or a few minutes?
    It was about half an hour between the evacuations starting and Ashli Babbitt being shot.

    The evacuation I remember happening very quickly. It couldn't have been more than 15 minutes. Any non-police stragglers that remained were just loitering at that point.
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Trump Jr 2024!!!!

  24. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTexan View Post
    Plenty of time to issue a warning.

    How long does it take to say "Freeze or I'll shoot"?? That's basically the bare minimum standard before shooting anyone who isn't directly pointing a gun at someone.
    Do you not consider visibly pointing a gun at someone for a period of time before you shoot to be a warning? I definitely heard someone yell "He's got a gun!" Yet...for no explicable reason, Ashli Babbitt proceeded to climb through the window anyway.

    It looks like an army of capitol police to me. White guys with bald heads = security detail / secret services.
    One of them was positively ID'd as a congressman. I'm sure there were security with them though.

    And the people in that hallway, I have no way to prove it to you, but I know for a fact that they were loitering. They had a clear egress route if they chose to take it.
    Maybe. If the people you've been told to protect are being stupid and wasting time that doesn't diminish your duty to protect them. So I'll take your word for it. The congress critters and the security detail with them were loitering.

    It's a system of tunnels that interconnect. Plus a subway system. There were protestors that made it down there but they were under control. Protestors in the subway were on the floor with hands on their heads.
    That's helpful to know. So Byrd was the outer ring of security and protestors made it all the way to the inner ring. Glad they were handled without getting shot. That's possible the reason there was at most 2 other security people in the hallway with Byrd. The rest had gone to the tunnels where the other protestors had already broken through.

    Pure speculation - they were probably evacuated to the Dunkin Donuts that is in the tunnels 1 building over. Because several of them likely needed latte's at this point.
    Possibly. 'Merica runs on Dunkin.

    What I can tell you, based on the live coverage at the time, was that the basement was secure. It's extraordinarily unlikely that the Speaker's Lobby and subway would both be secure but the route between them would not be. In other words - the egress route from the Speaker's Lobby was secure.
    Okay. So by secure you mean protestors has breached the perimeter but were under control? Which means the "security" could have been overwhelmed by more numbers? Or secure meaning that there was a secure inner perimeter with no protestors?

    Also, the tunnel system is quite sizable. It's not like they were out of room down there.
    Okay.

    No clue, doesn't change anything for me. The people who he is sworn to protect, do not have additional rights that you and I do not have, just because they are Congress critters.
    I agree. No additional rights. Just the basic right to protection from bodily harm that anyone would have. Which brings us back to @Snowball's point. The mob Ashli Babbitt was with posed a threat to that right. Maybe the threat was minimal. Maybe they were bluffing. But there was still a threat. That's something I can't deny at this point. I do think the threat could have been contained without deadly force but only if enough force could have been used to prevent Ashli or anyone else from coming through the breach in the barricade.

    Ask yourself, if Byrd was private security at a coin collecting convention, and there was an angry mob outside who apparently had been cheated out of expensive coins or whatever and was making their way through, and Byrd shot Ashli Babbitt in otherwise the exact same situation:

    What would the media reaction would have been?
    You seriously have to ask that? A coin collecting convention? Like...people who are into real money? Don't you think there's likely a large overlap between such people and MAGA folks? I think the reaction would be exactly the same. Most of the media would be like "meh." Tucker Carlson would be freaking out like he has over Ashli Babbitt. Interestingly enough when George Floyd was killed Tucker was all "Don't rush to judgement. Let's wait to find out all of the facts. What was Floyd doing right before he was put on the ground?" I haven't seen Tucker do that kind of analysis with Ashli Babbitt. On the other hand, the left wing media has been all Tucker Carlson when it comes to this situation. Those who argued that the cop who saved the life of the black woman in pink by shooting another black woman who was about to stab her (Ma'Kai Bryant) should have at first tried to "de-escalate" the situation (no explanation on how to do that) have been almost congratulatory over Ashli Babbitt's death. So you'll always find media rooting for the cops and rooting for the victims in these situations and it always comes down to politics. There should be a systematic and dispassionate way to evaluate police shootings.

    It was about half an hour between the evacuations starting and Ashli Babbitt being shot.

    The evacuation I remember happening very quickly. It couldn't have been more than 15 minutes. Any non-police stragglers that remained were just loitering at that point.
    Okay. From Himes tweet the evacuation still hadn't started at 1:37. If we say it started at 1:45, an hour later would be 2:45 and an hour and a half later would be 3:15. I have one source that said Babbitt was shot at 2:44 and another that she was shot sometime before 3:15. I'll see if I can find a full timestamp video of the evacuation itself.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  25. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    Do you not consider visibly pointing a gun at someone for a period of time before you shoot to be a warning?
    The gun certainly wasn't visible to Babbitt. There was no way for her to have seen Byrd or his gun.

    I definitely heard someone yell "He's got a gun!" Yet...for no explicable reason, Ashli Babbitt proceeded to climb through the window anyway.
    Okay but that does not excuse Byrd for not issuing a freeze command.

    Everyone understands "freeze". Or even "hands up", or "don't move". All are extraordinarily well understood to mean that you're getting shot if you don't comply.

    And the guy who yelled "he's got a gun" was most likely the same person holding the camera, so his voice would be clearly audible on his video but there's no reason to believe that Babbitt even heard that.

    You seriously have to ask that? A coin collecting convention?
    Yes, I seriously have to ask that.

    I strongly suspect the reaction would have been at least moderately different, if Byrd was protecting a coin convention, instead of The Church.

    The rest had gone to the tunnels where the other protestors had already broken through.
    It's not clear if the protestors had broken through to the tunnels or if that's just where they were being held.

    Okay. So by secure you mean protestors has breached the perimeter but were under control? Which means the "security" could have been overwhelmed by more numbers? Or secure meaning that there was a secure inner perimeter with no protestors?
    Secure meaning it's pretty unlikely that even if Byrd's barricade fell, that the security perimeter downstairs would have been breached in any meaningful way.
    Last edited by TheTexan; 09-12-2021 at 12:05 AM.
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Trump Jr 2024!!!!

  26. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTexan View Post
    The gun certainly wasn't visible to Babbitt. There was no way for her to have seen Byrd or his gun.

    Okay but that does not excuse Byrd for not issuing a freeze command.

    Everyone understands "freeze". Or even "hands up", or "don't move". All are extraordinarily well understood to mean that you're getting shot if you don't comply.

    And the guy who yelled "he's got a gun" was most likely the same person holding the camera, so his voice would be clearly audible on his video but there's no reason to believe that Babbitt even heard that.

    Ummm...okay. Babbitt moves around the room from one of the videos I've seen and at one point she should have been able to see the gun. Maybe she didn't see it, but I don't buy that there was no way she saw it. And if we accept that it's possible that Babbitt didn't hear someone on her side of the barricade yell "He's got a gun" then it's possible that Byrd yelled "Freeze" or even "Don't come through that window" and it just didn't get picked up by the camera mic.

    Yes, I seriously have to ask that.

    I strongly suspect the reaction would have been at least moderately different, if Byrd was protecting a coin convention, instead of The Church.
    Okay. I think if Trump had gotten elected and BLM had stormed "the church" the media reaction would be what you're expecting from the coin convention scenario. In other words it's not the "where" that's as important as the "who." The cops who beat Kelly Thomas to death weren't protecting the capital building. They were just beating up some white homeless guy on the streets of L.A. But...I could be wrong.

    It's not clear if the protestors had broken through to the tunnels or if that's just where they were being held.
    Gotcha.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  27. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    That's true. He shouldn't. But he should be able to use the appropriate amount of force to save lives. It was NOT and execution. Ashli Babbitt wasn't just sitting there peeking through a window. She was climbing through a barricade that her fellow compatriots were trying to smash through. As @Snowball rightly pointed out, the crowd posed a potential real risk to whoever was on the other side of the barricade. I think pepper spray or simply a well placed front kick to her chest "This Is Sparta" style would have done the trick though. But it's not honest to call it an execution.
    Then I'll call it a murder. No way an officer should shoot into a crowd like that.
    "I shall bring justice to Westeros. Every man shall reap what he has sown, from the highest lord to the lowest gutter rat. They have made my kingdom bleed, and I do not forget that."
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  29. #145

  30. #146
    Babbitt shooting internal police docs reveal 'no good reason for shooting,' according to Judicial Watch
    The documents show witnesses recount they did not see Babbitt holding a weapon


    https://www.foxnews.com/us/documents...capitol-police

    14 Oct 2021

    More than 500 pages of internal documents from DC Metropolitan Police concerning the fatal shooting of Ashli Babbitt in the Capitol on Jan. 6 reveal witness accounts stating she was not holding a weapon at the time of her death and how "upset" the officer was after shooting her.

    "These previously secret records show there was no good reason to shoot and kill Ashli Babbitt," stated Tom Fitton, president of Judicial Watch, which obtained the documents through a May 2021 FOIA lawsuit. "The Biden-Garland Justice Department and the Pelosi Congress have much to answer for the over the mishandling and cover-up of this scandalous killing of an American citizen by the U.S. Capitol Police."
    Last edited by Anti Federalist; 10-16-2021 at 06:26 AM.
    "Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid." - Valery Legasov

  31. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    Babbitt shooting internal police docs reveal 'no good reason for shooting,' according to Judicial Watch
    The documents show witnesses recount they did not see Babbitt holding a weapon


    https://www.foxnews.com/us/documents...capitol-police

    More than 500 pages of internal documents from DC Metropolitan Police concerning the fatal shooting of Ashli Babbitt in the Capitol on Jan. 6 reveal witness accounts stating she was not holding a weapon at the time of her death and how "upset" the officer was after shooting her.

    "These previously secret records show there was no good reason to shoot and kill Ashli Babbitt," stated Tom Fitton, president of Judicial Watch, which obtained the documents through a May 2021 FOIA lawsuit. "The Biden-Garland Justice Department and the Pelosi Congress have much to answer for the over the mishandling and cover-up of this scandalous killing of an American citizen by the U.S. Capitol Police."

    Just cops doing the job they were actually hired to do, i.e. keep the rabble (that's us) in line. Nothing to see here. Move along now.
    Chris

    "Government ... does not exist of necessity, but rather by virtue of a tragic, almost comical combination of klutzy, opportunistic terrorism against sitting ducks whom it pretends to shelter, plus our childish phobia of responsibility, praying to be exempted from the hard reality of life on life's terms." Wolf DeVoon

    "...Make America Great Again. I'm interested in making American FREE again. Then the greatness will come automatically."Ron Paul

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